Worst greeen by a great architect...

[Bob_Huntley]

Has there ever been a more ghastly green than Pete Dye's  original 14th hole at the Carmel Valley Ranch in California?

It had about five or six tiers cascading down about forty feet from top to bottom.

I once saw a kid doing his thing on a mountain bike and having the time of his life, it was  the only time I ever saw anyone enjoying the creation.  

[Mike Benham]

Bob -

I know it is not ghastly but I dare say that if the Good Doctor built the green on the 16th at Pasatiempo today, he may be laughed out of the GCA Hall of Fame ...

Mike

[Evan_Green]

As possibly implied by your comment Mike, Mackenzie never intended for the greens as Pasatiempo to be as fast as they are today. With slower green speeds as there should be at Pasatiempo, the 16th green is as good as it gets in my opinion- in its current state, I think it is still one of the great green complexes in golf - i would just like to see the greens there a bit slower as many of the greens were never designed for such fast green speeds.

[JakaB]

One green that doesn't ring my bell is the 6th at Riviera....

[Peter Galea]

The story I heard on the 14th at Carmel Valley Ranch is that while walking the site, Johnny Pott, the pro, Ernie Vossler, of Landmark and Dye each wanted the green in a different spot.
Dye gave it some thought and built it in all three.
It was always fun to putt for drinks after play of the hole was finished (4 wood-sand wedge). The serpentine green was only 22 feet deep and 60-100 yards long.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob- It must really be bad. I have golfed there at least three times and I don't recall the green at all.

[Sean McCue]

John B.

You have got to be kidding me the 6Th at Riviera.  That green is one of the best ever designed.  No matter where you are on the green, the contours allow you a chance to get the ball reasonably close to the hole.  If all else fails break out the sand wedge and flop it over the bunker.  Better make sure you pick it clean. Actually only the tour pro's are allowed to do this, not allowed for regular play by members.

[GeoffreyC]

Bob

The 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th and 10th greens at Bethpage Black are in my opinion the worst greens on a "great" course that I am aware.  They are flat lifeless pancakes at anything but US Open speeds and I find it difficult to believe that Tillinghast ever intended them to play in that manner.  I happily give Burbeck credit for them. Those greens and the lack of a truly great short par 4 (#2 could be with a better green complex) are all that is keeping BB from being at the top of the world with the Pine Valley's, Cypress Point's etc.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bob

The 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th and 10th greens at Bethpage Black are in my opinion the worst greens on a "great" course that I am aware.  They are flat lifeless pancakes....

#5, #6, and #10 do have some slope to them (mostly back to front).  I remember having putts from the back of #5 and #10 that were downhillers.

I agree with #2, though.  It was the only table-top flat green I'd ever experienced until playing several at Couer d'Alene Resort course two months ago.

[GeoffreyC]

Scott

I've played those greens 60 times or more.  They are flat and no small amount of tilt will ever make a player worry about going long. The back section of #1 is also flat as can be and the old 18 was as well.

[JakaB]

John B.

You have got to be kidding me the 6Th at Riviera.  That green is one of the best ever designed.  No matter where you are on the green, the contours allow you a chance to get the ball reasonably close to the hole.  If all else fails break out the sand wedge and flop it over the bunker.  Better make sure you pick it clean. Actually only the tour pro's are allowed to do this, not allowed for regular play by members.

How can a green that is allowed to be played one way by touring pros and another less interesting way by the members be a good design.....It is a gimmick that gets a free pass because it is a classic gimmick...could this be the only hole in golf where a player in mandated to use or not use certain clubs.....can you putt with a utility wood over or though the bunker....is it only wedges that are not allowed.

[Bob_Huntley]

John B., Sean and Adam,

Riviera's 6th... a superb hole, I aced it.

As for not using a wedge on the hole and being forbidden to do so by management, forget it. Dean Martin, with a couple of dollars on the line, whopped one over the bunker to save par and said something like  "So sue me."

Adam, Pete Dye came back and made some alterations to his original design for $1.00. The 14th is now a respectable hole.

[Sean McCue]

John B.

The point you are missing about the green is that there are many options as to how you play your shot once you are on the green.  Weather you are allowed to use a wedge for evey day play is irrelevant.  Thomas's supremely crafted contours allow you to get the ball close enough to the hole to still make par.  The other thing to think about and i mean " think about" Standing on the tee look at the pin and know were not to miss it.  After all the hole is only 142 yards from the member tee and 170 yards from the back.  This is truely one of the great short par three's.  

[Rick Shefchik]

With all due respect, I don't think Barney's point about members not being allowed to use a wedge on Riviera's 6th green is irrelevant at all. If you are going to celebrate a green for its uniqueness and the options it presents, it seem extremely relevent to me that one of those options is denied to the dues-paying shlubs.

We have scalloped, or if you will, potato chip-shaped greens at my home course. Sometimes a wedge is the best option to get from certain locations on the green to the hole. If the course/architect did not want me to use this option, they should not have built the green that way. Not having played it (but having seen it on TV often enough), I say Riviera #6 is a great green if I can use a wedge when needed, and goofy if I can't.

[jim_lewis]

I doubt that many consider Jack Nicklaus a great architect, but his ninth green at the Country Club of Castle Pines is the worst green I have ever seen. At least it was when I was a member there in the early nineties, and I don't think it has been improved. I once had a conversation with Ron Whitten during which he asked me where I played. When I mentioned CCCP, he remarked, "you mean the course with the terrible 9th green."  The hole is a short par 4, which requires a fairway wood or long iron to lay up to the base of a steep hill leaving a wedge staight up the hill to a green that is so blind that they have to put a second flag on the hill behind the green so you have some idea where the hole location is.  The green is a punchbowl-like design, which has slopes so severe that the only shots that stay on the green wind up on the back right. If the pin is there, you have a short birdie putt. Otherwise, a two-putt is extremely difficult.  Even with a wedge, the best way to hit the green is to bounce off a steep slope left of the green. It is virtually impossible to get near a front pin.

When I served on the green committee there, we tried to have the green changed. Jim Engh, who was also on the committee, offered to do the redesign for free. He was turned down. The problem was that Nicklaus would not agree to any change and any change made without his agreement would result in the club not being able to claim it was a Nicklaus "signature course".  He finally agreed to send Jim Lipe out and some changes were made. Unfortunately, the club chose to do the work in house, and I don't think it turned out too well.

I have not played the course in about 9 years. I would love to have someone tell me that the green has been improved. I know Jim lipe visits this site occasionally. Maybe he can correct anything I have reported that is inaccurate.

By the way, other than that hole, I really liked the course. Everytime I played it, I would stand and try to figure how I would re-design the hole if allowed. I never could come up with a good idea other than making it a par three and locating the green at the bottom of the hill. That would have resulted in 5 par threes, which the club didn't want, and there was no way to stretch one of the other par 3's into a par 4.

Incidently, at the time Jim Engh was a relatively unknown architect, and the club management did not trust him to re-design the hole. Only a few years later he won "best new private' with a course a mile or so up the road.

[Tom_Doak]

I was not sure whether to hope I made this list, or not.

But Mr. Huntley chose the all-time example.  End of discussion.

[Jeff Fortson]

Seeing as I don't want to get too heavily involved in this discussion, I'll keep it simple.

Members are not allowed to use anything but a putter on the 6th green at Riviera for maintenance reasons.  We are trying to avoid massive divots from appearing.  You know the kinds of divots that would appear if JakaB were to attempt to flop a 60 degree wedge from the front right portion of the green (where his weak slice ended up) to the back left portion where the pin would inevitably be.

During the Nissan Open the tour players are allowed to use any club they like on the 6th green since they have the skill to hit a proper shot that would most likely do minimal damage.

The rule rarely affects normal play and in nearly every circumstance you can get the ball close using your putter anyway.  

Gimmick hole..... I think not.

The 6th green is the only hole I've ever played with a hazard in the middle of it.  It is so good that I think others haven't tried it for one of two reasons.  #1... Maybe architects fear copying a green and being labeled unoriginal.....  or #2... Maybe Thomas was so good that he made an idea work that others haven't dared try out of fear of it failing.

JakaB, why haven't others tried it?  Fear?  Lack of talent?  Lack of originality?  I don't know, maybe you can enlighten us with your genius.  I'd spend lots of your BBGE (or whatever its called) money on trying to figure it out.

The 6th green at Riviera is a masterpiece and few are on par with it.  If you were to nominate a green at Riviera to be the worst (which I think there are no bad ones) then I'd say #11.


Jeff F.

[Paul_Turner]

I actually don't think Harry Colt built this green...but it is pretty outrageous (not necessarily bad).