[TEPaul]

Tripp:

I agree with you, any difference between those two photos regarding the shoulder coming in from the left may be hard to determine, and that area is certainly compounded by the shadows. But the entire back on the right and the entire far right side on that black and white photo is much higher and far less sloped than the recent photo. That can't have anything to do with the photo angle as both photo angles seem to be virtually from the same place. I can't see the differences in those photos could possibly be evolution or maintenance either! Those two photos show far too much difference in that area for that to seem plausible.

Somethng had to have happened to that green, particularly on the right and the back between that black and white and the recent photo. But even if what happened can't be determined, so what? There's that black and white photo of Strong's green! Why don't you just restore the green to that using that photo and using something on it to scale it to do the work? If you did that (raise the back and right to the way it is in that black and white photo) I think that unused greenspace area would tie back in (horizontally) to the way that green used to be and you'll have solved the pinnability and playability problem on #16 green!

[George Pazin]

I was thinking about the generic softening of green contours last night and it really dawned on me what a humorous paradox  this type of situation is:

Golfers feel the course is unplayable and unfair at high green speeds. So they seek to have slope/contour removed to, in effect, slow down the high speed greens they desire! These golfers want the course to be "harder" in their minds and their buddies' minds - after all, aren't fast greens the "hardest"? - and yet in reality they want the course to play easier!

Sad.

[TEPaul]

George:

I don't know how much golf you've played but any really good player will tell you that both the physics and dynamics of golf is truly a matter of opposites.

[blasbe1]

golfers looking to join a golf club are heading towards Old Westbury (great job by Ken Dye on the Overlook and Bluegrass nines along with a reworking of Gil Hanse's work on the Woods nine) or Glen Oaks, Pine Hollow or Fresh Meadow.
 

Jeff,

I've been away for the past 2 weeks, kudos at redirecting this thread that has turned out to be very informative and exactly the reason why I transitioned from review reader to discussion group poster a couple of years ago.  

In response to your above statement, I would suggest in Field of Dreams form that "if you build it, they will come."

In fact, a couple of the courses at the clubs you mentioned quite underwhelmed me when I played them, so I think a lot of what drives club (including course) reputation is social status, or perceived social status.  I believe this phenomina can be observed at both Jewish and Gentile clubs, but your point about a limited market available to Engineers is  accurate albeit slightly overstated.  

For instance, I happen to be among a small minority of gentiles at a predominantly Jewish club and have my reasons for being there, the first and foremost is the course that I simply love, which is the result of the membership's decision to build future of the club around a great (IMO) revived classic course.  Yes, we still have all the other things but if you stripped it all away and gave me a sandwich in a brown bag after the round, I would be just as happy if the course continues to improve.  

I hope that we see a trend toward focusing more on course quality and less on the non-golfing accompaniments.   It sounds to me like Engineers may be thinking of golf first (or very close thereto).  

From what I've observed, my generation ("Generation X") and those after mine are less interested in the "full service" aspect that you mentioned and more interested, hopefully and IMO, in a great golf course.  I would go to the ends of the earth for a great course and if Engineers revives what I've always thought to be a potentially world class course through this project, their membership should benefit directly.  

My mantra for the day . . . Golf before Quiche!  (Although I do enjoy a good Quiche)
   

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