World 100- Banff?

[Steve_Roths]

After recently looking through the World 100 list I wonder why Banff isn't part of it when you have course like Kauri Cliffs and Torrey Pines inlcuded. Does anyone that has played Banff think it should be ranked above these other two?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Steve,

Absolutely!

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong... but I think for a number of years Banff suffered from poor conditioning. Still, it's very difficult to maintain a golf course in "excellent condition" in that environment. So, undoubtedly, some raters who aren't impressed with the condition vote negatively.

Same goes for Jasper and Highlands Links, I imagine. Which is why St. George's usually ranks ahead. It's easier to keep a golf course in good shape for a longer period throughout the season in Toronto than it is in the mountains of Alberta or at Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

Some may disagree, but I also think Banff suffers from imfamous change of sequenence. It's a much more dramatic round of golf beginning at the original first and finishing in the shadow of the hotel.  

That's my .02  

[NAF]

This post is funny as I emailed Ran about this today to see if the course was in his top 100.. I won't reveal his answer   but it is in my top 100 easily and I know Ran may be a bigger fan than I...

I was really impressed, it is an all world experience. I would add more except to say my fiance was so enamored with the area she wants to return annually or biannually and I could easily enjoy my summer rounds there during a holiday!

[Steve_Roths]

Actually, Highland Links is in the World 100.  Let's hope that they give Banff another look.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Without any bias, there are three Canadian courses that undoubtedly deserve to be included in the World Top-100: Highlands Links, St. George's, and Hamilton.

Banff, Jasper, and Capilano are the other three considerations.

[Rick]

I've played Banff numerous times having grown up in Calgary but I've only played it once in the last 10 years due to the re-routing. The start and the finish of the course used to be exhilirating - now pretty humdrum.

The course had been in pretty poor shape for a number of years. A multi-million dollar refurbishing, a new watering system and elk fences apparently have improved course conditioning considerably.  

I've played a total of 398 courses world wide. Highland Links rated #36 in my books. Banff rates #121. But I'm a strange guy... it could be top 100 in the world to others.

[Robert Thompson]

In my opinion, in Canada the one course that's missing is Hamilton. Great land, great par threes. Held up wonderfully at the Open.

Robert

[Tom_Doak]

Robert and Jeff:

I actually vote on the list, and while I do vote for St. George's and Highlands Links, I cannot quite find room for Hamilton in my top 100.  I did not vote for Torrey Pines, but there are some other courses which aren't in the list which I like better than Hamilton.

Unfortunately I have still not played Banff or Jasper so I can't cast a vote on them either way.  Banff has always had some support, but when I was adding up the results it always finished around 125-150.  I think it suffered because of conditioning, and because the routing was in flux for several years while they added nine holes.  Don't forget ... the GCA tour group did not see it the way that others do.

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: Interesting thoughts on Hamilton. I actually see it as a superior course to St. George's, which is outstanding, but does have some average holes.
I think Hamilton, given its property, with the elevation shifts and shot values, certainly rivals Highlands and St. G. The bunkering could be redone, but I don't see any other real failings. The par threes are outstanding.

That said, St. George's, since the bunker reno, is fantastic, minus the green on the third hole.

I know you're on the world panel, which leads me to a question. I just don't see why Oakland Hills, for example, is considered great, while Hamilton doesn't make the list?

I actually don't think Oakland Hills (just as an example) is as strong as Hamilton in either the architecture or overall playability. Hamilton has great greens and shot values -- while Oakland Hills, has, well, great greens. Oh, and some US Opens, which can't be undervalued.

You toured Hamilton with Lorne, right? Might be worth a visit (even with your crazy schedule) to see it and St. George's again.

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I can understand you're opinion of Hamilton. Because, I probably make the mistake of "seeing through the mess" per se.

I didn't think as highly of Hamilton until I really studied the course in detail, in conjunction with Colt's original plans, and historic photos. At present, the bunkers have lost their original look, and bite. Several greens have been rebuilt/moved in awkward fashion. And changes made in the area of holes 15 and 16, when Robbie Robinson added his nine-hole course, have really taken away from Hamilton's original brilliance, I think.

Properly restored, I think the course could crack World Top-50.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob,

Interesting comparison between Oakland Hills, which ranks pretty high on the World list, and Hamilton. For my money... I'd take Hamilton (with a bit of restorative-based work!), everyday, over Oakland Hills.  

[peter_p]

Timely post, Banff is at the top of my most underrated list, despite the routing change. Solid holes. Little letup, mistakes usually cost you a stroke, but it doesn't feel penal. If raters took their wives along, guaranteed a top 100 spot. I can't improve on Ran's course review.

Absolutely must be included as a golf destination. Sorry it took nearly twenty years to make the trip.

As for the routing, the club could let select groups tee off on 15 using the shuttle and integrate them at the first tee. I think it would speed up play.

[Robert Thompson]

Not a knock on Peter, Ran or anyone, but I always find it funny that people come to Canada, play something like Banff and then act surprised at the quality of the golf.
I often wonder if more people (ie, our friends to the south) saw Highlands, Banff, Jasper, Capliano, Hamilton, Toronto and the National, whether they would leave thinking Canada has lots of great golf.
I don't actually think Banff is in the top 10 courses in Canada -- though it is very good. If you like Banff, you'd be blown away by St. George's, Highlands, Westmount and the like.
Oh well....

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob... which leads us back to what we were working on months ago, right? An "In My Opinion" piece about golf architecture in Canada, co-authored by me, Rob, Ian Andrew, and Ben Dewar.

If we ever get around to it, you guys might enjoy the piece... and the photos

Problem is, Morrissett doesn't pay enough  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Banff has always been in my top 10 in Canada and I think it is brilliant.

For the past few years I have been on the bandwagon, saying that the rerouting really hurt the golf course. Having played the course in July in both the original and current configurations, I do not see the golf course being hurt that much. Sure the finish is not into the hotel, but the current 18 is more dynamic and in the current configuration you get the worst hole out of the way first, without having to hit your best shot out of the blocks. I think anybody that holds the current routing against the course and has not played the original configuration is doing a disservice.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ben,

I agree. Golfers shouldn't hold the current sequence "against" the course. In fact, most probably aren't even aware that it's a new sequence these days.

Still, starting in the shadow of the Banff Springs Hotel, then returning with the out and back routing is pretty awesome - somewhat like St. Andrews. I'd find it hard to believe Stanley Thompson didn't think the same.

I'm sure if you had the deciding vote, you'd cast it to return the original sequence [despite the gun I'd be holding to your head, buddy!].  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tommy D - I will stop speaking of golf arch forever if you visit Banff, play from the original routing, have a clear brilliant day and don't walk away feeling this is 1-100 World material.

JC

[Paul_Turner]

My Dad walked it last week and thought it would get a "dumb blonde" award in Doak's book!

[henrye]

Paul, regardless of what your father thought, or how Tom Doak might score it, I haven't heard any criticism from the group who recently visited the place.  In fact I have heard just the opposite.

In my opinion, the course is a brilliant layout in a magical setting.  St. George's, The National - you can have them.  I'll take Banff any day.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am curious why Jasper is not ahead of Banff. I like Banff but love Jasper. I am wondering what the group who went there in July thought.

[A_Clay_Man]

JB- I can't speak for the group but I too thought JP was a slightly better course. The experience we had with the original routing @ Banff could not have been beaten. But, in my final analysis, JP had the variety and flow that only a few courses can hope to have. Banff was more visceral enducing due to the setting and the golf was fabulous, just somewhat toned down on the greens, and repetitively narrow and penal for a sprayer like myself.

What's fascinating is how close they are in analysis, but how completly different they are, as golf courses.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Dumb Blond!?  Spare me.

We will split hairs forever on what is better - Banff or Jasper.  My esteemed friend and expert analyst, Adam Clayman, prefers JP over Banff.  I prefer Banff over JP.  Neither of us is wrong and we are both right.  Adam makes an excellent defense for his preference which deserves to be listened to.

But as a whole story, Banff is the creme de la creme.  Rick Holland put it so well.  "How can't you think Banff is one of the greatest of this world's golf courses?"

"What other course are you ushered forth from the castle, on a quest across rivers, through towering forests, over cauldrons, past dangerous wild beasts, all in the shadow of many Mt Olympuses; where the last four holes of your return is trumpeted from the castle ramparts. It's as if all in the castle rejoice in your conquest".  (or something like that   )

JC

[peter_p]

I elevated Banff because Thompson's routing and the course's resistance to scoring more than match the natural framing of mountains and river, plus the looming hotel ala Harlech. At Banff, Stanley didn't have the flowing terrain of Jasper's routing (where he did a very good job). Has anyone done any Ran match play comparison?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Has anyone done any Ran match play comparison?

Did you?
and yes, and I did it with the original Banff routing.  Someone wins 1 up.  Close enough....
I read Matt's S's comparison using the "new" Banff route.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Dumb Blond!?  Spare me.

We will split hairs forever on what is better - Banff or Jasper.  My esteemed friend and expert analyst, Adam Clayman, prefers JP over Banff.  I prefer Banff over JP.  Neither of us is wrong and we are both right.  Adam makes an excellent defense for his preference which deserves to be listened to.

But as a whole story, Banff is the creme de la creme.  Rick Holland put it so well.  "How can't you think Banff is one of the greatest of this world's golf courses?"

"What other course are you ushered forth from the castle, on a quest across rivers, through towering forests, over cauldrons, past dangerous wild beasts, all in the shadow of many Mt Olympuses; where the last four holes of your return is trumpeted from the castle ramparts. It's as if all in the castle rejoice in your conquest".  (or something like that   )

JC

That is beautiful wording!

I have done my match-plauy - with Ran- if I remember, we both came up with 1-up Jasper - though Ran prefers Banff!

Inevetiably it proves that those who have missed Thompson's other bests are missing out on one of the greatest architects ever!!!