Velvet Bentgrass

[Will Steele]

Hello,

I'm a newcomer to this site. From what I've read of the postings so far, this has to be the most enlightened and informed group of golfers I've ever seen.

I think I'm in the right place.

I'd like to ask if anyone out there has any experience playing on courses that feature velvet bentgrass, and if so, what you're opinion is of the turf.

I'm researching for an article about it and would like to hear what golfers out there think.

Thanks, and look forward to hearing a response from anyone...

[A_Clay_Man]

Will- The Legends at Bensenville is the only place I know that has the stuff. Or at least the German Variety. Tim Nugent designed the nine holer for the town and from what I have heard, it is a beautiful surface.

If you'd like more info, you can contact the super there. I'm sure he'd love the publicity.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will Steele, (aka ?)

The greens at my course in New Jersey used to be velvet bent (german bent).

They were spectacular to putt on.
The small thin blades made for consistent, speedy surfaces.

Sadly, over the years they became contaminated with poa and other grasses, now, only patches of the velvet bent remain.

I've often wondered if it's possible for that strain to become dominant, or if it can replace the poa and other grasses through some unique agronomic practices.

I believe the grass thrived in cooler climates.

Again, it was spectacular to putt on and easy to read.

[Will Steele]

Adam, Patrick:

Thanks for your responses. From everything I've heard, velvet is a remarkably pure, grain-free turfgrass that second to none in terms of aesthetics. A few new courses are opening with velvet on fairways, tees and greens. One of them is called Eagle's Nest in Toronto, which will open in a few weeks. I've heard it's quite beautful. There's also a course in Rhode Island that's currently working with it called Shelter Harbor.

Velvet may be poised for a comeback.

[DPL11]

The older varieties of velvet bent were prone to mechanical damage, and not very heat tolerant. The newer velvet is terrific, but sadly not used much. The reputation of its predecessor is likely the blame. Some new courses are using it in a mix of several bents and it has worked wonderfully. My home course used 4% velvet in the green, tee, and fairway mix. It has gone nuts and the superintendent is using more in the divot mix. It has colonized in many different areas, wet or dry.

I don't know if a monostand is a good idea until further work is done, but in a mix it has worked out great.


Doug

[Michael J. Moss]

A wonderful nine-hole course in Westport, Conn., Birchwood, has velvet bent greens that are interesting and, indeed, grain-free.  

 

[michael j fay]

I've visited a number of Clubs that still have vestiges of velvet.

I've been to more than one Club that claims to have developed it. Vesper in Tyngsboro Mass claim velvet for it's own referring to Vesper Velvet. They have quite a bit on the greens to this day.

I am no agronomist but I got the feeling that it did not stand up well in competition with other grasses and because of this it was hard to cultivate.

[Doug_Feeney]

Some of the best greens I have ever putted were at Belmont Country Club in Belmont, MA just outside of Boston.  They had velvet bent at the time, but I hear they have had to change due to EPA restrictions on some of the chemicals they used on the grass.

All this comes from guys I know in the golf shop, so I'm not claiming it is all correct.  Still worth calling the place if you are looking for more info.

[Pat K]

Micheal and Doug,
                       You information is somewhat off. Vesper velvet was indeed discovered by Manny Francis, longtime superintendent of Vesper country club. Supposedly he found it while duck hunting on the Saco river. HE propagated it and planted it on many courses in new england.
             Belmont does indeed have some beautiful velvet greens. The super, Arthur Silva, does a great job at maintaining them. The club is in the process of approving a master plan. If the greens do get regrassed it won't be because of the EPA or pesticides.
         In general many new england clubs have had velvet greens, it's our only native turfgrass. The demise of it was the release of Penncross in the 1960's. This creeper was maintained with an annual nitrogen recommendation of 8 to 12 pounds. The supers who learned  the management style and the new and better way of growing cooked the native bents.
        Velvet is a wonderful grass but it doesn't like a lot of fertility. It likes an acidic soil with a little iron and it's happy
(just like our native soil) When it's heavily fertilized it gets puffy and grainy and scalps easily.
        Hopes this helps.
                             Pat Kriksceonaitis

[Tom_Doak]

I would love to see Velvet make a comeback but I haven't heard many success stories so far.

We tried a plot of it on the practice putting green at San Francisco Golf Club the year before we rebuilt their greens, but it didn't catch well at all, and got zero votes against A-4 as the final choice for the greens there.

It would mix well with fescue if anyone had the guts to try it.

[Robert Thompson]

You'd have to ask Ian Andrew about this for certain, but I'm pretty sure Carrick Design used Velvet Bent at their new course in Toronto, Eagles Nest.

Robert

[Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS]

Tom,

Dr. John Stier at the UW-Madison has been doing some considerable work with Velvets, I’m not that well informed on his progress but you may want to contact him for further information.  Pat K. is right on the mark with the history of Velvet.  Many courses in New England were established with a “South German” blend of turf. (Velvet, Colonial, and Washington)  Vesper Creeping bentgrass was the first “improved” variety of Velvet to come to market. I’d suspect that the varying fertility requirements of the different varieties plus the use (in the past) of PCNB on greens for snow mold control has lead to the Velvet’s decline.

Winchester CC in MA is another course that had fairly large stands of Velvet, however, much of it was damaged during the past few severe winters.  

I’ve never managed that turf but from what I understand the practices required to maintain Velvet are much different than other turfs, topdressing with sawdust is one that comes to mind.  Perhaps this is to help keep the root zone acidic?

Pat Sisk

[ian]

Eagle's Nest greens are indeed Velvet and Brent Rogers selected the turf after consulting with a club in the north-east that was famous for having Velvet Bent greens.

So far they are young, so it would be premature to judge. I do know they were very slow to grow in, but then doesn't all grow-ins seem slow


Here is a shot of one of the greens.

[Ed_Baker]

Good and informative posts gentlmen.

Charles River had S.German velvet when I was growing up in the '50's but by the mid to late 70's the poa was winning the battle and patches of velvet were the norm. Today,on an 8000 sq. ft. green you might find 200 sq. ft. of velvet.

The past few winters with the freeze re-freeze scenario crown hydration turned our greens to dust and the Superintendent is struggling mightily to find a strain of bent that will catch and sustain.

I would concur with Pat Mucci's post that when the velvet was healthy it was the finest and truest putting surface that I ever played on.

Salem,Winchester,Brae-Burn, Woodland, are other Boston area courses that still have some velvet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Feeney,

Thanks for reminding me.

When I played Belmont, one of the first things I noticed, other then the wonderful green sites on the old course, was the velvet.

Ed Baker,

Years ago, Preakness Hills CC was all velvet, and with Suburban golf club, had the finest putting surfaces in the entire state, IMO.  But, sadly, like your course, only patches remain today.

Over the last 50 years I don't think I've seen many putting surfaces read and putt truer than that old velvet.  
It was fantastic.

Maybe that's why I'm such a bad putter today.

BRING BACK THE VELVET.

But, here are my questions to the superintendents out there.

If more and more herbicides and pesticides are banned, would that be more or less conducive to reintroducing velvet ?

50 years ago, traffic on greens was much lower and greens tended to be small to medium sized.  Does velvet hold up well to increased traffic ?

[Dave_Wilber]

I'll look forward to Will Steele's byline in one of the industry trades

Tom Beat me to the punch on the SFGC story. But to be honest, that Velvet was in plots surrounded by creepers and the fertility program was creeper oriented and it didn't do very well.

It is also what the putting green at the Bandon Dunes practice facility was seeded to.

I'm a big Velvet fan and I think it will become a star in some situations...particularly places where short growing seasons are in play. We've used in for a decade in my "secret" Bermuda Greens overseeding program and it does really well in that situation and transitions very well...this telling me lots about hot weather ability, of which is has little.

And the Velvet that I see from today's seed supply is much different that what was pointed out to me years ago that is really much more like South German bent.

Hello,

I'm a newcomer to this site. From what I've read of the postings so far, this has to be the most enlightened and informed group of golfers I've ever seen.

I think I'm in the right place.

I'd like to ask if anyone out there has any experience playing on courses that feature velvet bentgrass, and if so, what you're opinion is of the turf.

I'm researching for an article about it and would like to hear what golfers out there think.

Thanks, and look forward to hearing a response from anyone...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Dave,
It must not been that tight of a "secret" as I used velvet in my overseed from '97 - '01. It made for a nice winter surface and when I was South of Tucson I had some hang around until mid-august.

They used to have a velvet practice green at Desert Mountain that looked great when I saw it in '01.

How do you think it would perform in Central OR with a growing season from May-Oct? Can it be managed to hold off poa without endless handpicking?

[Dave_Wilber]

Don..."Secret" is my current way of joking about doing anything non standard. We started flirting with the stuff in 92-93 for overseeding. And of course you can imagine what the usual suspects thought of changing from the tried and true Poa Triv and/or Ryegrass bombings.

I don't know the Poa question. I've never seen it anywhere where you could go the full monty and never water. But when the surface comes together...it is amazing. Get over to COrvalis and take a look at the stuff Tom has done around the greens and on the greens at the turf farm. I was loving it.

And for real Velvet cheerleading...I always seek the skirts of Bill Torrello...Skip Lynch makes the JV squad.