Why not Green and Firm

[Dave_Miller]

As I sit looking out at the snow that has blanketed the Boston area, with another 12-18 inches falling as I write, thoughts of Green Fairways , Fast Greens and Teeing it up anytime soon seem to be only distant memories.

As I contemplate the white falling onto the courses in the area and wondering how so much snow will affect the courses when it finally begins to melt I think back to discussions of firm and fast, wet and soft, balls pugging, balls running, the aerial game, the ground game, etc.

This has led me to wonder "WHY NOT GREEN AND FIRM"?

Last summer all we heard was there was a drought and extra water was required.  There is too much humidity so extra water is required.  Yet at Pawtucket Country Club a scant 30 minutes away the correct balance between green and firm seemed to be achieved.  

The course looked lush and green yet balls ran in fairways and up approaches.  The ground game was as important (and perhaps more so) than the aerial game.

Is this a phenomenon or some kind of accident or is there a formula for achieving such balance?

To be firm and fast does this necessarily promote brown?

Why not green and firm?

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[TEPaul]

Dave:

Of course green and firm can be done but it can't necessarily be considered a general thing on any course. Subsurface and soil conditions are what it's about because that's what both the drainage patterns and water retention patterns are  about from course to course.

Just look at some of the courses we've seen so far this year on Tour. Those balls are rocketing in many cases and the courses are green.

Subsurface and soil conditions! That's what it's about.

I say if any club is interested in firm and fast the first thing to do is check out your subsurface and soil conditions and that will tell you what's ahead for you in your quest for firm and fast!

[Ed_Baker]

Why Davey3,shame on you, have you already forgotten 1997?

Did we not achieve "green and firm" for most of the season?

Of course it's possible,we did it, and you were on the committee, calling Dr. Katz, Dr. Katz please, we have early onset golfing alzheimers.

Also for reference, there is a permanent video record of "green and firm" existing in the same photographic frames in 1970's "Behind the Green Door" starring Marylin Chambers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Miller,

TEPaul is surprisingly correct, at least partially correct.

Micro climates also impact the ability to get things green and fast.

I've noticed that the greenish/yellowish/brownish coloration seems to be connected to fast and firm conditions.

The problem seems to be that people want their course, looking in the heat of summer, like ANGC looks in the spring, not realizing that ANGC closes for the summer.

Ed Baker,

I understand your point, at one time I had the tape.
I know that surprises you.
I look forward to seeing and playing with you fellows this summer.

[Buck Wolter]

I think proper irrgation is equally important. Having worked on a high end Private course for a year that had 2 row irrigation the fairways would get hit twice while the rough would get hit once with each cycle. Because brown rough was unexceptable the fairways were always soggy. Hopefully with better technology a super can dial in the irrigation much better today and get at least  greenish and firm.

My guess is fewer supers get fired for wet than dead.

[Dave_Miller]

Tommy:
What impact does the buildup of thatch have on softness in fairways and on approaches?  Could this be deemed a result of or perhaps corrected by "the proper maintenance meld"

Patrick:
Why does it not suprprise me that you would have that tape.

Best
Dave

[Jeff_McDowell]

Looking into my almost-never-accurate crystal ball, I think green and firm will be the rule not the exception in the future. New turf grasses are coming on-line every year, and sooner or later they find one that stays green and alive with very little water.

Recently I spoke with a turfgrass researcher that has a dwarf variety of poa annua that thrives on little water and needs mowing a few times a year. Unfortunately, he can't get it to market, because it grows so slow that it won't go to seed.

[TEPaul]

"Tommy:
What impact does the buildup of thatch have on softness in fairways and on approaches?  Could this be deemed a result of or perhaps corrected by "the proper maintenance meld""

Dave:

Big impact! big, big, big! Gotta get rid of thatch build-up on those fairways. Thatch buildup like big, big sponge to golf ball and golf ball do not like to bounce on big big sponge!! Golf ball don't know how to bounce and run on big, big sponge!

Where would ball bounce better? Off hardhead with little short crewcut or off big 1960s afro? Same with big thatch buildup--like 1960s afro--and ball don't know how to bounce and run off Jim Hendrix's afro!

But something like dethatching is basically SOP on almost any golf course even the over irrigated ones. Just the normal dethatching processes that most any course does a couple times a year; tyning, deep tyinging, verticutting, and all kinds of that kind of dethatching processes. The supers will tell us what they're all called and the best times of the year to do them.

Once you get rid of the thatch the thing that makes the ball really bounce and run is the hard ground under the nonthatchy grass. The grass is healthy, though, if its roots have gone done deep and are sucking on moisture way underneath that hard subsurface soil transition level right under the crewcut and between the moisture way down below.

If you want to you don't even have to give your fairways a crewcut if they're properly dethatched. You can give them a Perry Como cut or even a Peter Gunn cut if you want to.

But afro cut-like thatchy fairways bery bery bad for bounce and run of golf ball.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jeff -- Slow-growing grass? I'd love to get that stuff for my yard at home. Got a phone number?

Rick

[JohnH]

Dave,

Just a quick correction - maybe a typo, but in regards to your 4th paragraph in your first post.  Actually, higher humidity levels reduce the need for irrigation.  Its low humidity, dry conditions when the water needs to be pumped.....  

TEP - not a bad essay on effects of thatch on the golf ball... pretty good for a non-agronomist.  

[Dave_Miller]

Dave,

Just a quick correction - maybe a typo, but in regards to your 4th paragraph in your first post.  Actually, higher humidity levels reduce the need for irrigation.  Its low humidity, dry conditions when the water needs to be pumped.....  

 

John H:
No typo here.  This is simply what we were told.  As a result we had very soft fairways and very soft approaches.  However I think Tom's discussion of thatch played into this also.
Best
Dave

[islandergolfer]

Recently I spoke with a turfgrass researcher that has a dwarf variety of poa annua that thrives on little water and needs mowing a few times a year. Unfortunately, he can't get it to market, because it grows so slow that it won't go to seed.

I would imagine this would be a nice grass for people's yards.  I don't think it would be very effective for golf courses, because if the grass is slow growing, it wouldn't recover from high traffic or other types of damage very effectivly.  

So dethatching would basically be picking up all of the grass clippings?  That's pretty simple to do, when i mow the yard, about half of the time there's a bag on the mower and all of it gets picked up.  I don't see any golf courses doing the same, i wonder why.  Obviously they would have a lot of grass clippings to discard, but if it's better for the course, why not?

[TEPaul]

Dave:

You said:

"John H:
No typo here.  This is simply what we were told."

Don't worry about that for a second. So what if they told you the opposite of the truth? That was last year. This is this year and now you've got some of the finest minds in the world working on your course's case for firm and fast.

You even have the world's best nonagronomist agronomist working on your case---me!

I'm surprised you didn't react more positively to my Afro analogy to the ill effects of thatch buildup to the bouncing running ball.

I don't care who you're up against that's adverserial to instituting firm and fast conditions. You just ask your club's most powerful and adverserial naysayers to firm and fast conditions if they really want to play golf off of Jimi Hendrix's 'fro and I'll guarantee you your course will be dethatched and the balls will be bouncing, running and dancing across the ground like you can't believe in a New York second.  

Does CRCC really want to be known even on here as that great New England Donald Ross course with the Jimi Hendrix afro thatchy fairways and approaches?

[JohnH]

Picking up clippings for 25-35 acres of fairways three days a week is just not realistic.  I'm sure there are a handful of high-end courses with high six-figure or more maintenance budgets that could get away with it, or tourney stops, but golf courses as a whole just don't do it.  So comparing a home lawn to a golf course in that regard is comparing apples to oranges.

Also, collecting grass clippings is not dethatching, or else putting greens would never have a thatch problem.  
Thatch, without getting too technical, is a by-product of ways to keep the turf healthy - mainly pesticide use.  Overwatering can have an impact on thatch accumulation also....

[steve mann]

dear dave,


pawtucket is a hidden gem in my opinion in the greater boston area.  as you said, it is only 30 minutes from boston.  great turf and soil conditions but i tip my hat to the super there...mike whitehead, he is doing a fantastic job.  he learned firsthand how to keep things firm and fast being the assistant at wannamoisett, right next door.

[Dave_Miller]

Dave:

Don't worry about that for a second. So what if they told you the opposite of the truth? That was last year. This is this year and now you've got some of the finest minds in the world working on your course's case for firm and fast.

You even have the world's best nonagronomist agronomist working on your case---me!

I'm surprised you didn't react more positively to my Afro analogy to the ill effects of thatch buildup to the bouncing running ball.

I  

Tom:
Can't wait until Mucci sees that you are the world's best nonagronomist agronimist.
I will absolutely react positively to your analogy.  I actually love it. However I have been a little busy and haven't really had time to respond.  
Tomorrow is another day and I will respond appropriately and with due respect and care .  
Best
Dave

[TEPaul]

Dave:

Don't tell me you've been listening to Pat Mucci. No wonder your course had a thatch problem last year. He was probably the guy who told you the opposite of the truth on that humidity thing.

The very first rule of good architecture and how maintenance melds into it properly on this website is for God's sake don't listen to anything Pat Mucci says without checking with me first.

[Don_Mahaffey]

JohnH,
Huh? Thatch is a result of pesticide use? Are you saying we kill all the little buggers that decompose the thatch? I need some explaining there. I see plenty of turfed areas get thatchy where no chemicals are used.

TePaul,
Yup, the ball can get pretty bouncy when your grass starts feeling like a water bed. Worse yet, all that thatch causes lots of problems that lead to a weak plant and too much water used. My rule of thumb, when I vertical mow, I want to see soil in the slots, if all I see is thatch, then I've let it get away from me and I keep slicing. Keeping the turf thinned out so it can breath and have room to grow is what I believe in. That may not stand up to scientific scrutiny, but it works for me.  

[JohnH]

O.K., explanation.  I should have said an improper use of pesticides contribute to thatch accumulation, but not totally.  Compaction, acidic soils, overwatering, cultivar/species of grass, mowing practices, and possibly the fertizer program in use all have direct effects on thatch.  I'm just one who happens to believe the main reason golf courses have to continually control thatch build-up on putting greens is due to the emphasis on chemical use, fertilizing, and overwatering (not saying you misuse any of these things, of course).

[Dave_Miller]

John H:
Are there any specific pesticides that if used improperly could lead to thatch buildup and help create the TEPaul Afro effect.
Bestd,
Dave

[JohnH]

Dave,

I am not aware of any specific pesticide that with misuse is responsible for thatch buildup.  Microorganisms are vital in the breakdown of thatch.  In my experience as a rule of thumb, misuse of fungicides and insecticides can reduce microbial activity substantially (and earthworms).  Quick theoretical example:  High nitrogen fertilizers promote speedy, succulant, growth, which in turn promotes greater disease and insect pressure, thus the need for more frequented pesticide use.  The result of this is detrimental to favorable microorganisms, which favors a thatch layer.

Don, what you say is true, areas of turf not chemically treated get thatch, no argument here.  Acidic soils perhaps?

[Dave_Miller]

Dave,

I am not aware of any specific pesticide that with misuse is responsible for thatch buildup.  Microorganisms are vital in the breakdown of thatch.  In my experience as a rule of thumb, misuse of fungicides and insecticides can reduce microbial activity substantially (and earthworms).  Quick theoretical example:  High nitrogen fertilizers promote speedy, succulant, growth, which in turn promotes greater disease and insect pressure, thus the need for more frequented pesticide use.  The result of this is detrimental to favorable microorganisms, which favors a thatch layer.

Don, what you say is true, areas of turf not chemically treated get thatch, no argument here.  Acidic soils perhaps?

John:
Now I get it.  Using certain pesticides in too great a quantity can destroy the microorganisms which help reduce thatch.
How'd I do.
Best,
Dave

[Grassman]

John,

The technical definition of thatch is this, it is an intermingled layer of living and dead plant material that builds up at the soil surface.  A certain degree of thatch is necessary for the health of the plants.  This is very analogous (sp?) to having a pad beneath your carpet and not having a pad.  The carpet without the pad will wear out much earlier than the carpet with the pad under equal traffic patterns.  While the use of certain incecticides may, and I stress may, have some part in thatch formation, the primary deciding factors are the grass species itself (as witnessed with some of the newer so-called improved bentgrasses that with improper care can develop 1" to 2" of thatch per year!), excessive fertilization rates and over-watering.  In general, it is quite difficult to remove the excess thatch, a rough guideline can sometimes be used that it takes as long to remove the excess thatch as it did to let it develop.  The only way to truly reduce a thatch layer is with aggressive aerification (and all Superintendents know how much golfers love this), regular topdressing, verti-cutting and at times the use of a de-thatcher (such as a Graden) to physically remove the thatch.  All of these processes take time, patience and understanding from the golfers.  It does not happen overnight.  

[JohnH]

Read what I said Grassman.  Misuse is different than use.  I did not say the use of insecticides formed thatch.  I said the misuse of fungicides and insecticides was harmful to microorganisms which degrade thatch.

[TEPaul]

Fellas:

When Dave Miller goes in front of the people he needs to go in front of to esablish firm and fast conditions at CR by dethatching the place he does not need to talk to them about fungicides and pesticides and microorganisms and applications of this and that.

What he needs to do is tell them that if that golf course is not satisfactorily fast, bouncing and running by July 1 2003 TEPaul will start a world wide rumor that Charles River's agronomy is the best example in all of golfdom of Jim Hendrix's 'fro.