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Patrick_Mucci

The Next Big Thing
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
Jeff McDowell,

I think it may be bad for golf.

The process for creating Government owned public golf courses usually eliminates the entrepreneur in the area, because it is almost impossible to compete financially.

I was with a fellow last weekend whose family had built and has owned a public golf course for about 43 years.  The County takes his tax money and builds public courses that compete with him.  He can't compete on costs to build, and on costs to maintain.  And, he can't compete in the permiting area.

Where golf is hurt is as follows.  The entrepreneur will not take the leap to buy a piece of property, and to hire an exceptional architect who could turn the property into a very good golf course.
They will not risk the environmental approval process, and concessions that may be wrung out of them, that the Town, County or State would never face.  All this leads to the non-building of a superior golf course product.

I recently witnessed a County, build through wetlands.  Had you done the same as a private venture, you would be looking to this site for bail money.

Governments seem to be able to construct and compete on a more favorable basis, but, the final product will not be as good, unless private individuals were given equal treatment, including financing and immunity from environmental and permiting issues.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.  


Paul Turner

The Next Big Thing
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2001, 03:03:00 PM »
Do any of the top architects actively seek a muni course project?  I could be wrong, but I don't see much evidence of this.

So that's what I'd wish for as the next Big Thing.  Some more Bethpage Black quality munis.  Maybe the US Open will spark something off? (though I doubt it)


Jeff_McDowell

The Next Big Thing
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »
Patrick,

I may be reading between the lines here, so if I misinterpret, please straighten me out.  I think you're implying that a private developer is more likely than a public entity to create a nice golf course.  I don't know if that is true.

In Minnesota two of our best daily fee courses were created by public entities.  One course was designed by Jeff Brauer.

However, I do think it takes an exceptional public entity with an exceptional vision to create something nice.


Patrick_Mucci

The Next Big Thing
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »
Jeff,

The Government entity building the course isn't usually one individual, with vision, leading the way, and the Governmental agency building the course doesn't run the same environmental and permiting gauntlet, and with the Governmental entity building and maintaining the course no one is risking their capital, except for the mass of taxpayers in nominal form.

If costs, permiting, and environmental issues were swept aside, who would you rather have develop a golf course in your area, Ken Bakst, or some County Executive ?


Lou_Duran

  • Total Karma: -2
The Next Big Thing
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2001, 07:30:00 PM »
Robert Trent Jones did the Trail in Alabama with funding from that state's teachers' retirement fund.  I believe that Jack Nicklaus has done a similar multi-course project for Tennessee.  Jeff Brauer has done nice courses in Texas for Somervell County (Squaw Valley in Glen Rose), Grand Prairie (Tangle Ridge), and Plano (Ridgeview Ranch- a JV with a private sector developer).  Graham/Panks did an outstanding municipal course, Tierra Verde, for Arlington (TX).

The question is not whether government can build good golf courses- it clearly can since the same architects, construction companies, and irrigation specialists are used.  In some cases, government will spend larger amounts of money which it gets from the taxpayers and borrows at much cheaper rates than the private sector.  The real issue is whether government should be in the business of building golf courses when and where the private sector is able to do so.

The following probably illustrates what Mike Young and others claim is government's unfair advantage.  Nearly seven years ago, I submitted a contract to purchase 315 acres in southwest Arlington for a golf course and residential development.  I had equity commitments for well over $1MM, and other funds that would have enabled me to close on the land if the feasibility work was favorable.  A well regarded local architect did some preliminary routings for me, and my land plan showed enough promise that I scheduled meetings with city staff to get the project on a fast track.

It should be noted that this tract was the last piece of reasonably priced land in the city that was mostly out of the flood plain, and in sufficient size and shape to build an excellent golf course.  Much to my surprise, the city was cool to the idea of a golf course on that site, citing higher use plans and street expansions which would have necessitated splitting the golf course into two or three pieces.

Through further sleuthing, I learned that the Parks & Recreation Department had identified the same property for a high-end daily fee golf course and multi-sport complex.  The city wanted to tap into the convention and corporate outings market, and even developed plans to hire a gourmet chef for the club.

Further, upon learning that I had submitted a contract for the land, that department accelarated its own contracting process and communicated to the seller that it had the money ready to go, and subject to a friendly council's approval, it could close in three to four months (I had a feasibility study contigency in the contract, with closing in six to seven months).  It's my understanding that Parks & Rec. also stressed to the seller that it could much more easily navigate through the zoning and permitting process.

To make a long story a little shorter, the seller accepted the city's contract.  They closed nearly a year later (instead of 3 - 4 months), and it took the city another two years to get the golf course built.  Nearly three years after the course opening, and a couple of lawsuits, the clubhouse was recently opened (though the surrounding landscaping is still in progress).  As an aside, the new streets that were supposed to go through the property, apparently they were either no longer needed or will be realigned around the site.

There is no question that the taxpayer is subsidizing municipal golf course operations.  These projects are sold to city councils and the public on the basis that they generate revenues in excess of costs, with the surplus used to fund other parks & recreation activities.  Golfers also benefit because the green fees at many of these facilities are lower, though the ongoing maintenance, service, and atmosphere often decline through time.  What the staff does not acknowldege is that it takes property from the tax rolls, and that the net tax receipts are much lower than if the private sector owned, developed, and operated the facility.

I am sure that this is happening throughout the country.  Someone that writes better than I could write a very interesting book.  As frustrating as this experience was for me, I am sure that it was a lot of fun for the city's park & rec. people.  They got to rub shoulders with David Graham and play the role of big time developer with no personal risk.  By the way, the course came out very well.  It is my understanding that the total cost (turn-key), including clubhouse, was in the $7.5 to $8.5mm range.  My preliminary budget was between $5 and $6.

On the subject of buying golf courses for 50 cents on the dollar, there may be a few such opportunities in the near future, but I doubt that the buyers will be the mom and pops.  First of all, through this last building cycle, a lot more equity went into the deals.  When we saw the crash in commercial real estate in the late 80s, many of the properties were mortgaged to the gills.  Unless the economy goes in the toilet, I doubt that we will see the type of panic that will force owners and their lenders to dump the properties.  And if it gets to that point, how many mom and pops have $2-$3mm to plop down?  Who will lend them the money?  In that event, I would watch for our friends with American Golf and CCA to set up a vulture fund.  They both have close ties to Wall Street and generate substantial cash flow from existing operations.  And in my humble opinion, part of the problem with the lack of growth in the game today is due to the heavy handedness of these corporate operators.  In fact, I don't know what is worse, government in golf or a further concentration of the industry favoring the likes of these two giant owners.  Just my opinion!


Jeff_McDowell

The Next Big Thing
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2001, 05:40:00 AM »
Patrick,

You are correct about need for an individual with a solid vision leading the way.  In Both instances I cited, there was a single person with a strong vision that was able to persuade their councils to build high end golf courses.

I'm not sure I agree with you about government agnecies not having to run the environmental or regulatory gauntlet.  The municipal courses I have knowledge of have to do the same things a private developer would.

However, Lou brings up an excellent point about municipalities bending the rules for their own projects.  Similar to Lou, I have seen municipalities move roads and water towers (at taxpayers expense) to accomodate their golf project.

Lou, that's a heartbreaking story, but a story I believe is not uncommon.

Personally, I would like government agencies to get out of the business of high-end daily fee courses and start building courses that attract golfers to the game.  There are plenty of private developers willing to build the high-end stuff.


Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
The Next Big Thing
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2001, 07:24:00 AM »
Paul,
I think many of the "top architects" will seek anything if the developer agrees to build to that architects required budget.  I think many people do not realize that many of the "top" guys require a minimum budget which they know will carry on their style.  If a muni will do this they will build.

Lou,
I think the RTJ trail has never made a dime but loses in the name of attracting industrial development.

Lou,
Examples FYI

Near Atlanta,

Golfers on city council want a new private club.  Some are on board of the private club.  City agrees to buy the old private club, renovate the golf course for a public project.  City approves bond for all monies required plus large purchase price.  Council member sells family land to private club for the new project.  Private club made enough money off of sale to city that it pays for land and course.  Everybody lives happily ever after.

Another:
Council member gets made a local private club in small town.  Vows to build public project that will susdize cost of rounds to locals.  Wants private club out of business.  Done.

IMHO,  I do not know the answer but I do agree that there are some great public layouts that are owned by cities or municipalities across the country.  It may be that the growth of golf will depend on the munis subsidizing golf for its citizens.  But if this is the case it may be the private sector that is out of place with the CCFAD fad.  You certainly don't see many private individuals trying to build softball or tennis complexes that compete with the munis.

Anexample that did work:

The City of Hartwell Ga. was under mandate to spray effluent water or be fined $25,000 per month for contamination of a creek.  They had an engineering firm design a wastewater treatment plant that cost nearly $25,000,000.  A local businessman came to me and we discussed a golf course for spraying the water.  I joint ventured with this person and we went to the city with the following proposal.  For every dollar we could save you on the engineers design by spraying water on the course ; would you give us $.50.  They said yes.  The city bought 479 acres for spraying.  The 150 buffer was eliminated because we elevated the water quality.  We saved the city $7 million and they gave us $3.5 million for golf construction that did not have to be repaid.  A bond was issued for clubhouse etc.
The course ,Cateechee(www.gcsaa.org/gcm/2000/feb00/02southern.html this site will explain))won The Environmental Stewardship Award for 2000 from GCSAA, 6 Best Affordable GD 2000, Audobon Certified Signature Sactuary etc.  This worked and will work anywhere.  The course makes a profit and the city is happy.  I think this is one solution.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2004, 06:51:13 PM »
So, it's been a while...any recent thoughts on "THE NEXT BIG THING"?

It seems — heck, it's obvious — we are in a retro-age or trend-period. We are building courses that appear classic, despite them winding through housing or being constructed on less-than-decent sites.

"The classic look is good", say many of us. "Make it look as if MacKenzie himself had been here...", perhaps eating a sandwich while the architect directs the shaping of a few bunkers. That lip-service is OK — it's what's in vogue.

- - -

So...what say you now, a few years past this post?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Doug Siebert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2004, 10:15:06 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with munis.  Yeah, they compete with the private sector.  So what?  Anything the government provides competes with the public sector.  The Interstate system competes with those who would build toll roads, your city's police limits the opportunities for private security firms, your government run schools and universities and hospitals limit the opportunities for same in the private sector, etc.

Government has a tradition since the time of the Romans for providing areas for public recreation, and golf courses are merely yet another extension of that idea.  You can argue against that, but consider how your city would look if there were no public parks?  Imagine New York City without Central Park.  Consider that golf might not even exist today if it weren't for St. Andrews and other Scottish towns maintaining public lands that golfers were allowed to use!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Paul_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2004, 08:47:18 AM »
JB: A good thread. Here is my 'stab in the dark' about some emerging trends over the next deacde.

(1) A growing realisation of the problems associated with over-planting and over-crowding of non-indigenous (too often exotic) tree species on courses. More clubs will progressively relish the spectre of vast open spaces and avenues that encourage wind funneling, thereby, adding another dimension to the game.

(2) Higher quality public-access courses around the globe.

(3) More consultants (not associated with design firms) will be employed to aid golf clubs in deciphering and evaluating the suggestions of golf-course architects, prior to the club  actually committing funds and approving design plans.

(4) Water shortages over the next decade will automatically lead to a more 'livlier' version of golf.

(5) Bobby W and Scot S may be on a winner with their
'Start-Over' philosophy, perhaps encouraging other architects to reason with clubs that [second rate] courses once built on better than average terrain, needn't be destined to stay second rate for ever. This leads to No.6.

(6) A trend - by necessity - will emerge where members  demand more of a voice in the consultation process between a club and its architect. One senses that members will be
less trusting of Boards/Committees.      

(7) Paradigms regarding routing/configuration will progressively be smashed. Consecutive par-three's, or, par-five's will cease to be a talking point, and I sense some fairly lob-sided inward/outward nine combinations will sneak through, such as, 32/38; 33/38; 34/38; and so forth. Hand in hand with this, the industry will be less hamstrung by the rigidity that a course MUST conform to a par of 72 ... with 10 x 4s; 4 x 3s; and 4 x 5s. Courses won't necessarily have their hardest holes coming at the end, and they won't automatically be flanked by water.

(8) A noted resurgence in the building of short, par-fours will eventually translate to more tiny par-threes. Combined, not all courses will naturally get longer in the next decade.

(9) Clubs and architects will become more skilled at sheilding techniques; the jarring incidence of housing-associated golf courses will not cease,  but will slow down. New financing methods will be sought to help projects return to a traditional model - little, or no housing in sight.

(10) A greater understanding of the inter-relationship between design and maintenance will take hold - at club level and with firms.  

(11) Due to escalating maintenance and labour costs, greens will begin to shrink, but not alarmingly.

(12) More bunkerless holes will spring up around the golfing globe.

Ps ... fantasy land: a golf-course architect builds an 1875 St. Andrews-style square green - just for fun!


Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2004, 09:09:49 AM »
Forrest,

Nothing to do yesterday,huh?  So you dredge up one of my old threads.....

Paul,

Great answers. I don't disagree with any points, I do agree with 4, 11 and 12.  I fear no. 3 and 6!  Getting consensus from a committee of five is tough. If the whole membership had an equal say in the final design, it may be chaos.  And a second consultant? I see it happening, but I don't see it helping, necessarily.  Perhaps clubs should just put more effort into selecting "the right architect" before the project starts....

As for square greens, RTJ II has built a few, and touts them in his Golf by Design book. I have a few squared off in L shapes, and one Ross inspired green with a square front. I call it "the liberty bell" and as you might guess, it was built right after 9-11.....

Unfortuneatly, going back to my first post, right now, I see the Neo 30-40's trend happening - very few courses being built. I also see a trend to the neo 60's - where maintenance dominates the design process......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2004, 10:14:28 AM »
Jeff,

I have all your threads posted on my bedroom walls. And, some of your routing plans that I've been able to get out of the trash. And...
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Paul_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2004, 08:36:01 AM »
JB: I am sure that you are right about the comment that should the right golf-course architect be chosen in the first place, the need for a second consultant's opinion would hardly ever rise. The tricky thing is, which Board or Committee is brilliant enough to know in advance that it is about to make a major-league boo-boo? Every one is brilliant at the time of decision-making. I sense the second-opinion trend could emerge, and it promises to be rather unpopular; it may even be untenable.

Consensus is scary and although good-natured, it doesn't work in golf. One only has to look at some of the great temples of golf and note how they have been formulated
and carried through by dictators (at worst), or strong-willed, knowledgable individuals who "called a spade a bloody shovel," and maintained continuity over many years.

Good to learn of RTJs square greens, I must seek that out in his book, stashed somewhere in the library. It would be great to see one of these materialise Down Under, or one of your L-shaped Liberty Bell jobs.

   

Lance Rieber

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2004, 10:07:42 AM »
Well,
Interesting thread.  I keep coming back to the point Richard stated in his first reply, about courses being built in far-away locations (for most). Bandon, Sand Hills, Sutton Bay, Cape Kidnappers etc.  I think people are finding their ideal land and building a course, then hoping the quality of the course will bring the people there.  My question is will this continue and if it does will the courses be private or public? We can't all afford 50K-100K and up initiation fees.  I know Bandon is public, but the costs are still fairly high.  Will this happen on a 40 dollar budget?  I know it costs money to build but does it push the middle  to low income player from playing.  It seems to me that when architects are building the courses that we call "Minimalist" they aren't pushing around a lot of dirt and the cost of the course would be relatively low. (not sure)I know more goes into but we all dislike the elaborate clubhouse.
I would love to see "the next big thing" be affordable (40) "classic" courses around the country.

A_Clay_Man

Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2004, 10:23:48 AM »
Lance, That would be great, wouldn't it? However, that is not what's happening. While every case is specific, a trend I've noticed, and have heard from others on, is, the windfall price point, many of these older courses, in rural areas, have enjoyed since the boom of the 90's. Some of the late-comers to the party, are now charging in excess of $35 for golf, that isn't even worth that. Or have sub-standard, and I mean SUB, conditions.

What Forrest calls a retro, is more like a retracement in gca. Back to core values, hopefully respecting the craddle. And most importantly, ignoring the customer.  ;D

The next BIG THING s/b the "New Cruelty". Black lists for lack of respecting others, or the canvas.

(J/K) Maybe a prominant penalty box complete with dunk tank? Do you think anyone will ever not fix a ball mark again or fail to rake, after spending a short stint, being embarassed?

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2004, 05:41:22 PM »
Haven't read the thread, yet. May never get to it. So, apologies if I'm repeating:

What I'd like to see, and can vaguely imagine seeing, in the coming decades is the emergence of the non-championship 18-hole course -- halfway between the executive course and the Monster. 5,000 yards, par-64 (numbers out of my ... hat).

Places where kids and women and aged Boomers would have, possibly, more fun than many have on Championship Courses.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2004, 10:50:56 PM »
Dan
The sad part is that there are many existing courses around the country of the kind you describe. Even in urban areas like Philadelphia. See Ran's(?) review of Walnut Lane.
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2004, 10:50:06 AM »
I also see a move or continuation of branding in golf around architects. Therefore promotional skills will be as important as Design skills. The neoclassical will run in step with this much like two eras at once. I two see a move to create a more functional muni course that has better maintenace as government become mor ein tune with the revenue streams and how it can help a community.

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:The Next Big Thing
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2004, 11:07:56 PM »
Back to core values....? I'd like to think that is happening. But the "retro" movement does not always focus on the game and the strategy — very often, if not 75% of the time, the main thrust of the "retro" movement is to capture a look. This is not always the case. Adam has the right idea, but he is special.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com