Fortress Greens - What happened to them ?

[paul cowley]

george ....having not seen the old version of #11 at cc of charleston ,i would be interested to know how they softened it ......given its boldness in comparison to the rest of the course ,i felt that it seemed more similar in strength to many of the holes found at Yeamans Hall.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy Hughes,

The sides are steep and the green is substantially elevated from the fairway.

[George_Bahto]

Paul: This hole has been very controversial for many years as you are probably aware.

For those who do not know the hole, it is a very severe Reverse redan but the bunker in front is about as deep as any around and the rear bunker is even worse.

The angle seems to be a little more than 45-degrees but perhaps it just seems so.

This is/was one intimidating par-3.

The original pro at CC of C was the great Henry Picard and the legend seems to be that, even in the early days, many player (which probably included him) started laying up on the ramp/hill leading up to the green ....... the ramp very steep and even the falloff up the ramp has falloffs.

By “laying up” on the ramp/hill you stood a better chance of protecting a score by hoping to get up-and-down. Attacking this hole often lead(s) to high numbers - so take your bogey, perhaps get your par and “get out of Dodge City”

Even in Regional tourneys the better player often played the hole this way.

There was a book published once listing the 100 worse holes in the US - this was on the list!!

The club knocked the approach down pretty substantially a couple years ago - just lowered the hill.

I liked it the other way - for me, quirky is fine.  That’s the way it was - play it!!

I have pictures of the old hole and I’ll some more pics when we go down there and I’ll get one of the guys to post them if you like.

I saw it last year during a tour of the course with the pro Hart Brown.

GB

[paul cowley]

george .....if you come this way i would enjoy meeting you there if possible....i was there last month and i am sure [?]you know that most greens have shrunk considerably and have lost alot of corners , edges and pins.
  i met hart brown and the greens committee chair and sensed that some form of restoration was in the air ,good timing IMHO..........it's hard to imagine #11 tougher  

still curious as to why that particular hole scores high on the steroid scale in comparison with the others.....it was obviously a built hole or one built on a funky dune relic unlike its surroundings....[although i sense a previous hand of man on the tee and club site that might predate the club ] [civil war i would guess ].

[George_Bahto]

Paul: you said "still curious as to why that particular hole scores high on the steroid scale in comparison with the others"

It is one of the hardest 3's I've seen Mac/Ray/Banks build - perhaps the Redan at the old Links was worse - it was longer but I never saw it.

I always wondered about the 11th at Charleston - it really is so out of character compared to the rest of this flat-land.

I get the feeling that the club (Henry Picard?) had something to do with that hole.

I have about all the material available about the course and it's founding but there is no answer in my material.

Maybe they were looking for some drama on a single hole .... makes no sense to me.

The hole has been panned a lot - I love it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Did CBM, SR or CB ever duplicate the 8th green at NGLA ?

[George_Bahto]

Patrick: not that I've seen - not even close. Never even came close on the fairway bunkering either.

They built a lot of "Bottle" holes (even Banks) but they've been butchered by most clubs because the didn't understand or could not live with the bunkering.


(........ I mean, putting a bunker(s) in the middle of the fairway - geez, not fair at all!! - now I have to think )

It doesn't get much better than bunkers in the fairay (given ample room).

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Yes Andy, Kiawah 3rd hole does have an elevated green where this is possible...  but 14 more so at Kiawah is quite something!  That is table top stuff (Im sure Mike Vegis will chime in at some stage).

I visited Pinehurst when our conference tournament was at Buies Creek, and again 2 years later in 2002, and Id say that holes like 15 are great examples of this where the ball just hits the edges and runs miles away...

No. 3 at The Ocean Course:




No. 14 at The Ocean Course:

[James Edwards]

Mike,

Thank you for your assistance..  I knew you would chime in with some great pictures of your course.

Cheers

[Joel_Stewart]

This thread is an example of GCA and informing people.  To be honest, the term fortress greens is something I had not heard.  Last week I was looking at some old pictures of my club and found a picture dating back to 1914 which showed one of our greens being a fortress green.  The steep grass walled was replaced by a bunker in the 1920's.

[James Edwards]

Joel, any way you could post it?  I for one would be interested

[Andy Hughes]

Mike, thanks for the pictures.  Now those are elevated greens with fairly vertical sides!

James, those are the types of slopes and/or greens I don't recall at #2; such elevation above the surrounds and steeply pitched slopes running away. Not to say they weren't that way; I have more of a memory of a subtle doming effect.  

[James Edwards]

Andy, absolutely...  I was just pointing out this feature is used on #2 but not with such dramatic elevation - #15 being the prime example, #2 amd #3 also

[Daryn_Soldan]

The 4th at Medalist GC was mentioned on this thread last week. Another Norman influenced hole that may fit in the fortress category is the 8th at Meadowbrook Farms just west of Houston.  This hole's green complex is in stark contrast to the others on the course which tend to be rather low-key. I actually like this factor as it makes the hole memorable. The 8th does not have bunkers so I do not know how well it fits the fortress definition. It is essentially a "volcano"  with a 15-20 ft. drop down to creek floodplain on all sides. Unfortunatly, only the approach is cut to fairway height. This takes away any option of rolling or bouncing a recovery up the slope if the green is missed right, left or long. The slope is steep enough that balls roll to the base even on the sides and back. I bring this up because the Phil/Tiger flop shot that is required for recovery is not possessed by many players. I wonder what role the recovery shot plays in the design of a fortress style hole by today's architects.  

I believe the inherent difficulty of recovery shots on fortress or volcano style holes is a major reason they have been disappearing.  However, if the green surrounds have some sort of collection capability beyond the initial slope and are cut low enough to allow for the use of a putter, golfers of nearly all skill levels would have a chance (in theory). While I have not played the courses, this is what I see in the pictures of Langdon Farms and Kiawah. Of course, such a hole is different than the examples at Piping Rock or NGLA that are surrounded by rough and bunkers. They present more of a hit the green or your dead personality. Now I'm giving golf holes personalities, better wrap this up.
Just some thoughts.

-Daryn
 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Mike,

Thank you for your assistance..  I knew you would chime in with some great pictures of your course.

Cheers

Thank Ran for the pictures.  He was recently here updating The Ocean Course GCA course review.  Y'all should take a look...  Tons of pictures.