Arnie as architect

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am not sure I want to open this can of worms but I like to play courses that the Palmer Co. have done.  I am not always certain how much input Arnie has had and stories abound where he can't find the first tee.  I find that most of his courses are demanding off the tee, because he likes doglegs.  I think the strength of  his courses are on the par fives where he dares us to hit heroic shots.  Sometimes I wish he would use fairway bunkering better and some of his green complexes lack imaginatiion.  Yet I find that I enjoy playing courses that his company has designed.

top tier courses
Musgsrove Mill (Maybe his best)
CC at Woodmore
Shanty Creek
Old Tabby Links
Deacon's lodge
Treesdale

Second tier
Tartan Fields (tough neighborhood-Dublin Ohio)
TPC at Twin Cities
Mytle Beach National
Tralee (very disappointing)
Fawn Lake
Keswick Club
Ravines
The Carolina
Birkdale

I agree that they may not be "top 100" quality, I did enjoy playing most of his courses.  So why is he maligned as an architecht?

[Matt_Ward]

tommy:

This discussion has taken place previously -- my take is a simple one. AP follows a very predictable forumalic design -- think of it like a Happy Meal #3 at McDonald's. It's the same whether you order it in New York, North Carolina or Nevada.

You mentioned Musgrove Mill and I agree that the Clinton, SC layout is among the very best that AP was involved. Just keep in mind Joe Tomlinson played a role with the efforts there.

AP sold his name to assist the likes of developers to get the most out of their property values. Nothing wrong with that in making $$ but as far as architectural quality it's just not there -- again with very few instances. The designs for the most part are merely props to spread the likeness of AP and IMHO will have little real meaning a few years from now.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This is not the week to point out some of the Kings lesser abilities. I think Traylee is a good course with some great holes. The Bluffs in St. Francisville La is a very good course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamsen,

Are you sure that AP designed those courses and not Ed Seay, Eric Larsen or other associates ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, no I am not sure, that is why I was careful to say "Palmer Co".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamsen,

It might be very difficult information to come by unless you know people involved with each project.

[Jim Thompson]

As for the Ravines in Saugatuck, MI, Ray Wiltse was the lead for Palmer Design.  Arnie's only visit to the course was for the Grand Opening.  As a side note, 16 of the 18 holes follow the routing and general design of the original architect with the alterations coming only once ownership allowed Palmer Design to cross the ravine that runs along the 13th and across the 14th tee shot.  The original architect may reveal himself if he sees fit.  I'll also say its not the only set of plans he, the original architect, does not receive proper credit for, and to his credit he has taken the high road on numerous occasions on a number of courses referenced frequently on this site.

Jim Zabel was the construction manager for Landscapes Unlimited at Ravines; I believe he’s based in the U.P.  Much of the credit for “interest & quirk” goes to him.  He is a fantastic construction manager and pure “dirt guy”.  If he should ever be available to any of you, he is a fantastic catch and VERY good at value engineering a project. If you can get Kenny the shaper, can’t recall last name, you’ve got a great package. I learned an awful lot from observing their methods.  Had he been encouraged to be more creative, the Ravines would have been an incredible project, but it was limited by the “Palmer” formula. I never quite figured out how the forced carries fit into that formula by the way.

This should in no way be considered a criticism of the work Ray Wiltse did for the project.  He performed the task at hand just the way the company wanted it.  Having heard some of his ideas, I would love to see one of his courses sans PCDC formula.  He is an original thinker and I believe a true talent just waiting to be unleashed.  

Cheers!

JT

[Jason Hines]

Tommy,

To add to your list I would place Arbor Links towards the top, 300 acres of environmentally protected fauna, native grasses as well as no houses ever.  It is built in conjunction with the Arbor Day Foundation and that is a stark contrast to the AP course 2 miles from my house, where it is hard to putt at times due to the radial saw noise and the beer cart following you on every hole.

Jason

[Jfaspen]

I have played the legend, Myrtle Beach National (Southcreek, I think Arnold just put his name on it), and some course in Flordia at Palm Coast called Panther Creek or something...  

I thought The Legend was a very nice course, but I was still in HS when I played it and more concerned about how far I could hit the ball, less about the options a course presented.  

The Southcreek Course at MBN left something to be desired.. One day I will try to play the Kings North course there, but I think there are better to play in MB first.

The course down in Flordia was a nice tight track that used the lakes in the area well.  Again, it was before I started paying attention to those details..  

Jeff

[A_Clay_Man]

The only AP course I can think of, is near Carson City NV. The name escapes me but most of the feature shaping was varied and pretty decent. BUT, I found some "looks" as repetitious, and any semblence of flow, was hard to find. This is all in retrospect, but I'd say that the golf holes were o.k. to pretty good, for a housing project, but the course failed to inspire, in that way, "great" always seems to acheive.

I had a weird flashback to this AP course, when golfing one or two holes at Dalton Ranch in Durango. Made me wonder if Ken Dye did any apprentice work for Ed Seay?

[Joel_Stewart]

I believe its well known that Palmer has very little to do with his golf course architecture business but his knowledge and comments are mostly well taken.

I played Pebble Beach last week and after toured the new $2.5 million maintance facility and met the superintendent.  Discussing the changes at Pebble and the chain of command, he said it was himself and Palmer that decide on any changes or major work to the course.  They have no green committee, and virtually no one has the balls to make any suggestions to the course except for Palmer.  I haven't played Pebble in over 10 years and thought the course was almost perfect.  The mounding to the right of #2 and the bunkers look great.  The only thing that I didn't especially like where the new bunkers on the right of #18 which was Palmers idea.

[Evan_Green]

Not sure if Bay Hill would count as a palmer course? or is it Dick Wilson?

[Danno]

I would also say that Arbor Links Golf Course in Nebraska City NE is quite a nice change coming from a AP design.. Good bunkers with a flair of excitment.  Good condition and fun to play.. hour South of Omaha.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David Feherty has said that "(Palmer)...builds the best par 4s in golf".

[Jason Mandel]

Arnie was involved with two courses in the Philadelphia area.  Commonwealth National and Blue Bell CC.  

I have walked commonwealth years ago but nevery played it.  The thing everyone seems to say about is how damm hard the course is.  A lot of forced carries and things like that.  

I know Steve Schaeffer used to belong there so perhaps he can comment.

Blue Bell was said to be a fairly decent course, until they ruined any semblance of a golf course with all the houses that they inundated the course with.  I think its safe to say there's more OB on that course than any other in the Philadelphia area.

One other course he did was Laurel Creek in South Jersey.  Again, supposed to be a good course that has been hampered by housing.  I have never been there so I really can't say.

I played Presidio in San Fran, which I think the Palmer group did a lot of work on.  It was nice, but I wasn't thinking about it archie wise so I can't really comment.

Jason Mandel

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason Mandel,

I believe that Eric Larsen did the work at Commonwealth National, not AP, at least that's what Eric told me.

[Dan Grossman]

The only AP course I can think of, is near Carson City NV. The name escapes me but most of the feature shaping was varied and pretty decent. BUT, I found some "looks" as repetitious, and any semblence of flow, was hard to find.

Adam - I believe that you are referring to Dayton Valley (Golf Club or Country Club, whatever).  It was OK, but not great.  That whole area is pretty bleak.

Pat -

I (think) I understand what you are trying to do, but I don't think I buy it.  Regardless of who does the majority of the design work, Arnold Palmer lends his name to the course.  He should stand just as responsible for the merits or the faults of the course.  Fact is, the developer (as you are so fond of bringing up the viewpoint of) wanted Arnold Palmer's name on the design and not just Eric Larson, Ed Seay or whomever.

More generally, most of the AP courses I have played have been average or just above.  I think the best course of his that I have played is the one at Geneva National in Lake Geneva, WI.  I liked how the course played among the trees during the front nine and then moved into an open area near the lake for the background.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat & Jason

Erik Larsen was the project Architect at Commonwealth for PD. The original developer of Commonwealth wanted to build a demanding course and PD delivered. I'm not sure if Larsen was involved with Laurel Creek and Blue Bell but all 3 were built at approximately the same time. I was on the Golf/Green Committee when Seay and Larsen toured Commonwealth a few years ago at the request of ownership. They made some recommendations for minor work on various holes.I don't think any of them have been done. That's the problem with a non-member owned club. Ed Seay is a very entertaining guy and told some good stories at lunch. As you know, Commonwealth was rated in GD in PA's best 25 over the years from the mid teens to mid twenties until the last ranking when it disappeared. I got the impression that they were surprised at how well received it was.

Steve

[McCloskey]

Joel

Neither Arnie or his company had anything to do with the bunkering or mounding on the right side of #2 at Pebble.

Not sure about the new bunkering in the fairway on 18, but he also didn't have anything to do with the greenside bunkering or #18 green enlargement from a few years back.  All that was done, plus other things, by Nicklaus when he designed the new 5th hole.

[tlavin]

This should read "Ed Seay as architect", but let me just make a simple statement: If you're going near Hilton Head Island, you must play Old Tabby Links.  A slice of civil-war era heaven that is less than ten years old.  Goofy statement, but true.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I have played about a half dozen of the Palmer/Seay courses over the years, none of them horrible but none of them great. I think they churn out courses in the Doak 4-6 range, which is a good niche. I doubt that I would seek out a Palmer/Seay course if there were other options available, but I would choose them over someone like Arthur Hills. Although with one exception, the Ocean course.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I would agree that Old Tabby is very good.  Palmer has always seemed to produce quality if not superlative designs.  One reason for this is his lifelong pursuit of pleasing his fans.  

Mr.Palmers final round at Augusta was evidence of this as he shook hands, acknowledged his legions and went out with class.  

I would simply say that his very personality is evident in the way his design company operates.  They produce very playable and enjoyable courses that will for the most part never receive the kind of adulation garnered by others.  If a developer wanted a name architect to produce a very enjoyable if not spectacular course, Palmer makes a great choice.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I wonder what happen if Seay/Palmer built a course without real estate/resort development and for a private membership. As I stated before, I understand some of the better efforts of PD are The Tradition in LaQuinta, where AP has a home, and the Pinehurst Plantation course now known as Mid South where AP may have acquired an ownership interest.

Steve

[DPL11]

I wonder what happen if Seay/Palmer built a course without real estate/resort development and for a private membership. As I stated before, I understand some of the better efforts of PD are The Tradition in LaQuinta, where AP has a home, and the Pinehurst Plantation course now known as Mid South where AP may have acquired an ownership interest.

Steve

Steve,

I was at Mid South 2 weeks ago. It was in many newspapers that AP was buying the course, and was all a done deal until the Talamore ownership got involved and purchased the club.

The employees of the club seemed very surprised, but did confirm their new ownership as the Talamore people.


Doug

[Tommy Williamsen]

From what I can glean from those in the know at Musgrove Mill, Tom Fazio began the design wowrk but the original project had to be put on hold.  The man who was to become the head pro was a good friend of Arnies and consequently got the job.  Palmer made many site visits but Ken Tomlinson did the site work.