[Mark_Rowlinson]

In considering good classical golf architecture in Europe many of us probably think only of Great Britain and Ireland.  But there's much good stuff on the mainland - remember the wow factor of those photos of The Hague?

Here are a few suggestions to start the ball rolling.  Anyone want to flesh it out to a top 30 or 50?

Falsterbo
Halmstad
Royal Antwerp
Royal Belgique
Royal Zoute
Royal GC des Fagnes
Morfontaine
St Cloud
Chantilly
Fontainebleau
Puerta de Hierro
Milano
Villa d'Este
Biella
Hamburger (Falkenstein)
Royal Hague
Kennemer (B/C course)
Einhoven
De Pan (Utrecht)
Hilversumsche
Rungsted


Your turn.....

[T_MacWood]

Mark
What is Villa d'Este like? What do you know about the course's architect Peter Gannon--what little I've seen of his work looks interesting?

[ForkaB]

Tom

There is a website, www.golfvilladeste.com.  I looked it up as I'm going to be in the general vicinity in a few weeks.  From what I can see (not that I'm advocating making judgements based on pictures!) it's not worth the effort to seek it out (pretty claustrophobic).  But, I could be wrong......

[Evan_Green]

How about:

Royal Pedrena
Haagsche
Club Zuhr Vahr
St. Nom La Breteche
El Saler

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark
There is so much fantastic traditional golf on the continent and so few seem to pay much attention and seek these courses out.
I played a few on your list and of those I did might fall into an order like:
Royal Zoute
Morfontaine
El Saler
The Hague
Kennemer
Chantilly
Nordwidjk -( never can remember how to spell that.)
de Pan - Utrecht
Bremen (Club Zur Vahr)
Falstebro
St Cloud
Hilversum
Milano

Evan
Yes to Bremen, El Saler and The Hague but St Nom and Pedrena are some distance back. St Nom does however have one of the great clubhouses.
St Nom is not in the class of Chantilly, Morfontaine or St Cloud which are the pick of the Paris courses - from my experience - although all say Fontainebleau is terrific.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom,  I don't know Villa d'Este personally.  The various reviews of it in golf magazines etc don't suggest that it is too tight between the trees and the (not always reliable) Peugeot Guide suggests that you have to be able to move the ball both ways in order to score well.  Peter Gannon is a mystery to me, and a quick web search revealed nothing new.  He also had a hand in Milano, Varese, Degli Ulivi, Alpino di Stresa, Firenze Ugolino, sometimes in conjunction with someone called Blandford.  Cornich suggests, 'Based in Ireland in the 1920s, james [Peter] Gannon designed Villa d'Este in Italy (1924)* the original nine at Lenzerheide in Switzerland and the original nine at San Abdres de Llavaneras, Barcelona, Spain.'  * (Golfer's handbook gives 1926).

I'd happily put in El Saler - it strikes me that Javier Arana remains one of the unsung heroes of European golf design despite the unpsurge in Spanish golf tourism.  I, too, enjoyed Noordwijk but there was some criticism of it on a previous GCA post so I left it out (criticism of the par 3s as I recall, which may be fair, they're not up with the top links short holes).

I'm very interested to see Club zur Vahr at Bremen getting recommendation as it has been in the World Atlas of Golf since the very beginning, yet I can never update the entry as nothing seems to have taken place there in recent years and I have not been there myself.  Is Limburger another unsung hero of European golf design?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

A couple of further Italian golf websites with pics discovered while trying to find out more about gannon:

http://www.trelaghihotel.it/uk/golf.html
http://www.e-golftravel.com/italy/courses.htm

[Paul_Turner]

St Germaine looks charming.  And what's Frankfurt like?  Deauville (Simpson?).

[Paul_Turner]

I'd love to know more about these courses.  Their web sites are usually useless.

A french links called Granville was supposed to be decent before a road expansion ruined a stretch of holes.  The Peugeot guide is quite admanant about this!  (I like the guide, it's quite opinionated...just don't pay to much attention to the numbers/points they assign-not sure who wrote it).

I have some pics of De Pan that I posted ages ago.  If I have time, I'll repost.  It looks very nice.

I'd also like a report on the cuisine on offer at posh French clubs.  As Rich pointed out a while back, it's bound to better than anywhere else!

Hossegor?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,  

Frankfurt has been in World Atlas from day 1 but what I've seen in photos doesn't look anything special.  But then photos certainly don't tell all the story.  

Northern France may well have delights for ther serious collector of golfing period pieces.  

Dieppe is what remains of a one-time Willie Park layout of 1897.  

Dinard (1887) is the second oldest club in France (after Pau) and has some excellent old-fashioned links holes as might be found at one of the lesser Scottish links.  

Etretat dates from 1908 and once had Open Champion Arnaud Massy as its Professional.  Clifftop with lovely views.

Granville is a links from 1912 with Colt, Alison and Hawtree named as the architects.  I'm sure you can tell me all about it.

Hardelot Pins (1931) is often compared with the Red Course at The Berkshire, partly on account of its unusual distribution of holes.  Simpson had a hand - how much remains I do not know.

On good advice I wrote (without knowing the course personally [very dangerous!]) that Simpson's course at Deauville is an essay in subtle understatement.  

I didn't include Le Touquet in my original list because I have heard conflicting accounts of what has been done to the courses in the process of 'restoration.'  As a Colt scholar I'm sure you can tell me definitively.

Can anyone add substance to any of the above?

[Steve Okula]

Of courses I've seen, I would rate St. Germain (Colt, cerca 1920) above everything else in Paris with the possible exception of Morfontaine. St. Germain is nearly pure Colt, I believe, whereas places like St. Cloud and Chantilly have been altered considerably over the years. At least in the Paris area, Colt trumps Simpson.

I've seen a few in Spain, and definitely list El Saler among the top 5, could be the absolute best but for present management. It is operated as a draw to fill the state operated hotel, or parador, and they milk it to death with packing in the tourists.

Also in Spain, you can't beat Valderrama for atmosphere and class. Also just down the road are Sotogrande and Las Brisas. All three are by R.T. Jones Sr., and all three much loved by all those who know them. I'll be prepared for howls of righteous indignation, but I won't credit it from people who have not been there.

I haven't had the chance to see it yet, but I've heard a lot about Praia do Rey, a links course by Cabell Robinson on the west coast of Portugal. Has anyone seen it?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Steve,

Thanks for your comments, first about Parisian courses and then about Iberian ones.  

I played El Saler years ago and had the place to myself, so I could play two balls on each hole.  It was then in very good condition.  However, they played the Seve Trophy there last year and the greens had been vandalised.  Also, the camera angles of the TV coverage somehow to contrived to minimise the architectural strengths.  So the 17th, for instance, was shown from behind the green, so that it looked like a flat hole with no bunkers and no trouble between tee and green.  You and I know that it's a superb hole.  We also know what a daunting prospect the view from the back tee on the 18th is.  It looked a nothing hole on TV.  What a shame!

I'm interested in your views on Las Brisas, Valderrama and Sotogrande.  I'm sure you are right to presume that there will be howls of derision, but I'd like to know what it is about those courses which you particularly admire - I've played none of them.

I hear varying comments about the Portuguese courses.  sadly, there's nothing old except Porto - even Estoril is post-war.  The original course at Vilamoura has its fans. San Lorenzo seems to have the credentials to have got itself voted European No 1 a few times.  Again, further objective critical views would be welcome.


Mark.

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