A golf hole mulligan for arm chair architects?

[Ran Morrissett]

This came about from a discussion with George Blunt this morning but I am shamelessly claiming credit for it now.If you could re-do (be it restoration or a complete gut job) any hole, which would you like to attempt? For instance, the 5th at Pebble would have been an obvious answer until this year. Or maybe it is to restore the alternate 8th fairway at Riviera as Brad Klein has noted. Or maybe it is to rework the 18th at Cypress (but you would have to say how).I haven't made up my mind. In general, I think if the back at County Down had one more great hole to go along with 13 and 15, I reckon it could challenge National GL of America as my favourite course.  I would like to say redo the 17th at County Down but I don't know what I would/could do to it. Then I think about the 14th at County Down and could that be made into a fascinating Redan style hole?? Maybe.What one hole would others like to do?

[James Clifford]

Behind Melbourne West, my favourite course is Cruden Bay in northeast Scotland (quirkiness be damned). I am not long on specifics here but I would move the 15th tee up into the dunes behind the 14th green, placing the golfer perched above the North Sea. The hillside that blocks the hole and makes it blind would be reduced and the golfer would have a view of a green similar to the 15th at Ballybunion (except pointing inland). A hole of that magnitude replacing such a boring blind shot and I would move to Cruden Bay from Melbourne.

[Tom_Doak]

If you moved the 15th tee at Cruden Bay maybe you could fix the bathtub 14th green too!My own mulligan would have to be something from Black Forest -- probably #18, a potentially great hole with a screwed-up green.  #3 is another candidate.Of consulting clients, the two worst are #12 at Garden City and #7 at Waterville.  The owners of Waterville just don't get how much a short hole over water detracts from the links experience.  Incidentally, without this hole, would all of you be more inclined to consider it as a Top 100 course?Of any course I've ever seen, wow, that's a tough one.  I'll have to ponder a while.  My first thought is the 17th at the TPC, not because it ruins that course, but because of the damage it caused to modern design.

[Tom Naccarato]

IN defense of the 18th at Cypress there are pictures that well warrant how much it has changed over the years.  There seemed to be many bunkers throught out the hole where to today that has changed drastically thanks to the efforts of one of it's older members who had them removed because they did not fit in the scheme of his game.This hole has been much maligned over the years and I can surely say if it was in the shape of it's designer today the subject would never come up.Mulligan for a golf hole? Hmmmmm..... How come all of the holes mentioned are from classic courses and none mentioned are from new courses???Me thinks this is because so much tinkering goes on and the loss of quirkiness as being a exciting factor in golf has labeled golf holes that were created out of neccessity because of existing objects i.e. a road alongside the green;a fence in the line of play, sand dunes to close together and way to hilly to go over so play it between them; etc.etc.Here in Southern California, (and Tom Doak please agree with me on this one) where there are literally hundreds of golf courses that deserve mulligans, and they are still being built!

[Clark]

I would like to re-do either the 17th or 18th holes at Somerset Hills, NJ. The back nine needs to ask the player to hit another controlled, long iron approach. I don't know which of those two holes other than whichever I could get the most land to add some length. It is a pity the course ends with two fizzlers, because the rest is magic.

[DBE]

Clark, I belonged to Somerset Hills for four years and the first two years the Golf Committee was experimenting with the nines.  The nines as they are being layed now were reversed.  Think of ending with a 440 yard par four (thru the race track),

[DBE]

as I was saying......a 200 plus short hole and a decent par five.  Those are much better finishing holes than how Tillie laid the finish out.  Augusta Nat'l's nines were resversed as well.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,For a modern hole desperately in need of help, I would unhesitatingly select the 18th at Whistling Straits. Ted Sturges put it best when he said that it looked like Mike Strantz on steriods had designed it, which is a great pity. The course deserves a clever and original finishing hole, and the present one "ain't it".

[JohnV]

I would redesign the 7th hole at Pumpkin Ridge's Witch Hollow course to be the way that Bob Cupp designed it rather than the way that John Fought and the owners changed it.  The hole is a 623 yard par 5 with a downhill tee shot.  The original design had it going to the right from the tee and then turning left to the green.  If you wanted to go for it in two, you would hit the second shot across an area of long fescue and over a bunker that would also jut out into the fairway from the left threatening the second shot.  Otherwise you played around dogleg.Unfortunately when Mr. Fought and the owners went out there with the final drawings from Cupp, they noticed a line of 5 oak trees that really looked nice and would have to be removed to build the hole.  So, they straightened the hole out and the huge oaks now overhang the fairway and take the entire right side out of play.  The bunker that was supposed to be coming in from the left, became a cross bunker 120 yards from the green that nobody would try to carry because the trees made it a dumb play (the USGA had the bunker taken out, which opened added some options to the hole.)  Unfortunately, these changes also meant that a lot of drives and second shots get hooked onto the 8th green and fairway, making it the one dangerous spot on the course.For those who have been there, imagine a hole playing where the cart path currently is with the trees removed.I would also redesign the 18th hole at Bandon Dunes into a par 4 that plays along the creek rather than the par 5 that it is today.

[Mike Hendren]

Bumping this great thread from the early days.

Crank up the dozer!

MIke

[gookin]

Any votes for the 17th green at Pete Dye ? It gets mine.  Heck, I can't even enjoy 18. I am so frazzled coming off 17.

[ian]

LA Country Club, 6th Hole

A downhill tee shot, lay-up is most likely option.



This photo is from high on the hill and it shows how the hole
button hooks back to the right. You likely will end up playing "back" at this green. The slope of the green dictates this approach.



What I don't know is whether it was designed with a clear hill on the right, and a view to the green, which would change the way the hole plays (and what I think of the hole).

What I do know, is I have never liked a dogleg that exceeds 60 (even that is likely too severe) degrees, it removes all risk and reward possibilities from the tee. It simply struck me that a better hole could have been built here, or two better holes could have come from using the land differently where the 6th and par 3 7th (which I like) are.

Just my kick at the question.