Lundin or Elie?

[Robert Thompson]

Hey folks: On an upcoming trip to Scotland (end of April) we have one spot open during the next to last day of a eight day golfing adventure. We're playing Kingsbarns in the morning, but I'm wondering what GCA types think about Elie or Lundin Links. Both have time available and I'm just trying to suss out what would be more interesting architecturally and in terms of playability. The group consists of three single digit handicappers, and we're already playing Crail a day later. Comments? Suggestions? Both Elie and Lundin, from the reading I've done, look comparable....

Thanks in advance.

Robert

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Robert, I have played Lundin and took just a peak at Elie, but I can't think of a more really surprizing course then Lundin around 6:00 at night. The sun should be in a good spot during your trip which makes it even better.  Make sure you look closely at Leven while your at it!

Elie looked delightful, but I took the time instead to go to Crail which was pretty cool also. Not the strongest of courses, but you'll find the setting pretty awe-striking for a links.

But if you want stength, then Lundin's your course. One of the best transition Links-to-Parkland-to-Links  you'll ever see, and the holes are alarmingly good, despite what Tom Doak says about them in the Confidential Guide, which has been discussed here before ad infinitum.

The also have a website and a Discussion Group which is pretty cool for a links club like this.

[Doug Wright]

Robert,

I've played Elie and I haven't played Lundin so take that into account. However, I loved Elie. We played it after Crail Balcomie, and it had a terrific combination of quirk (eg the very first tee shot over the hill where the starter uses a periscope to check if it's OK to play!   ), variety and scenery. It's not the best course we played lo those many (14) years ago because I I value memorability and have some memory lapses about holes on the course except those at the beginning, the end  and the few seaside holes (which are clear as a bell in my mind),  and Lundin may well be its match, but you won't be disappointed either.

Here are the GCA course descriptions:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/elie000139.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/lundin1.html

Best,
 

[Thomas_Brown]

I'm the opposite of Tommy on this one.
I played Elie in 1990 and visited Lundin briefly in 1992, but didn't play.  

Everybody waxes philosophically about Elie, but to me it has way too many par 4's.  I like par 5's and 3's.  Some of the par 4's are fun, but there are so many great links to be found over there - Elie to me is a 3rd tier course over there.

[Dan Grossman]

Robert,

On my first trip to Scotland, Elie was my second favorite course that we played. (Right behind Cruden Bay).  I actually have gotten blue in the face several times extolling the virtues of Elie.  THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW HOW COOL ELIE IS UNTIL YOU PLAY IT.  It looks easy on the card, but let me tell you, the final 8 holes are a bear.  The front nine, starting w/ the blind tee shot is lots of fun and the back nine kicks your butt.  As I said on a different thread, the second shots (or chips) into the short par 4s on the front nine at Elie are some of the most interesting and fun shots I have ever had.  (ever!)  

I haven't played Lundin, but keep in mind that Levin and Lundin used to be one good golf course and then had to separate due to crowding issues.  

I can say without a doubt that if you enjoy good golf and a little bit of quirk, you will fall in love w/ Elie.

(Have a drink at the pub next to the 4th tee!)  

[ForkaB]

Robert

I've played both courses many times, and while each is worth playing, if you have to choose one my vote would go to Elie, for reasons explained by Dan.  Despite what Tommy says, the parkland holes at Lundy are an atrocious abomination (including one of the worst "par" 5's on any good-great course I have seen), necessitated by the unfortunate decision to create two courses (Ludin and Leven) in the space where one course fitted very nicely for so many years, thank you.  Also, if you are into old clubhouses with the smell of cedarwood and the uncertainty as to whether the old gentlemen in their faded leather chairs are dead or just sleeping, do lunch at Elie (bring your coat and tie!).  Elie does have the unusual routing of having 16 "par" 4's and two "threes", but if you are worrying about "par" when you are playing any great links course, you are probably on the wrong side of the planet.

All that being said, if I were you, Robert, I'd skip Crail and play both!

[ed_getka]

Dan and Scott Clem both strongly endorsed Elie when I was looking for another course. It just comes down to what you guys like. Dan and Scott know what I like and I know what they like, so their opinion carries weight with me.If you like quirk, Elie is the place. If you want championship golf, another course may be for you.
Richard sums it up best with his planet remark methinks.
Have a great trip and let us know what you liked and didn't.

[Mike Hendren]

Based upon my only trip over, I'm totalling guessing that it doesn't make any difference whether you play Crail, Lunden, Leven, Elie, Kilspindie, Peterhead, Fraserburg, Brora, Golspie, Fortrose & Rosemarkie, etc.  The only mistake would be to pass on at least one round at this genre of courses down by the water.  I suspect each is immensely satisfying, if not thrilling, for those who love the game and cotton to golf course architecture.  

In other words, there are no wrong decisions.  I hope I am fortunate to research that theory periodically over the next twenty years or so.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

That seems very wise to me - well said, Mike.  One certainly can't go wrong with any of those and that is among the things that makes golf in Scotland so great.

Now you might disagree with what I add, though:

I'd only advise playing those courses AFTER the "bigger" names have been tackled.  That is, while I have enjoyed immensely playing several of those you list, and some others of their type, if I am a visitor with only so much time available, I don't use that precious time for these courses before the big names have been seen.  They became big names for a reason.  

Would you give up time that could be spent on The Old Course to play Elie, if you only have so much time?

TH

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I agree with most of the above comments.  Haven't played Lundin.  I have often thought if I was going to live in Scotland for a period, rather than St. Andrews I would pick Elie.  What is it, 8 miles from the 1st tee of the Old Course?  Elie is right on the water and located in the village.  Scotland golf at its best.  While par is not that important, variety is, and there needs to be more par 3's and par 5's, but that is about all one can find wrong.

[Marty Bonnar]

By way of injectiing some reality into these somewhat rose-tinted proceedings, can I just say that whilst Lundy and Elie are indeed picturesque, endearing, quaint little hamlets during the months of say, May to October, from November to April they are rain-lashed, wind-swept and de-serted. You, my dear American cousins, would go STIR-CRAZY!!!!!! (Mind you. the golf is playable practically all year long.....)

FBD.

PS You might be better off trying to book a trip to El Pedlara.....

[Mike Hendren]

Tom (Trophy Hunter) Huckaby,

I'd say two trophies to one gem is the perfect ratio if one is roaming.  If in one area, I'd drop that to 1:1.

I am still having nightmares about getting lost in Edinburgh on my way to East Lothian, battling the traffic, roundabouts, left-side driving, a dwindling gas tank and a screaming call of nature!  Mommy!

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I am not a trophy hunter at all.  I'm a "best course" hunter.  Again, these courses get acclaim for a reason.  If I have 6 days and I'm concentrating on the general Edinburgh area and surrounds, hell yes I hit each of these before I go to the "gems"

TOC - twice if possible
Carnoustie
Muirfield
N. Berwick
Gullane #1
Kingsbarns

That doesn't leave much time for the Elie's of the world, see?

In a perfect world we have more time.  Why isn't the world perfect?

Re driving, well... getting a bus and driver was the best thing we ever did.  

TH

ps - I on on the road to SoCal in about an hour... yahoooooo!

pss - I have done Scotland trips both ways - in fact one time we did it nearly exactly like you say re the trophy/gem ratio... I know of what I speak here.  The all-trophy trip was better, because bottom line was we played better courses.

[Marty Bonnar]

Minor Thread Hijack Alert!

Tom,
If you're heading of to KPIII soon, good luck. Has anyone thought of getting a webcam set up and giving us some vicarious pleasure!?!?!?!

FBD.

[THuckaby2]

Martin, you'd likely be bored to tears.  Most of us are much wittier on here than we are in person... and you sure wouldn't see much quality golf either!

That being said, married grown men aren't supposed to have as much fun as we tend to have on these things....

Now back to your discussion of Scottish lesser-known gems.

 

[Robert Thompson]

Thanks all for the comments -- looks like there are a lot of Elie fans in the group.
Our trip, as scheduled, includes Montrose, North Berwick, Muirfield, TOC, Eden Course, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns, Crail (I am quite keen on seeing it...), Lundin or Elie.
This is my second trip in two years -- the first time round we played Belleisle, Turnberry (both courses), Kingsbarns, Carnoustie (both courses), TOC, The New Course, Murcar, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Brora and The King's Course at Gleneagles.

Anyway, I've have or will play at lot of the tier-one courses, but I'm very keen on seeing some low-key courses (like Murcar and Belleisle on our first trip).

I'm sure there will be more Elie vs. Lundin in this thread -- I have a couple of days to make a decision!

R

[THuckaby2]

Robert:

Sounds like a hell of a great trip to me!

And my comments to Mike are more regarding first-time vistors.  For repeat visits, heck yeah, your itin sounds perfect - what a great mix! That's darn near exactly what I did after I had knocked off all the top-tier, and it was fantastic.  We then did another trip of pretty much lesser-known gems only, and that was cool too.  But I will say this though:  coming back a fourth time and re-doing top tier only was as good as golf gets...

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Robert -

Sounds like a great trip, on my first trip to Scotland in 2001 we played a lot of the courses that you hit.  (Glasgow Gailes, Barassie, Western Gailes, Stonehaven, Cruden Bay, Murcar, Royal Aberdeen, Montrose, The New Course, Kingsbarns, Elie, Crail (Craighead), Panmure, Carnoustie, the Kings Course and Loch Lomond).  My favorite rounds were the ones that were not the big-name courses.  For that reason, Elie was my second favorite course behind Cruden Bay.  

The only course that I might urge you to reconsider is Montrose.  I found it to be a nice course, but nothing truly special.  It was one of my least favorite courses that I played when I was in Scotland.  If you need to play a course in that area, I would recommend Panmure instead.  (Finegan reviews it in his Scotland book).  The first 3 holes and last 3 holes are pretty boring, but the middle twelve are nothing short of spectacular.  The rumpled-ness (is that a word?) of the linksland is really cool and there are some terrific holes.  

[Robert Thompson]

Dan: Montrose is on the itinerary largely because, from my reading, it sounded interesting, and it is generally being considered a warm-up round. Lastly, we're playing it on a Sunday, and Sunday rounds aren't always the easiest to find...

R

[THuckaby2]

Sounds like a great trip, on my first trip to Scotland in 2001 we played a lot of the courses that you hit.  (Glasgow Gailes, Barassie, Western Gailes, Stonehaven, Cruden Bay, Murcar, Royal Aberdeen, Montrose, The New Course, Kingsbarns, Elie, Crail (Craighead), Panmure, Carnoustie, the Kings Course and Loch Lomond).  My favorite rounds were the ones that were not the big-name courses.  For that reason, Elie was my second favorite course behind Cruden Bay.  

Dan - out of those, the only one that I'd call a big name is Carnoustie.  Cruden Bay has become kinda like that.. and Kingsbarns as brand new when you were there...

So no surprise Cruden Bay was among your two favorites - in that list it would be my number 1, and thank god we had the foresight to play there my first long golf trip way back in the 80s!  But I'd put each of Carnoustie and Kingsbarns above Elie.  And no need to battle re Kingsbarns again - we've been down that road!

Cheers.  Just wanted to kinda clarify what I meant, anyway, re big names.  Now I am off to tackle I-5.  See ya!

TH

[Robert Thompson]

A battle over Kingsbarns -- what's to say? An amazing new course in an amazing location. Great fun, with great attention to detail. A real treat to play.

R

[Stan Dodd]

My two cents... having played Elie, Lundy and Leven
Elie is great fun with some teeth at the end. The lack of variety is not noticeable as some of the short fours are driveable, depending on wind. Some 1/2 par holes.  The pub on 4 is great for post round drink, I watched the final round of the Open there.  

Lundy's orignial holes are great the inlan/upland holes are so-so.  18 is a difficult hole. Solid course.

Leven wonderful golf, warm reception. More of a working mans club.  reminded me a bit of a good muni.  With some good quirk and also a strong finish.

I would play in order
 
Elie
Leven
Lundy
But you can not go wrong with any.  I haven't played a bad course in Scotland.
Cheers
Stan

[Dan Grossman]

Kingsbarns, at the time, wasn't a big name.  Carnoustie is and still was a big name when we were there.  Western Gailes is a pretty big name.  It is on a lot of tours.  

I really loved Carnoustie, but it was probably third behind Elie.  The two courses are very different.  Elie is fun and Carnoustie is just plain hard.  My experiences were very different at the two courses as well.  Elie, my friend and I played by ourselves, there was no one on the golf course and it was tons of fun.  At Carnoustie we played w/ some jackass pro from the central valley who hit the ball EVERYWHERE (he actually got in the Barry Burn to recreate Van De Velde's shot on 18), the round was slow, etc.  So, while I loved the course, I can't recommend it as wholeheartedly because of the experience.

Kingsbarns, well, whatever.  I didn't like that place very well.  A good portion of it had to do w/ the crowds and length of the round.  One of the most enjoyable things about playing golf in Scotland is playing fast and being the only person on the golf course.  You can't do that at any of the Big Names.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

My vote is for Elie....some the ebst greens as far as condition and speed.  The ball rolls great there.  Only a few holes along the water but hey the town is great too.  Stop in and have a pint there at the B&B with the Braids Pub sign out front.  Nice folks.....Note the women have to enter the course on a different route than the men.  I played there with my aunt when she visited in 02'.  Her other partners were womena nd they loved this course the best for views and they all commented on the turf quality.  Note they played Carnoustie and they were glad to find a course to have fun on.  Not too diffiicult but had some nice green complexes and par 3's and short par 4's...not alot of drivers hit here.

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