Klein's DISCOVERING DONALD ROSS book

[John_Conley]

Got my copy last night.  Hats off to Brad and the people at Sleeping Bear.  

Initial thoughts:
**Nice that someone chronicled which courses he did and didn't do and tried to figure out just how involved he was.  The format in back is very easy to follow.
**Interesting narrative on certain courses coupled with stunning photos makes this Floridian eager to get back "up north" to play great older courses.
**Just the right amount of old memorabilia/correspondence to satisfy those looking for heavy detail without boring guys like me who are inspired by colorful photos.
**Impressive input from heavyweights Jack Nicklaus (back cover comments) and Pete Dye (Foreword on Donald Ross) shows a level of respect for Brad's opinions.

Anyone who won't like this book probably wouldn't be buying it anyway.  For those that do, it will serve as the Bible for examination of Donald Ross's personality and design style.  It also dispels some of the myths, like saying Pinehurst's crowned greens are the result of years of topdressing instead of architechtural intent.

Haven't read it too close, just starting by flipping through the pictures and reading in detail about the courses I'm familiar with.

[John_Sheehan]

John C-
Thanks for the post. I haven't gotten my copy yet. Would you happen to know how much information there is in the book about Siwanoy CC in Bronxville, NY.?

[Brad Klein]

Figures you'd ask about a course I didn't cover - I'll have to leave Siwanoy for vol. II.

[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of friends of mine from this board played Siwanoy this Monday.  Unfortunately, I had to beg off, and only got to hear their unadulterated praise for SCC all Tuesday at Quaker Ridge!

They compared it favorably to Plainfield, and said it was a solid 8 on the Doak Scale.  Makes me think that there's a hidden gem up there that this group would enjoy.  

[GeoffreyC]

I was lucky enough to join my old friend Bill V and my new one, Pete Galea at Siwanoy CC on Monday morning.  I live not more than 5 minutes away but never had the opportunity to play it before.  Knowing the land around the course I was expecting more of a tree infested tight course but I was totally wrong.

The genius of Donald Ross is more than evident at Siwanoy. This shouldn’t surprise me any more when I get to play a relatively unchanged Ross course.  He had an uncanny ability to find great natural greensites and placed tees where distance control was required to have a flat lie for the approach.  Frequently an overaggressive tee shot left a downhill lie to an uphill green.  There are many examples of this at Siwanoy but none more evident than the 340 yard 8th where a 3-wood tee ball left a severe downhill approach over a creek to an uphill green with a false front.  A sand wedge approach to a front pin spun off the front and took a minute to very slowly roll 30 yards down the fairway! The fine opening hole requires similar restraint off the tee but there is more of a turbo-boost possibility with that tee shot. However, it that case you have a flat lie but a much poorer view of the green and pin.  Its always something to decide about how to proceed at Siwanoy. On almost all the holes you have to think about placement and club selection off the tee.  

At Siwanoy Ross also used the creek as a diagonal hazard on a few holes.  Here none better than the fine 520 yard par 5 5th hole where the creek challenges the 2nd shot extending from (guess) 130 yards from the green on the right side to about 90-100 yards on the left as it crosses the fairway.  Again the greensite is up on a hill maximizing the yardage (the whole course is only 6463 yards).  The hazard again comes into play in a similar manner on the fine par 5 18th (532 yards).  

The few downhill approaches at Siwanoy come on the 210 yard par 3 3rd and 199 yard 11th.  

The greens have excellent movement and internal contouring but are not overly severe.  Bunkers both around the greens and fairways are in character and well placed.

The Donald Ross courses I have played recently (Siwanoy and Metacomet) are a joy to play.  There is more great architecture packed into them then great courses like Quaker Ridge and certainly more thought involved before each shot.  I can’t wait to play my next Ross course whichever one it may be. If you get a chance to play Siwanoy don’t turn it down. (Sorry Mike   )

[aclayman]

Geoffery- Did Pete bring his butter-like swing with the perfect amount of apathy? And more importantly did you get to meet the boys?

[John_Conley]

No mention of Siwanoy, except in the directory of the 399 courses Brad lists as Ross courses.

I had a chance to start reading yesterday, so let me tell you what it is and isn't.  It is a biography on the life of Donald Ross, which undoubtedly covers his golf courses.  It is not a book just about Donald Ross courses.

INTERLACHEN, where I grew up caddying, doesn't get a mention.  It was a Willie Watson design that Ross remodeled and was the 7th Ross course to host the U.S. Open.  Said another way, it is just one of the 399 + 70 courses he worked on... although time has seen is rise to be considered among the best courses he was associated with.

The courses that are covered are his most influential - defined by me as "milestones" in his life.  OAKLEY is his first, ESSEX his next.  PINEHURST where he spend the most time.  TEUGEGA where he had a girlfriend.  SEMINOLE his last great work.  Etc....

So far the parts I've read were fascinating, with a high level of detail for events from the 19th Century.

[BillV]

If you detailed every great, interesting course of Ross, you'ld need need 3 volumes.

[Craig_Rokke]

I need to re-enroll in my Jr High speed reading class because the number of good
architecture books that keep piling up on my nightstand is far out-pacing my reading capability. I think Klein's book just moved to the top of the list.

[John_Sheehan]

Brad-
Sorry, didn't mean to put you on the spot! But as BillV pointed out, you'd need at LEAST three volumes to cover them all.

GeoffreyC and JohnC -
Thanks for the info.

I have played Siwanoy a number of times, thanks to good friends who are members, and who live about a Driver + 3W from the clubhouse.  Wonderful course, fun to play.  There is a actually a fairly detailed (and bizarre! See: "The Siwanoy Murders") history of the club at their web site:  http://www.siwanoycc.com/siwpages/index.htm

Unfortunately the web site does not have much information on the course architecture itself.  The first PGA Championship was played at Siwanoy in 1916.  The site also says that:
"In 1952 a number of changes were made in the golf course under the supervision of another famous golf course architect, Robert Trent Jones. At that time more than $60,000 was spent to modernize bunkers, reshape greens and build new tees. In this work many bunkers and sand traps which had handicapped the poorer golfers were said to have been eliminated, and new traps were constructed to “tighten up” the course for the low handicap players. The length of the course was increased to about 6,400 yards. Par remained at 71 strokes after this construction."

I have not played there for a number of years, and it was before I really had a good background in GCA. But even with lack of knowledge, I found it to be a terrific course.  If RTJ did make changes, they are not readily apparent, as the course has a definite Ross feel to every inch of it. Perhaps RTJ, at that stage in his career, was sensitive to Ross's work. As GeoffreyC points out, there are so many decision to be made on the tee on how to attack the holes. I also thought the par-3's were strong. I cannot remember the number of it, but one of the par threes plays across a small valley, from a somewhat elevated tee, to a gree that is oriented at about 45 degrees from the line of play, with a slope that falls off sharply to the right. Wonderful hole. It is indeed a course that is a treat to play.

[dick_cesana]

GREAT READ! no one knows ROSS better than Brad! I would be remiss if I did not say how disappointed I am that there is not a COFFEE TABLE version available for Xmas gifts.

[John_Sheehan]

All,
Had dinner Saturday night with my "Siwanoy" friends in San Francisco. What is not on the website is the fact that over the last few years quite a bit of restoration work has taken place at Siwanoy.  From what they could tell me, it sounds like Arthur Hills, using the original Ross drawings, aerials, etc. has undone quite a bit of RTJ's work, restored Ross bunkers that had been removed in the RTJ work, and led a very extensive tree removal effort. They believe that over 1,000 trees were removed.  Also, what had been a wooded, swampy area between holes 15 and 16 has now been replaced with a small lake.

I have not personally played Siwanoy since these changes, so I have no first hand knowledge. I had previously exchanged emails with Pete Galea prior to his playing Siwanoy. In those email exchanges I had told him the only thing I could think of to improve Siwanoy would be to thin the trees out.  Given the extensive thinning effort that has taken place, after playing the newly thinned Siwanoy, besides questioning my sanity, Pete must have thought I was on a campaign to deforest the entire Westchester county area.  

[GeoffreyC]

John

You are correct about Arthur Hills working at Siwanoy. This was explained to us by the superintendents who I might add do a wonderful job there.

The only objectionable change from the Ross (plans as described to us) is on the 12th hole which is another of those wonderful par 4's where you must choose between laying up with less than driver or be faced with what could be a severe downhill lie. Ross originally used the stream here as a hazard in front of the green. This was changed to a full sized pond with some beautiful (but out of character) stonework at the greens edge. This to my mind is the only out of character feature on the course and Hills did a really good job on the rest of the course.

The long 15th (which was probably a 5 par at one time) again uses the terrain and upslope in the driving area perfectly and the stream again comes into play short of the green and on a diagonal. This is the hole shown in the MGA book but now it looks MUCH BETTER after Hills worked on it. The lake is between the 15th and 16th holes and comes into play on the great 16th hole. Chew off what you can of the lake on the right and you get a better angle into the small putting surface. This green was redone by Hills and is not really Ross-like.  We were told the original was extremely small and contoured.

Hills could come back and restore some size to several of the greens where they have obviously shrunk over the years.  The first hole has some amazing mounding that could create great angles and pin locations when restored.  

[Peter Galea]

First day back to reality, after two rounds in Westchester, two at Old Kinderhook and one at Rip Van Winkle (Ross). I have photos and will post as soon as possible. Siwanoy was elegant. Ross is pure genius.

[Brad Klein]

Dick, didn't your edition come with legs? What do you want, a Kramer-style coffee table book?

It's 2.5 pounds, $85 rack rate, 200 color photos, many of them large format/full/or double-page. I didn't realize we then needed to do a museum-sized version. My suggestion is go buy it for your friends for XMAS anyway.

Besides, I was thinking of you when I got the photo of Metacomet in there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I just obtained the book today, and did some quick skim reading of several chapters.

So far, I like everything about the book.

I hope you, Geoff, Dan, Tom and others continue to produce the books we golfers and architectual fans love.

[BCrosby]

Brad -

Terrific book.  The amount of historical research that went into it pays off on every page.  Very impressive.

A question.  Ross himself travelled extensively but visited most of his courses just once.  What evidence is there as to the frequency of Frank Maples or others making follow-up visits during the construction phase?  I know Maples and other Ross employees were hired by some courses to implement Ross' design.  How frequently were they used?  Given Maple's duties at Pinehurst and the difficulties of travel in the 1920's, I would guess that Maples, et al. did not travel to many construction sites.  

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that so many good Ross courses were built without some sort of supervsion from Ross or his people.  (Construction foremen and crews in many small towns had never even seen a golf course before, let alone build one.) I wish there had been more on this in the book.  Or is it just a question of there being no record of it?

Not to nit-pick, but the Bon-Aire Vanderbilt course (NLE) is listed as having been in Atlanta.  I believe that should be Augusta.

[BCrosby]

Brad -

Sorry, let me be more specific.  Your book does a wonderful job of clarifying the construction process and the people involved for Ross courses in the NE and the mid-Atlantic.  

My question is really with regard to Ross courses farther away from his offices in Pinehurst and in R.I.  Courses that were harder and more expensive to send a construction crew to.  The deep south or the Midwest, for example.

Also, any idea why so few Ross courses in nearby states like Virginia and South Carolina?  

Thanks.