[John Morrissett]

About five years ago when I was living in NJ, I had David Staebler up to play Madison GC, near Morristown.  Madison is a fun, neat nine-holer consisting of five one-shotters and four two-shotters.  During the round, David remarked that if I liked Madison I would like Walnut Lane, a municipal course in Philadelphia.

One day the next winter, a friend from work and I drove down to Philly to see what the story on Walnut Lane is.  We were reassured before teeing off, as we met David (a member of Rolling Green) and a friend of his from Huntingdon Valley.  If members from those two clubs played there several times each winter, it must be good.

We were not disappointed.  The course was quite good, requiring the player to play every shot.  Our only concern was the trees.  We are still waiting to hear whether the course is playable in the summer with the leaves out.  

The pictures are black-and-white intentionally, as I thought that would better convey the course in the winter.

[Ran Morrissett]

Brother, How much is a round there and how long did it take to play?

[Peter Galea]

Nice job John, makes me want to put a roll of Tri-X in the Nikon. Why are most players hung up on par of 72? Is it a "manly" thing or do they feel shorted by not having the magic number? It's the card & pencil mentality.

[Mike_Cirba]

Walnut Lane has a good deal of architectural interest (as do most Alex Findlay courses), but I do have to caution everyone.

The last time I played there, on a cold November day, after 5 hours we stood on the 13th tee.  

That isn't fun no matter how good the course is.

Irrespective, great profile John.  The pictures were artistically done, as well.

[BillV]

Haven't been to Walnut Lane, but will this winter.  To echo Mike's sentiment, Alex Findlay courses are generally very high in character, although several have fallen into sad shape. 5 hrs for 13 holes hmmmmmmmmm  

The character of the land can lend to great holes only if the architect has sensitivity.  Beauty is where you find it.

[John Morrissett]

Ran--

It has been almost three years since my last round there (David and T were to play there this March, but only seven holes were open because of the frost).  At that time I believe it cost $17 for 18 holes on a weekend.  If there were two or three of us, a round would take about 2 1/2 hours.

Pete--

I agree with you about the total "par" of a course.  At the Lane, you play in less time and get to use every club in the bag.  Sounds like what you want from a course, eh?

Mike--

Your experience there is shocking.  I suppose I played there twice in December, once in February, twice in March and even once in April.  Only one of those times do I remember having to wait (and even then, we finished in under three hours).  What year was your awful round?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

That's very encouraging to hear.  My last round there was about ten years ago, but quite memorable for the reason I mentioned.  

Interestingly, in talking about courses where par is less than 72 and you get to use every club in your bag, I played a course called "Woods Golf Center" in nearby Norristown a few weeks back.  It is one of the most interesting par three courses I've ever played, with 18 holes ranging from 113 to 248 yards with everything in between.  

It was designed by John Wood and Vic Pignoli from 1958 to 1968, and has interesting greens, good bunker placement, and some water.  

[Adam_Messix]

John--

Having grown up on a Findlay course, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I have one question, what was the general style of the greens if there is one?  I know from where I grew up, that Findlay had a creative way with greens.  

[John Morrissett]

Adam--

It's difficult to speculate on the greens because (1) they were never faster than 6 on the Stimpmeter when I played them in the winter and (2) I never saw the 11th and 15th greens with much grass on them.  A new management company is now running things since my last round there several years ago, so things might well be different now.  Also, a number of the greens have shrunk over the years.  I would not be surprised if some like the 4th were originally square.

There was not a general pattern to the greens. Many are just simple push ups, several are located on high spots (making the course surprisingly playable after a real deluge once, some have two levels (e.g., the 2nd), some are just steeply pitched (e.g., the 18th).  Overall, a well varied set of greens.

What are some the better ones you have seen?

Thanks.

[The Galloping Gourmet]

Off the topic but if you play Walnut Lane, don’t pass on the opportunity to have the best Philly Cheese Steaks in city only a lob wedge away from the parking area:

Dalessandro's Steaks
600 Wendover Street (and Henry Ave.)
Philadelphia, PA

[Adam_Messix]

John--

I was afraid that might be your answer.  The greens at home are a mixed bag.  The 1st and 7th (now 16)greens flows right out of the fairway and the 2nd looks like #10 at Oakmont in miniature.  Then there are pure push ups like 3, 4 (13), 5 (14), and 6 (15).  The current 13th green is hard to describe other than it's imaginatively contoured).  The 8th (17th) green looks like something Maxwell would.

The scary thing to think is that they had a proposal before the membership to completely redo the greens about 10 years ago and the membership was too cheap to pay for it and shot it down (thank goodness)

I haven't played much else of Findlay's to describe his style (and what I have I think may have been butchered at some point).  Llanerch in Phila. seemed to have the same sort of eclectic greens.

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam,

What course of Findlay's are you referring to?  

I've played 15 of his, and hope to play Llanerch soon.  If there is a defining trait to his greens, there are usually narrowly shaped (skinny, but longer front to back), open in front, and bunkered along the sides, with the bunkers cut up into the fringe, often above the green surface.  

Personally, I found his routing skills and use of natural features to be far superior to his somewhat rote green design.  In fact, he also used blindness as a feature, and the 11th hole at Reading CC I cited here before as an "alps" type hole that would never be built today, which is quite unfortunate.        

[Adam_Messix]

Mike-

I am referring to Chester River Yacht & Country Club in Chestertown, Maryland.  It's on the upper Eastern Shore, about an hour and 10 minutes south of Wilmington (basically the middle of nowhere)  Findlay did nine holes there back in I think 1927 or 1928.  He also did a course at Royal Swan Y & CC in Betterton (about 12 miles away) that has pretty much gone to seed but is still there.  My dream is to buy the property and restore the course because what I see is very interesting.

There are two long and skinny greens at Chester River, #3 and #6 (now #15).  The 15th green has a small false front and a major backboard about two thirds of the way back (I haven't seen a green like it anywhere else)

You are also correct in that there is a real genius to the routing.  There can hardly be 60 acres in the original nine holes. The course has minimal land movement but what topography the site has is used well.  

I don't know if you're from Phila. or not, but if you want to play it, I am still a member and will be there the first two weeks of November if you want to play it.  

[Shadow Lurker]

Mike Cirba

Let me get this straight.  You don't like Pine Hill or Bulle Rock but you think Woods Golf Center is interesting?  I don't know how to put this delicately, but you have passed a drug test lately?

[Mike_Cirba]

Shadow Lurker,

If you are going to personally insult me, I'd prefer that you have the courage to use your name.

However, given that I'm a nice guy and think you asked a reasonable question in the middle of being a prick, I'm going to give you an answer.

The question, and the topic of discussion, referred to courses that weren't traditional "regulation" courses (i.e. par 70 to 72) and where one still was required to use "every club in the bag".  

Now, most of the par three courses I've played generally feature a bunch of holes that one can play with a handful of short irons.  Some other "executive courses" I've played might have a few short par fours mixed in with a bunch of short par threes, but are really pretty limited in terms of shot and club variety.

Woods Golf Center's course is a bit different than that.  I won't bore everyone with the rundown of the hole lengths, but I'm willing to bet without knowing your game that you'll use everything from your sand wedge to at least your 3-wood and most in-between.  THAT to me is a fun and interesting practice course.

Throw in the fact that it has small greens with some undulation, some bunkering in thoughtful places, and a few holes where water or OB come into play and yes, I'd recommend that people might make a visit.

You bring up Bulle Rock and Pine Hill.  Part of what I look at when I judge a golf course (not from a ratings perspective, but from what I think people might enjoy playing) is WHAT A GOLF COURSE IS TRYING TO BE.  Part of that equation includes price.  

With Bulle Rock aspiring to be a US Open course and Pine Hill doing everything in their power to encourage the connection and comparison to Pine Valley, they should be judged on what they aspire to, and what they charge for the golfer.  Last I looked, Bulle Rock was about $140 a pop and Pine Hill was similar.  

Frankly, Bulle Rock is not nearly Pete Dye's best course by a long shot (give me Blackwolf Run River, Whistling, and about 15 others), and Pine Hill is about as much Pine Valley as Ballyowen is.  

For $15, I have no problem at all recommending Woods Golf Center.  

Now, tell me what's so great about the courses you mentioned, or just shutup.

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam,

I'd really enjoy getting down to Chester River and I've heard some really good things.

I'd also enjoy meeting you, and will look forward to it.  My email is MCirba@aol.com

Thanks for the offer!

[Mike_Cirba]

Lurker,

Apologies if your post was an attempt at humor, but chuckles go over better with me when I feel that there is a real person at the other end and not someone with a particular agenda that is at odds with my honest opinion.

Also, I never said that I didn't like either Bulle Rock or Pine Hill, although I have serious criticisms of both.  Generally, I think Bulle Rock is humorless, somewhat unimaginative and formulaic given Dye's talents.  It's also a great piece of land where natural features weren't used to the fullest extent.  At best, I give it a 7 on the Doak Scale, which is a good score and a good course, but not worthy of the hype.

Pine Hill suffers from a slightly different problem.  It's almost as if Tom Fazio purposefully avoided a direct comparison to Pine Valley (which I think was very wise) and instead provided little "nods" to it's neighbor with some wilderness areas here and there, but not the predominant feature.

Instead, it's bland and unwalkable, awkwardly routed, and the greens (after the really good first green) are yawners.  Yes, from the tips it's the usual "test of golf", and it's very pretty in some stretches.  However, show me where holes like 15 are anything but just long slogs to wide fairways with no strategic interest.  Overall, the par fives are the best feature, with the skyline 9th and 18th holes coming in second as unsually creative and different for Tom Fazio, but overall, it was a disappointment.  At best, a 6.  

I had hoped for something as good as World Woods Pine Barrens, and instead got something more like Rolling Oaks.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Great write-up, John; which reminds me of Rogell Muni in Detroit: a 6,100 yard Donald Ross layout now owned by the city that is pure fun to play.

Rogell was originally The Phoenix Club, c. 1910, which was the original home of Franklin Hills CC. It then became Redford CC, before becoming Rogell (named for Bill Rogell, a former Detroit Tiger and city councilman).

Many of the original bunkers are missing and, like Walnut Lane, turf conditions at Rogell are "spotty" at best. But the course is still pretty wide open, there is a great variety in types of holes, and there are some very interesting greens with big contour.

And, it's only $18 for a round!

The "muni-crowd" in Detroit doesn't know what they have. And the "golf snobs", who pay five-times as much to play newer, higher-profile layouts in the area, don't know what they're missing.

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