[Dan Kelly]

Oops. Forgot to answer your question.

No, I'm not from the Philly area. I live in Hopkins, Minn. (suburb of Minneapolis) and work as an uncredited editor/columnist (mostly humor, or alleged humor; not at all sports) for the St. Paul Pioneer Press (www.pioneerplanet.com/living/bulletinboard).

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan,

It's August...is golf season over there yet?  

Glad to hear you feel among at home here.  Welcome to the asylum.  

I know that others from Minnesota participate here, although names are escaping me at the moment.  If I might suggest a way to stimulate discussion, you could start a thread on what's worth playing in MN (and more importantly, why), or ask about courses there you haven't played in that region and see who pops by.

Better hurry though...I heard there's frost tonite.*

* we anachonists like to kid good-naturedly.  

[John_Conley]

Dan:

I grew up in Edina, but have called Winter Park, FL home for about 9 years.

The private clubs in the Twin Towns are great - very underrated.  Mpls, ICC, Minikahda, GVCC, Somerset, North Oaks, WBYC, and more.

I'm up for a wedding in a few weeks.  Keep it warm!

[BillV]

Dan Kelly

Let us know when you come east, Mike and I will play with you.  It doesn't get any more anachronistically reactionary than the two of us.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Conley --

I, too, grew up in Edina (a block west of 100, at the corner of 56th Street and Warwick Place). I guess this forum is one of the rare places where we'd admit to having grown up in Edina. (Note to you non-Minnesotans: Edina is the classic postwar nouveau riche suburb of Minneapolis -- and thus the logical whipping-boy butt of jokes for the residents of every other town in the state.)

We belonged to Interlachen as "social members" all the time I was a boy. (My father, unaccountably, never got bitten by the golf bug.) The result is that I've never played the course. Walked it for two days, salivating all the while, during the '93 Walker Cup. Haven't played MGC, Golden Valley, or White Bear Yacht Club, either. Or Oak Ridge, which is a good pitching wedge from my house.

Played Minikahda a couple of times in high school. It was too hard (too tight) for my game then. Woodhill a bunch of times, and loved it -- especially that tiny little par-3 with the high-plateau green. Somerset twice, with our former publisher, on days when I was playing badly. I love North Oaks; I could play there every day for years. A very underrated course, in beautiful shape the past few years: Hillcrest.

September's the best time to play here, as you know. Let me know if you're looking for a game.

[John_Conley]

Edina High, class of 1986.  Worked, caddied, picked range, scrubbed golf cars, etc... (but mostly caddied) at Interlachen for about ten years.

I've never been too impressed with Hillcrest.  Don't be too jealous of all these guys on the board that play all over when you have a great list to work from in your backyard.  White Bear, Golden Valley, and Minneapolis all rank in the top 5 in the Twin Towns for me.  Outside the Metro, Owatonna, Winona, Eau Claire, Rochester, and Northland all merit a visit.

There is also a daily-fee in Eau Claire called Mill Run that opened a second course that I've heard is worth seeing.  Might be a nice 36 hole day with the CC!

I will be traveling with my wife.  Fly in on Thursday, wedding Friday night.  Saturday is an off day and we return Sunday.  I'd like to spend time with my fam, see a few friends, send my wife to the Mall, hit Bunny's for the Walleye plate, and MAYBE play one round.  If it is something we have room for one more, I'll let you know.

Haven't seen Spring Hill or the new Bobby Weed course in St. Paul.  

[Matt_Ward]

Just had to comment concerning the difficulty of Bandon. Even though you may get holes where the wind is behind you they still present difficulties.

When you play the course at maximum length (7,300 yards) you will be facing one real tough dude.

And, I can't think of two tougher holes in a row than the 5th and 6th with the usual summer winds.

The steady wind at Bandon is part of the course. When people say eliminate the wind and eliminate the influence of the ocean it's basically trying to capture courses in some sort of scope that fails to understand that where they are located IS part of the reason why they are so demanding.

Also, mention again the Geronimo Course at Desert Mountain. With all due respect to Desert Forest the Geronimo is like Jason stalking your every move. Only wish Lyle Anderson didn't make the changes to the 13th and 14th holes. When the 13th played 478 yards and uphill you knew what a test it was. Changing it to accomodate more on-site development really baffles me.

One last mention give Pete Dye major credit in the hardest golf course category as well:

PGA West / Stadium
The Ocean Course / Kiawah
Whistling Straits

[John_Conley]

Matt:

We've been down this road before.  Bandon was designed by David to play in the 6700 area.  In order to accomodate winds that shift 150-degrees seasonally, he added some back tees to preserve certain shots.

For example, the back tee on #4 is an afterthought and below the level of the fairway.  For a skilled player on a downwind day, this tee helps them prevent driving through the fairway.

The management company, Kemper Sports, decided it would be "better" to have a course that measures 7300 yards instead of 6700, so they do set markers all the way back.

Even a strong player will have a hard time with the teeshot on #16 if #4 was down wind or vice versa if they refuse to budge off that back box.

If Bandon is 7300, we can say Kiawah is 7700 and Hazeltine is also in same area.  The existence of back boxes does not mean all have to be used concurrently if you are in windy areas.

Take out the wind and Bandon will not challenge TOUR quality players from the back.  The LOWEST score EVER shot in a major was last week by David Toms.  It is obvious to me that length is not enough to challenge.

Put broken glass in the bunkers, set the fairways on fire, and cover every green with smoke like a disco and you'll have a hard course.  

Consideration of the wind is one of Bandon's strengths.  Note that 4 & 5 run in opposite directions, as well as 9 & 18.

You and I seem to have a philosophical difference on whether you need to ever tee up at "maximum length".  #18 at Bonita Bay has a tee seldom used.  Doesn't mean you have to play from there.

[Sean O'Malley]

Gene,

Thank you for bringing Desert Forest into the discussion.  The club is going to reopen in the fall after a summer full of restorations under Tom Weiskopf.  It will be better than ever. Hardest course in AZ, no question.  However, for my dollar the Dunluce Links of Royal Portrush is the hardest course I have ever played.  The rough was just unrelenting.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Appreciate your comments.

You say what would Bandon be without the wind. Well, that's a nice thought BUT THERE IS ALWAYS WIND AT BANDON! You can no more separate the wind from Bandon than Carmel Bay from Pebble Beach. They are part and parcel of the design.

And, if the course was set up at 7,300 yards and the pros did play there they would certainly be under par -- but not like they were playing the Hope Classic! Too often the Tour and PGA have taken tough venues and made them play much easier (witness the 1988 PGA at Oak Tree, the US Open / PGA setups at Medinah and The World Cup at The Ocean Course at Kiawah, to name just a few). I'm very concerned the PGA will do the same at Whistling Straits in order to keep audiences happy with birdies being made.

I look at it this way if they have created extreme back tees then as long as there is some element of fairness / proportionality it's fair game to be used -- whether it be windy or not.

I agree that not all tees need be used concurrently but calculating wind direction is never an exact science.

There are very few courses today where pros are pushed to the max with long irons or even wood approaches. Play Bandon from reasonable tip tee positions and you will make the pros play in dealing with some of the strongest wind gusts in America. Even the holes downwind are no automatic bargain!

How average and above average players play golf is one thing -- how the world's best play is quite another. Bandon, in my mind, with one or two tweaks (i.e. the 18th being convereted into a long par-4) is more than capable in pushing the world's best. John -- ask yourself how many pros are going to reach #5 in regulation with the summer north wind blowing? How many of them have the guts to handle the fact that the slightest push or pull will result in their ball being deader then Elvis? Also, if the pin is back on the 6th I wonder the same thing.

The Tour and PGA are in the business to keep audiences in front of the tube with their players making birdies. Jim Awtrey, Exec Dir of the PGA, was quoted after Atlanta in saying that winning totals are irrelevant. It used to be the US Open was really the only consistent brutally designed layout.

I just believe Bandon has the wherewithal to be a superb venue for a major event. I know it will likely never happen because of the facility's remoteness.

Just a humble opinion.

[Dan Kelly]

John Conley --

Nor have I seen Spring Hill -- except through the vegetation and over the fence. The holes one can see from the road look intimidating -- and very fine.

The new Bobby Weed course is called StoneRidge. I've played it four or five times. It's a nice course. Has been in great shape this summer, though the rough is still filling in and I've had some awfully strange lies within a couple feet of the fairway. (Only serious criticism: I wish they'd built the berm about 50 feet higher, because the front nine is still awfully loud from the traffic on I-94.)

[RJ_Daley]

I would have to say THE toughest course I have played was today at Brown County Golf Course, based on my performance.        

Aside from today, I would say Whistling Straits was pretty tough the 2X I played there.  Funny, I only played Kiawah Ocean once, in the dead of winter, not having touched my clubs except for that week in months, and found it challenging but not that tough...  I know there is a lesson in here somewhere for me...

[Gene Greco]

John Conley:

  Along with the glass in the bunkers, fairways on fire and smoke and a disco ball on the greens, you musn't forget Mr. Huntley's machine gun nests which he played alongside in the Congo in 1961. I'm much more comfortable with the eonophilic aspect of the year 1961.

Sean:

  Played 'em both but kept the ball in play at Portrush. Didn't at Desert Forest. Hence, my response. Both golf courses are perfect and each present delightful constant challenge. However, one will suffer if one doesn't bring game that day!

[the donald]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the most difficult Ross course....Oak Hill East!!!  Too mant trees, yes, but, oh, so narrow!!

[John_Conley]

Matt:  

I know what you are saying about Bandon, the wind, and especially #5!  I thought that was the hardest hole I'd ever seen, and felt a lot better when David said he had Match Play in mind.  "I don't care what you shoot" was his comment.

Predicting wind directions can be hard in some parts of the country, but not at Bandon.  It shifts seasonally about 150-degrees, from what I was told.  It blew about the same for us each day (#4 was downwind).

My comments about course setup reflect an opinion I feel others agree with, so an assumption is at work - dangerous.  #5 lacks ample landing areas 50 yards short of the green, so an event organizer would be careful to place the tee up during the time of year it was playing into the strong fan.

IF you DIDN'T make such concessions, Bandon could play extremely difficult, but again - BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS.  I played Muirfield and Sand Hills in some of the most obscene wind I've ever seen, but I'd hesitate to call either the HARDEST course I've ever seen just because the wind was up.  That is an example of conditions making a course play harder.

Play PGA West - Stadium (I've only seen it on TV) from a reasonable set of tees for your ability - I think you are a strong player, so let's say 7000 yards - and you'll score high even on an 80-degree day with no wind.  Can't say the same for Bandon (where I made 5 birdies in one round - offsetting my EIGHT on number 5, of course!) or Sand Hills or any other venue that relies on wind to defend itself.

FYI:  Hazeltine sits atop the highest point in Carver County.  The golf season in Minnesota is obviously short, so many people take every chance they can to play.  Go out on a 40-degree April day with the wind blowing and play every hole off the back of the box - you'll have to go back, they wouldn't set the markers all the way back under conditions like this - and you'll be playing the hardest course in the world on that day.

See how much conditions play a factor?  That's why I'm looking at it ceteris paribus.

[Mike @ Kiawah]

The reasons the pros ate The Ocean Course alive during the '97 World Cup was that 1) the course was set up at only 6,800 yards for, as Colin put it, "the lesser nations," and 2) it was the only time in recent memory that the conditions for the entire event were dead calm -- hence the scores of 63 and 64.  I heard that Davis Love III, played a practice round from the absolute tips (almost 7,800 yards) and shot a 67...

[John]

Thanks for chiming in, Mike.  I understand the "absolute tips" to be a set of tees that wouldn't be used concurrently, but exist to allow for lengthening of certain holes because it is so windy there.

"These guys are good"

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Appreciate your response.

Wind is a factor and since Bandon usually has seasonal wind you can plan accordingly for a proper course set-up. Keep in mind the wind pattern at Bandon does have cross wind holes unlike the near north - south direction of Pac Dunes.

Still, personally, I'd like to see the big boys handle the 5th and 6th at Bandon from the tips and let them sweat a little. I guarantee you there will be plenty of tour pros, possibly including Tiger and Phil, htting a driver "off the deck" in order to reach the 5th in two blows. Miss slightly right or left and its BYE BYE BALL and HELLO TRIPLE OR QUAD!!!

Too much of tour golf is predictable stuff because tournament organizers want low scores to be part of the process / keep audiences in front of the tube. I cited previous exmaples (1988 PGA / Oak Tree, the majors at Medinah circa 1990, 1999, World Cup / Kiahwah).

If "these guys are good" then let's push the medal down even further and see what happens. I'd be curious to know what is the course record at Bandon from the tips?

John -- keep in mind that daily conditions are part and parcel of the game. You cannot separate them. As a baseball fan and Yankee rooter I hear all the time about the short right field porch in the Bronx. Bottom line -- the Yankees adjusted their team to the field dimensions. And if you play them at Yankee Stadium you better be able to do the same.

Golf conditions are what separates the men from the boys. All of links golf is based upon weather conditions. Those who tee erly in the BO before the wind comes up might have as much as ten stroke advantage over those who play in the afternoon. To Bandon's credit the wind direction is about the same day to day during the summer (from the north) and winter (from the south) periods.

When people say "what if" the wind doesn't blow ... well "what if the queen had balls" ... she'd be the king! This "what if" stuff is "woulda, coulda, shoulda mentality. The wind does blow routinely at Bandon and each time I go there I know what's at stake and what it's going to take to score reasonably well.

Ask the pros who competed in the 1992 Open at Pebble ... especially the last day. Pebble is only 6700 yards and everyone of them was sweating big time bullets over every shot. The wind that Sunday was vicious and required ultra patience. Yes, Pebble has smaller greens than Bandon and are more protected but Bandon is considerably longer than Pebble and probably provides an even faster turf surface so that unpredictable bounces would be in play comparable to what you see at the BO.

One last item -- as far as Hazeltine is concerned I agree it is difficult. I played the course as a media member prior to the 1991 Open and could see it for myself.

However, please don't use the month of April as a fair example. In April the turf is still wet, the air still dense and the rough nearly impossible. I can easily play Winged Foot in the metro NY/NJ area and get the same desired result.

I believe the only fair way to say a course is legitimately hard is to play during the prime playing season months. Don't get me wrong -- Hazeltine is no pushover in June thru September. I just don't think it is harder than Bandon -- particularly if the USGA changed the final hole at Bandon to a 475-490 par-4.

Just a humble opinion.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

We'll agree to disagree over what constitutes a hard COURSE.  I know CONDITIONS can play hard wherever you go.  Pebble Beach is not a hard course for anyone, but it can challenge when the wind blows.

Regarding BANDON... not sure what people have shot from the tips, but a HS kid shot 27 in a match on the back 9 from member-type tees.

Moreover, just like Hazeltine can have wind, Bandon can have calmer days.  I kept alternating fades and hooks into junk and out of bounds when I played #9 at Muirfield.  After losing a slug of balls, I finally admitted that the CONDITIONS were more than I could handle - no matter what you did with airborne shots, the wind was so strong it spun one way or another and went off line.  

How windy was it?  I hit a Driver-7 iron OVER the back of the green on the longest hole on the course, probably about 555.  350 yard drive and 200+ yard approach.  Does this make Muirfield the hardest course?  Only if it ALWAYS blows that hard, which you and I know is not the case.

I agree with you, it would be nice to see the TOUR setup harder.  But since they don't, we have to look at the 4 Majors.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()