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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Should an architect have his own style...
« on: November 12, 2001, 04:15:00 AM »
 It is an weird fact that some architect have designed their first courses amazingly well and with a lot of thought and then they kinna settled down and developed a style they are going to keep all of their career. Result: Their first courses were innovative, fitted the land perfectly, they were great courses and after that, architect has a routine of design and built so-so courses.
I believe an architect should built each course has a new beginning and basically try to built the best course in the world every time on the land they have.
With today's technology, architect can built what they want wherever they want, that may be the source of the problem...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2001, 09:13:00 PM »
Philippe:

I agree with you that each site should dictate its own style of golf course, and an architect should be flexible enough to go with the land.

However, it is inevitable that each designer will have a certain feeling for the game and a certain way of looking at things that comes through on whatever he builds.  

It is also inevitable that others will try to define his style.  Some designers seem to take this as a positive and build everything afterward in that reflected image of their work -- basically, they market whatever someone else liked about their work.  On the other hand, as a contrarian, I'm more likely to try and avoid whatever the cliche of my work is becoming.

My one concern about your post is that you say the architect should try to build "the best golf course in the world every time."  Most sites don't have that kind of potential, but a lot of architects have wasted a lot of money trying to build something spectacular, instead of taking the best holes that were already there.


paul albanese

Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »
I get that question a lot too -- "what is your signature?"  -- do you have a "style"?  I like to think I do not -- but, I am not that naive.  But, as Tom mentioned, I do make a concerted effort to NOT do the same thing over and over -- even it is something that people seem to like.  Part of being artistic and creative is trying to do things differently, within the bounds of established principles -- to experiment with new ideas, while understanding what parts of the old ideas worked well.  Do otherwise, you simply become a "widget maker" or "cookie cutter".  


DRGAZ

Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2001, 06:02:00 PM »
My view has always been that if you can tell from the club parking lot who did the course design, the architect has overdone it a bit.  I do believe it is inevitable that bunkers, tee shapes, and greens contours will probably give it away to the astute observer, but if you can tell from hundreds of yards away, the designer likely needs to re-examine his philosphy.  I always like the comment that I heard once from a fairly prominent designer who told a client: "please never use me again if you think my ocean front course, my desert course, and my mountain course don't vary in style".

I also have a question for Tom Doak if he reads this link again.  That is, how would you go about a routing if you had a piece of property like Talking Stick that was featureless, flat, but gave you the ultimate authority on how to place the holes.  It would interest me to understand how you would proceed on this as opposed to a more natural site where you might "find/locate" holes and greens positions.  Thanks.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2001, 08:07:00 PM »
DRGAZ:  The Texas Tech University course we are about to start is on a rectangular property with four feet of total elevation change in a gradual tilt, so it fits your question perfectly.

We did two or three routings for it, each of which were very different; and then after considering the merits of different locations for clubhouse, maintenance, parking, and leftover acreage, we changed the routing significantly at the eleventh hour to avoid a setting-sun problem on the 18th hole.  [To do this we renumbered the back nine, so what were going to be the 14th and 12th holes will now be back-to-back par fives at the finish.]

How did we arrive at this?  Honestly, I think if I were doing it again today I'd probably arrive at something different again, just depending on my mood.  We were very conscious of varying the directions of holes because of the strong prevailing winds, and also the "flow" of the course, the views outward from the clubhouse, and using earthmoving to divide up the property into distinctive sections.

However, I do not think there is any right way to go about this exercise.  At Talking Stick, I know Bill and Ben had some concepts for specific holes on flat land that they pulled out of the drawer, and fit the rest of their routing around those holes.  Texas Tech is based more on an overall earthmoving concept, to hide some distracting adjacent properties and to create the feeling that the course is eroded down into the ground, like anything else around Lubbock which isn't dead flat.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2001, 08:28:00 PM »
Phillipe,

It is late, and I have the flu, so please excuse me if this is rude.  But I would like a specific example, rather than a generalization of this "weird fact".  Did you have one or a few architects in mind?

Without some specifics, I can hazard a few guesses as to this situation, including the fact that the architect only had "one novel in him" or that he got incredibly lucky on his first site, or with a good contractor or owner, oe owner with the lofty goals of creating the "best" etc.  As Tom says, not all sites, and really not all owners can support that kind of course.

But, that project may have sold another job (I always say the second is harder to get and even harder to do) which exposed the architects flaws.  Or perhaps he lost interest with a lesser project.

Or in a real sense, someone else is doing the work.  I recall going from a one man shop to being a salesman to keep the guys busy in a hurry.  You have to learn to adjust to those circumstances and control the design, while delegating efficiently and training.

Lastly, your own perception may have something to do with it. Looking at perhaps the most creative architects of our age (I trust you are not channeling from some other era onto this site, although I don't rule it out after the opinion piece by Max Behr!) like Pete Dye, I was in awe the first time I saw his early style - mostly because his design "assumptions" were so different from what I might have done, but when I saw it again, not as impressed, simply becausse I had seen it before.  When he got even more dramatic, like TPC, I was again impressed.  When I saw PGA West, less so.  When design gets into one upmanship - even one upping yourself, then certain trends go out as fast as todays pop music!

I suspect that anyone could say similar things playing their second "Brauer" course.  Like Paul, I try to vary my thoughts and themes over time, although change is slow.  If it works, you try to vary the theme, not recreate, at least for a little while, until you get tired of seeing it from yourself!

I think all designers and artists are somewhat conscious of this.  Anyone remember a George Harrison album, when he was on the downside of his solo career titled "Ohnothimagain"?

I think Paul is saying about the same thing.  I think the problem, one which critiques helps combat, is that as time goes on, an architect cements more rules and "general principals" in place, which aer a result of critiscms or just outright failures of certain holes or principals.  Of course, this limits the options he even considers, much less implements!

Pete Dye was so successful because he through out the existing paradigms of "mowable slopes" , all "natural surfaces" - ie using railroad ties, Playability (ie design for the good players, don't worry about using long grasses for definition, and so on. At the time he got famous, my mentors would have never even made basic assumptions about design that those things were possible.  So, they didn't do them.

As Tom implies, you do look at things a certain way, for reasons above.  And architects are human, so they listen to praise, criticism, and top 100 and best new lists.  Lastly, we listen to owners, who as a rule, are not risk takers, although there are exceptions, so many feel stuck in a style for business reasons.  Few owners tell you to do something really different after paying good money based on what they saw you do in the past, any more than you would pay for an airline ticket, and on the way on to the plane, tell the pilot you would like him "to try some new tricks today, like a barrel roll or something!

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

moth

Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2001, 03:42:00 AM »
Can anyone name an architect without a readily identifable style? No? That's becasue there are none.


Even those that say they do not follow a cetain style generally have one, although over TIME it may change. Tom Doak's and C&C's courses are easily identifiable, except where they are modifications of existing courses when the original architects style is the goal.

The only architect I can think of who does not have an readily identifiable style is BY and that is because he is not readily identified!


Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Should an architect have his own style...
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2001, 03:46:00 AM »
Mr Doak,
When I am talking about building the best golf course in the world every time, I already know that it is an illusion but at least architect should try to built the best possible course on the site. Every site has its potential and weaknesses, but if you don't have a great panorama, focus on strategy, if you have a aggressive landscape, focus on character etc.
When you were talking about setting artificialy dramatic shots, I believe that an architect needs to work a lot to make it look natural and artificial courses are not I believe an ideal.
I hope your new course for Texas Tech will be as good as Pacific Dunes, of course not for beauty and amazing panorama, but it could be as interesting strategically, or even more then every other...