Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bob Harris on August 19, 2008, 11:56:34 AM
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After playing/rating Green Valley last week I found this link is to the McDonald Design Group's Master Plan for Green Valley. There are a number of aerial views of the original Marble Hall Links that Flynn designed and owned.
http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/gvccbook.pdf
A “Flynn Inspired Design”
Green Valley’s property has a unique history. William Flynn not only designed the golf
course, but also originally owned and operated it as a public course known as Marble
Hall Links.
The master plan utililizes traditional design features found on William Flynn courses
built during the 1920’s and 1930’s. The plan reverts changes made to the property
over time that have not reflected Flynn’s design in style or substance. Although research
(including aerial photographs) from the 1930’s inspired our design process, this
plan is not a golf course restoration. Instead, the master plan improves the golf course
with Flynn characteristics that he may have built for a private golf club. The “Flynn
Inspired Design” not only relates to the positioning of bunkers, tees, etc.; but also to the
golf feature shaping and detail work during implementation. The goal of the project is
to create classic improvements, which will appear to have been there for 75 years, created
by William Flynn himself.
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I wonder if they plan on softening any of the contours - those greens are some of the most treacherous on which I have putted.
Also, I wonder where they got the date of 1924 for Philmont!?
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They've also used several of Ran's photos.
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I wonder if they plan on softening any of the contours - those greens are some of the most treacherous on which I have putted.
Also, I wonder where they got the date of 1924 for Philmont!?
The 1924 date is also on Philmont's website:
Despite the members’ unfamiliarity with the Scottish game, golf caught on quickly and within a year of the club’s opening had become so popular that a decision was made to lease additional land and build nine more holes. Scotland’s Willie Park, Jr., architect of Berkshire’s course, was brought in to lay out the new holes and substantially reorder the original nine. This charming eighteen would come to be called the South course, to distinguish it from the club’s longer and more challenging second eighteen, the outstanding North course, laid out by William Flynn in 1924.
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Bob,
Apparently Philmont's website hasn't been updated to the reality as was discussed here on many threads a few years ago and was written about by Bob Labbance in his club history prepared for club during its centennial year: The South was "laid out" by John Reid, the first pro at Philmont and was modified by Hugh Wilson with the help of club member and "expert golfer" Benjamin Strauss.Later work was done by the Gordons. The North was "laid out" by Willie Park, Jr. and before it was actually constructed, Park became ill and returned to England. The construction firm of Toomey and Flynn(a separate entity from William Flynn, GCA) was then hired by the club and the construction was supervised by William Gordon. There were no Flynn plans for Philmont ever found in the cache discovered by his daughter in a barn(or in the club's archives) although plans and drawings were found for every course that Flynn designed or renovated. The Labbance book concedes this but speculates that Flynn probably did design work there although the club has no records of hiring Flynn to design the course.There are no Park plans to be found either. As you know, many members are unwilling to give up the Flynn provenance.
Take a look a Labbance's book if you can. I did borrow it from our mutual friend.
Green Valley's provenance is undisputed and is a very fine course although never really mentioned in same discusions as HV, Lancaster, Rolling Green and even Lehigh.
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Steve,
I understand that Philmont hasn't acknowledge that possibilty. Since it was a friend of our mutual friend who came up with the idea of the Flynn Cup, they don't want to disqualify themselves from participation.
I agree that Green Valley is a fine course, but not in the league as the others you mentioned. However, the McDonald master plan. if and when completed, could bring it close to that level.
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Bob,
Is the master plan under consideration or has it been voted upon?
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Steve,
I understand that Philmont hasn't acknowledge that possibilty. Since it was a friend of our mutual friend who came up with the idea of the Flynn Cup, they don't want to disqualify themselves from participation.
I agree that Green Valley is a fine course, but not in the league as the others you mentioned. However, the McDonald master plan. if and when completed, could bring it close to that level.
It's quite a documented fact. Willie Park, Jr. wasn't working in America at the time they claim he laid out the South Course, or did any work on the South Course.
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Steve,
Not sure what the final outcome was, however, some of the recommendations have been completed, but the major work like burying the creek that crosses 3 and 11 have not been done.
Bob
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Bob Harris,
If the project is not a restoration, as indicated, then why resurrect Flynn's affiliation with the golf course ?
Reading your post it seems like an interpretive redesign will be undertaken.
Whether it's a sympathetic renovation or a substantive departure from Flynn's work is hard to detect from the verbage.
My question would be, "What's the intent, without the accompanying PR effort ?"
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Bob Harris,
If the project is not a restoration, as indicated, then why resurrect Flynn's affiliation with the golf course ?
Reading your post it seems like an interpretive redesign will be undertaken.
Whether it's a sympathetic renovation or a substantive departure from Flynn's work is hard to detect from the verbage.
My question would be, "What's the intent, without the accompanying PR effort ?"
I don't think GVCC is resurrecting his affiliation. For as long as I can recall, the club has considered itself a Flynn course since the routing is basically unchanged from the Marble Hall Links.
Not sure I understand the question. The intent of the remodel or using Flynn's name? What would be the need for a PR effort?
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Bob Harris,
Reread my post.
The questions attempt to elicit the objective of the project absent tangential references.