Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Richard Hetzel on July 12, 2008, 09:17:42 PM
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Has anyone played any worthwhile courses that were designed atop a former landfill? Here is a review of one that I wrote as well as a short interview with Paul Miller, golf course architect about landfill golf:
Phoenix Golf Links, Columbus, Ohio:
http://www.golfwrx.com/BagChatter/2008/07/04/landfill-golf-part-one/
Paul Miller Golf Architect interview:
http://www.golfwrx.com/BagChatter/2008/07/09/landfill-golf-part-2-paul-miller-architect-interview/
I wonder how cost effective constructing this type of course really is in the long run...
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Yes, I have played a very good golf course built on a landfill. Park Ridge in Lake Worth, FL. Designed by Jeff Grossman and Roy Case, each contributors to this site. Perhaps they could fill us in on more details. Also, I think Liberty National and Bayonne are landfill/waste area courses. I would assume they are quite cost effective in the long run, the property remains essentially worthless, even with the course on it. Nothing substantial can be built there. Plus, I am sure the initial purchase cost was fairly low, if it wasn't build by a municipality.
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Rich - yes, just yesterday in fact. BraeBen, a municipal course owned by the city of Mississauga (just on the border of Toronto). A former landfill, it was capped and the methane gas is being captured for electricity generation. A good course, "only" 6,500 from the back tees but as I think another thread from a while back mentioned it still tests the very good golfer. Ted Baker is the designer (sorry I don't know anything else about him), but it's a bumpy fescue-type course with some interesting features. There's also a 9 hole course/academy, and the green fees are very, very reasonable, expecially for the greater Toronto area and for junior golfers. Anyway, I enjoyed the course very much, and couldn't help but like (and wanted to support) this kind fo construction and use of municipal funds -- a landfil that becomesa a good and affordbale golf course in the middle of a sprawling subdivision, i.e. where people actually live. I don't kow how much it cost - over $10 million, I think -- or how it works as a busines model or public policy -- but I am glad it is there.
Peter
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"Has anyone played any worthwhile courses that were designed atop a former landfill?"
Merrick Road Park Golf Course in Merrick, Long Island, New York.
Worthwhile as a great place to take a youngster to first play golf... It is where my Mom would hit her 100-yard drives in as many directions as can be found on a compass in order to allow me to play golf as a young man...
How can any course be more memorable than that? ;D
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We are currently working on three layouts for landfills. Make that four.
The cost can be high compared to non-encumbered land. However, the real value is in transforming land values on adjacent land. This, combined with assigning liability away from the landfill owner (usually a city or state) is the greatest value of all. Land values can escalate by 10x when a closed landfill is converted to a golf use.
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Golfers have the highest methane content of any creature in the known universe. Perhaps we should just make a giant "elephant graveyard" and light a match. Start the whole golfing culture over again. I once tried to push an idea of golf paradise (Featherie Banks) on a superfund site, but nobody liked the idea of playing in a hazmat suit so it was brutally rejected. Probably didn't help that the site visit created third degree burns and peeling skin below the knees.
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Having gone to school in SoCal in the late 70s/early 80's, I'm fairly certain 2 courses I played in the City of Industry (a very dreary area compared to Westwood) were build on an old garbage dump. Industry Hills had 2 courses, the Eisenhower and Zaharais, both very well-conditioned and affordable, yet extremely difficult, if not unfair in places. Do I have this right?
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Harborside International is a 36-hole facility in the city of Chicago. It features two solid tracks built on a former landfill. It might be one of the best examples.
Certainly, landfill courses make little financial sense for a private investor. But, you can certainly argue the public interest to take an eyesore and turn it into a productive use.
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Whilst not a great golf course - Russell Vale in Wollongong was built on and old dump site - I cant think of much else that could have been used for that land filled area ?
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I have built a few courses on Landfill sites and am working on one at the moment. It is inert landfill though, subsoils dug from another site, which we use to model the dull land to form the course. It is very cost effective and in many instances the course construction comes out close to zero as a fee is received for receiving each load of landfill.
The biggest drawback is probably the drainage is more expensive. Its agreat way to recycle a waste product back into a sports construction.
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Yes. McCullough's Emerald Golf Links in Egg Harbor Township, NJ, a Stephen Kay design.
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In addition to Park Ridge GC in Lake Worth, FL,which I've played a few times, Roy Case also did Wildcat GC in Houston, TX, a 36 hole "brownfield" complex:
www.wildcatgolfclub.com
Emerald Links is sometimes referred to as "Twisted Dune Light." ;D
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I wrote mt Master thesis on landfill golf courses and visited many (industry/Harbouside, etc.). Landfills have great potential because of there location to large population and land re-use.
Then built my thesis project in Natick, MA Sassamon Trace. It is a 9 hole executive with a par 5 and and 4 par 3's. The sandy soils and required good drained makes for excellent conditions, unfortunately, the Town doesn't have the budget to make it better.
In the northeast the landfill size is typically too small for a golf course. We had room for 4 holes at Sassamon. The land surrounding a landfilll in these parts is usually wetland (the colonists knew the best place to put the trash...).
I think the new Fresh Kills (old Nicklaus) New York City course is on a landfill.
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Are we differentiating between reclaimed land/brownfield and complete landfill? Industry Hills 36-Hole complex was the first I read of, back in my wee child days of the late 1970s/early 1980s. Hurdzan-Fry did a fine one in Scituate, MA, called Widow's Walk, then reclaimed some railroad land in suburban Buffalo (Cheektowaga) for Diamond Hawk. I played one in Charlotte (named after some local pol) with Methane venting everywhere...should have marked the tubes with yardages...they were that prevalent. There is one in the works in the Bronx called Ferry Point...been up and down and up and down and maybe up again. Buffalo has some land in the midst of the industrial district. Routings have been discussed but in the end, it will probably go back to industry.
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Among the earliest were Silverbell (Tucson) and Cave Creek Park (Phoenix), both Arthur Jack Snyder designs.
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My reference point was more from a landfill point of view. Accordingly, I wonder how many brownfield or superfund sites have been transformed into golf courses?
Isn't Old Works in Montana one of those types of sites?
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Old Works was a Superfund site as I recall. So, too, were portions of the work we did at The Hideout (Utah). At The Hideout, the wetlands downstream was re-constructed on the site of an old Uranium Mill...the ultimate landfill!
(http://www.golfgroupltd.com/images/projects/large_imgs/hideout-13.jpg)
(http://www.golfgroupltd.com/images/projects/large_imgs/hideout-5b.jpg)
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To answer the original question about Landfill - not Brownfield, they can cost more but then again, it depends on how creative you are. Some, like Harborside are costly - but then again that inclused the cost of actually capping the landfill as part of the construction cost where others make use of previously capped landfills. So it's hard to get apples to apples. That said, irrigation needs to be practically wall-to-wall. Top Soils tend to be substandard if they exist at all. Forrest may have it a bit easier out i the southwest where you can get bermuda to grow on just about anything. Getting some type of Top Soil (or sand) if none exists is the biggest hurdle. An irrigation resevoir is also another hurdle. Fill dirt may actually, depending on the location be a source of off-setting revenue. USGA greens would be a big No-No, so greens construction is cheaper. Hard surface cart path is also problematic due to the shifting subsurface. Irrigation has to be some sort of extremely strong or flexible pipe with intregral joints/connections. Fuel storage, maintenance buildings and clubhouses are also problematic. They can be located on the landfill but not utilizing normal building techniques. All earthwork is fill only, no cut. So about 3x's the normal fill is required. Also how that fillis placed and where will affect the underlying cap and hence cause future drainage problems that can't be just "piped away". Add to that, if a methane collection system with it's associated network of gas wells and connecting piping are present, these have to be incorportated into the design as improperly placed fill can have disastorous effects on the systems functionality
Other than that, construction is pretty much the same as any terrafirma course.
PS. Every landfill is created differently, so what works on one may have no bearing on another.
As far as costs, I just finished a 9-hole and double-ended range, public course under a union contract for a little over $2 million. Rough grading, and topsoil provided by the municipality. - This is just GC, no clubhouse, maintenance building, etc.
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Landfill in the UK is clearly different to US Landfill.
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Adrain,
Earlier you described a landfill course as
"It is inert landfill though, subsoils dug from another site, which we use to model the dull land to form the course."
Was the soils contaminated? Where you allowed to excavate?
That sounds like a typical golf course project in Florida! You dig ponds to generate dirt to build features.
Black Rock in Hingham, MA was built with soil from the Boston's Big Dig tunnel project. Excavation was by blasting that generated crushed rock for the highway project.
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I did a quick search and found this,
Name of Course
Location of Course
Year Opened
Victoria Golf Course
Carson, California
1962
Lew Galbraith Municipal
Oakland, California
1966
Mountain View Golf Course
San Jose, California
1966
Rancho San Joaquin Golf Course
Irvine, California
1969
Mountain Gate Country Club
Los Angeles, California
1975
Mangrove Bay
St. Petersburg, Florida
1977
Silver Bell Golf Course
Tucson, Arizona
1979
Industry Hills
Industry, California
1979
Shoal Canyon Golf Course
Glendale, California
1979
Bixby Golf Course
Long Beach, California
1980
Englewood Municipal
Englewood, Colorado
1982
Shoreline Golf Links
Mountain View, California
1983
The #2 course Galbrith, was closed again a few years ago and sludge from the Port of Oakland placed on top. A new golf course was built, Metropolitan Golf Links by Fred Bliss. Sadly they ran out of money and couldn't sand cap the entire golf course. Then the city has run out of money and the course conditions have gone down significantly even though it's only a few years old.
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Nobody has mentioned Bayonne Golf Club in this thread, perhaps the most highly praised and architecturally compelling of "landfill golf courses".
I believe BGC accepted contaminated New York Harbor dredgings as fill, for which the developer was paid.
Building these 100 ft tall dunes with clean fill would probably have made the cost prohibitively high.
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The old Tony Lema course in San Leandro, CA, (not sure whats it called now), is also on odl landfill.
With the vents for gases underneath it sure would get pretty smelly when the wind wasn't blowing....
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I believe Texas Star near the Dallas airport is.An exellent muny by Keith Foster.
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You guys are mixing apples and oranges. A "Landfill" course is shorthand for a Sanitary Landfill ie garbage, high amount organic waste, construction materials (the stuff that can't/isn't recycled) etc. Due to the varied nature of the waste stream, it is necessary to prevent water from perculating down through the garbage and coming out the botton with a bit of everything included. This liquid is called leachate and no one wants it contaiminating the ground water. So these landfills are capped with either an impervious clay layer 3-5' thick or a thick liner that is sealed (like a waterbed). Because it is sealed, the natural gas (with a large Methane component) developed as part of the decomposition of the organic waste, cna't escape into the atmosphere so it must be either flared (burned off) or captured in a network of collection wells. Once collected it can be used as a fuel to burn in turbine engines which in turn produce electricity. As the waste decomposes, it loses volume and the landfill cap settles. Because the waste stream is different truckload to truckload, day-to-day, this settlement is not uniform nor constant. Plus, garbage only is about 1/3 as dense as soil so any uneven loading of the cap ie. golf course features, will cause accelerated settling in the immediate area. Plus, all that moisture in the waste begins to condense into leachate and is pumped to keep the internal water (leachate) table at a low level if gas is being mined (decomposition is faster in a non-liquid environment). This pumping also causes the landfill to settle. There, in a nutshell is Landfill Course 101.
Having done or designed more than a few of these, I speak from experience.
There are also C&D (construction desbris) landfill that take non-organic or hazardous materials from construction projects (like building demo or overburden from an urban sewer or tunnel project (where a road can't be use to stockpile the material until it can go back into the hole). There are also brownfield projects where sites have been used for other purposes (industrial or mining) and left in a unrestored state. The restoration can include a golf course or just a meadow.
So they all shouldn't be lumped into "landfill". Hope this clarifies the terminology.
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I was speaking more to the landfill variety since I played The Phoenix (BTW Tim, nice course). It seems that there are many variables involved that occur due to the settling. Very intersting from an engineering standpoint. Didn't they have a collapse there at the Phoenix and if so, how was it repaired?
I hope to get over to play Twisted Gun in West Virginia next month.That was a mining site that had to be either returned to it's original form or into usuable green space, hence the golf course. I can't wait, it could be the highlight of my summer, more so than Forest Dunes or the Gailes which I play next week in Michigan.
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Adrain,
Earlier you described a landfill course as
"It is inert landfill though, subsoils dug from another site, which we use to model the dull land to form the course."
Was the soils contaminated? Where you allowed to excavate?
That sounds like a typical golf course project in Florida! You dig ponds to generate dirt to build features.
Black Rock in Hingham, MA was built with soil from the Boston's Big Dig tunnel project. Excavation was by blasting that generated crushed rock for the highway project.
Tim- Inert Landfill is non contaminated, normally it is excess spoil from housing projects, road constructions and can be anything from clay through to rock. On a number of occasions the money generated from receiving the 'fill' is enough to build the course, sometimes there is even enough for the clubhouse build too.... that means a cheap course and not always a bad one.
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Newcastle, just outside of Seattle is a Coal mine, turned landfill(including the I-90 bridge, that sunk into Lake Washington), turned 36 hole layout by R. Cupp.
The golf isn't tremendous but the views are awesome.
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I hinted at this before, but I would assume that the initial purchase price of say 100 acres of landfill (or mine or other brownfield) would be somewhat cheaper than the same size of normal land? That would seem to offset some, if not most, of the costs associated with the fill necessary to construct the course. I would think a landfill or other 'useless' land site would be a fair place to build a course from a land cost perspective.
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Lamberts Point Golf Course, Norfolk, Virginia
Check out this short video.
Lester
http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/video/lpoint.avi
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I was speaking more to the landfill variety since I played The Phoenix (BTW Tim, nice course). It seems that there are many variables involved that occur due to the settling. Very intersting from an engineering standpoint. Didn't they have a collapse there at the Phoenix and if so, how was it repaired?
I hope to get over to play Twisted Gun in West Virginia next month.That was a mining site that had to be either returned to it's original form or into usuable green space, hence the golf course. I can't wait, it could be the highlight of my summer, more so than Forest Dunes or the Gailes which I play next week in Michigan.
Rich;
Twisted Gun is fun, and the site is incredibly remote. But for a far better remake of a strip mined site, go to Prestonsburg, KY and play Stonecrest. I liked the views at TG only slightly better [both are WOW!], but Stonecrest is far better golfwise.
For a view look at the picture on this thread:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=35471.0
Doug
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Lamberts Point Golf Course, Norfolk, Virginia
Check out this short video.
Lester
http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/video/lpoint.avi
Lester,
Funny you should mention this course as I just played it this weekend. Absolutely loved it, I took a ton of photos and I will post them on this site later. One of the best 9 hole courses I have ever played. Very scenic course on the Elizabeth River.
Chris
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Another landfill course is River Ridge Golf Course in Oxnard, CA. It was built in 1986 and had 13 of the 18 holes atop a landfill. The course was redone from 1996 to 1998. And then they expanded to 36 holes this year when they added more holes to an adjacent landfill.
To avoid the problems of top soil, they were able to add 14 feet of topsoil to the landfill. Where did they get so much soil? They were building a new harbor just down the road and so all the soil was dumped next to the landfill. Then for six months, they trucked the soil up to the top of the landfill.
I have not played the new courses as they have taken holes from the old course and added it to the new course. The views from the landfill are nice and the ocean breezes make an impact.
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I was on a D6 and excavator at Bayonne Golf Club during the capping and construction. A very expensive and interesting project. It was initially rough shaped with the garbage, then roughed shaped even more with dredgings from the New York Harbor. Methane collection system put in and then capped with topsoil. Drainage and irrigation followed the final shaping. This turned out to be a great course but I dont have fond memories of working on that site due to the dredge and garbage.
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I believe that Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport is built on a former rubbish dump. It's one of the very few (3 if you include his contribution to Celtic Manor) Robert Trent Jones Senior courses in the UK and I have to say that I think it is a good course.
There's a course on a former rubbish tip just outside Sandbach, Cheshire, called Malkins Bank. I believe that Hawtree had something to do with it, but it's a municipal and kept in very poor condition. Most of it is unmemorable but there are two utterly eccentric holes on the back nine that I cannot believe anyone ever designed. But it is cheap and therefore gets many people playing that would have no chance on private courses.
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What about Santa Clara CA Municipal?
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We could come up with a list of courses that would be better as landfills.
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Chris,
Thanks for the comments. I look forward to your pictures. Please e-mail them to me at: lester@georgegolfdesign.com
I was there a month ago and I was really pleased at how they were maintaining it.
Lester
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Chris,
Thanks for the comments. I look forward to your pictures. Please e-mail them to me at: lester@georgegolfdesign.com
I was there a month ago and I was really pleased at how they were maintaining it.
Lester
Lester,
I will send them to you. There are a lot. I will not post all of them, just a selection. I thought the routing was terrific and great for that site. Not many courses have that many holes along the water (Elizabeth River). I read that the par 5 third is considered one of the best holes in the Hampton Roads area:
http://hamptonroads.com/node/67731
Here are three pictures from Lamberts Point GC (Norfolk, VA):
Par 5 - 3rd Hole:
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/hornedwoodchuck/Lamberts%20Point/IMG_2238.jpg)
Green on the driveable par 4 - 5th Hole:
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/hornedwoodchuck/Lamberts%20Point/IMG_2353.jpg)
Looking back on par 4 - 6th Hole:
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/hornedwoodchuck/Lamberts%20Point/IMG_2424.jpg)
I will start a separate thread later,
Chris
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I can name quite a few that should be made a landfill....... ;D
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Nobody has mentioned Bayonne Golf Club in this thread, perhaps the most highly praised and architecturally compelling of "landfill golf courses".
I believe BGC accepted contaminated New York Harbor dredgings as fill, for which the developer was paid.
Building these 100 ft tall dunes with clean fill would probably have made the cost prohibitively high.
As usual Voytek you're spot on and NYCentric to boot. Bayonne is a triumph. Run, dont walk...and see you on the first tee... ;D
Now if they'd just change the routing and start her at what is now number 14...
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I was wondering, what else can be built atop a former landfill and create revenue?
The city of West Covina realized that building a golf course atop their landfill would not be the best idea:
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_9892915
West Covina shelves plan to build golf course
By Jennifer McLain, Staff Writer
WEST COVINA - City officials have shelved plans to transform portions of the former BKK landfill into an 18-hole public golf course.
The move came earlier this month after predictions that construction of the course would be another financial thorn in the city's already struggling budget.
"The fiscal impact to build it would result in a negative cashflow to the city," said Public Works Director Shannon Yauchzee. "When it was conceived five years ago, construction costs were half of what they are today, the economy was booming, and golf was more popular than ever."
The City Council on July 1 rejected a round of bids for the 18-hole course, with construction costs ranging from $32 million to $40 million.
Elsie Messman, who attended the meeting along with other residents in opposition to the course, said she would prefer to see nothing done with the land for now - especially since the city approved a budget last month with a $2 million deficit.
"We don't have the money," Messman said. "By the way, we have seven golf courses in the area. How many more do we need?"
One of the courses, Industry Hills, is located less than two miles south the proposed site.
Craig Kessler, executive director of the Public Links Golf Association of Southern California, said that the proximity to other golf courses isn't necessarily telling of the success of a course.
"Any facility which has a good value to price correlation can be successful," Kessler said.
But with construction costs of the course as high as they were projected for the West Covina course, greens fees in the range of $30 to $50 could be possible, Kessler said.
The concept for a golf course has long been part of the city's plans for development on the former landfill. It is the last phase of the West Covina Sportsplex.
"It has always been a component," said City Manager Andrew Pasmant. "But there are so many components to the project. We are slowly working our way up there toward the golf course."
Big League Dreams, a sports complex that contains four replica baseball fields, opened five months ago. It is also now awaiting the completion of the Heights, a shopping center that is expected to be completely open by the end of the year.
The entire facility required a $57 million bond.
City officials hope to generate significant sales tax revenue from the stores and from Big League Dreams, and have long believed that the golf course would provide a steady stream of income.
Some residents suggested that instead of spending $40 million to build a course, that the land be kept undeveloped.
But if the city wants to produce cash flow, its best option would be to use the land as a golf course, Kessler said.
"A golf course is one thing where you can make money, and provide the community with something valuable," Kessler said. "If they build open space, that does nothing but cost money."
Yauchzee said there are two portions of land that are being considered for a golf course. The top deck of the landfill is 100 acres, another section is 75 acres.
"On the top deck, it is fairly well limited to golf activity, we can't build structures there," Yauchzee said. "But the 75 acres of raw land is fairly open."
Other options that the city council could consider on the property is a nine-hole golf course and driving range.
Kessler warned that a nine-hole golf course, though half the size, is not usually half the price.
"The nine-hole golf courses in Altadena and Eaton Canyon (in Pasadena) are probably the only two courses in the San Gabriel Valley that are really financially struggling," Kessler said. "They are half the golf course, but cost considerably more than half to operate. They are the financial step-child in every system."
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The Quarry Hills project in Quincy and Milton Ma combined two existing landfills into 27 holes. Around 6 million cy of excavation from the Big Dig was used as a cap. The John Sanford design is hilly with outstanding views of Boston. A few quirky holes but fun to play on a non-windy day. It looks like John is going to take on the mother of all landfill courses-New York City-Fresh Kills.
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To answer the original question about Landfill - not Brownfield, they can cost more but then again, it depends on how creative you are. Some, like Harborside are costly - but then again that inclused the cost of actually capping the landfill as part of the construction cost where others make use of previously capped landfills. So it's hard to get apples to apples. That said, irrigation needs to be practically wall-to-wall. Top Soils tend to be substandard if they exist at all. Forrest may have it a bit easier out i the southwest where you can get bermuda to grow on just about anything. Getting some type of Top Soil (or sand) if none exists is the biggest hurdle. An irrigation resevoir is also another hurdle. Fill dirt may actually, depending on the location be a source of off-setting revenue. USGA greens would be a big No-No, so greens construction is cheaper. Hard surface cart path is also problematic due to the shifting subsurface. Irrigation has to be some sort of extremely strong or flexible pipe with intregral joints/connections. Fuel storage, maintenance buildings and clubhouses are also problematic. They can be located on the landfill but not utilizing normal building techniques. All earthwork is fill only, no cut. So about 3x's the normal fill is required. Also how that fillis placed and where will affect the underlying cap and hence cause future drainage problems that can't be just "piped away". Add to that, if a methane collection system with it's associated network of gas wells and connecting piping are present, these have to be incorportated into the design as improperly placed fill can have disastorous effects on the systems functionality
Other than that, construction is pretty much the same as any terrafirma course.
PS. Every landfill is created differently, so what works on one may have no bearing on another.
As far as costs, I just finished a 9-hole and double-ended range, public course under a union contract for a little over $2 million. Rough grading, and topsoil provided by the municipality. - This is just GC, no clubhouse, maintenance building, etc.
I can't believe I spent thousands of dollars to take "Solid Waste Management" when I could have gotten the same info free on GCA.com! Of course, that was something like 5 years before GCA.com was born, there was a neat tour of a co-gen plant, and I did get a great job, albeit indirectly, due to that course.
I digress.
Terry and David, I once played a course that was in the process of being turned into a landfill.
Many of the holes worked around a closing open space, maybe a pit or a quarry in its prior and happier life, which was being filled with garbage. It had gotten to the point where runaways from the growing pile, loose bags of garbage -- from a safe distance they looked sort of like giant children's blocks, playfully arranged, but up close reality assaulted the senses, this giant spoor of a malevolent spirit -- tumbled onto the margins of the "quarry" holes.
Fortunately it was March and cold. But the gulls made a hell of a noise and bad as it was tacking around Mt. Trashmore, we further had to contend with leftover snowdrifts, iced and dirty, that gave up our golf balls only after a fierce hacking.
I recall on one hole play had to be suspended for a garbage truck to trundle across the "fairway" to the pit / mountain. Conscious of holding up groups behind us -- a busy day at the world's first co-gen course! -- it took a man's concentration to block out not only the beep beep beep but the anticipation of, the listening for, the loud roar must follow the beeping.
It was too much for a playing partner who started rolling his ball in the "fairway" for better lies. "You're damaging the integrity of the game!" I shouted. "This golf course is damaging the integrity of the game!" he shot back.
He had a point and after that we played preferred lies.
Mark