Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ted_Sturges on September 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM
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I would enjoy reading everyone's nomination for the most overrated golf course architect of all time. Please support your thesis with examples of his/her work. I'd be interested to know what you might consider to be the nominee's "best work", and what you might consider to be the nominee's "worst work". Multiple nominations are permitted. Let the games begin.
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Ted, great question - this should be FUN!
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Is there any question: Tom Fazio in a landslide. Never has a man been able to get bigger budgets, better sites and the resources to build modern masterpieces. He is repeatedly called a genius, yet his work is completely forgettable and the revolving door of his layouts on the rankings proves it. Strategy is out of the question in the Fazio mindset, just strangely places bunkers to touch up the landscape. Just look at Caves Valley. Have you ever seen a course with so little strategy or interest (other than the wonderful buffet and lodging of course).But take World Woods, the Pine Barrens course. Many consider it his finest design. Yet, it appears to have been routed around two strategically placed restrooms, and there are three or four really intersting holes on the course. The rest are average, and on the third or fourth time around could put you to sleep. The Rolling Oaks is awful. Finally, just look at the Short Course at Pine Valley. Ten years later and it has hardly become the fun little pre or post round course that it should be, like the par-3 at Augusta is. It has no character or charm, something that an architect who understands the game would have injected.Tom Fazio is without question the most overrated ever to practice the profession. More than even the great Trent Jones Sr. or Rees. At least Rees knows he's no good, that's why he goes around trying to attach his name to classics.
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Any professional golfer.The Jack Niclaus course in Queensland is a complete and utter disgrace and should never have been built.
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It has to be Yeamans Hall. Oh, that's right, you were asking about the most overrated architech. Just kidding.
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Mr. Richardson,I believe the essay assigned to you and Dr. Craig by The Commissioner Emeritus has still not been turned in. In addition, this outburst will certainly not advance your Commissioner's Cup career.
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I know P. Dye has some fine work out there but when one plays a track like the Austin C.C. ite hard to warm up to his style. The hole layouts, tee elevations/placements, and green construction are so surreal that I may misnumber some holes due to the mental haze i developed during the round. The initial holes , highlighted by the par three 3rd with the biggest most unnatural waterfall I've seen, stretch onto a featureless wasteland along Lake Austin framed be rotten RR. timber walls and presenting blind, unfindable landing areas. You are then funneled through a par five fairway flanked by roadcut like slopes where he excavated through the side of the 200' high hill to build a dam for a natural lake location on the top of the hill for the adjacent hole. Tees begin to jut up above the natural grade on top of rock piles that resemble blasting waste from a highway project. Greens slope from front to back after carries over the signature timber walled pot bunkers. It just gets worse and the whole thing is truly reminiscent of a S. Dali paintscape. The 17 th par five presents a blind elevated narrow green with water on two sides and deep bunkers on the third with a landing area for your second shot bisected by an oblique 30 degree slope if you don't have the balls to brave whats up on top. In short, this course was made for most of the guys I've seen comments from on this site.
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Most overrated?-Rees Jones, who has yet to meet a site he didn't turn into a field of "Rees' Piece" mounds. -Arthur Hills, who always manages to render dull and lifeless any older course he "renovates" and manages to clutter up all his obvious greenside landing ares with a bunker.-Tom Fazio, who is the king of pretty boy puff.-Dick Wilson, who simply relied upon diagonal greens and a hazard on the inside of a dogleg.-Robert Trent Jones Sr., who quickly got bored with designing when he found out how much money he could make stamping out cookies.
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I may not be one of the greats, but by today's standards, I'm a genius when it comes to strategy. At least I had SOME strategy incorporated into my designs. More than I can say for Rees, Art, Tommy F...all those rich hacks.
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Pardon me Sir Brad, but a cursory review of Pine Tree Golf Club and NCR reveals much more variety and strategy than you give him credit for. Alsothe video of the 1968 Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match between Casper and Brewer shows great imagination in terms of interesting holes and bunker shapes. True he was not the best ever but, there was more to his work than your quick statement.Erik
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I am not well traveled enough to have an authoritative answer but a course which left me mumbling "what was the guy thinking???" was Eagle Vail in Colo. "designed" by Bruce Devlin. I only mention this because others whom I respect have suggested his other courses are no better than what I experienced and his name has not appeared in any previous postings. Too bad Mike won't be going on your next trip Ted...
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Larry, It is astonishing how much work some of these chops like Devlin get without leaving a single memorable design behind. Palmer has captured the mediocre market. Of course, Devlin just got the design job in an $80 million development 2 miles from St. Andrews, so someone is buying his crap!Ben
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Ben, I was somewhat hesitant to even mention Devlin because of my limited exposure to his courses, but it's been 6 years and I still remember how BAD some of the holes were on this course. It was a difficult site but that excuse still doesn't cover it. I have heard 1 positive credible comment on some course he did very early on in the Houston area I believe (who was it who said the best work seems to come early in the architect's career?). Everything else has been negative.
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I would concur with Erik that NCR South is an excellent course.My nomination would be Gary Player except I don't think that many people rate him that high.While I've only seen a couple of Fazio, Hills or Rees Jones courses, I would agree that all have they faults. They all have their good moments but for the most part, the courses I've seen have been pretty boring or down right awful.I've never seen any of the Devil's work, but they must be pretty bad to top so many people's hit parade.
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I also agree with Erik that NCR South is a nice golf course. It does however happen to be the second best course on it's street. But, let's get back to hearing about who's overrated.
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Hard to believe such an erudite group is not marching in lockstep on Jack Nicklaus designs. Having played and rated some 23 of them, it is still a mystery to me how he continues to get high profile projects when so many of his courses are absolutely unplayable. I am sure that Muirfield Village has its fans - though how much is Desmond Muirhead and how much is Jack is still a question - but his work at places like Grand Cypress and the PGA West Resort is absolutely indefensible. Sherwood is probably the most even-handed of the ones I have played a couple of times, but even there he could not restrain himself with his "signature" cliche's. Yeech.
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Most overrated?-Rees Jones, who has yet to meet a site he didn't turn into a field of "Rees' Piece" mounds.
I guess I should bring this thread up as well, and have to agree with Brad. I just don't see anything of value that Rees brings to a site?
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Gib - I thought like you about Nicklaus for years. I've played 25 or so JN courses. But the last 4 upscale jobs he has done I've like quite a bit. Mayacama, Bear's Club, Outlaw and Pronghorn.
JC
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I'd sat RTJ....
Lots of others who would be runners up, but I believe that RTJ's influence set GCA back for at least 30 years
Ward P:
Tell us what you *REALLY* think about Austin C.C. :)
Are you in the Austin area?
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It's interesting that RTJ was Stanley Thompson's protege. Has anyone ever said anything bad about a Thompson course? It's the only one I've played, but I would love to be a member of Capilano!
It still galls me that RTJ couldn't see how much better Spyglass would have been if #1 played backward was #18! :P
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It's interesting that RTJ was Stanley Thompson's protege.
I wonder about this. Weren't they more or less partners who spent most of their time on different jobs in different regions?
Anyone?
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BTW - what's up with all these "Guest" postings?
I thought Ran had made changes a year or so ago where everyone had to be registered to post?
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Bill - I have always said that they can correct most of the ills at Spyglass by moving the clubhouse and starting hole to #7. In this way you preserved the climatic holes (1-6) for the end.
Columbia/Edgewater was a thoroughly pleasant tract and club. Mike Erdmann and I had the place to ourselves. Hope I can play it one day with you.
JC
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Given my limited experience to date (19 on site, 9 researched) it might well be Donald Ross. I may be wrong because my sampling is rather small so I remain open-minded that I may be in error.
I still say this knowing how much I admire Charles River, Pinehurst #2 (it took some time), Pine Needles and Southern Pines (which were really nice surprises this year). I highly regard LuLu and much of Gulph Mills (understanding the Maxwell changes). I think all the greens at Aronimink are wonderful and I like quite a number of greens at CC York.
I take it for granted that he has a number of great courses I've never seen including Seminole, Sara Bay, Plainfield and a number of his Massachusetts and New England courses. I look forward to seeing/playing many such courses in the future. Ron Forse keeps telling me about a lot of Ross courses that I need to see including Mountain Ridge among many others.
Yet for all of that, aren't there a rather large number of mediocre to below average courses? Should they be disregarded because he was spreading the game of golf and he was just laying them out en masse?
Three reasons for my selection of Ross as most overrated:
1. The vast majority of his courses had little staying power. He didn't seem to foresee the future of golf and account for it. A number of his courses were remodeled within less than 10 years of their construction; including seven by Flynn (a high percentage of Flynn's redesign work).
2. His routing style was rather one dimensional. Tom Paul has noticed his propensity to have high tees, low landing areas and high greens. I've seen this over and over. Well, at CC York (Craigh Disher and I were there today to study not play) he did this a lot and missed out on some really great topographic features and the course, in my mind, did not make the best use of land.
For the Flynn book we're just going to stick to a comparison and contrast of the routings and demonstrate routing tendencies. But here I will say that Ross did not come up with as interesting a design nor does his stand the test of time as Flynn's would have. Not only that but Flynn's routing would have taken the golfer to interesting spots with great overlooks or natural settings for walks, tees and green sites in and across ravines that Ross simply avoided because the topography got a bit complicated and the holes were possibly too difficult for a membership that did not want such a test of golf. Maybe Ross gave them what they wanted, but it was a far cry from what the terrain called for.
The Ross/Flynn analysis will be of great interest, I feel. Bob Crosby, Scott Nye, Craig Disher, Tom Paul and I are collaborating with some great input from Rons Forse and Prichard (The Philadelphia, DC, Atlanta School of Golf Research) on the chapter and it will be a highlight of the book.
3. Ross's greatness is established by a relatively small number of courses in his overall portfolio. Are many of his courses disregarded in favor of his best efforts? I think so. Put it this way, do you think his HR to at-bat ratio is poor compared to other architects? How about his batting average? Quite a few big game-winning hits, but are they enough to place him at the apex of the pyramid?
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Wayne: Wow what a great answer and gutsy as well.
I'm not sure I agree but living in California I haven't played that many Ross courses. I have played Mountain Ridge which I really liked and thought Plainfield was superb.
I will take a closer look next time I play a Ross course based on your analysis.
Chip: Those answers are from 1999, prior to Rans direction.
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Thanks, Joel. I did hesitate putting the post on here and expect to get an earful (or eyeful ;)) but today's tour of CC York really has me thinking! Again, I have a small sampling to deal with, but I can't get over my sense that he is overrated as he is rated so very highly by most.
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The only architect that I have consistently been mistified by the amount of work he gets is Arthur Hills.
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Eckstein - with that response we may have to change the post title to "most over-rated poster!"
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Whoa... This one could get heavy in a hurry.
Don't knock the Irish.
Wayne,
Schuylkill CC may change your opinion on Ross's seemingly one-dimensional routings. The land for such a small property is used quite effectively. Jeffersonville, to me, does as well. While I haven't played many of his more well regarded designs (i.e. Aronimink, Plainfield, etc.) it seems his lesser-known work tends to shy away from any tendencies.
I did feel that Lulu fell into a pattern on the back nine a bit, but there is some variety on the front in terms of approach shots and elevation.
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I am surprised by the suggestion of Ross. He could do less with less and leave a very good golf course behind. He (or his associates, or some farmer, as Mike Young likes to claim)did it hundreds of times.
Purely speculation, but at this point, his batting average could very well be better than that of Coore & Crenshaw as well as Doak, just to name couple. Let them design and build 300 more golf courses each and we'll see how valid the comparison is.
I believe he remains the most UNDERrated golf course architect of all time. Then again, it's a big world out there and I've only seen a small corner of it.
Mike
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Mike,
I'll play devil's advocate here.
Would you consider the distribution of Ross courses in terms of architectural quality to be positively skewed, negatively skewed or on a normal distribution.
Ross did design a lot, and there are a bunch of gems. But is this a function of throwing a lot of sh*t against the wall and seeing what stuck?
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Kyle,
A very good and legitimate question. I wish I was qualified to answer - paging Dr. Klein?
Some time ago I posed the challenge to the treehouse to name "bad" or "poor" golf courses designed (actually or ostensibly) by Donald J. Ross. The reponses were surprisingly few - perhaps twenty or so. Out of 400 that's a stinker rate of 5%.
On the other end of the spectrum Ross is credited with 21 of the top 100 classic golf courses on Golfweek's list (a "great" rate of 5%) including 13 of the top 50 (1 out of 4).
I'll speculate that it's the remaining 90% of Ross' portfolio that supports his reputation.
Just in Tennessee alone, the routing of Belle Meade is fantastic, though little of his work remains. Cherokee is a smart routing on an improbable hillside. Richland was good enough to host the 1980 women's open, then ploughed under for a subdivision. Memphis CC remains a genuine gem. To my knowledge it's never been discussed on this site. Everyone knows about Holston Hills. All this in golf-poor Tennessee.
A few other gems that come to mind are Athens CC and French Lick Springs' Hill Course. I'm guessing there are many, many more out there.
I vote for highly positively skewed. Something like this:
xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxxx xx
xxxxx xx
xxx xxxx
xxxxx xxxxxxx
;)
Mike
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This thread is a course rating thread in disguise without any ratings or rating system to measure against. Seriously, if you're going to rank/rate architects don't you have to rank/rate the courses and cross tabulate the course ratings to the architect ratings? I'm not sure if determining underrated or overrated architects is of any more value than doing the same with courses except that it makes for a lot of internet chatter.
Anyway, if one was to create a rating scale similar to the Doak scale what would it be and where would these architects being discussed fall out?
Maybe a ten being Alister Mackenzie. A golf architect that all serious golfers and golf architect students should seek out a large cross section of his courses. That would see many different types of courses and features. A great learning experience and one would also enjoy the time spent.
Maybe a zero being a one course architect that laid out something very rudimentary that was not educational or fun.
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The problem with critizing someone like Ross is he did so many courses without ever seeing the land, or seeing it once.
Without the benefit of air travel, and being in such geat demand, and probably desires of as much income as possible, he attached his name to courses that he had only an occansional influendce.
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Cary,
I feel that only furthers the tag "overrated."
Overrated implies that the course gets more hype or note than it is actually worth, and if a course only gets notoriety because it has the Donald Ross name attached to it, and that further clouds judgment of architectural quality, then you have an overrated golf course.
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Bill,
I hope this doesn't have to be about ranking an architect with the basis of his course rankings. The three points I made aren't based upon rankings. I think it fair to say that Ross's method of operation was often as a topo router...he did so in a systematic way. There are, of course, exceptions and Kyle does speak highly of Schuykill CC and the lack of the high-low-high tendency there. I've seen it a lot and like I said, maybe it is just because of poor sampling technique. At CC York it was a pattern that left a lot of interesting sites on the property out of the routing and the course variety and interest suffered.
How about the majority of Ross's courses standing the test of time? Do they as well as some other architects? Of course some do, but how does his overall portfolio of work stand the test of time? It seems to me that some of his courses needed redesign pretty soon after they were built. Sampling error on my part? Maybe. It just so happens that 7 out of Flynn's 20 redesigns were Ross courses less than 10 years after they were built. Most of the clubs don't realize they were significantly remodeled by another architect. Throw in the Ross greens at Pinehurst #2 being far different than those so beloved today and it leaves something to consider.
Eckstein,
I know a number of people that don't hold Flynn's body of work in the same regard as Tillinghast, Thomas, Mackenzie and others. I would hope you would add some support to your statement and let us know why you feel that is true. How many Flynn courses have you studied/played and which courses do you attribute to Flynn? Do you think NLE courses should be considered?
"His courses are a little stale and pedestrian compared to the big names of MacKenzie, Thompson, Colt, Tillinghast and Ross. A second level architect in the same league as Emmet, Stiles and Gordon."
Shinnecock Hills
TCC, Brookline
Merion
Kittansett
Huntingdon Valley
Philadelphia Country
Rolling Green
Lancaster
Lehigh
Cherry Hills
Cascades
Indian Creek
*Boca Raton North
*Boca Raton South
*Mill Road Farm
Manufacturers
Atlantic City CC
*Opa Locka
Pocantico Hills
* NLE
Are these stale and pedestrian designs? If so, I think our definitions are a lot different! I really do question your understanding of what Flynn did or your ability to evaluate his work.
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Cary,
Be that as it may, his chosen method of operation by design would result in less than quality efforts. It can be explained but the results should not be ignored (I'm not at all suggesting you are).
Mike,
I really do see your point and think I am at a disadvantage to speak of the big picture of Ross's work. Your opinion is valid and worthwhile. All I can say is that I don't see him the same way from my experiences and I think that's OK that we differ. I respect everyone's opinion. It's a big world and there's room in it for both of our tastes.
I hope Eckstein expounds on his. I'd really like to hear his point of view.
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Eckstein,
Schuylkill CC
Jeffersonville GC
Lulu CC
Seaview Bay (Bunkering)
Lewistown CC (Heavily renovated by Ault and gang)
Torresdale/Frankford
Riverton
Not a large sample, I know, but all are among my list of favorites.
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Eckstein,
What do you think Flynn did at Merion and TCC? Isn't it possible he did a lot more than you think you know? Very few do and we look forward to presenting comprehensive archival materials that will convince you and other skeptics. I hope you'll buy the book next year...you're in for a lot of surprises.
As for Pine Valley, he did a lot agronomically to rescue the course from total turf loss. His construction work will be determined if possible and the limited design work (bunkers in the slopes below 2 and 18 green?) if we can.
NGLA and Macdonald were an inspiration to Wilson and through him to Flynn. I don't think Flynn was ever in California.
Please do not ignore my questions. What Flynn courses are you familiar with and why are they stale and pedestrian?
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I would have to agree with Guest Ben Delow, Tom Fazio has to be the most overrated, his designs and redesigns are just diappointing in my opinion, the land and budgets that he is given he should have so many courses that are breathtaking, but the majority are not.
And the comment about Ross, WOW, they knocked my socks off who has more top ranked courses to their credit than Ross and the technolgy he had as opposed to today's guys.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Perhaps this thread should have been overrated "living and dead" architects.
Wayne: Eckstein is out of his league with this, don't expect a thoughtful response.
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Joel,
I know I went out on a limb. I think Ross is a great architect. Can't he be overrated and still great? He's just not that great if you know what I mean ;)
As for Eckstein, maybe he's related to Ross. Or maybe to JB McGovern who Flynn couldn't stand ;D
I wouldn't mind hearing his views as long as he presents some supporting evidence. It takes all kinds to fill the big world theory. I just expect some substance to his statement. He didn't answer my question about his Flynn experience yet he asked Kyle his Ross experience. I guess he doesn't mind the question, just the direction of it.
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Wayne ...be ready for middle-of-the-night phone calls from the Donald Ross Society.... ;)
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Paul,
Oops, I'm taking the phone off the hook! Now where's that danged delete button?
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Bill,
I hope this doesn't have to be about ranking an architect with the basis of his course rankings. The three points I made aren't based upon rankings. I think it fair to say that Ross's method of operation was often as a topo router...he did so in a systematic way. There are, of course, exceptions and Kyle does speak highly of Schuykill CC and the lack of the high-low-high tendency there. I've seen it a lot and like I said, maybe it is just because of poor sampling technique. At CC York it was a pattern that left a lot of interesting sites on the property out of the routing and the course variety and interest suffered.
How about the majority of Ross's courses standing the test of time? Do they as well as some other architects? Of course some do, but how does his overall portfolio of work stand the test of time? It seems to me that some of his courses needed redesign pretty soon after they were built. Sampling error on my part? Maybe. It just so happens that 7 out of Flynn's 20 redesigns were Ross courses less than 10 years after they were built. Most of the clubs don't realize they were significantly remodeled by another architect. Throw in the Ross greens at Pinehurst #2 being far different than those so beloved today and it leaves something to consider.
Wayne, I found your comments on Ross well thought out and on the mark based on my limited experience. I think a good example of your point close to me is the former Hampton Golf Club which is now part of the Woodlands Course. A city owned course. Ross did the original work in 1930 and interstate road construction altered the course and Tom Clark revised portions of the course in the early 1970s. The course isn't much now and from looking at the newspaper clippings of the early 1930s it was thought of as the third course in the community behind James River Country Club's new course opened in 1932 and Yorktown Country Club. Going through the list of his courses on the Donald Ross Society website shows how prolific he was but for every Pinehurst #2 or Seminole there were a lot of Hampton Golf Clubs.
As for my comments on ranking and rating, the title of the thread is "overrated" and to me that means there is some sort of quantification rather than general comments. As I said on my original post I'm not sure if ratings and rankings serve any purpose but to create internet chatter.
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I have always admired Flynn and Ross for their ability to make enjoyable courses for all levels of golfers without forgetting women, children and the casual golfer. It is hard to praise one and damn the other, so I have to tell Wayne to go and see some more Ross. ;D
Given Eckstein's role around this place, his comments do not surprize me. He contributes very little that is not intended to demean. Flynn was far from flashy, but never pedestrian, there is a difference.
Flynn still remains under-rated and under appreciated no matter how much I kid Wayne about Flynn's presence on every planetoid in our solar system. :D
Ross and Flynn are as similar and as different as can be simultaneously, but each built courses that can generally be played by all and enjoyed. They generally have in common great difficulty in losing golf balls, a good thing!
I would say that as a group "over-rated architects tend to be modern architects who quite coincidentally are over-priced as well". All of them have done some fine work and make us wish that all of their courses were as good as their best - thus their over ratedness.
No need to name names.
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Taking a shot at Ross was a bold maneuver. It has some merit, as I suspect he did more mediocre courses than the others with whom he keeps company. But I say his better work keeps him out of the overrated category.
I am thinking Rees Jones is THE most overrated. I have seen nothing very good out of Jones, and Ocean Forest is among the most overrated courses. Unlike Tom Fazio, who has some pretty good work out there.
How about this-a preferred citizen of this group builds a much heralded course at the base of a canyon and then it gets washed out after a heavy rain. How overrated is that?
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Even Michael Jordan had a bad night once in a while!
This Ross discussion smacks of the search for perfection. The old architects worked with rudimentary equipment and mules!
For the Classic architects wouldn't a better measure be the number of surviving courses? The statisticians need to get to work onthat one!
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Flynn..Ross...wow very bold comments and my hat goes off to those willing to express those opinions...I do not agree but hell that's what we are all about on this site.
Personally..Mr Nicklaus stands out as being rather overated, I would say Gary Player, but I do not know anybody who rates his work highly in the first place, so he cannot be overated :)
I think the cookie cutter courses of multiple architects from the seventies can be brought into question, as can some of Fazio's work, although the more of his courses I play the more I see that I like..such as last weekend at Dancing Rabbit in Mississippi..a very good golf course, with maybe a couple of holes excepted...
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Even Michael Jordan had a bad night once in a while!
This Ross discussion smacks of the search for perfection. The old architects worked with rudimentary equipment and mules!
For the Classic architects wouldn't a better measure be the number of surviving courses? The statisticians need to get to work onthat one!
I am not in the Ross is overrated camp, but I think you may have missed Wayne's criticism - which was mainly centered around the routing of the golf course. Not much to do with mules and hand plows in routing a golf course. ;)
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Wayne
Don't put your trip to York CC as the final read on Ross. How much of York was J.B. McGovern ?
Plan a week north this summer and play Wannamoisett, Sakonnet, Whitinsville, Orchards, Salem, Essex, Wellesley, Weston, Winchester and Worcester - big on W's.
Along with Pinehurst, I think Ross had his hands on these jobs.
Willie
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Wayne
One "W" you can avoid is Weston. But, don't miss Winchester. It will/should blow you away. Might even make you start questioning your all-encompassing devotion to Flynn....... :o
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Eckstein,
I'd say you saw enough courses to make a judgement.
I am curious about your view of Indian Creek. Maybe knowing that he created "something out of nothing" affected my view, but I thought -- "bold" , particularly the way he varied the look for a relatively flat property.
BTW I am a member of a Flynn course and think if it were on your list you would never use the word "boring" about it.
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Eckstein--
You really think that Flynn played it safe at Manufacturers? Certainly some of the features that Flynn used there, namely the quarries, were an unusual feature for that time period. I can't imagine many architects building the 11th hole there either, but it works really well.
From the drawings that I've seen, there isn't much of MacDonald left at Shinnecock. I'm sure Wayne will elaborate.
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Ok, these are all valid points made by those above.
If I can ask, what The Voice of Reason believes to be a legitimate question, is it a fair comparison?
From what I know about Flynn--and Wayne, please correct me if I am wrong--he had a smaller scale operation than Ross. I know he had the architecture business, and then the Toomey/Flynn construction company. From the number of courses he did, is it safe to guess that he visited every one of them, or spent a considerable amount of time on site?
Ross is known in educated circles like ours ;D for being very prolific. Yet, he is also known, in the same educated circles ;D for not visiting/supervising all his work. I believe there is hard evidence here. He had a much larger scale operation-satellite offices, foremen such as McGovern and Hatch, perhaps doing some design work?
We have now established that Ross had a more prolific body of work than Flynn. But, because of the scale of his operation, the law of averages states there are bound to be some clunkers in there. Same with RTJ. Some great stuff, and a fair amount of clunkers.
Flynn had a smaller operation, from what I understand, his level of quality was more consistent from course to course. I don't know of any you could call "clunkers". Am I right?
I do know of a few that are/were plowed under.
I fully believe, and this isn't to avoid getting invited to a knuckle sandwich dinner at a Philly area diner ;D Flynn is underrated. I'm not kissing anyone's a**. I really like what I have seen of his stuff. His stuff seems to be more consistent across the board, most likely due to having personal involvement in each course.
In conclusion, I will stand by this: Ross isn't overrated, but Flynn in the past has been underrated.
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redanman,
I haven't played either so I cannot make a judgement.
But I would guess that someone who has been with Tommy Lee is more interesting than someone who has been with Tom Cruise.
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Flynn is probably the most consistently good architect. Maybe add Thomas and Mackenzie.
Talking consistent quality of a certain level - definitely not flashy by today's criteria, but flash can get old and you need to look past the candy or the blonde hair and big teats, if you prefer.
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One would have to place the Palmer / Seay team among the category when looking at modern contributions.
Give Arnie A+ for the contacts he has and a number of fine sites but the overall standard of what comes forward is most often highly visual but often empty vessels devoid of much strategic impulse.
There are a few exceptions that I have played -- the Oasis in Mesquite, NV is one such course but even there you have the formulaic style that makes one wonder if these guys ever really understood what might be possible if they bothered to "think outside the box."
A pity because other architects who are trying to get a toe-hold would die for even 10% of the sites The King has had over the years.
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"Shinnecock is great, but didn’t Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes? The others are pretty good, but nothing permanently burned in my memory. This is the rub."
"Didn't Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes?" NO! Don't you think knowing those answers is relevant? All the greens are Flynn greens. Fifteen of the holes are completely Flynn. The par 3 second green is on the site of Macdonald's par 5 12th (I think) but is approached from a different angle. The routing of the 3, 7 and much of the 9th holes are the same as Macdonald but that's it. The third is the only hole that is close to Macdonald's design but Flynn redid the bunkering and the green. The seventh had a different tee (10 yards to the left) a different green (on the same site) and different bunkering. The ninth hole was lengthened and the tee moved, the green was lowered into the hillside by Flynn and the bunkering on the hillside short of the green is all Flynn. The Macdonald bunkering was minimal on the hole. The course is Flynn. Got it?
"The safe route while following a formula?" You couldn't be more wrong and are describing Ross, not Flynn. Show me where Flynn took the safe route. He may have been the most daring and unsystematic router of all time. By the way, did Ross take bold chances? Flynn was just the opposite. If you can't see this you can't see.
You walked away from Indian Creek and didn't think it was interesting? I know you're supposed to keep your head down while playing golf but raise it once in a while ;)
Kittansett, Brookline, Lancaster, Manufacturers, Boca Raton and Mill Road Farm (read Dan Wexler) not interesting or terrific use of natural features? What about his mimicking nature where it is highly manufactured? Cascades and Indian Creek look like there's minimal man-made features but Indian Creek is all man-made and Cascades is quite a bit.
Flynn's batting average is as good as it gets. Ross does not.
What about my points regarding Ross? That's what my contribution to this thread is about, not defending Flynn. Talk about my comments on Ross, will you?
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Wayne - I'm with you! Places like Lancaster are timeless - you get the same great impact the first or 100th time you play it.
JC
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Wayne
I am familiar with Shinnecock Hills, Lancaster, Manufacturers, Philmont, James River, Cascades, Indian Creek, Pepper Pike, CC of Cleveland, Glen View and Cherry Hills. Over a number of years.
Shinnecock is great, but didn’t Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes? The others are pretty good, but nothing permanently burned in my memory. This is the rub.
A good gac who always took the safe route while following a successful formula. Boring!
You’ll never walk away from a Flynn course saying, Wow! That was interesting! That was bold!
He did everything well, but nothing great. There is no shame in being placed in the second division with Emmet, Gordon, Strong and Stiles! Like I said he was good but overrated.
How many of you guys are members of Flynn golf clubs?
I just played Manufacturer's today for the first time and was amazed by the routing. The Quarry hole is incredible, and comes into play or is used on three other holes. On the 16th I almost put it in the quarry because I didn't realize it came that close to the green.
Flynn also uses Sandy Run very effectively and I love how he was able to route the golf course to take advantage of different angles of play with the creek. Sneaking it down the right side of the green on 2, dead in front of the 7th green, and then well in front of 17.
The par 3s were superlative. The 4th is banked into a hillside very effectively. 6 and 11 are both wonderful uphill holes with a lot of options to get into the green on both. The bunkering on all is superb.
The 13th is a long three with a large green and a well executed run up shot will nuzzle right next to the hole.
The second nine also used four drainage swales that cut across the holes in different places very effectively, like Flynn used Sandy Run, the swale comes into play at different parts. In the approach on 12, the landing area on 15, right before the green on the aforementioned 13th, and as a visual fool on 3.
Flynn was every bit the router of golf courses as Ross, and in most cases, much better.
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Some Manny's pics... Not very bland at all, in my eye.
Par 3 4th Hole
(http://photos14.flickr.com/16975392_a5d9dcdfde_b.jpg)
Par 3 8th Hole "Quarry"
(http://photos10.flickr.com/16975393_87268aac05_b.jpg)
Par 3 12th Hole, with one of the swales cutting in front of the green (tee shot is from left of picture)
(http://photos13.flickr.com/16975394_f335e21fde_b.jpg)
Par 4 16th Hole
(http://photos10.flickr.com/16975395_ddeefd0880_b.jpg)
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Calling Flynn or Ross overrated is idiotic...any way you cut it they were both standout architects.
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Bill Dow,
I know I need to see more and I will make a point of following your lead.
Kyle,
Thanks for the pictures.
Tom MacWood,
Ross is a great architect. You can be great and still overrated. In my mind, due to the reasons I mentioned previously, he is.
Flynn is a great architect, yet he is underrated. Some of this happens to be an artifact of many not knowing what his work encompasses.
I didn't want to get into a Flynn vs. Ross but Eckstein made some pretty idiotic comments and continues to do it with regularity.
Eckstein,
Is it possible that what you've read by Whitten is in error? Do you believe everything you read? Or just when it fits your narrow and poorly considered viewpoint? I don't have it hard for Flynn. I know the truth and can prove it. Can you? You are ill-informed and poorly prepared to defend your statements. Unless your preparation is "Ha ha ha, Ron Whitten told me so."
You wouldn't have played Mill Road Farm or Boca Raton unless you now play from the forward tees. Both courses went under more than 50 years ago.
Again with the good, safe boring. You don't get it, and I could care less.
"I've played both Kittansett and Brookline. Flynn designed both of these courses?"
Why don't you ask Ron Whitten? Flynn did rout and design Kittansett. Now you probably think it stale and boring. Flynn redesigned most of the original 18 holes and added 9. Which ones are the stale and boring ones? Anything memorable at either of these courses?
Why don't you go to the Country Club of York and look at what Flynn proposed and what Ross did. Analyze it for yourself and see what you come up with. They have all the info at the club and I'm sure they'd be happy to share it with you. Or are would you rather wait for the Ron Whitten article?
So, what about Ross? I'm sure you've read something about him too.
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Kyle,
Flynn's original 6th hole is a marvelous par 3. Wait till Ron and Jim get that back to its original form!
Although Flynn was never in the UK, his 16th hole at Manufacturers is a lot like the 6th at the Addington. Here's Ran's photo of when we were there last year:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Add6.jpg)
Eckstein has already declared this hole stale and boring ;)
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Wayne -- don't think I agree that you can be both great and overrated... ???
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Paul,
Let me say that Ross is great, but not the greatest. If most think he is the greatest then, in my mind, he is overrated yet still great. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but I think it fits. Just like an architect can be great yet still be underrated. I'm not saying Flynn is better than Ross, I'm just saying relative to my view, I find most people overrate Ross and underrate Flynn. Then there are those like Eckstein that really underrate Flynn ;D
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Sorry to arrive at the party late. I say REES JONES is a huge number one. I had thoughts this morning that Tommy could arrange for the next California landslide to be Torrey South, but have it just drop 25 feet and maybe one of a hundred quality people could come in a fix his poor work.
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Rees Jones, the master of disaster.. Rees's Pieces, LMAO!!
Come on, Ross overrated?? Sure he has a few stinkers, but name an architect with over 300 courses to his credit with no stinkers!! I've played a couple Alister stinkers..
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Tiger's right. It's Rees, followed by the design firm of Ault, Clark, and Associates.
I have no idea why Flynn would be considered overrated. If anything, he's terribly underrated.
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Ault and Clark are horribly overrated, it's almost embarrasing. There firm has produced one course of note that I've ever played: Mountain Valley in Mahanoy City, PA.
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These lovely pictures of Manny's makes one just cry out
(or just plain cry :'( ) for a chainsaw.
(The #1 course of Flynn's that is very easy to improve)
The one and only Marston Cup I will ever get to play is there this year,
I am looking forward to it, calendar marked to get my entry
in early.
Thanks for the compliment, Bill, send me a private message if you'd like the rest. Have them for pretty much every hole.