Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Moore on January 31, 2004, 05:31:05 PM
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Bad for golf?
Somewhere in between?
Who cares?
I honestly can't decide.
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It's good for beer companies.
I think it's a great change of pace and its fun background music for being on the computer.
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Whats going on at #16? I only watch the majors, so I don't know what you are talking about.
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Sorry Ed, I hate the presumptuous post as much as the next guy. Actually, I hate it more than anyone here.
There are 10,000 (not a typo) spectators around the tee boxes of this 174 yard par three. Immediately after each player strikes the ball, most of them yell. If the ball lands near the hole they yell louder. They also chant and do the wave.
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It looks like fun and the players seem to be enjoying it. I wouldn't want to see it every week but not many courses can hold as many as Phoenix.
Curtis Strange said if the players don't like it then don't come which is what Tiger has decided.
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Michael, clearly it's over the top, and I don't think i'd want to be there, but at the same time I think it is good for golf since it's only once per year. It is very rowdy, but it also looks like fun. I think the players that play in this event are ones that don't mind it as much or thrive on it, whereas the guys that hate that kind of stuff never show up. There are so many events on tour and plenty of monotony, I think it's ok just because it's different and a change of pace.
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Michael Moore,
NO,
What's next, the Pit ?
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While I do not enjoy the loudness or ruckus, I find it entertaining and appropriate that we have brought back the closeness of spectators to golfers lost somewhere between 1960 and 1965, at which period ropes and distance then separated those watching from those playing. Look at some of the great spectator photographs from the 1930s...spectators completely surrounded greens, which then were about 3,000 s.f.
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Patrick, I don't think you have to worry about that, the 13th at North Berwick couldn't hold 10,000 fans ;D
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Curtis Strange said if the players don't like it then don't come which is what Tiger has decided.
Which is ironic, since he was one of the earlier instigators to the madness there, with his "raise the roof" ace there back in '97. He was totally into it then and was as excited as the crowd. I guess he's 'matured'.
Maybe I have the wrong tournament, but wasn't this also the location of the group of spectators helping him move the otherwise immovable boulder?
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Its probably not a good idea in the long run, as things will undoubtedly get worse. There was some of what you are describing at Bethpage, and it seemed okay, but I could see where over time it would likely get out of hand.
On the other hand I would rather have that, than the drunk, cigar-smoking corporate types who end up at the US Open each year.
One corporate (free pass) guy actually gave me crap for taking up space in the stands (I was a volunteer on my day off) that should be reserved for paying customers. Pretty ironic!
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Joel,
Tiger also did not like that a few years ago a person was found with a gun in the Tiger Woods Crowd.
Tiger also uses that as a excuse(good or bad?) that he no longer trusts the Pheonix Open security.
But overall, the crowd is overall good for the tour, but I agree that if that was the case every week then there would be some problems.
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Andrew,
I was not aware Tiger has mentioned this since the incident. If you know otherwise, I'd like to know.
Also, "security" in the happening in Phoenix was actually two peace offers assigned to Tiger's group that day and the chap with the gun had been issued a concealed weapons permit from the State of Arizona. He was being obnoxious following a warning and, when approached by the officers, began to let his alcohol level show — it was in this intereaction that the officers learned the fan was carrying a weapon and immediately wrestled him to the ground and disarmed him. The man never drew his firearm, nor was he threatening Tiger with it — he was just showing his power toward the officers by stating that he "had a gun, too."
At many other events I could envision a different scenario. Security at the Phoenix Open (excuse me, FBR Open) is extremely tight.
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Forrest,
Maybe Tiger did not mention it,
that would have been rude to the sponsors,
but I heard that it was a possible reason on why he no longer goes to the tournament.
I believe the course sets up really well for him and I am surpirsed he never won at the the FBR.
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Doug Siebert,
I was referencing the Globe Theatre
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I can't imagine that Tiger would be put off by a big crowd! I'm sure there must be other reasons why he doesn't play in that event any more.
I think it's great makes for good TV and attracts people to the sport which has long been tainted by an old fuddy duddy image, especially in the UK.
Before anyone says "we don't want that kind of person taking up the game" as soon as they start to play they will at least have a chance to see why we all love it so much. Anything that brings in new and younger players to this great game has to be a positive thing.
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Very little of the PGA Tour is good for golf.
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Scott,
The answer to your question is yes, this is the tournament where Tiger had the boulder removed.
I don't mind the 16th for this hole and this event only (It seems absurdly appropriate to run alongside the Super Bowl), but I'll bet it comes to a crashing halt over the next few years. Some moron will start yelling in a backswing and a player/caddy gets riled or an overserved college frat boy makes a poor decison when being interviewed by Judy Rankin (I bet she just can't wait to be there again today).
On a side note. How about Ricky Barnes hitting an 180+ yard 8 iron yesterday on I believe, 15? WHAT? :o
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I visited the 16th today and can report that the crowd was behaved, all-be-them interested in yelling immediately following any shot — and I mean ANY shot. Among the most entertaining traits was the continual "wave" initiated in between groups among the crowd at the completely encircled hole. Most of the pros seemed to be having a good time with the Phoenix crowd. I suppose there was not much else they could do as they hunted for some of the $5,200,000 purse money.
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There is often talk on the tour about the Tiger events, and the non-Tiger events, and the wide split this can potentially create. That the Tiger-less Phoenix has it's niche as a hyped carnival type event is all power to them.
Phoenix always gets enormous crowds, the best of the year worldwide from memory. Mark Calcavecchia (regular winner and automatic starter each year) when asked to confirm that he must regard it one of his favourite tournaments replied "Phoenix isn't a golf tournament". He loves it, and a huge host of the other players love it, and mark it on the calendar every year.
I'll ritually disembowel myself if I ever saw such a phenom at that pretty place in April, or at a US Open. But I can't believe there isn't room for it at least once a year, such as at an event played in winter in Arizona. If we are going to pick out an event that has a crowd phenom that hurts the tour, lets not choose one that routinely attracts enormous crowds without Tiger.
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Not for me, sorry!
(Although, it's the first time I've ever seen my girlfriend smile, with anything to do with golf!)
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Now just why is this bad for golf, other than making things a little tough on the players, who are coddled and pampered everywhere else?
I have friends who've been there and they say it's more fun then they've ever had watching golf, or other sports for that matter. Hell yes it's one big cocktail party...
You have 10,000 people all interested in the game, or at least watching it. With all these stories and books about golf dying, this is bad? Shouldn't interest in golf - even crass like this - be encouraged?
Hell, I'd love to be there, myself - looks like a lot of fun. And man if golf is dying, I can't see that discouraging raucous interest like this is the best way to resucitate it. But I surely could be wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me to complain about golf dying on the one hand and say this is wrong on the other.
So long as the players remain safe, I say long live this event.
TH
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;D ;D ;D
Me too! I really was wishing for that... god that would be cool.
TH
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Tom,
I suppose, I'm looking at it from an ex pros point of view. I have no problem as long as it's quiet 'enough' on the tee at the point of final address. I watched this weekend and it looked fun, but in the weir group, weir had it quiet, whilst sluman and the big lad had some noise pollution.
But that being said, thoughts do go back to Fred Couples (?) and Tiger Woods shots and the crowd reaction which were umbelievably good tv with the the beer cans etc etc.
Architecturally, the hole looks a great one... Is it?
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I have no idea about the golf hole. It plays well on EA Sports Tiger Woods Golf video game... ;D
So ok, sure, there are competitive imbalances created also. But jeez, to me these pros are so coddled as it is, they can live with some unfairness on one hole. No offense! ;)
I just continue to not get how if the game is dying, interest like this is bad.
TH
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Tom,
I agree, and thought on Sat. that the atmosphere looked fun and o.k. for the players, and that Curtis (Very) Strange was off-base in his negative comments during that telecast about the crowd.
However, DeMarco's comments in the paper this morning indicate that the crowd singled him out for harassment yesterday because he was in contention with and playing with Kaye, who has been a Phoenix resident since 2nd grade. I didn't see it (I was playing golf!) but would be interested to hear the takes here on what actually happened.
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Tom,
None taken believe me..
The game is not dying, I don't buy that argument... whoever said that. The womens game is growing, the mans game is growing...
Yes, they are coddled, that is definate! but, as long as each player can have the chance to execute a shot with three holes to play for the chance to win, I don't care how much money for, whether it's me and you on the links or weir and mickelson at Pheonix, lets keep the gamesmanship between the players and not the crowds..
j
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AGC:
I'd guess that crap like that is gonna happen, and they're always also gonna favor Mickelson and other locals... But hell, again for me the good outweighs the bad. We have here huge interest in golf as an event, at a time the sport is allegedly hurting. Pros whining about it will just speed the demise... man we as fans ought to be behind the fans, not pampered pros. Of course there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and at some point it could get out of hand - but for me that's just when physical danger is imminent, and that hasn't happened yet.
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Hall Sutton made an interesting comment on Saturday while watching all the players tee off on #16. (goodness is he dry and adds very little beyond the obvious)
"We need to remember that this IS a golf tournament".
Ok Hal, what do you mean by that? PGA Tour players want to play for $4-6M purses each week, on perfectly green and manicured courses and only play at the events that overly coddle them before and after the rounds. But when those people that are ultimately paying the cost of the purse (via tickets and food/beverage sales) decide to loadly cheer AFTER each shot, then this is no longer a golf tournament? So you expect them to just show up and walk the course and remain silent?
And I don't buy into the argument that it's distracting to players on #15 or #17, because they clearly showed them waiting to play around the roars from #16. Yes it adds a few minutes to each round, but nothing more significant that the time it takes for DiMarco to go through that elongated pre-shot routine.
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I see it both ways. It is more than just a golf tournament - it is professional sports entertainment event. And, in the case of the "Thunderbirds" reasons for putting this on, it is to raise money for charity-community purposes. So, having a venue that is a big entertainment hoot that happens to focus on or take place during a golf tournament is almost incidental. A lot of things come together that particular weekend. The superbowl usually that weekend, the snowbirds in town to get out of northern winters, and lots of 18-20 somethings looking for something to entertain themselves with that involves copious amounts of alcohol.
But, the danger is having this mentality spread within other tournaments. It already exists to some extent with the Ryder Cup with all the "war by the shore" hype and crowd interaction with the likes of Monty. As the demographics of golf continue to reflect the latest X-generation, they reflect the values and attitudes that are pounded into their head with every hyped sporting event, trash talking jock show, 'do the dew' and various beer commercials where infantile to extreme jackass stupid behavior is encouraged in the name of marketing.
Some of the PGA tour players are just starting to have their little personal showboating everytime they make a birdie. Actually ChiChi started it with the sword dance. Currently it is Tiger and the fist pump. When will the showboating go mainstream and every tour player try to out do eachother's birdie putt hole out dance? (i.e. corresponding to football's endzone dance) When will the tour have to levy a fine. I say it is coming.
As a side note, I could never understand how someone would park their behind on a bleacher at one hole and say they watched a golf tournament. If I couldn't wander the course and jump back and forth watching several holes and groups at various stages of the round, I wouldn't bother to walk across the street to just sit in one place at one hole. IMHO
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RJD,
If you ever get the urge to park yourself in the bleachers, take the back/right corner behind no. 8 at Augusta National Golf Club and watch the approaches on nos. 1 and 8 and the tee shots on 9. Well worth the walk across the street :)
Off Topic: Some of the greatest time I spent with my Dad was in lawn chairs behind the 3rd green at Colonial CC during the Danny Thomas Memphis Classic. There was an obscure parking lot less than 75 yards behind the green. Mom would load us up with country ham and biscuits and fried chicken and we'd watch the entire field play through, then head home to catch the finish on the tube.
Mike
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RJD:
Ever been inside a corporate tent at a golf event? If not, I HIGHLY recommend it. I've been lucky to do so several times at the AT&T and well... as great as Pebble is, I must admit I never left the tent. There is more to life than looking at golf courses... ;) ;) ;)
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Tom,
Bar ladies? ::)
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JJSE - no, not for me - I tend to go to these things either with my wife or her father!
;D ;D
But such are good, well, er, eye candy.
Re your comment above - missed that - my thoughts re "the game is dying" hearken to Geoff's book, plus all the articles in the recent golfweek as described by Tuco... With all that, I thought "the game is dying" is a given... one I sure don't accept, but I'm working with. ;)
And you're right, with the game on the line this does kinda suck for the pros. But hell, it's only this one tournament... if this is how it were all over, then perhaps some reigning in would need to occur. My read is that this remains the exception... when it becomes the rule, then we might have a problem. But not until then!
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Tom,
Point taken on both sentences.
Good to hear you come to that conclusion...
Bill,
We go next week to SF and work down the coast through Monterey and on to San Diego and then into the desert - so due of your recco, I will head there.
Thank you.
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as great as Pebble is, I must admit I never left the tent. There is more to life than looking at golf courses...
but is there more to spectator golf than watching it played out, and watching it on great golf courses?
Huck, Yes, I've been in corporate tents... ::)
If I were at the AT%T at PB and I never made it out of the grandest of grand tents, I'd consider it mercy if someone would just shoot me and put me out of my misguided delerium. But golf is a great big game and there is room in the tents for anyone, if you have proper credential badges... ::) :P
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RJD - cool!
I only mentioned it to say that there are different ways of treating this, that's all. Please remember that living where I do, I've seen Pebble a LOT. So the choice came down to free food, free drinks, very comfortable sofas, big-screen TV's... or traipsing around a course with 50,000 other yahoos trying to get a glimpse of Tiger. I saw more of him, and more of the course, in the tent than outside of it!
Bottom line is this though: make it a course I haven't seen, and well... I'd at least leave the tent for a few hours.
When it comes to golf courses, I'm into playing far more than looking anyway. And free meals have a powerful effect.
;D ;D ;D
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Our culture, decorum and civility are eroding by the day, so what happens at #16 is nothing remarkable (sorry for the cynicism, but I was cut off in a parking lot this weekend by a woman in an huge SUV who waved at me to stop so she could pull out in front of me while she talked on her cell phone, then flipped me the bird when I mouthed my vulgarity-free displeasure at her selfishness; then Janet Jackson entertains million of unsuspecting Super Bowl viewers by concocting a simulated sexual assault at halftime.)
The fact is, class and respect are eroding more slowly at golf tournaments than just about anywhere else I can think of. Where else in our society can 10,000 drunken, raucous people suddently silence themselves long enough to let a millionaire swing a golf club in undisturbed peace?
Were I one of the pros, I think I'd ask the fans at 16 to start roaring as soon as I put my peg in the ground, and keep it up until I'd finished hitting my shot. I think it would be energizing to hit a ball with 10,000 people cheering for you, and it would probably create less tension than wondering in the back of your mind if one of the yahoos was going to yell "You da man" or "Noonan!" or "It's in the hole" on my downswing.
But that's just me. I think pros who prefer silence are entitled to it, and under these circumstances, we should be amazed that they get it -- routinely.
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Every year at 16 there are several abrupt stops in forward swings! The best I recall was Gary McCord who waggled and made a believable swing down only to stop short and then smile and point his finger at the bleachers and the caught-off-guard fans who had already begun their wild yelling with no regard for where the ball was going or how accurately.
Yesterday someone did a similar fake-out...but I can't recall who. I was 180 yards away.
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Both Rick's and Forrest's posts warm my heart. Rick's because I hadn't thought of it that way - it does say something that at the very least, 10,000 drunks can be silent when they are supposed to; and Forrest's because I did want to believe that at least some tour pros had a sense of humor!
;D
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At least there was no "wardrobe malfunction" in the crowd ::)
Mike