Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Foley on March 10, 2025, 08:32:21 AM
-
Thinking broadly, Augusta National appears to be the model, but were there others before that? Pine Valley was possible but was it National or Regional/Local? For most, if not all, I assume there is always a local contingent as a baseline. Mountain Lake & Crystal Downs were always seasonal clubs. Prairie Dunes was never a national destination until the course became well known (1980's?). How did we get to the explosion in the. let’s come in for a few days whether it’s as a single, you and a partner or a bigger group? As society became more affluent, travel becomes more realistic as more discretionary resources become available. The popularity iof the game increases w/ more TV coverage. These things have a large effect.
Would Sand Hills and it’s success be the tipping point? With that success comes Ballyneal, Dormie, Sutton Bay, Ohoopee, Tree Farm, etc.. which continues at a spectacular rate. Is it sustainable? I’m sure there will be some shake up, there always is. That’s not the question I’m asking.
How did we get here and was it a thing outside Augusta before Sand Hills?
-
While ANGC may have been the first club to promote themselves as a national club, I think it would be a stretch to describe themselves as the first destination club.
Jones himself was involved in another destination club just a few years prior to Augusta National with the opening of Highlands Country Club in the mountains of North Carolina. Much like how Augusta provided a winter getaway for the Atlanta elite, Highlands was built as a summer getaway.
There are also numerous old summer housing social clubs that were built along the northern lakes that also included golf courses. Belvedere in Charlevoix, Michigan, for example, attracted families from places like Nashville, St. Louis, Louisville, and Cincinnati during the summers.
One big consideration, for a very long time, these clubs were limited in who they attracted based upon transportation limitations. Even Augusta National didn't truly become a national club until after the great expansion of air travel. Prior to that the membership was primarily coming from Atlanta and New York.
-
I would say the answer to this question is Pine Valley. It wasn't developed with the concept of "destination golf" in mind, nor was any Golden Age course, really, because travel was too hard back then. [You could make a case for Mid Ocean Club.]
But by 1980, when I started in the business, Pine Valley was definitely a "destination club," and it is the model that Sand Hills was based on, and all the others that have followed.
Augusta is such a tough ticket that it really doesn't count in this category.
-
Didn't Seminole open in 1930, 2 years ahead of AGNC?
-
Pinehurst is probably the answer here, unless you are not including resort/public courses.
Even in Augusta, there was destination golf prior to ANGC being built.
-
Pinehurst is probably the answer here, unless you are not including resort/public courses.
Even in Augusta, there was destination golf prior to ANGC being built.
I was thinking of Pinehurst too. I think the railroad lines had alot to do with the accessibility back then. You didn't drive across country before WWII much of the long traveling was done by train. Most people in the cities didn't own cars, just like today.
I recall a story about the late owner of Cog Hill being called by Al Capone in the late 1920's asking for clubs on his way to Miami via train. Jemsek brought 4 sets to the Kankakee train stop on their way south.
-
Didn't Seminole open in 1930, 2 years ahead of AGNC?
I guess it depends on the definition of national destination. From my understanding society migrated from the north in the warmer months to the south in the winter. This thread shows quite a bit about FL golf in the 20's.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57804.50.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57804.50.html)
When money was flowing the destination clubs in FL did well. Trains full of folks from Chicago.
-
But by 1980, when I started in the business, Pine Valley was definitely a "destination club," and it is the model that Sand Hills was based on, and all the others that have followed.
Augusta is such a tough ticket that it really doesn't count in this category.
Thanks Tom & Ben - that's what I was wondering.
You can always go to places to get away, but they were public. Pebble, Pinehurst, Hawaii (Mauna Kea was first?). The exclusive nature where you go and it's restricted to members was such a different concept.
I think once people figured out that if you build it they will come it took off.
-
Feels like even though it's only 30 years old that Sand Hills might be the first or reignited the private national thing.
I realize that travel has changed drastically in the last century plus but let's just look at some of the courses mentioned so far in this thread.
Pine Valley when build was still very close to major metro.
Augusta wasn't a big city but it wasn't Mayberry either and there were other cities fairly close.
Seminole was in an area that was popular vacation spot.
Sand Hills still is far from a large city and very few are vacationing in that area. Maybe having seen Field of Dreams inspired Youngscap, if you build it, they will come.
-
Roaring Gap?
1925.
-
I think there needs to be a delineation point. Are we talking the Pine Valley/Sand Hills model or the Augusta/Seminole model? If it’s the latter, I’ll nominate Palmetto. From their website:
“Palmetto Golf Club was founded in 1892 by Thomas Hitchcock, a prominent sportsman from Long Island, New York. He and his wife attracted many wealthy families from the Northeast who established a Winter Colony in Aiken. These winter residents created several recreational facilities for polo, fox hunting, horseback riding, and tennis. Several large estates were constructed in the heart of Aiken in the vicinity of the Palmetto Golf Club, many of which continue to exist.”
That sure sounds like the destination model to me. But if it’s the self-contained private resort-ish stay ‘n play for four days and leave thing; I think that’s pretty new outside of PV.
-
If you reside there then that has been available for a while. In my mind this has been round for a long time whether it's public / resort (Pinehurst for ex) or private (good call on Palmetto).
If it's a come visit then leave then it's PV as stated but that's along time from then to Sand Hills. Any other candidates who would have been doing it? Gotta think Prairie Dunes had something but not sure when.
-
Tom, Crystal Downs could be a destination club. All those folks from "down south" had homes there.
-
I guess I don't really understand the question. Pretty much all country clubs existed as an escape from the nearby urban center. So any country club of sufficient prominence becomes "national," but they're not really national, because plenty of folks live a short drive from the club (especially clubs in long island and new jersey).
If we're going to look at clubs that are genuinely national clubs, that is, they were built without an urban center in mind, I think it's going to have to be clubs that form after the proliferation of jet travel, and I would peg that at the introduction of the 707 around 1960, with private jets following shortly after. I know there are a few rich folks that could spend that kind of money, but air travel doesn't really become affordable for something like golf travel until the 1980s. Even then you really need the club to be 3+ hours drive from any metro area to prevent it from being heavily influenced by the urban center.
-
Tom, Crystal Downs could be a destination club. All those folks from "down south" had homes there.
Tommy:
When I joined Crystal Downs in 1988, their only question for me was how did I intend to use the club? They said they were basically there for members and families who spent the summer in the area, and didn’t want to be a destination for business-oriented golf.
I told them I just loved the course and planned to live in Traverse City, and they said okay. But I think now they require members to have a place within 30 miles of the club.
-
I'd suspect even the clubs on the far end of Long Island had this going for them when first built. Took a far more deliberate effort to get there back then and I suspect likely included a few nights stay.
-
While we don’t know our future, the prospect of better health and longer life opens the mind to more possibilities. And there are more people. Plus, people from all walks of life travel more. I assume the same reasons have led to more second homes.
-
I'd suspect even the clubs on the far end of Long Island had this going for them when first built. Took a far more deliberate effort to get there back then and I suspect likely included a few nights stay.
No, Shinnecock Hills Station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinnecock_Hills_station) is completed in 1887 as part of the Montauk Branch of the LIRR. Unsurprisingly, Shinnecock is founded in 1891, a few years after the station opens exactly because it makes the location accessible.
-
I'd suspect even the clubs on the far end of Long Island had this going for them when first built. Took a far more deliberate effort to get there back then and I suspect likely included a few nights stay.
No, Shinnecock Hills Station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinnecock_Hills_station) is completed in 1887 as part of the Montauk Branch of the LIRR. Unsurprisingly, Shinnecock is founded in 1891, a few years after the station opens exactly because it makes the location accessible.
Yes and no.
Trains in that time period only ran 25-30 MPH, not counting stops for pickups.
At roughly 100 miles from downtown NY to the far end of Long Island, you're still looking at a 4+ hour trip each way. I suspect its highly likely a visit to the club was a 3 day 2 night type deal to make it worth it.
-
I'd suspect even the clubs on the far end of Long Island had this going for them when first built. Took a far more deliberate effort to get there back then and I suspect likely included a few nights stay.
No, Shinnecock Hills Station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinnecock_Hills_station) is completed in 1887 as part of the Montauk Branch of the LIRR. Unsurprisingly, Shinnecock is founded in 1891, a few years after the station opens exactly because it makes the location accessible.
Yes and no.
Trains in that time period only ran 25-30 MPH, not counting stops for pickups.
At roughly 100 miles from downtown NY to the far end of Long Island, you're still looking at a 4+ hour trip each way. I suspect its highly likely a visit to the club was a 3 day 2 night type deal to make it worth it.
Right but this is the point of a country club. You leave the city, and head to the country, typically, you have a small cabin and you spend your weekends there, if not having your home in the country and only a pied-à-terre in the city.
This is why I'm confused by the concept of what we're talking about, as a "national"-style club seems entirely like the modern iteration of the country club, just for people who don't mind significant air travel. It sort of only makes sense to me to call something a "national" club with there's honestly no reason for people to travel that distance except to visit the club, which means it would have to be 4+ hours drive from any urban center. Which pretty much only leaves clubs in the "empty belt" between the border of Montana and North Dakota and the Big Bend region of Texas. It's unsurprising to me that this is where Sand Hills and Ballyneal both are.
-
Excuse an observation from across the Pond...but surely it all started with NGLA?
It says it on the Tin...
-
Wasn't Yeamans Hall an overnight train ride from wall street back in the day?
-
Another potential inspiration for the concept of distance or "National" membership might be New Zealand Golf Club, Brooklands, Surrey.
Founded 1895.
It may be apocryphal (and unsure if still the case now, as it is a very private low-key club) but back in the early 2000's we were told that membership has always been restricted to those who lived more than 25 miles away from the course, and for golfers who also had at least one other club. Thus the course was never too busy and retained a unique relaxed personal playground atmosphere. We joked that the other stipulation to membership was, you can only join if you play golf with your dog!
It's a joy to play, a special course.
Sean's Tour here:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36467.msg745045.html#msg745045 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36467.msg745045.html#msg745045)
-
The thread may be intended to be US centric, but Royal St Georges (1887) is possibly a good early example of a destination membership.
-
It is my understanding that Pine Valley was conceived as a local club for Philadelphians who were looking for a place to play in the winter, as it was closer to the Jersey shore and so had less snow. It’s only been in the last 40 or so years that it changed from a Philadelphia club to a national/international club.
-
Matt,
I think there is a difference between a country club and a national club because many clubs that are called “country clubs” (implying they are out in the country) are really located in suburban areas that are basically housing communities where residents commute into the nearby city.
I grew up in such a community: Pelham Manor, NY. where Pelham Country Club is located. My recollection going back to the 1960s is:
1) pretty much every member lived in Pelham
2) there were basically no businesses or jobs in the community; residents commuted into New York by train (a 30 minute ride to Grand Central) or by car which was often a big hassle due to traffic
Pelham is much like the rest of Westchester County: quite a few golf courses in bedroom communities, not cabins in the country.
Today I am a member at Old Barnwell. Yes, there are some local members, but last I checked most of the members aren’t. The club, IMO, is a national club not a local country club.
Tim