Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on February 10, 2025, 02:02:41 PM
-
Herein there are frequently comments about places to go.
Where are some places that are best avoided?
Many possible reasons … can be resort, pay-n-play, visitor at private club ……
… facilities
… condition
… patron actions/behavior/vibe
… location
… other
Atb
-
Pebble Beach after noon. It is obviously worth playing, but teeing off after noon is a recipe for the longest round of your life
-
Interesting question. When my friends who are traveling to Scotland for the first time ask me where to play, I suggest to avoid Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns (slow play, vibe, value for cost), but they always ignore me. In the US, the only two places that we have been fairly recently that I would avoid are PH4 and 8 (value for money, slow play especially on PH4). My wife would add Streamsong because of the vibe despite the quality of Blue and Red.
Ira
-
The one place that comes to mind for me is Torrey Pines South, it is a nice course in a great setting that is not worth the price, couple that with the 5-6 hours it takes to play and it would have to rank high on any list of places to be avoided.
-
Pebble Beach after noon. It is obviously worth playing, but teeing off after noon is a recipe for the longest round of your life
I’m absolutely sure you are right… but leave your clubs in the car and head out for a walk 3 hours after the last tee time with only 2 hours left of sunlight and it is pretty heavenly. Or so Robin Hiseman and I found in September.
-
Pebble Beach after noon. It is obviously worth playing, but teeing off after noon is a recipe for the longest round of your life
I would give this advice for any popular muni (afternoon weekend rounds) in any populated area around the country. By far and away my slowest rounds were always due to disregarding this rule...
P.S. I haven't run into any of the reasons Thomas listed in his original OP, although I can certainly think of a few based on value... aka what you pay vs what you get.
-
Bethpage Black after 1:00 pm, any day of week. It will be a long round and walk in the dark.
Any municipal course in NYC on weekends in the summer. Expect at least 5 1/2 hour round, avoiding random golf balls, and a lot of waiting. However, you meet a lot of interesting people.
-
Glen Club near O'hare airport....peak rate last year with cart was $250! ??? ???
Go play Ravisloe for less than half the price
-
Caledonia and True Blue in mid-March. The spring break crowd and buckets of beer make for 6-hour rounds.
-
The International, under the flight path of planes landing at Schipol, just by the motorway. Lovely cart paths, though.
-
The Pointe at Lookout Mountain AZ - To quote my old boss, the late Sandy Jones (CEO PGA) "A waste of a good desert"
Marbella Golf & Country Club, Marbella, Spain - Brutally tight RTJ course on overly steep land. Another PGA colleague, the late Les Massey, was asked who had helped in the design (this was during the Gulf War for context) he suggested the design associate was "Saddam Hussein, as it's just torture"
-
Pebble Beach after noon. It is obviously worth playing, but teeing off after noon is a recipe for the longest round of your life
Unique situation but senior year in high school I'd play Pebble once a month. Would start about an hour or so after the last tee time. Worked out pretty well as we'd catch the group in front around 15/16 and play 18 at sunset (occasionally in the dark). Some of my favorite memories on a golf course.
Understand if paying rack rate most people wouldn't be willing to do this.
-
Pebble Beach after noon. It is obviously worth playing, but teeing off after noon is a recipe for the longest round of your life
I didn't play in the afternoon at Pebble but I did wish when it was over that it had taken longer.....
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
-
As much as I genuinely like the course, Galloway National on a July/August afternoon when the Greenhead flies are out and a'bitin!
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
Looking at the 2024 Score Golf Top 100 in Canada, 26 out of the top 50 courses (and 52 out of the top 100) were built after WWII by someone other than Thompson or Whitman. Is Score Golf a bad list to use as a starting point when targeting courses to play in Canada?
-
As much as I genuinely like the course, Galloway National on a July/August afternoon when the Greened flies are out and a'bitin!
Steve,
If beer is proof of a loving God, greenhead flies introduce doubt.
-
As much as I genuinely like the course, Galloway National on a July/August afternoon when the Greened flies are out and a'bitin!
Steve,
If beer is proof of a loving God, greenhead flies introduce doubt.
What does the CC of the Poconos introduce?
-
As much as I genuinely like the course, Galloway National on a July/August afternoon when the Greened flies are out and a'bitin!
Steve,
If beer is proof of a loving God, greenhead flies introduce doubt.
Mike,
Hahaha! So damn true. I imagine the members are part-time atheists!
Congrats to you, Joe and Mayday on your Eagles victory. It was sheer domination and now that Lurie has built a true championship organization, even I can take joy in an Eagle rout! Naturally though, the football gods have punished me for having made my only bet a wager that Saquon would have a TD! C’est la vie!
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
Looking at the 2024 Score Golf Top 100 in Canada, 26 out of the top 50 courses (and 52 out of the top 100) were built after WWII by someone other than Thompson or Whitman. Is Score Golf a bad list to use as a starting point when targeting courses to play in Canada?
Both the ranking and golf isn't great. If you want to see a more accurate ranking the old beyond the contour rankings were very good.
World Top 100 isn't bad either. I avoid the marketing write off that is Score these day for everything except the occasional Lorne Rubenstein article.
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
Looking at the 2024 Score Golf Top 100 in Canada, 26 out of the top 50 courses (and 52 out of the top 100) were built after WWII by someone other than Thompson or Whitman. Is Score Golf a bad list to use as a starting point when targeting courses to play in Canada?
Brian, as much as I like Ben he's a pessimist on Canadian golf. And perhaps for good reason.
I love my country and I think there is plenty of value and great courses from coast to coast. Perhaps not at the same level as America or the UK but those are clearly exceptions on a global scale.
Canada is massive so logically speaking you can't really play them all in a week. But there are plenty of pockets.
Feel free to DM me if you have any questions. Of course I am not the authority on golf in the country but I am happy to help.
Beyond the Contour used to be a good resource, but the Top 100 lists didn't make their way to GCA on transition. I can share with you if you'd like.
Top 100 Golf Courses is a fairly good list and the depth lists provincially are decent as well. No perfect but good enough to do some basic research on.
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
Looking at the 2024 Score Golf Top 100 in Canada, 26 out of the top 50 courses (and 52 out of the top 100) were built after WWII by someone other than Thompson or Whitman. Is Score Golf a bad list to use as a starting point when targeting courses to play in Canada?
Brian, as much as I like Ben he's a pessimist on Canadian golf. And perhaps for good reason.
I love my country and I think there is plenty of value and great courses from coast to coast. Perhaps not at the same level as America or the UK but those are clearly exceptions on a global scale.
Canada is massive so logically speaking you can't really play them all in a week. But there are plenty of pockets.
Feel free to DM me if you have any questions. Of course I am not the authority on golf in the country but I am happy to help.
Beyond the Contour used to be a good resource, but the Top 100 lists didn't make their way to GCA on transition. I can share with you if you'd like.
Top 100 Golf Courses is a fairly good list and the depth lists provincially are decent as well. No perfect but good enough to do some basic research on.
That is useful context. I think I understand where Ben is coming from, but also wonder how any major publication list could be so "off" that ~half of a top 100 is to be avoided. Having said that, there is a publication in my current state (NC) that has comically bad top 100 in state, so I know such things do exist.
Anyway, I definitely do want to learn more about Canadian golf courses, and hope to do a trip or two soon. I suppose this would be best as another topic, but I'd love to know of a trip or two where you could stay in one location for a week or so and play a bunch of good courses (not necessarily just top 100 list stuff) - those "pockets" you mention. That is how I have been visiting the UK and each trip has been better than the next. Of course, as you say, Canada is enormous, so it will take several visits.
Thanks!
-
Re: Canada Top 100/pockets of golf - Its probably best for a new topic. Canada certainly isn't to be avoided, please come and enjoy our friendly nature and beautiful country. Plenty of great golf to be had. Perhaps I or one of the other Canadians here can start. If not done in a week or so I'll start a topic with some key discussion points.
I wouldn't say that there is 50% of a list that should be ignored. It's just that context matters and when compared to our neighbours to the south Canada just isn't deep outside the ~top 40 or so courses. So if you aren't a Canadian and only come a handful of times your depth to a specific area is relatively small but doable in one week (or less) trips for sure.
-
Agree, with you 100% on there maybe 40 course of note with them all being located in 4-5 locations.
But, wouldn't you also agree that a majority of the 40 were built before WW2. With the scatting of extra's the only really rel?vant architects to advance the game after were Thompson and Whitman. With few exceptions and side notes for places like The Derrick Club and Laval Blue. Canadian golf has been intellectual stagnant.
-
TPC Scottsdale is an average course especially without stands where you might pay 500 bucks
-
Joe:
A flashback to CC of The Poconos !!
Perhaps only one of a very few courses that should either have to hole corridors turned into hiking/biking paths or housing.
-
As much as I genuinely like the course, Galloway National on a July/August afternoon when the Greened flies are out and a'bitin!
Steve,
If beer is proof of a loving God, greenhead flies introduce doubt.
What does the CC of the Poconos introduce?
A preview of Hades.
-
Interesting question. When my friends who are traveling to Scotland for the first time ask me where to play, I suggest to avoid Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns (slow play, vibe, value for cost), but they always ignore me. In the US, the only two places that we have been fairly recently that I would avoid are PH4 and 8 (value for money, slow play especially on PH4). My wife would add Streamsong because of the vibe despite the quality of Blue and Red.
Ira
I tell me friends the same thing in regards to CS and KB. While spectacular settings for golf, neither are my cup of tea. You can just drop me off at Crail and pick me up later.
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
I disagree with this statement. It's the worst statement of its kind...and I like Ben!
-
The one golf course that I was revved up to play, that totally disappointed, was Ballyowen in New Jersey. Bills itself as a links course and it isn't. It's soft and hilly and watery and all about golf through the air.
-
A Ballybunion member and frequent Ireland traveler friend told me to skip Old Head and Waterville. Not worth the detour, he said. So, I have followed his advice.
-
...
-
...
-
(https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/data:image/jpeg;base64,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)(https://scg.golfcanada.ca/uploads/facility/Photo/20793_MuskokaBay.jpg)
There's been some interesting things done.
I agree. This is a good golf course.
-
Mandatory cart fees or the cart fee baked into the overall fee.
This covers 99% of most GroupThink(tm) complaints on here.
-
Interesting question. When my friends who are traveling to Scotland for the first time ask me where to play, I suggest to avoid Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns (slow play, vibe, value for cost), but they always ignore me. In the US, the only two places that we have been fairly recently that I would avoid are PH4 and 8 (value for money, slow play especially on PH4). My wife would add Streamsong because of the vibe despite the quality of Blue and Red.
Ira
I tell me friends the same thing in regards to CS and KB. While spectacular settings for golf, neither are my cup of tea. You can just drop me off at Crail and pick me up later.
My answer to these questions depends on what I know or can learn about who they are going with, and what they are looking for, that is, what they like. I may know something about what they like depending on how often I've played with them and where. Vibe is relative. For me, a visitors clubhouse is a bad vibe right off the bat. And being tolerated rather than welcomed in the regular clubhouse may be even worse. And of course that has nothing to do with golf course architecture.
-
A Ballybunion member and frequent Ireland traveler friend told me to skip Old Head and Waterville. Not worth the detour, he said. So, I have followed his advice.
Depends upon what you are detouring from.
The Ring of Kerry is spectacularly time well spent on a drive down to Waterville, and taking in Dooks would be quite fun along the way.
To be fair the price of all three has skyrocketed from the month I spent there in 1991.
I had to convince my host in Waterville to go play Dooks for the princely sum of 6 pounds-he thought I would be disappointed with the conditioning :)
-
,
-
Ouch Simon. Perhaps knowing more about the development and design of Lookout Mountain in Phoenix would be helpful. The course has accommodated 1.5 million rounds since its opening. While today we would do things a lot differently, every square inch was done for a reason — it's rich story whether you like the courser or not.
-
Ouch Simon. Perhaps knowing more about the development and design of Lookout Mountain in Phoenix would be helpful. The course has accommodated 1.5 million rounds since its opening. While today we would do things a lot differently, every square inch was done for a reason — it's rich story whether you like the courser or not.
Not my quotation, which I included as I found it a classic pithy Scottish quip.
I did enjoy it far more than the late great Sandy did...it felt a course of a particular time..that required shot-making many don't possess...I was a younger better player back then so could cope...but desert golf if dialled up can be a very tough exam. We had to play the desert as lateral hazards as too many were losing balls and were nervous of all that the desert contains...esp. Jumping Choya's
Both my examples were very tough courses of that age, we seem to have moved on to more accomodating design for resort golf which may get more commercial success and repeat visitation. But yes I accept there is a place for some to experience a really tough course every once in a while...
I would genuinely love to hear more of its development, I recall it as pretty challenging site...but it is many years ago...on this thread or DM's welcome
Cheers!
-
A Ballybunion member and frequent Ireland traveler friend told me to skip Old Head and Waterville. Not worth the detour, he said. So, I have followed his advice.
Old Head gets undeserved criticism. It has some of the most thrilling shots in golf. Some don't like the inland holes, but it is hard to compete with the cliffside holes.
-
Simon — Thanks. My original routing was six each, par 3s, 4s and 5s. Billy Johnston (PGA Senior Player) was added to the design team and that’s when things went south. I will leave it at that for now. BTW, the ‘Desert Rule’ was crafted by me c. 1985 to attain better pace and respond to the target golf movement here in Arizona where water conservation was taking hold simultaneously with new course development.
-
I played 14 courses over 10 days in Ireland and the only one I might avoid is the one we played driving from the Dublin airport towards Tralee. It was called Adare Manor but it wasn’t the real Adare Manor if that makes sense. Had a few holes adjacent to it and we did play within a few feet of the ruins of a castle…. I realized something was amiss when the price was so cheap…..it did have charm as does almost everything in Ireland!
-
LOL.
Anyone who says playing Pebble Beach is the afternoon is something you should avoid has lost touch. For most golfers, playing PB once under any circumstances is an absolutely dream.
-
PGA National Champions course.
Oooof...some good caddies made it a fun day - two guys in their 60's from Louisville who have been friends since they were 8 and who both loop at Valhalla in the summer.
-
Any golf course in Canada built after WW2 not by Thompson or Rod Whitman. (like any rule there are exceptions, but broadly this is true.)
Not a fan of Cabot Cliffs I see.
-
Today you would have wanted to avoid We-Ko-Pa Sakura as we were behind a bachelors party. 4.5hour round for the whole course behind them, with no marshalls. Apologies all around when we finished but so what. Gorgeous near- Spring day, super firm greens but at $300++ it’s a tough pill to swallow despite the quality. And since no snakes were out there was plenty of rummaging around the scruffy desert to find wayward balls by every group (mine too) to further slow down play.
I liked the course (really liked it) and there was little wind…but for a first timer (most are?) there were enough semi-blind shots and well-placed bunkers and strong doglegs and obtuse greens with run-offs….that all average resort/casino golfers struggle. Make it a private members course where you can grow old with the design and it’s a 3.45-4 hour gem.