Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark_Fine on January 25, 2025, 05:02:05 AM
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Almost universally considered the best designed golf course in the world? With all these ranking discussions going on, I figured if we all can’t agree on this, how could we ever come up with a credible list that is any better than those published today.
So why is PV that good? It is as penal a golf course as it gets and it is an absolute fact that most golfers would rarely if ever post an unadjusted gross score for 18 holes if they played there. Most would be putting at least one or two double digit scores on their card and holding up play forcing caddies to look for golf balls (most who played it know the caddies don’t even want to bother looking most of the time).
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It has significant terrain and deep reserves of sandy soils with a very attractive pine barren scrub heathy texture that is atypical of American golf.
The routing takes you on a journey.
The classical era Colt-ish greens and bunkering are elegant while being a very SPICY challenge.
And the bunkers have more variety in size and shape that just about anywhere in the US.
No two holes are remotely the same. The water holes are a great change of pace at the perfect time.
It breaks rules with things like a forced carries and excessively difficult bunkers.
The double greens on 8 and 9 are a fun twist.
It isn't too long from the regular tees and there are plenty of short/short-ish holes.
It doesn't suffer fools gladly; refreshing that it isn't trying to patronize double-digit handicap retail golfers...plus who cares in a match play environment.
It's a relatively easy walk for the site (there is always some adrenaline), the caddies are always additive and contribute to a pace of play in four hours or less! The club manages to pull off a busy tee sheet without it feeling crowded.
Staff are terrific and vibe in old clubhouse is relaxed with great old memorabilia on display.
It is a historic exclusive club & course and you know it prior to arrival and it is only reinforced while on property...you feel like you are very privileged to be playing in such a magnificent private golf preserve.
It isn't seaside so I put it behind a select few others in the USA but overall it is an incredible experience and experience drives rankings.
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When folks ask me the best course in the US, I unhesitatingly answer "Pine Valley".
That's usually followed with a "why", much like your Muccian thread title, Mark. ;)
I then say, because it as 17 great holes and 1 really good hole and folks differ on which 1 is the really good hole.
That's an oversimplification, but it's true. The scary part is that with a better tree management program and less zen-garden maintenance of the "natural" areas it would be even better.
But, I understand your question. The only things I'd contest is that there is plenty of room off the tee and I can't recall a caddie ever losing one of my balls that wasn't under water...in fact they are scarily adept at finding your ball and then you have to try to play it from some really "unique" positions.
My answer to your question is that the stark, visual, visceral challenge of each and every hole is such that there is almost nothing as satisfying as performing well under such intense psychological and even emotional pressure. And when you don't, you instantly know why it's so gratifying when you do.
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Are we going back to partial titles again? :P
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Almost universally considered the best designed golf course in the world? With all these ranking discussions going on, I figured if we all can’t agree on this, how could we ever come up with a credible list that is any better than those published today.
So why is PV that good? It is as penal a golf course as it gets and it is an absolute fact that most golfers would rarely if ever post an unadjusted gross score for 18 holes if they played there. Most would be putting at least one or two double digit scores on their card and holding up play forcing caddies to look for golf balls (most who played it know the caddies don’t even want to bother looking most of the time).
Mark,
It is a good question. I don’t think I can give a great answer other than to say there are only two courses I might prefer playing day to day: Cypress Point and Royal Melbourne.
Tim
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Almost every hole is a candidate for a list of the best 18 holes in the US. You can tell that every hole was crafted by an artistic and architectural genius or geniuses. I have played it maybe a dozen times, never once do I leave a hole and think, "They should have done this or that differently."
I have double-digit friends who have played it, and like you said, it kicked their butt. If you are straight off the tee, it is playable. Stray off the tee or be stupid, and you will have a long day.
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Good comments, Mike.
I should have added: It is as good a reminder as any course of Macdonald's passage that there is no eternal justice to this game! Take the bitter with the sweet, don't cry and move on. The other guy has to deal with the same thing. It's just one hole.
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Thanks, Colin.
The Card & Pencil set must hate Pine Valley deep down, I suspect.
One of my most enduring memories was standing on the 3rd tee at one-under. One tugged 6-iron later (I'm left-handed) and I walked to the 4th tee at two-over without incurring any penalties. :D
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No idea...never been.
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Architectural overload on every shot
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No idea...never been.
Then why clutter the thread with meaningless posts? ::)
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Almost every hole is a candidate for a list of the best 18 holes in the US. You can tell that every hole was crafted by an artistic and architectural genius or geniuses. I have played it maybe a dozen times, never once do I leave a hole and think, "They should have done this or that differently."
I have double-digit friends who have played it, and like you said, it kicked their butt. If you are straight off the tee, it is playable. Stray off the tee or be stupid, and you will have a long day.
Well said. For me, it's got the hardest par 3 I have played (5), the hardest par 4 I've played (13) and probably the hardest par 5 I've played (15) and yet it still seems playable to me. There's also 8, which is only a hair over 300 yards and yet you can quite easily make 10 on it, but you can also make 3 (fairly easily if you hit the right tier on the green). It all fits together so well too. It's hard, but for better reasons than just it's narrow. It's pretty wide open on many of the holes. It's also the only course I've ever played where if you took any hole off of it and put it on virtually any other golf course, it would be a standout hole.
You also sometimes play courses and it's like - if I hit good tee shots, then this course is very playable - others it's more of an approach shot course and some you have to have your short game on point. Pine Valley is everything. You can't score well because one part of your game is good that day. You better bring your whole bag.
I suspect some of it is also that you hear stories about it being so difficult before you go that you're expecting it. It's brutally hard, but it doesn't feel oppressive while you're playing it. I never felt constricted - some courses I feel like there's no way I can hit the fairway. At Pine Valley it was more like I should hit this fairway if I hit a decent shot. It's very fair in that respect. You can't get away with anything, but you also never wind up in a bad spot after hitting a good shot. It's laid out in front of you.
Archie's thread about ranking the holes there was an interesting thought exercise. I went through every hole and in my head I was thinking "well that's clearly in the top half of holes" about almost all of them. I had to rejig my thought processes to push some of them down to bottom half and those holes are still some of the best I've played anywhere.
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So why is PV that good? It is as penal a golf course as it gets
I strongly disagree. Pine Valley is an incredibly severe golf course, but it is only occasionally penal in a penal/strategic/heroic sense.
In fact, it might balance usage of those three styles better than any other course I know and that’s likely one of the many reasons it has been the consensus World #1 for decades.
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Never played it and doubtful I’m ever likely to but given its reputation for severity if playing from the front tees what kind of minimum carry to reach the fairways with a Driver would be needed? Also, what would be the minimum distance needed to carry any large areas of fairway or 2nd/3rd etc shot hazards? Just curious.
Atb
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So why is PV that good? It is as penal a golf course as it gets
I strongly disagree. Pine Valley is an incredibly severe golf course, but it is only occasionally penal in a penal/strategic/heroic sense.
I'm with Scott here. I've only played PV twice, but both times was surprised how playable the course was. For me 'penal' equates with lost balls and penalty strokes. At Pine Valley, I found the landing areas surprisingly generous, and recovery shots playable from the woods. The challenge was unrelenting, but I don't think I made an X in either round, something I do routinely at my home courses!
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Because it’s beautiful. “Do you lads play this hole or just photograph it?”
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I tend to hate penal courses with water parallel and OB or forced carries over junk. I love Pine Valley. I play the senior tees now and have no trouble with carries except 18.
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Well written posts by all. Some great thoughts and too many for me to respond to each but here are a few comments/ideas to ponder.
If you play Pine Valley enough you will realize most but not all of the tee shots are not overly difficult (if you are a decent player and aren’t intimidated by the forced carries) as the landing areas are generous. However, the approach shots are very demanding and PV might be the hardest second shot course in the game.
When I first played there, the course had a lot more trees and a lot more undergrowth. If you missed a fairway, you generally lost your ball and if you were lucky to find it, it wasn’t playable. Over the years, many trees have been removed and much of the clutter cleared out. There is now sometimes a chance of a recovery shot but they are still very demanding if you are lucky to have one. I have now played the course a few dozen times and watched scratch golfers get humbled, myself included, and higher handicappers state they were elated for the privilege to experience the course but thankful they don’t have to play it every day as it was just way too difficult for them. I have always felt anyone who plays that course without an X on their card (especially if they are a double digit handicapper) has had an incredible round (and a damn good caddie who didn’t mind looking for golf balls in the scrub/woods)!
As I believe Colin stated, PV breaks some design rules as well like all the forced carries. Wasn’t it Mackenzie who said “any good hole should be able to be played with a putter”. Good luck with that on most every hole at PV. I think most of us think Mackenzie knew what he was talking about so how could you give PV a free pass and claim it is the paramount of design?
Furthermore, I think it was Davis Love who once said he loves PV but it really doesn’t require a Driver on any hole? How can a course that doesn’t test a Driver for the top players be the best in the world?
So now you have a course that is irons off all the tees for most pros and is absolutely brutal for higher handicappers and yet it is considered #1!
Also match play vs medal play was brought up. Without question, PV is an exceptional course for match play. But for medal play???? So how important is one vs the other?
And one more point to ponder, the course doesn’t even have rakes and there are foot prints in many of the bunkers! What kind of conditioning is that!
If nothing else, maybe this thread points out that even the consensus best course in the world has a number of controversial aspects that make course rating a very subjective and personal exercise. We all will never agree on the “right” criteria and what is most important for a golf course to be great but that is just fine. Every list has their own methodology for how they arrived at their conclusions just like those who posted here for PV. They are all just lists. Let’s embrace them and talk about them but not bash them.
By the way PV is a 10 :)
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Agree about the demanding approach shots, the 'thinned out' wooded areas, and the great caddies. When I hit a wayward shot that I feared was lost, my caddie would march right to the location of the ball and I was able to punch out and scramble for bogey or double (okay by me!). Not sure 'irons off all the tees for most pros' matters much unless PV were to host a major, which doesn't seem likely. Could be an issue if the Walker Cup returned, as the young guys are LONG.
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Keith,
If you played there enough, you know the course had gotten overgrown and the loss of sand was dramatic compared to early on. They have done a good job thinning out the growth over the past ten years and exposing more of the sand. It definitely helped the playability because there was often no chance of even pitching out until this work had been done. I remember missing right or left on #2 and the caddie just handing me another ball. He would say, what are you going to do if you happen to find it? You will be walking back to the tee if you are playing by the rules.
The beauty of golf is there are so many different playing fields that can be totally different. That is what makes rating courses so hard. There is no perfect ideal golf course design and PV (being the best in the world in the eyes of many) is such an excellent example. How is it even remotely possible to determine the exact order of the best golf courses in the world? You can’t.
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There are so many reasons why Pine Valley is considered my many to be the best course in the World:
1. Variety in the par 4s. The short par 4s are probably the best anywhere but holes like 11 could be argued as the best holes of it's distance anywhere.
2. The two par 5s oppose each other. 7 gets easier with each progressive shot. The tee shot is incredibly tough, the second shot is bit less difficult despite the long carry, the pitch is pretty straight forward and the green is pretty simple. 15 has a massive fairway that progressively narrows on the 2nd that leave a difficult 3rd to a severe green where recoveries are rare.
3. The variety in par 3 holes from the short 10th to the monster 5th.
4. It's an extreme challenge but yields to a great shot.
5. There is plenty of strategy and heroic moments like the tee shot on 6.
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Architectural overload on every shot
I don't know how to use the like buttons [and probably won't learn after 25 years], but this is the most accurate answer so far.
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Even C.B. Macdonald said it was the best course in America.
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Furthermore, I think it was Davis Love who once said he loves PV but it really doesn’t require a Driver on any hole? How can a course that doesn’t test a Driver for the top players be the best in the world?
Actually I think he did not hit driver on any holes [or maybe even didn't carry driver] when he played on the Walker Cup team in the 1985 Matches at PV.
But, Davis was very long before he tuned his swing down to be more consistent with his distances, and PV didn't have any of the back tees that Tom Fazio has added. So I'm not sure that your implication is correct that he wouldn't hit any drivers today. By the same token, it IS correct that he sure wouldn't have to hit driver on any of the holes, but that's probably the case for every course nowadays.
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Never played it and doubtful I’m ever likely to but given its reputation for severity if playing from the front tees what kind of minimum carry to reach the fairways with a Driver would be needed? Also, what would be the minimum distance needed to carry any large areas of fairway or 2nd/3rd etc shot hazards? Just curious.
Atb
I think Bill Shean told me back in the days before the course was lengthened that the longest carry from any tee was the 16th, which was only 165 yards at that point. The carries from the tee really aren't the problem . . . but when you miss a couple and you start gripping the club more tightly, it all goes downhill fast.
The most severe carry on the course for a short hitter is Hell's Half Acre at the 7th. That is only a bit over 100 yards across, but you have to do it from the fairway or rough, and if you are trying to get over in two, it's about 380 yards from the old back tee to do it.
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Only played it once. Thought it was difficult but fair. Demanded more than I had in my bag that day. I’d probably prefer to be a member at PV than ANGC. Likely won’t have the choice. That’s ok because there is so much good golf out there
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Mark Fine, out of curiosity are you a rater?
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Pete,
I am a member of the ASGCA.
Tom,
I have played several rounds with Bill Shean including out at Chicago Golf. Great guy and he would know distances. As you know it is not only the carry distsnce that scares people it is just knowing that they have to make a carry. We have both seen ponds or streams that are 10 or 20 yards wide in front of tees or greens cause constant topping of balls into them.
On #7 it used to be just over 300 to the edge of the half acre (maybe someone here can verify that). As such you had to gauge how close to get. As such, that 100 yard carry over hell’s half acre was always more than 100 yards.
Let’s face it, PV was purposely designed to be difficult and playability was not a high priority and this has nothing to do with fairness as I despise the term when discussing golf course design. It is just brutally difficult. Mackenzie would struggle to play all the holes with his putter even though old putters had more loft on them ;D
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Hello everybody and here I go again. Have been fortunate enough to play some of the very best golf course in the world and every once in a while would think "man this is the best I've ever played . One is even just a quick jump over the bridge from Pine Valley . Some are prettier , some are harder , some are more fun to play (maybe) . Colin and Mike did a great job articulating why it's so good and as architecture wonks here know, it's in the design. Hole after wonderful hole all different and demanding thought and strategy to achieve the optimum score.
Pine Valley appears to be incredibly hard but I'd argue that one should be able to score with a combination of skill and KNOWLEDGE.
The Crump Cup brings some of the best amateurs in the country every year but it's interesting that more than a few local members have won the tournament against players with far better resumes. So a lot of it is between the ears. When it's cranked up to speeds that many courses do all the time it becomes an incredible test of angles and club selection, but you might only see that a couple times a year if at all. The single most incredible day I have ever witnessed was what I call "Bator's revenge" in 1982" . It was so hard that day that only two guys broke 80 in qualifying.
As Mike indicated you can have a really good run of holes but can you finish it off? That wouldn't happen to many of us at a tipped out Butler National or Winged Foot. Pine Valley is one of the only courses in the world where length is not the most important skill.
It just isn't. Right there is a great reason to love it even more!
The greens are so much fun and require a deft touch , yet they don't repel shots like those at Pinehurst #2 . There are no collection areas ( ::) I hate them ) and the drainage is impeccable. I wish they hadn't done just a few things but all in all when you walk in there today you can still see the same crazy little bunkers that greeted golfers fifty (50) years ago. It's not a bad walk either as all the tees and greens are really close.
As you know I could go on and on but as stated my two colleagues hit almost all the high notes ...anyone who gets a chance to visit , make sure you go!
p.s. Mark what you talking about caddies don't want to look for your ball ? Unless things have changed dramatically this is unequivocabally false ..... ;D
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One of these days I'm going to have to write something on the epistemological problems of the reviews of genuinely inaccessible golf courses. Even while hearing folks whose opinions genuinely respect, there's still a part of me that thinks there is so much selection bias involved that we really can't hear a rounded take, because the folks that would probably dislike the place probably wouldn't put in the energy to get there.
Maybe Pine Valley is the cat's pajamas, but I can easily think of parallels and nit picking other courses that are accessible. The reports of sand pros in the waste areas, the quite renovations... I don't know, and it feels like I just can't know.
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Archie,
Thanks for chiming in. By the way, what was the distance to the half acre on #7 from the back tee? I know it has now been lengthened.
Yes caddies will look for balls but you played there enough so you know what I am talking about. Before they cleared out a lot of the understory, it was often not worth looking and as I said, what do you do if you find the ball? I tend to feel I make more doubles there than at any other course and not many bogies. If you miss with your tee shot or your approach, recoveries are tough. I am sure you remember what #5 was like if you missed that green. Good luck extracting yourself from the woods IF you could find your ball. I am not in love with the changes there but you can now find your golf ball and have some kind of recovery shot.
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Mark,
You repeatedly have asserted that GD raters are driven away from here. Yes, I know that you are no longer one after many years of you belonging to that club. Has it ever occurred to you that your need to post/lecture about PV, Oakmont, ANGC, CPC, Gil Hanse, restorations v renovations, and historical research has become so tedious and repetitive that others are driven away? And trust me, I know that I am guilty of repeating stories.
Ira
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Ira,
If you got out and played a few more courses you might find some of this more interesting and be able to comment intelligently and add to the threads.
I have been posting on this site for about 25 years and during that time there will be a lot of things that get repeated. There are also a lot of people visiting this site for the first time and all of this is new to them. I am reminded of a manager at Disney reminding one of his team members, “When someone asks you where the closest restroom is for the two hundred time today, do not forget it is the first time that person asked you the question.”
Ira you might benefit from letting your wife participate on this site vs you as she seems to play the same courses you do and might be more observant of what she sees when she plays them ;D
By the way, in 25 years, this is the first thread I ever started about Pine Valley and why it is a consensus #1. Maybe it will make more people think about bashing all the Top 100 lists and those who do their best to provide their feedback to create them.
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Mark,
I don’t know what century you live in, but my wife does not need my permission to “let” her express her opinions about anything. I am blessed that she loves golf such that we have played great courses all over the world without being raters.
Ira
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Got a little axe to grind with Mark as to the caddies , but it's all in good fun. When I worked there we always had one guy out front to fore-caddie, including the par 3 fifth hole. Whenever possible the guy who stayed on the green pushed out to a middle ground to give more coverage. The scrub (gronkle) is certainly less fierce today, so the need to be out front may have lessened a bit.
Mark back to the seventh hole. In the 1985 Walker Cup , my last year there, the tee shot played a little under 275 to the end of the fairway. I'm going to say the carry over Hell's Half acre wasn't one hundred but exactly 104 yards across at the shortest point. DEAD CENTER . I always thought you could on a crazy day reach it in two, but the really long drivers had to lay up on their tee shot so it stayed virginal for the longest time unlike fifteen, as crazy as that may seem, with 15 being 600 yards and uphill
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Ira,
Lucky for you both to play all that golf without having to be one of those horrible “raters”! All those raters are just out there for free golf and want to brag about where they played. I am sure you feel like everyone one else that they all should be banned ::) Then again maybe if you had a clue what you are looking at you could be one of them and contribute to these lists so they would finally get them right ;D
Archie,
Thanks for your insight on PV. I hope you don’t get ostracized for posting so much about a high profile course like PV that you happen to have played a lot and know very well. Someone will think you are being pretentious ::)
I remembered the distance to reach the acre back then wasn’t terribly far and even I thought twice about hitting a driver some days as I knew the next shot was for position and I just needed to get over the acre (and it is hard to do that from anywhere but the fairway). When Forrest and I wrote our book on Hazards, we mapped out that hole in 2003 and the distance to the acre at that time was 315 yards, the acre was 95 yards to carry and then you had 180 yards to the green.
Getting back to the caddies; they are great and good fun to go around with. But the straighter you are the happier they are :D
One more side point of architectural interest (at least to some), Flynn who was seconded by Wilson at Merion to work at PV when Crump died to help complete the last four holes that Crump never saw finished, got the idea for interrupted fairways from his eight years of experience there. He actually laid out multiple interrupted fairways for courses including his design at Cherry Hills CC but ended up not incorporating most of them in the final design (he did use one however on the 17th hole which is closely patterned after Pine Valley’s 7th). If you had just followed his drawings and not done more research in a restoration you would have not resorted what Flynn ended up building. Just food for thought and sorry to Ira and any others if I mentioned this sometime in the past. Maybe someone new here who didn’t see it before will find it interesting :D
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Pretentious , I can barely spell it ;D
Certainly I do love to talk about my time at Pine Valley. Unique in that I was blessed to be the only caddy ever to be a professional there too! Hoped to be a member someday in my younger days , but alas it didn't come to pass.
My enthusiasm for the place is all about my love for golf and the realization that I was afforded an opportunity to see arguably the very best golf course ever built in such close detail. Also to see it behind the curtain and realize how much work it has taken to keep it "special". Little did I know that when Charley offered me the job in the shop would it would open up entrees to places in golf that people would never get. Particularly coming from my socioeconomic beginnings. So whenever I can share some insights into PVGC that other golf afficionados won't have it's great fun for me. Tom Paul and I used to talk for hours on end about the evolution of the course and just how amazing the genesis of it's coming to be. Crump and his collaborators , including my favorite Mr Flynn just hit it perfect in this crazy little corner of the world.
As I sit here approaching my 69th birthday I can still remember shots hit by my players when I caddied there in the late 70's and early 80's . So vivid are the memories that it amazes me to this day. So if I get a little carried away gushing about the place , forgive me!
Other than personal remembrances and Secretariat's electrifying performances , not much more fun for me than playing there and watching others take their shot. Still hoping I have one more great round there , but time is beginning to wane ;) [size=78%] [/size]
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As to interrupted fairways and Flynn , he designed two at Rolling Green on 17 and 18 but didn’t do them as far as I can see. Wayne Morrison thinks they did 18.
Interestingly they are at 150 from the green not in the landing zone.
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Archie,
Post all you want about PV. I love your comments (even if you repeat them from time to time) ;D Hopefully we can tee it up again together (maybe even at PV)!
Mike,
Yes Flynn often had intentions in his drawings to incorporate interrupted fairways but didn’t always build them. I hear and read about restoration work being done based on a set of original drawings having been found and I shake my head. Not just with Flynn but with most all Golden Age Architects, their drawings were only conceptual and not as built.
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Pretentious , I can barely spell it ;D
Certainly I do love to talk about my time at Pine Valley. Unique in that I was blessed to be the only caddy ever to be a professional there too! Hoped to be a member someday in my younger days , but alas it didn't come to pass.
My enthusiasm for the place is all about my love for golf and the realization that I was afforded an opportunity to see arguably the very best golf course ever built in such close detail. Also to see it behind the curtain and realize how much work it has taken to keep it "special". Little did I know that when Charley offered me the job in the shop would it would open up entrees to places in golf that people would never get. Particularly coming from my socioeconomic beginnings. So whenever I can share some insights into PVGC that other golf afficionados won't have it's great fun for me. Tom Paul and I used to talk for hours on end about the evolution of the course and just how amazing the genesis of it's coming to be. Crump and his collaborators , including my favorite Mr Flynn just hit it perfect in this crazy little corner of the world.
As I sit here approaching my 69th birthday I can still remember shots hit by my players when I caddied there in the late 70's and early 80's . So vivid are the memories that it amazes me to this day. So if I get a little carried away gushing about the place , forgive me!
Other than personal remembrances and Secretariat's electrifying performances , not much more fun for me than playing there and watching others take their shot. Still hoping I have one more great round there , but time is beginning to wane ;) [size=78%] [/size]
Archie,
Just curious. Did you know the caddy for Bob Lewis in the Walker Cup? I’m pretty sure he was also Bob’s caddy when he set the competitive course record.
Tim
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Tim , 98% percent sure it was Joe Falkenstein (RIP) Good guy , serious looper. He was always his caddy in the member guest also.
Lewis could really move it for a guy who probably didn't weigh 150 lbs.
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Ira,
Lucky for you both to play all that golf without having to be one of those horrible “raters”! All those raters are just out there for free golf and want to brag about where they played. I am sure you feel like everyone one else that they all should be banned ::) Then again maybe if you had a clue what you are looking at you could be one of them and contribute to these lists so they would finally get them right ;D
Mark,
I have routed exactly the same number of courses as you have.
Raters are raters. Some know architecture well; some do not. It is what it is.
Ira
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Tim , 98% percent sure it was Joe Falkenstein (RIP) Good guy , serious looper. He was always his caddy in the member guest also.
Lewis could really move it for a guy who probably didn't weigh 150 lbs.
Archie,
That name sounds familiar.
Let me also share my “it’s a small world” Pine Valley version.
In the late 80s/early 90s I lived in Long Beach, CA and my next door neighbor became my golfing buddy.
One night I was having drinks with him and his wife and we got into a Pine Valley discussion. So I happened to mention the famous Woody Platt story and his wife spoke up saying:
“I remember him…..he was my father’s favorite golfing buddy”.
What are the odds!