Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Hal Hicks on January 13, 2025, 11:27:31 AM
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Hal Hicks here. New member. 32 years Golf Course Superintendent at Seminole Golf Club (1989-2021)
Been reading comments about Seminole and thought it was good to comment on some history of Seminole
First of all, Seminole does not have a problem with the water table. As most of you are probably aware,
Donald Ross came up with a very elaborate way of draining the golf course when built in 1929. He designed
a drainage/pumping system when built in 1929 that could drain all the lakes on the floor of the golf course.
Over the past 20 years Seminole has spent a huge amount of money installing pumping sites and invested in
a Siphon Drainage System over the entire floor of the golf course which can actually lower the water table
to provide firm and fast playing conditions even in periods of rain.
In addition, the last fifteen years a considerable amount of sand topdressing has been applied during the
5 months the club is closed between mid-May and mid-October. Over time this obviously raises the floor
of the golf course. In my opinion, and I have heard it from the top leaders at Seminole, they want to
provide a golf course that never closes during the golf season during rainy periods that may occur during
the winter golf season. But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the water table. Just felt like
the truth should be discussed in these days of misinformation on many topics.
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We need a LIKE button! Welcome, Hal. Very interesting background.
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We need a LIKE button! Welcome, Hal. Very interesting background.
There is one, under the name on the left side you'll see "like | dislike" and the Karma reflects that, but I'm still working on changing Karma to a like system for clarity. I believe you'll only see this on desktop and tablet, not mobile.
Either way, this is a great thread. Welcome Keith!
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Thanks, Hal. Appreciate the insight.
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Welcome Hal! Always good to hear from you. Thanks for your input.
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Hal,
Welcome to GolfClubAtlas. Input from people in the business is always a good thing.
Tim Weiman
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Drew, there is no LIKE / DISLIKE button in Chrome, and lots of us use Chrome.
Hal, welcome, congratulations, and thank you for the information.
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Drew, there is no LIKE / DISLIKE button in Chrome, and lots of us use Chrome.
Hal, welcome, congratulations, and thank you for the information.
I'm on Chrome, but it seems to be an issue on which roles can view that function. I'll amend! Sorry to distract from the main point.
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Welcome Hal! Great first post.
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Hal Hicks here. New member. 32 years Golf Course Superintendent at Seminole Golf Club (1989-2021)
Been reading comments about Seminole and thought it was good to comment on some history of Seminole
First of all, Seminole does not have a problem with the water table. As most of you are probably aware,
Donald Ross came up with a very elaborate way of draining the golf course when built in 1929. He designed
a drainage/pumping system when built in 1929 that could drain all the lakes on the floor of the golf course.
Over the past 20 years Seminole has spent a huge amount of money installing pumping sites and invested in
a Siphon Drainage System over the entire floor of the golf course which can actually lower the water table
to provide firm and fast playing conditions even in periods of rain.
In addition, the last fifteen years a considerable amount of sand topdressing has been applied during the
5 months the club is closed between mid-May and mid-October. Over time this obviously raises the floor
of the golf course. In my opinion, and I have heard it from the top leaders at Seminole, they want to
provide a golf course that never closes during the golf season during rainy periods that may occur during
the winter golf season. But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the water table. Just felt like
the truth should be discussed in these days of misinformation on many topics.
Hal,
Interesting and glad to have you here. I was the one talking of the water table, but I was just relaying what Pete Dye told me when I played there. Either he didn't know about the pumping system, or perhaps the topdressing has improved it over the years.
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So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?
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;D
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No worries! Pete Dye probably did not understand fully how the drainage system worked at Seminole. He rarely played at
Seminole my entire career there.
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So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?
From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year. A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years. All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course. Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc. There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others. From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing. The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross. Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.
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Hal,
Thanks for posting. You have confirmed numerous things that have been discussed (and argued here in years part about the golf course in particular about how much Ross is actually left on the golf course). I will leave it at that for now.
I do love the golf course, only played it once so hard to get full perspective.
Surprised and not surprised to see such quick changes, but it happens. I recently worked on a course that Gil worked on in Pennsylvania and frankly it needed to change again. There are all kinds of constraints that architects have to work under and around and this is why sometimes change reoccurs quickly.
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Hal,
Thanks for posting. You have confirmed numerous things that have been discussed (and argued here in years part about the golf course in particular about how much Ross is actually left on the golf course). I will leave it at that for now.
I do love the golf course, only played it once so hard to get full perspective.
Surprised and not surprised to see such quick changes, but it happens. I recently worked on a course that Gil worked on in Pennsylvania and frankly it needed to change again. There are all kinds of constraints that architects have to work under and around and this is why sometimes change reoccurs quickly.
Mark,
Sounds like a topic for an another thread.
Tim
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Hal welcome aboard and thank you for the Seminole information which is one of the gems in the entire country. I noticed you didn't mention GH doing anything with the green specifically. Do they need to reclaim any size and dimensions? I assume they have shrunk over time and not sure when they last were addressed. Raising them while expanding them seems complex.
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Hal welcome aboard and thank you for the Seminole information which is one of the gems in the entire country. I noticed you didn't mention GH doing anything with the green specifically. Do they need to reclaim any size and dimensions? I assume they have shrunk over time and not sure when they last were addressed. Raising them while expanding them seems complex.
Most of my information now comes from some members of Seminole. I have not been back to Seminole since leaving in 2021. I am told it is a fluid situation concerning what Gil Hanse will do with the greens and green complexes. Dick Wilson completely renovated the greens/greenside bunkers in the late 40's. He greatly reduced the size of the greens and installed new "wilson-style" bunkers around the greens at Seminole. I can state that the greens are the same exact size from 1989-2021. There were a few minor internal tweaks to the greens by Coore/Crenshaw to greens #2, #3, #11 and #13 to gain some pin placements due to green speeds. But as stated previously, the Seminole's greens and greenside bunkers are nothing close to the original Donald Ross 1929 design. So everything moving forward will continue to be renovation work to meet
the desires of current power at Seminole.
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Hal,
Thanks for your contribution and that is an interesting take. I first fell in love with Seminole in 2010 and it remains one of my favorite courses to this day. At the time I was doing a bunch of research into Seminole's history because Mr. Dodson's great book left me with a few open questions (a few of which I still have yet to answer).
That lead me to a phone conversation with Robert Von Hagge because he was Dick Wilson's associate at the time Wilson was consulting at Seminole. Mr. Von Hagge was very explicit that although they reworked the bunkering, they were under strict orders to not touch the greens as, in his words, the club felt the Ross greens were "sacrosanct."
In fact, when looking at Seminole's greens, in their current form, compared to other Ross greens of that era of Ross (his re work at #2, Camden CC, etc) there is much similarity. And, certainly much more similarity than, say, Wilson's original greens up the road at Pine Tree.
So, I am surprised to read you say that the greens are "nothing" like Ross's 1929 design. I'll need to take a look at all of that again with a new eye.
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Hal,
Thanks for your contribution and that is an interesting take. I first fell in love with Seminole in 2010 and it remains one of my favorite courses to this day. At the time I was doing a bunch of research into Seminole's history because Mr. Dodson's great book left me with a few open questions (a few of which I still have yet to answer).
That lead me to a phone conversation with Robert Von Hagge because he was Dick Wilson's associate at the time Wilson was consulting at Seminole. Mr. Von Hagge was very explicit that although they reworked the bunkering, they were under strict orders to not touch the greens as, in his words, the club felt the Ross greens were "sacrosanct."
In fact, when looking at Seminole's greens, in their current form, compared to other Ross greens of that era of Ross (his re work at #2, Camden CC, etc) there is much similarity. And, certainly much more similarity than, say, Wilson's original greens up the road at Pine Tree.
So, I am surprised to read you say that the greens are "nothing" like Ross's 1929 design. I'll need to take a look at all of that again with a new eye.
JC,
Thanks for the welcome. Page 70 of The Story of Seminole written by James Dobson relates to Ben Hogan being a big fan
of Dick Wilson designs. Hogan loved Pine Tree and I was the Golf Course Superintendent at Pine Tree from 1983-1989 before going to Seminole. The very first thing that I noticed upon arriving at Seminole was the similarity in design of the green complexes between Pine Tree and Seminole. Not just the bunkering but several of the greens. Wilson was prominent in his greens that had angles either from left to right or right to left. Greens at Seminole such as #2, #5, #6, #8, #11, #12, #13, #15 have similar features. But the main changes from Dick Wilson's renovation of Seminole, in my opinion, from looking at all the original drawings from Donald Ross is that there is much less contour and size compared to the existing greens. I think the more you look at both Pine Tree and Seminole the more Dick Wilson's design features and similarities are apparent.
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Welcome Hal! Always good to hear from you. Thanks for your input.
Good to hear from you again Mitch. Hope all is well with you and family.
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Hal,
Thanks as well for chiming in... a few thoughts on the water table/flooding issue. In my mind, mitigating a problem is different from solving it aka finding a long term solution.
It sounds like its been mitigated quite well with various draining and pumping techniques. But based on your comment in reply 13, sounds like they are now actively working towards a solution in raising the course (or at least for the next 100 years or so until the water level rises that much more).
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Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
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I remember a few years back that Pete Dye supervised the raising of Old Marsh Golf Club where they removed all of the grass, brought in truckloads of fill to raise the course and then regressed it. There is quite an incredible video that Anthony Nysse did of the process including drone shots as he was the greens superintendent at the time and there was Pete Dye supervising the entire operation not too much before he passed away.
It would be great if someone was able to record the work as it is being done at Seminole.
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So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?
From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year. A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years. All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course. Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc. There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others. From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing. The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross. Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.
Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.
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There are old threads that someone smarter than me can pull up where we talked about Seminole and how it had been changed over the years. I had long discussions about the course in the past with Ron Whitten who did a lot of investigative work on the course. I don’t intend to stir the pot again but do appreciate Hal chiming in to set the record straight about some of the changes. The was intense debate in the past (even beyond debate we have had about the non-Ross turtleback greens at Pinehurst #2) ;D
This is a great example of why doing thorough research is so important in restoration work. It is NOT easy and sometimes yields inconclusive results but still needs to be done. You wouldn’t believe how many times I have talked to someone who told me they just played a great Donald Ross course or George Thomas course or a … course and didn’t realize there was little left of the original design outside of the routing.
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So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?
From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year. A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years. All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course. Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc. There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others. From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing. The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross. Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.
Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.
Joel,
It was always amazing to me but there are almost no pictures of Seminole that Donald Ross originally designed. Most of the pictures that are in the historical books at Seminole are more "society type" pictures of people. I am not aware of how Gil Hanse is going to proceed with his work at Seminole. But from past experience, the work performed will be under the approval of the Club President and supervision of the Green Chairman who is on site almost daily. The architects in this group can make comments but my impression is that any renovation to the top golf courses in the United States involves considerable input from the top leaders of the club. It will definitely be a renovation and not a restoration due to almost no historical pictures or documents!
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So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?
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So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?
From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year. A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years. All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course. Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc. There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others. From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing. The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross. Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.
Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.
Joel,
It was always amazing to me but there are almost no pictures of Seminole that Donald Ross originally designed. Most of the pictures that are in the historical books at Seminole are more "society type" pictures of people.
That really is hard to believe.
I am not aware of how Gil Hanse is going to proceed with his work at Seminole. But from past experience, the work performed will be under the approval of the Club President and supervision of the Green Chairman who is on site almost daily. The architects in this group can make comments but my impression is that any renovation to the top golf courses in the United States involves considerable input from the top leaders of the club. It will definitely be a renovation and not a restoration due to almost no historical pictures or documents!
Hal, thanks for all the facts based information re: the club, course, and specifically the subject of drainage.
Ran across an interesting Seminole thread from 2010, here:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43296.25.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43296.25.html)
I haven't had time to absorb/synthesize all of his design & drainage related info but this guy Pat Mucci seems to be on a parallel path as Hal on the topic...
Fascinating stuff!!
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"this guy Pat Mucci" is a wonderful way to phrase that.
That was a great thread, if I do say so myself. But, I can say I am surprised by this narrative around Seminole being more of a Dick Wilson course...
Edit to add:
I won't pretend to know 1 gajillionth of what Hal knows about Seminole. I find this legitimately curious. What looking at what Pat was saying back in that old thread (and Pat was often playing Seminole in the winter), is that if Wilson had done more than move the 18th and work on the bunkering, wouldn't that be something the club would know? And, when I talked to Wilson's associate on the project, what would be his motivation (shortly before his death) to tell me they were instructed not to alter the Ross greens?
I don't have any of these answers to these questions.
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
Never heard of him.
Niall
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
That earns an upvote 😎.
Ciao
Never heard of him.
Niall
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
That earns an upvote 😎.
Ciao
Never heard of him.
Niall
Thank you!!
I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂
FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
That earns an upvote 😎.
Ciao
Never heard of him.
Niall
Thank you!!
I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂
FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙
Dare to dream but the upvote was for Niall from Sean. ;D
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
That earns an upvote 😎.
Ciao
Never heard of him.
Niall
Thank you!!
I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂
FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙
You are absolutely killing it! Not even the Tiger of 2000 USO could catch you at this point!
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Pat Mucci was one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. His presentation often rubbed guys the wrong way but he knew his stuff. I miss him posting here.
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Hal, I have only played Seminole a few times. Every time I play the course, I tell myself, "This is the fastest and firmest course I have ever played." It's nice off the tee, but very challenging shots into the greens. Friends have said the same thing. I played it in April of 2023, just a few days after a rain. It still was F&F. Kudos to you and your successor. I don't know how you can do it.
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"this guy Pat Mucci" is a wonderful way to phrase that.
That was a great thread, if I do say so myself. But, I can say I am surprised by this narrative around Seminole being more of a Dick Wilson course...
Edit to add:
I won't pretend to know 1 gajillionth of what Hal knows about Seminole. I find this legitimately curious. What looking at what Pat was saying back in that old thread (and Pat was often playing Seminole in the winter), is that if Wilson had done more than move the 18th and work on the bunkering, wouldn't that be something the club would know? And, when I talked to Wilson's associate on the project, what would be his motivation (shortly before his death) to tell me they were instructed not to alter the Ross greens?
I don't have any of these answers to these questions.
JC,
I think the club is fully aware that the green complexes and bunkering are not original Donald Ross. Seminole and the Tufts library in Pinehurst have hole by hole drawings and notes included by Ross. We looked at the original drawings in 1990 when converting the greens from overseeded bent grass to bermuda greens. The decision in 1990 was to leave the greens exactly as they existed in 1990 in terms of size and contour because of increasing green speeds. But the original drawings by Ross had considerable internal contour and they were much, much larger. I am not saying that the greens were built exactly like the drawings in 1929 by Ross team, but they were considerably different in both contour and size than today's greens. I am not saying your man is wrong but somebody at some time definitely changed the greens in my opinion. When moving the #3 and #18 green to its current location, it appears that Dick Wilson tried to maintain the theme of the other greens on the course sloping from back to front with roll off on the edges. But it would be interesting if any "experts" on Donald Ross greens would call Seminole's greens and bunkering Donald Ross. I grew up in North Carolina and played Pinehurst #2 many times and those greens are even different today than I grew up playing in the 60's.
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Hal,
Thanks as well for chiming in... a few thoughts on the water table/flooding issue. In my mind, mitigating a problem is different from solving it aka finding a long term solution.
It sounds like its been mitigated quite well with various draining and pumping techniques. But based on your comment in reply 13, sounds like they are now actively working towards a solution in raising the course (or at least for the next 100 years or so until the water level rises that much more).
Kalen,
You are probably right on their decision. But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more than
raising the floor of the golf course. It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course. I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc. Sounds
to me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.
Would be interested in your thoughts.
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Hal,
Welcome to GolfClubAtlas. Input from people in the business is always a good thing.
Tim Weiman
Thanks Tim. Looks like a great group!
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Welcome Hal! Always good to hear from you. Thanks for your input.
Hi Mitch,
Hope you and family doing well! Really enjoyed our day at Seminole a few years ago!
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So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?
Mark,
I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole.
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But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more thanraising the floor of the golf course. It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course. I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc. Soundsto me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.
Hal, I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your point of view yet. You seem to be of the mind that the course as it is currently is more attributable to Dick Wilson than Donald Ross, but at the same time also seem suspicious of how restorations are more like renovations that change the character of the course.
If, as you've implied, the current version of the course is more Wilson, wouldn't it be advantageous for Gil and his team to try to restore more of the Ross character back in the design? Your reference of Oakland Hills is important: their book on Hanse's project, Bringing Ross Back: The Restoration of Oakland Hills, goes through hole by hole detail for how Hanse undid what RTJ Sr. and Rees Jones had done, all under the motivation of reclaiming more of what Ross had first put in the ground. Of course, placement of fairway bunkers and tees have changed to align with modern yardages, but the important element is that the character of what Ross first did was the main priority.
I would trust that Gil's approach to Seminole is not any different, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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"this guy Pat Mucci"
That earns an upvote 😎.
Ciao
Never heard of him.
Niall
Thank you!!
I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle...
FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here...
Dare to dream but the upvote was for Niall from Sean. ;D
Dammit man... :D
You are absolutely killing it! Not even the Tiger of 2000 USO could catch you at this point!
I seem to remember the inimitable Bill Laimbeer once saying -- "better to be hated than forgotten"... ;)
Pat Mucci was one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. His presentation often rubbed guys the wrong way but he knew his stuff. I miss him posting here.
Spot on.
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But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more thanraising the floor of the golf course. It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course. I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc. Soundsto me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.
Hal, I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your point of view yet. You seem to be of the mind that the course as it is currently is more attributable to Dick Wilson than Donald Ross, but at the same time also seem suspicious of how restorations are more like renovations that change the character of the course.
If, as you've implied, the current version of the course is more Wilson, wouldn't it be advantageous for Gil and his team to try to restore more of the Ross character back in the design? Your reference of Oakland Hills is important: their book on Hanse's project, Bringing Ross Back: The Restoration of Oakland Hills, goes through hole by hole detail for how Hanse undid what RTJ Sr. and Rees Jones had done, all under the motivation of reclaiming more of what Ross had first put in the ground. Of course, placement of fairway bunkers and tees have changed to align with modern yardages, but the important element is that the character of what Ross first did was the main priority.
I would trust that Gil's approach to Seminole is not any different, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Michael,
Great comments! My point is that in its current form, in my opinion, the routing is definitely Ross which I think makes Seminole great and what the course is mostly known from. But the bunkering and green complexes seem more in line with Dick Wilson's renovation work in the late 40's. The reason that Wilson was brought in was because the course was let go for 3 years during World War II and then a major hurricane damaged the course. And add onto that Ross had passed away. So major work had to be done to the course. As I mentioned, in 1990 we looked hard at Donald Ross original drawings and specific notes for each hole. The club decided to not change anything when regrassing the greens and kept the course intact. I would be amazed if the club decided now to "restore" the greens to Ross original design. The original drawings are not even close to the current greens. Having said that, I would not be surprised to see Gil Hanse "renovate" the bunkers and some greens (for additional pin placements) more in line with his style than Ross. I am pretty confident the club will not allow Hanse to "restore" the bunkers back
to Ross' notes from 1929 but time will tell. I thought Coore and Crenshaw did a great job of renovating all the bunkers at Seminole between 2017-2020. But obviously the members were not happy with the result and decided to go with a more modern and park
like approach to the bunkers with the neat and well maintained look. Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.
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Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
Jim,Could it have been Ernest Jones? That's who PD used to talk about shaping the greens there...
Hal, welcome...you have no idea what you are in for...
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Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.
Hal, you won't find any consensus here for terms such as restoration or renovation. ;D
Actually there is quite spirited discussion in various threads, for pages and pages on just that, you will come to enjoy. ;)
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Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.
Hal, you won't find any consensus here for terms such as restoration or renovation. ;D
Actually there is quite spirited discussion in various threads, for pages and pages on just that, you will come to enjoy. ;)
Thanks Jeff. Look forward to reading some of the threads.
All the best!
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Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
Jim,Could it have been Ernest Jones? That's who PD used to talk about shaping the greens there...
Hal, welcome...you have no idea what you are in for...
Thanks for the welcome Mike. Can't wait to see your new course in Vidalia, Georgia this spring. Great area!
I have talked with Pete Dye about Ernest Jones and he may have been correct. As you know, Pete was a member of
Seminole and being a noted Architect he probably had considerable knowledge about the history of Seminole.
Again, all I know from my 32 years at Seminole is that the current greens and greenside bunkers are not even
close to Donald Ross original drawings and notes. Hey, Dick Wilson is one of my favorite golf course architects
of all time so there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Donald Ross routing and Dick Wilson green complexes.
Thats like the best of both worlds and has made Seminole currently the great golf course that it is. The Golf Digest
video of every hole at Seminole narrated by Nathaniel Crosby is very accurate throughout. He mentions frequently
the renovation work performed by Dick Wilson and the renovation work on the bunkers performed by Coore and
Crenshaw.
Cheers!
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So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?
Mark,
I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole.
Let me venture a guess...new "leadership" was installed about 10 years ago?
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So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?
Mark,
I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole.
Let me venture a guess...new "leadership" was installed about 10 years ago?
Correct.
-
Here are the original Ross green plans from the tufts archives.
OB002281 - Sketch (https://tuftsarchives.catalogaccess.com/objects/244903)
-
Here are the original Ross green plans from the tufts archives.
OB002281 - Sketch (https://tuftsarchives.catalogaccess.com/objects/244903)
Rich,
Awesome! Thank you for posting this! These are exactly the original drawings and plans from Donald Ross! It does
not means the greens were built in 1929 to his exact specifications but it does show that the drawings are not even
remotely close to the existing greens and bunkering at Seminole. Thanks again for the discussion.
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
Mark,
I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich. But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings. At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole. Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
Mark,
I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich. But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings. At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole. Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.
—-
I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.
My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.
The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May).
The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.
The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.
I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
Mark,
I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich. But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings. At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole. Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.
—-
I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet.
...again we only have pieces of information.
Think about that...
...does it make any sense, at all?
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
Mark,
I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich. But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings. At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole. Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.
—-
I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.
My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.
The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May).
The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.
The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.
I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.
Conner,
You are correct on all your points. These are some of the same points I have been discussing. About five years ago Seminole
got a new green chairman and the maintenance meld as many call it changed quite a bit. The course has moved in a period of
very high maintenance in every aspect including the sand dunes. Accordingly, the maintenance budget has increased dramatically.
Today Seminole looks more like Jupiter Hills than the previous years of Seminole with its unkept natural dunes and ragged edged
bunkers in line with a links style course. The membership has changed quite a bit with not nearly as many low handicap members as in years past. But think of the ripple effect from raising the entire bottom of the golf course 2 feet or 4 feet. All the bunkers have to be renovated, irrigation has to be replaced from a brand-new system installed only 6 years ago, new grassing, and on and on. Accordingly, many of the members just don't understand the need. It's like one member of Seminole is famously quoted as saying when hearing another member complain---he said to the complaining member "it must have been ok when you joined---or you wouldn't have joined the club". Truer words have never been spoken. LOL!
-
Hal,
Great point about the drawings. They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn. Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc. Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.
Mark,
I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich. But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings. At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole. Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.
—-
I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.
My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.
The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May).
The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.
The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.
I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.
Conner,
You are correct on all your points. These are some of the same points I have been discussing. About five years ago Seminole
got a new green chairman and the maintenance meld as many call it changed quite a bit. The course has moved in a period of
very high maintenance in every aspect including the sand dunes. Accordingly, the maintenance budget has increased dramatically.
Today Seminole looks more like Jupiter Hills than the previous years of Seminole with its unkept natural dunes and ragged edged
bunkers in line with a links style course. The membership has changed quite a bit with not nearly as many low handicap members as in years past. But think of the ripple effect from raising the entire bottom of the golf course 2 feet or 4 feet. All the bunkers have to be renovated, irrigation has to be replaced from a brand-new system installed only 6 years ago, new grassing, and on and on. Accordingly, many of the members just don't understand the need. It's like one member of Seminole is famously quoted as saying when hearing another member complain---he said to the complaining member "it must have been ok when you joined---or you wouldn't have joined the club". Truer words have never been spoken. LOL!
To your point highlighted above (from a friend):
The other story relates to a friend of mine from Tulsa, OK who joined Seminole 30 years ago.
In the first few days that he was a member, an old member approached him and said:
"I understand that you're a new member. Why did you join Seminole ?"
My friend went on to list the reasons. The old member then replied:
"So you joined Seminole because you loved everything about it, just the way it is.
Please make sure that you preserve "The" Seminole that you wanted to join and please don't make any attempts to change it."
Too often today, new members want to change the club just a few years into their membership.