Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: David_Tepper on November 16, 2024, 05:59:55 PM
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The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways
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The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways)
Issuing a welfare call for Sean & Dai...this is too much for late on a Saturday evening to process...
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Do the animals get a vote?
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The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways)
Why do Clubs self inflict so much damage upon themselves in considering removing what is so special and unique?
Brora is a great fun course remodelled by one of the very best, but what is really unique especially to overseas visitors ($$$) is the rustic charm and tighly ruminated fairways and rough. It elevates the experience, giving visitors something to think about (for both future sustainability, and historic reference) and enjoy out of the norm.
My fear would be if they remove this unique aspect and see a decline in the agronomy too.
Then a refreshed Struie, the permission on Coul Links being passed (I hope it is) and overseas visitors instead of staying to play Brora will simply by-pass it for more flashy notable challenges.
Put it this way, if Brora vote to remove them, if I was at supposedly struggling nearby Golspie I'd invite the animals there ASAP!
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I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.
Ciao
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I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.
Ciao
I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)
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The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways)
Why do Clubs self inflict so much damage upon themselves in considering removing what is so special and unique?
Brora is a great fun course remodelled by one of the very best, but what is really unique especially to overseas visitors ($$$) is the rustic charm and tighly ruminated fairways and rough. It elevates the experience, giving visitors something to think about (for both future sustainability, and historic reference) and enjoy out of the norm.
My fear would be if they remove this unique aspect and see a decline in the agronomy too.
Then a refreshed Struie, the permission on Coul Links being passed (I hope it is) and overseas visitors instead of staying to play Brora will simply by-pass it for more flashy notable challenges.
Put it this way, if Brora vote to remove them, if I was at supposedly struggling nearby Golspie I'd invite the animals there ASAP!
Yikes!
As Queen Victorian would have said … “We are not amused”.
Black arm band time.
Atb
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I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53628226355_99af6a91c4.jpg)
Maybe move the Brora sheep and cattle to Coul? Might help get a few enviromental folks to change their stance on the proposed course at Coul (breath not being held though).
atb
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I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.
Ciao
I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)
Another Coo logo? The damn thing is as popular as wind turbines in Scotland.
Ciao
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Yes, there's nothing better than trying to extract your Pro V from a freshly laid cow pat. ::)
Do people really go to Brora to see cows or sheep or is it just something that they remember afterwards ? Surely they go there for the quality of the golf ? Will it be a worse course with no livestock ? I'm also not sure that the livestock help with the agronomy aspects but what they obviously do is help retain the open aspect of the course. Take the animals off the course and I suspect that through the green will improve condition wise but that the deep rough will become just that, deep rough. I'm not sure that will make the course worse or put off visitors.
Niall
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Yes, there's nothing better than trying to extract your Pro V from a freshly laid cow pat. ::)
Do people really go to Brora to see cows or sheep or is it just something that they remember afterwards ? Surely they go there for the quality of the golf ? Will it be a worse course with no livestock ? I'm also not sure that the livestock help with the agronomy aspects but what they obviously do is help retain the open aspect of the course. Take the animals off the course and I suspect that through the green will improve condition wise but that the deep rough will become just that, deep rough. I'm not sure that will make the course worse or put off visitors.
Niall
Well educated Scottish Golf Historian professes ambivalence for "Deep Rough" on classic links golf courses, The Good Doctor is rolling in his grave!
;D
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Why must all courses seek the same look and conditioning. In other areas having a 'point of difference' is seen as a distinct advantage, creating your own story.
After an 18 year gap I've made the pilgrimage the last two years and it would put me off revisiting.
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Time to put some speculation to bed. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.
The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.
The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.
So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.
I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.
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Pennard boasted a similar menagerie and as I recall the motivation to clear the bovines was that the proper fertilizer or other applications would not be healthy for the animals.So maybe removing the animals allows for more flexibility for turf management at Brora?
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Open kimono time. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.
The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.
The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.
So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.
I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.
Ben,
We loved Brora and thought the turf including the rough and greens to be excellent, and more importantly, consistent with the nature of the course. I appreciate you asking the question. My follow up for you or another turf expert is what are they looking to accomplish in terms of conditioning if they say the rough/fairway meld will not change?
It is of course for the members to decide. I do hope that they are thinking about potential unintended consequences.
Thanks.
Ira
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"Where men are men, and the sheep ... are afraid."
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Open kimono time. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.
The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.
The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.
So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.
I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.
Ben,
We loved Brora and thought the turf including the rough and greens to be excellent, and more importantly, consistent with the nature of the course. I appreciate you asking the question. My follow up for you or another turf expert is what are they looking to accomplish in terms of conditioning if they say the rough/fairway meld will not change?
It is of course for the members to decide. I do hope that they are thinking about potential unintended consequences.
Thanks.
Ira
Ira,
I think a significant amount of time is spent by the crew to remove excrement. I also think the crew anticipates an improvement of playing conditions in the greens surrounds after fence removal.
The quiet part no one is saying out loud is that Brora has owned the land in which their golf course sits since 2021. Ask yourself, if you had the choice, whether you would want livestock animals on your golf course. I suspect most course managers would say no. I feel it’s important to defer to a good course manager on their home turf in most cases, pun intended.
As to whether the absence of livestock will curtail visitor revenue, I have no idea. I think there’s evidence to say no. Maybe we should ask Tom if his 7 rating was due to the sheep. ;D
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It should also be mentioned that the livestock at times did damage to the course, such a collapsing the walls of bunkers and the banks of the 2 burns that flow thru the course. When the ground was wet the livestock also left hoof prints in the turf.
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Why must all courses seek the same look and conditioning. In other areas having a 'point of difference' is seen as a distinct advantage, creating your own story.
After an 18 year gap I've made the pilgrimage the last two years and it would put me off revisiting.
Really? You won’t play Brora without livestock on the course?
I think it’s important to differentiate between cows and sheep. Cows ain’t good for golf. So far as I know the only positive is rough munching. The damage they do is not worth the hassle if sheep can remain. Sheep are excellent for golf. Same grass eating benefits as cows, much better fertiliser, no damage to the course and the nibbling height is a perfect fairway height. Plus the wonderful blurred fairway lines can remain. Practically every course I know which allows only sheep has some of the best quality turf going. IMO removing sheep would be a mistake. People think they can easily replicate the benefits of sheep with inputs and good rough management. I think this is true in theory with the exception of the blurred fairway lines. In practice, however, I am less convinced.
Ciao
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Exactly how many cows are there?
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I think it’s important to differentiate between cows and sheep. Cows ain’t good for golf. So far as I know the only positive is rough munching. The damage they do is not worth the hassle if sheep can remain. Sheep are excellent for golf. Same grass eating benefits as cows, much better fertiliser, no damage to the course and the nibbling height is a perfect fairway height. Plus the wonderful blurred fairway lines can remain. Practically every course I know which allows only sheep has some of the best quality turf going. IMO removing sheep would be a mistake. People think they can easily replicate the benefits of sheep with inputs and good rough management. I think this is true in theory with the exception of the blurred fairway lines. In practice, however, I am less convinced.
Ciao
Nicely summarised.
While sheep do most of the work the cattle, especially the longhorn variety, are more akin to poster boys and look cute in photos etc. In modern social media, TV, camera-phone society poster boys/girls and looking cute seems to matter quite a bit and is an excellent source of free publicity. Free publicity being no bad thing for a small golf club in a very rural part of the World who claim to need visitor money to survive (remember Brora’s call for financial support around the time of Covid?).
It would be a sad day for golf, a game that started on seaside links terrain grazed by animals, and I suggest a sad day Brora GC too, if they were to remove the grazing animals from the course.
Atb
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So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...
Niall
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So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...
Niall
Niall,
To what level are you aware of the sequence of events from March 2020 onward at Brora? The global call for support was swift and aggressive. It seems that support was so large that the club turned from dire straights rather quickly.
https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/ (https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/)
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Doesn't the accumulation of sheep and cow manure (including urine) over decades and decade negatively impact the links properties of the turf? Perhaps the changes to the turf are very gradual, minuscule and probably not noticed, but I'm sure there must be some changes in the turf characteristics as well as the soil composition. From an environmental and ecological point-of-view, is it better that cows and sheep are removed?
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As a junior overseas member of a nearby club for seven seasons, the last four a bit frustrating, I remain deferential to the local members who feel the impact of operating decisions much more directly. These good folks enjoy the full benefits over the entire year at essentially similar costs, so, though somewhat grudgingly, I've come to accept decisions which accrue to their benefit even at the expense of my own.
Brora is special. I've played the course more than a dozen times over the years and always look forward to returning. The animals have never bothered me in the least, though stepping over the electric wire strands is becoming more annoying and difficult. I particularly like the juxtaposition to its busier, more regulated, highly-acclaimed neighbor. Brora as well as Golspie, without sacrificing the core golf experience, feel more relaxed, with no feint of pretension, and appreciative of my visits.
Undoubtedly, a small number will be put-off if the grazing animals are moved from the property. I don't see the cows or the sheep to be integral to the golfing experience. I know that it is dangerous to generalize the experience gained from 60+ years of maintaining my residential landscape to 100+ acres of golfing turf, but I've seen the negative effects rabbits can have eating and releasing their waste in small areas. There is a reason farmers rotate their livestock and considerable anecdotal evidence of large herds of wildlife devastating areas before moving on to do the same elsewhere.
I suspect that removing the animals will not have a negative financial impact on the club and could very well contribute to improved playing conditions. Southerndown in Wales is the only course I can think of whose livestock added to the playing experience.
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This is more about how the club acquired the land.
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/brora-golf-club-secures-historic-purchase-of-golf-course/ (https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/brora-golf-club-secures-historic-purchase-of-golf-course/)0
ie after the Covid induced panic.
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So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...
Niall
Niall,
To what level are you aware of the sequence of events from March 2020 onward at Brora? The global call for support was swift and aggressive. It seems that support was so large that the club turned from dire straights rather quickly.
https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/ (https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/)
Ben
You are correct to detect a degree of cynicism in my post and I suspect you correctly surmised I did not know of the exact timings of events at Brora when I posted, however, from the articles that you and Tony have provided links to I note the club went from supposedly a position of being about to fold to buying the course in under 12 months. And that's while the effects of the pandemic was still playing out. I have to say my cynicism remains but good luck to them.
As for the hundreds of other clubs in Scotland that weren't as well off as Brora to start with but who still managed to get through COVID without the benefit of a world wide fundraising campaign, hats off to them.
Niall
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So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...
Niall
Niall,
To what level are you aware of the sequence of events from March 2020 onward at Brora? The global call for support was swift and aggressive. It seems that support was so large that the club turned from dire straights rather quickly.
https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/ (https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/)
Ben
You are correct to detect a degree of cynicism in my post and I suspect you correctly surmised I did not know of the exact timings of events at Brora when I posted, however, from the articles that you and Tony have provided links to I note the club went from supposedly a position of being about to fold to buying the course in under 12 months. And that's while the effects of the pandemic was still playing out. I have to say my cynicism remains but good luck to them.
As for the hundreds of other clubs in Scotland that weren't as well off as Brora to start with but who still managed to get through COVID without the benefit of a world wide fundraising campaign, hats off to them.
Niall
Niall,
It’s a banner moment around here when anyone changes a position or their skepticism wanes. That’s fine. I just wanted to provide you with a proper timeline.
As for those other clubs, I’m not sure global support for places like Brora is a reason to cast a withering glance northward. Let’s not go “tall poppy” on Brora.
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I’ll start with a question: How many of you who love Brora, have regularly been the first player out (as I have), and caught up the greenstaff to see what they have to do before the main body of golfers come through later that day...
I've been playing Brora for around 35 years, and I've been a member for several years now, all be it a country member so I'm not as up to speed as some and wasn’t able to vote on the matter. Many years ago, I recall playing the course and no matter where your ball was, rough or fairway, there was a chance it would be nestling up against one of the local sheep's calling cards. Suitable local rules were in play regarding taking relief. Interestingly, I don’t recall there being many cows back then?
However these days, with the higher green fees, and what feels like a lot more visitors, when I play you hardly see any excrement from sheep or cattle... AND THAT’S BECAUSE the greenstaff who are out early when I often am, are literally shoveling it off the fairways to keep things clear for the players coming through later. It doesnt exactly look a fun job and having spoken to a few of them it clearly isnt...
So I understand why the staff and those that play regular, may prefer it without the livestock.
Additionally, the greenstaff out early will often be repairing the damage the cattle have made to various cut grass areas and edges of bunkers, as well as the erosion along the edges of the 2 burns that run across the course that either need repairing, or essentially mean the width of the water hazard increases. Again I suspect much of this work goes un-noticed by later visitors.
Therefore, I wasn’t too surprised when I received an email a few days ago confirming that the voting members (I cant vote as a country member) had passed the resolution to seek permission to have the cattle removed. Essentially it appears to mean applying to the government to have crofting rights removed as well as agreeing compensation for those that have those rights, so probably not an overnight job!
I also understand that in the early 2000s the membership voted to do similar, but it was never followed through for some reason…
The sheep and electric fences have always been there for me, and have certainly been part of the character, and spirit of place if you like, of a course I love. But in recent years, playing early and seeing what needs to be done, I suspect I would have voted as the other members did if I could have. It will be a shame to see some of the sheep go, but I wont miss the cows!
Having said all that, there can be a place for livestock, certainly sheep, on a course. I have had several discussions with the greenstaff at my other course Hollinwell, a heathland course, about the benefits of sheep. We have them away from the playing surface and they do a great job helping the heather and heathland habitat to be maintained. We have discussed bringing the sheep closer to the main playing areas, and the few times we have, they have proven excellent at rough management, but I suspect most members wouldnt go for it on a more permanent basis.
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Exactly how many cows are there?
I think the number of coos on the course has increased of the last few years. I e seen as many as 15-20 out there at times.
To echo some of James’ comments, I walked up to the 11th tee earlier this year and there was a large cow patty sitting right in the middle of the white tees and there were 3 coos sitting up there on the tee box.
They’re very photogenic, but I can believe that the amount of work and damage is with that.
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As an aside it becomes more difficult for the golf-hating brigade and the enviro lobby to criticise golf courses if the courses have grazing animals on them.
Atb
PS - sheep apparently grazed TOC at StA until 1946
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The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
Put it this way, if Brora vote to remove them, if I was at supposedly struggling nearby Golspie I'd invite the animals there ASAP!
My conversations with members who have been playing Golspie for around sixty years have informed me that Golspie did have animals on the course until the late 1980s. At that time there was none of the long rough that borders some of the playing lanes. So Golspie was being played under the same conditions as Brora but decided to remove the animals.
I think James Boon's post about the amount of work required by the grounds crew to remove dung constitutes an example of "invisible" work that goes on behind the scenes that makes our experience more enjoyable. The animals may be quaint but they are not central to the experience and to expect them to be there is to my mind somewhat condescending. Marie Antoinette may or may not have said "Then let them eat cake" (some versions say brioche), but in our preference for the animals at Brora we are implying if not directly stating "Then let them shovel shit."
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock. The more I reflect on what makes Brora, Brora, I support James MacBeath and his team’s wish to have them removed. The membership voted and we will see what happens now.
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock. The more I reflect on what makes Brora, Brora, I support James MacBeath and his team’s wish to have them removed. The membership voted and we will see what happens now.
That’s the nub of it. The members voted and that is that. GB&I clubs continue to homogenize their courses.
Happy Thanksgiving
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
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Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Because they take pride in their work and a higher ranking is validation for that work.
Niall
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
Nor with me. It has never occurred to me that Brora needed better turf, or that there was anything lacking in the "playing experience". Indeed, the sheep were a point of difference and, for me, enhanced the experience.
It strikes me that two of the most enjoyable courses to play that I know, Brora and Kington both have sheep and both have excellent turf and playing conditions.
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Removing from a course the bigger, heavier beasties like cows (and at some places horses) is kinda understandable from a maintenance and even playing perspective as their size and weight does have (literally) and impact on playing surfaces, bunker edges etc. They can however, be fitted with electric collars which give them a wee pulse should they wish to stray into pre-defined areas.
Removing sheep is a different matter.
Over the years I’ve attempted to play as many sheep grazed courses as possible. Not one has been a disappointment, indeed quite the opposite. It’s also worth pointing out that TOC at St Andrews was sheep grazed until 1946. And even ANGC had sheep and cattle and turkeys roaming its grounds during WW2. Pebble Beach apparently had them in its earliest days too.
While some folks might not like something organically produced on the ground near their feet the benefits of sheep grazing providing there is no overgrazing are significant. For example, sheep produce the perfect height of cut (nibble) for fairways whilst not being keen on putting surfaces as the grass is cut too short for them to nibble conveniently.
As to other animals, kangaroos inhabit Aussie courses and goats are great for keeping scrub and brush at bay. Goats are even the club crest at Lahinch.
From a related aspect having sheep (and other grazing animals) plus things like bird boxes, bee hives, bug ‘hotels’ etc sends a significant and very visual environmental message and any environmental message golf sends to the outside world where golf-haters etc exist has to be be positive for the game.
Atb
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This thread is getting a bit bizarre. It would interest me how many people here got a vote on the matter, and what their position was. I’d like to be transparent, I received a vote and had I voted I would’ve voted to remove the livestock from the golf course due almost totally in part to two things. 1) that’s what the staff seemed to want and 2) the course manager’s input was very persuasive.
One point he made was that they had run tests and assured the membership the rough wouldn’t change. The second point is that he felt there were significant issues with getting the greens surrounds to play as firm and fast as he wanted with livestock on the course. On that second point, I agree. I noticed the same last summer.
But, in the end I abstained. Why? Because I live in Colorado and this isn’t my home club. I adore the course and sheep/coos aren’t the reason why. But it’s not up to me to tell a local member what they should or shouldn’t have to put up with on their home course.
Good golf trumps nostalgia and the case was properly made that the golf would benefit.
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Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Because they take pride in their work and a higher ranking is validation for that work.
Niall
I know that to be true from my last employment, but I always thought it was crappy way for turf folks to look at it. And it undoubtedly has been the source of vast sums of money being spent that often has little to with how a course actually plays for the kind of golfer, and golfers, I prefer.
But then I decided several decades ago that conditioning simply wasn't something I was willing to bitch about. Which puts me in a tiny minority of golfers where I play.
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Higher rankings equals the justification to charge higher green fees…and thus the merry go round starts for Brora.
Brora may well be the most notable course which “allows” grazing animals. Assuming the club is successful and the livestock is removed…which course takes over the number 1 spot?
Ciao
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I first played Brora on September 30, 2021 and it was an emotional experience. I don't know how to describe it but I was moved in a way completely different than what I experienced playing the Old Course for the first time in 2019 or even Royal Dornoch on that same trip to the Highlands in 2021. I came home with a membership application for Brora but ultimately joined Royal Dornoch, but I digress.
I have returned to the Highlands on two other occasions and made sure to experience Brora each trip. Over the past three years it has been a pleasure getting to know Brora's course manager, James MacBeath. We teed it up together earlier this year in Phoenix, AZ when he attended the GCSAA Conference and Show, and he joined me and my wife for our round at Brora during our Highlands trip in September this year.
I have listened for some time to James talk about the team and the laborious task of cleaning poo every single day to begin the course preparation procedures. I have listened to James talk about people making the journey to Brora and taking pictures of the sheep and the coos rather than pictures of the golf course. I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos.
But I also know if not for the sheep and coos I cannot say with certainty my original experience would have been as impactful. I truly felt that day not just transported physically miles away from the stresses of everyday life, but transported spiritually through time, and I am certain the sheep and coos played an important role in that experience.
I for one am conflicted, but whatever they decide I will forever play Brora when I am in the Highlands, whether or not the sheep and/or coos are present. But I secretly hope they are.
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Higher rankings equals the justification to charge higher green fees…and thus the merry go round starts for Brora.
Does it? Will it?
In the Golf Magazine Top-100 UK/Ireland Brora (63) ranks behind Western Gailes (45) but well ahead of Dumbarnie Links (93)...
...but charges a significantly lower visitor green fee vs. the other two (£100+).
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Higher rankings equals the justification to charge higher green fees…and thus the merry go round starts for Brora.
Does it? Will it?
In the Golf Magazine Top-100 UK/Ireland Brora (63) ranks behind Western Gailes (45) but well ahead of Dumbarnie Links (93)...
...but charges a significantly lower visitor green fee vs. the other two (
£100+).
The fee has risen sharply in recent years. I absolutely believe the fee will continue to rise well above inflation rates.
Ciao
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Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Because they take pride in their work and a higher ranking is validation for that work.
Niall
If they take pride in their work, the latter should take care of itself.
Conversely, hopefully chasing "rankings" isn't driving any of their decision making as it goes to "their work".
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Higher rankings equals the justification to charge higher green fees…and thus the merry go round starts for Brora.
Does it? Will it?
In the Golf Magazine Top-100 UK/Ireland Brora (63) ranks behind Western Gailes (45) but well ahead of Dumbarnie Links (93)...
...but charges a significantly lower visitor green fee vs. the other two (
£100+).
The fee has risen sharply in recent years. I absolutely believe the fee will continue to rise well above inflation rates.
But only if the "rankings" come?
Currently Nairn, Western Gailes and Dumbarnie all charge (a lot) more...sure seems like Brora has a clear path to raise the fee right now (rankings be damned).
I'm with Matthew, leave well enough alone.
I'm sure all 4 courses are excellent but only one has a unique differentiating characteristic that drives £-free-$ "word of mouth" advertising* on a world-wide basis -- damned if I'd mess with that.
[*which I'd bet is worth WAY more than going from #63 to #53 in the rankings]
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I believe the club has voted to remove the cattle. Among the reasons apparently cited by the course manager is that he has taken the course as far as he can sharing it with cattle; without them he can improve the turf, the playing experience, help the course “go up the rankings” and be judged as a golf course, not a field. I have played Brora for thirty years and none of those comments resonate.
It’s not just the cattle, it’s all the livestock.
Eactly how many "cattle" and other "livestock" are there?
Why would any employee at Brora care about or be motivated by it going "up in the rankings"?
Higher rankings equals the justification to charge higher green fees…and thus the merry go round starts for Brora.
Does it? Will it?
In the Golf Magazine Top-100 UK/Ireland Brora (63) ranks behind Western Gailes (45) but well ahead of Dumbarnie Links (93)...
...but charges a significantly lower visitor green fee vs. the other two (
£100+).
The fee has risen sharply in recent years. I absolutely believe the fee will continue to rise well above inflation rates.
But only if the "rankings" come?
Currently Nairn, Western Gailes and Dumbarnie all charge (a lot) more...sure seems like Brora has a clear path to raise the fee right now (rankings be damned).
I'm with Matthew, leave well enough alone.
I'm sure all 4 courses are excellent but only one has a unique differentiating characteristic that drives £-free-$ "word of mouth" advertising* on a world-wide basis -- damned if I'd mess with that.
[*which I'd bet is worth WAY more than going from #63 to #53 in the rankings]
Rankings help justify green fees. So yes, if Brora suddenly was ranked 10 in GB&I, it would charge more than if ranked 75.
I too think it’s a mistake to remove the sheep, but think it’s a good idea to remove the cattle. Only because practically every sheep grazed course I know has high quality fairways and rough. If done well, the transition from fairways to rough is seamless. But, the members voted and that’s that. Brora is only following the trend to homogenize courses so the decision is not surprising.
Ciao
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I first played Brora on September 30, 2021 and it was an emotional experience. I don't know how to describe it but I was moved in a way completely different than what I experienced playing the Old Course for the first time in 2019 or even Royal Dornoch on that same trip to the Highlands in 2021. I came home with a membership application for Brora but ultimately joined Royal Dornoch, but I digress.
I have returned to the Highlands on two other occasions and made sure to experience Brora each trip. Over the past three years it has been a pleasure getting to know Brora's course manager, James MacBeath. We teed it up together earlier this year in Phoenix, AZ when he attended the GCSAA Conference and Show, and he joined me and my wife for our round at Brora during our Highlands trip in September this year.
I have listened for some time to James talk about the team and the laborious task of cleaning poo every single day to begin the course preparation procedures. I have listened to James talk about people making the journey to Brora and taking pictures of the sheep and the coos rather than pictures of the golf course. I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos.
But I also know if not for the sheep and coos I cannot say with certainty my original experience would have been as impactful. I truly felt that day not just transported physically miles away from the stresses of everyday life, but transported spiritually through time, and I am certain the sheep and coos played an important role in that experience.
I for one am conflicted, but whatever they decide I will forever play Brora when I am in the Highlands, whether or not the sheep and/or coos are present. But I secretly hope they are.
Thanks for that balance, and it is of course the members' decision (although from another post the number of members actually voting seems very small indeed, less than 100).
But the key factor here seems to be an ambitious Course Manger seeking "immaculate conditions" i.e. the opposite of what some on here and many visitors laud at Brora.
I do not criticise his ambition nor professional desire to produce the best surface he can, but it seems odd to me for him to seek inputs and learning at the GCSAA Conference in the US, when he could/should actually be exporting his knowledge of naturalised and environmental stewardship (as has been the case at Brora for over a century) to the US.
Brambles is leading the way stateside, and Kingarroch in Scotland too.
There are many other historic examples over here.
The information flow and desire to mimic what is overseas, seems the wrong way round.
IMHO other courses can learn from Brora and other sheep grazed courses, especially relevant to rough management as Sean says.
N.B. I do sympathise with the Cow-pat issue, but I don't believe the membership were offered options of either:
a) keep the sheep, but lose the cows
or
b) keep the cows in non-playing areas
Perhaps there are not sufficiently strong people on the Green/Main Committee, who understand what is unique and needs to be protected, to resist such moves (certainly such a dramatic change, rather than incremental)
But perhaps the constituents of such committees have changed a lot since COVID and we know there has been a large in-bound membership at Brora (which of course helped its survival and now land ownership).
Things change, but not always for the better (time will tell on this one).
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Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone? I detect a sentiment from some that they are a magical creature that if removed will adversely impact the experience. I don’t understand the attachment and the argument that they have always been there doesn’t sway me.
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Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone? I detect a sentiment from some that they are a magical creature that if removed will adversely impact the experience. I don’t understand the attachment and the argument that they have always been there doesn’t sway me.
I played Brora in August. I thought it was spectacular and it had nothing to do with the livestock. Yes, the livestock was a curious and interesting touch, but it certainly was not the reason why I loved the experience. The member/caddie for one of the guys in the foursome mentioned to us why the membership was hoping to remove the livestock and it made perfect sense to me. I think the course will only get better as a result, particularly the ability to remove the electric fences around the greens. I absolutely will make the journey to Brora again in the future (hopefully before too long). The highland cattle and sheep are a fun quirk, but not seeing them on the course will in no way impact how I feel about playing Brora.
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...I received a vote and had I voted I would’ve voted to remove the livestock from the golf course due almost totally in part to two things. 1) that’s what the staff seemed to want and 2) the course manager’s input was very persuasive.
Begs the question of who sets policy?
But, in the end I abstained.
Depending on how the bylaws are written a no-vote (abstention) could constitute a NO vote.
Good golf trumps nostalgia and the case was properly made that the golf would benefit.
Denuding a club of characteristics that make-up/constitute "nostalgia" is a very slippery slope... ("nostalgia" = culture & history)
Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone?
On the margin, absolutely.
Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present?
Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.
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...I received a vote and had I voted I would’ve voted to remove the livestock from the golf course due almost totally in part to two things. 1) that’s what the staff seemed to want and 2) the course manager’s input was very persuasive.
Begs the question of who sets policy?
But, in the end I abstained.
Depending on how the bylaws are written a no-vote (abstention) could constitute a NO vote.
Good golf trumps nostalgia and the case was properly made that the golf would benefit.
Denuding a club of characteristics that make-up/constitute "nostalgia" is a very slippery slope... ("nostalgia" = culture & history)
Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone?
On the margin, absolutely.
Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present?
Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.
I purposely differentiated the cows from the sheep. For all those that are fans of Brora please chime in if you will pass going forward when and if they are removed.
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I already stated that I wouldn’t avoid Brora sans livestock. I stopped by a few years ago after a long break. Lovely course.
Ciao
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Received an insightful comment on social media from a recent player, adding insight to the legalities of the process:
"I played with a board member the other day and found out that even after the purchase, which was only L70,000 or something, good on the land owners, the crofts retain rights to croft the land. The issue was surrounding maintenance and usage. I believe each croft had rights to 5 cows or 20 sheep. The croft's started to take the piss and the herd numbers swelled. This cost them hugely in maintenance, especially the daily shit shoveling. They tried to sort it out with the crofts to reduce the numbers but to no avail. It went to a local council tribunal and because the contract was broken by the crofts, the council could only really remove their rights."
<A croft is apparently a "small, rented farm.">
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It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.
But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.
I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.
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It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.
But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.
I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.
It also amazes me how adept some Boards/Committees are at presenting members with fait a complis resolutions without pre-consultation and genuine debate (no knowledge of if this is the case here, but have experience elsewhere that beggars belief)
If they want to get a certain answer then asking the right closed question (without any alternatives or meaningful debate) is the way to get it... ::)
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[size=0px]Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? [/size][/color][/size][size=0px]Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.
Chris
Let me put this to you. The head greenkeeper and it seems the members, thinks that the course will be better without animals grazing. If that turns out to be correct it is possible and indeed likely that they will get more visitors (not that that is necessarily the primary concern of the members, they just want a better course presumably) because people want to play better courses irrespective of whether they have sheep roaming about. Surely that's a win/win for the members as well as the greenkeeper ?
Niall
[/size]
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If this decision ends up being the wrong one, is there anything stopping them from reversing it later and bringing some/all of the livestock back?
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[size=0px]Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? [/size]Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.
Chris
Let me put this to you. The head greenkeeper and it seems the members, thinks that the course will be better without animals grazing. If that turns out to be correct it is possible and indeed likely that they will get more visitors (not that that is necessarily the primary concern of the members, they just want a better course presumably) because people want to play better courses irrespective of whether they have sheep roaming about. Surely that's a win/win for the members as well as the greenkeeper ?
Niall
Niall, I disagree.
There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed.
It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.
But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.
I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.
It also amazes me how adept some Boards/Committees are at presenting members with fait a complis resolutions without pre-consultation and genuine debate (no knowledge of if this is the case here, but have experience elsewhere that beggars belief)
If they want to get a certain answer then asking the right closed question (without any alternatives or meaningful debate) is the way to get it... ::)
Good points Simon. I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for change in this case really seems to be the staff. No bueno...
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Good points Simon. I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for for change in this case really seems to be the staff. No bueno...
Why? That James and his team are tired of shoveling crap every morning is more than enough reason for me to support. But there are other reasons too. Not that anyone here save for a couple of posters seems to care.
For a website that collectively purports to appreciate what turf professionals do, the desire to have cheeky instagram pics with sheep in them sure seems to be driving some weird opinions.
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Niall, I disagree.
There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed.
Chris
I agree there's no pent-up demand. No-one I know is waiting for the livestock to be removed before they play the course. My point however is that if the course improves, gets a better ranking then additional demand will be created.
Niall
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Aside from the Covid years I have been fortunate enough to spend 5 to 7 weeks a year in the Highlands for the past 20+years. I have probably played Brora 2 or 3 times a year when I have been there.
For me the "charm" and novelty of seeing sheep and cattle on the course the course wore off long time ago. If anything I will likely play the course more often when they are gone.
Not too long ago there was a thread here about Brora. I commented that, given the chance, the Brora members would prefer to see the livestock removed from their course. Looks like I was right about that. ;)
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,73114.msg1754276.html#msg1754276
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Good points Simon. I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for for change in this case really seems to be the staff. No bueno...
Why? That James and his team are tired of shoveling crap every morning is more than enough reason for me to support. But there are other reasons too. Not that anyone here save for a couple of posters seems to care.
Presumably the staff understood the expectations of the job, when they accepted.
Reminds me of a club I know where the members are hankering to switch to bermuda but the (newish) super is a bent guy.
Told a member I know "you switch to bermuda you're gonna lose Joe"...
...member said "but in the interview process he said he would execute on and maintain whatever the members want" -- they always do.
For a website that collectively purports to appreciate what turf professionals do, the desire to have cheeky instagram pics with sheep in them sure seems to be driving some weird opinions.
For me preserving the culture & history of unique/iconic clubs supersedes all -- guarantee you there's another highly qualified "turf professional" out there eager to have the job as is.
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Niall, I disagree.
There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed.
Chris
I agree there's no pent-up demand. No-one I know is waiting for the livestock to be removed before they play the course. My point however is that if the course improves, gets a better ranking then additional demand will be created.
Niall
I disagree.
IMO , marginally better turf conditions (if they even improve at all) won't (shouldn't) result in any sort of material move in the "rankings".
I'm curious, what are your expectations?
Brora currently ranks #63 in the UK/IRL list published by Golf Magazine -- if they get rid of the livestock how big of a "rankings" jump are you predicting? Will Brora jump to #25 in front of Kingsbarns?
Again, was Brora to move up 10 spots (unlikely) or even 20 spots (highly unlikely) as a result of removing the livestock -- I will bet on a net/net basis "demand" will drop as a result of denuding the Club of the culture/history that made it unique.
Has the vote been tallied yet?
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Chris,
You seem to be of the mind that what makes Brora most unique is the livestock. I couldn’t disagree more. There’s distinct architecture and a worthy place as clearly one of Braid’s best to consider. Sheep don’t make Brora.
I also think it’s a bad argument to compare livestock presence to an American club’s Bermuda vs bent conundrum. They're not even comparable.
Also, yes, vote is over. The club voted to remove the livestock.
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Chris,
You seem to be of the mind that what makes Brora most unique is the livestock. I couldn’t disagree more. There’s distinct architecture and a worthy place as clearly one of Braid’s best to consider. Sheep don’t make Brora.
Presumably good architecture is prevalent at all the top "ranked" courses/clubs in Scotland -- that said, the livestock undeniably sets Brora apart from the rest of the herd, period.
(note: for every 1 of you who identifies the course with Braid, there are 100's who know it for the livestock -- architecture wonks don't pay the bills)
I also think it’s a bad argument to compare livestock presence to an American club’s Bermuda vs bent conundrum. They're not even comparable.
You've missed the point. It isn't about livestock or grass-type, but rather who is driving the bus -- the staff or the members?
Also, yes, vote is over. The club voted to remove the livestock.
That's a crying shame... :-[
OK, let' fire up the "rankings" tracker (currently #63) and see whether or not (i) the club moves up, and (ii) if so does it allow the club to jack-up the green fee tariffs (£160 in 2025) by 100% or more -- awesome.
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Jeez I hate multi-coloured posts even more so when there is a bunch of cut-n-paste involved.
Atb
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Chris,
I care not one whit about rankings and neither do a number of the members I’ve spoken with via email and text. What we all seem to agree on is 1) we want the rough to remain as is and 2) we want James and his team to be able to devote more time to course care and not repairing the walls of bunkers and burns and shoveling dung.
Not sure what else to say.
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I first played Brora on September 30, 2021 and it was an emotional experience. I don't know how to describe it but I was moved in a way completely different than what I experienced playing the Old Course for the first time in 2019 or even Royal Dornoch on that same trip to the Highlands in 2021. I came home with a membership application for Brora but ultimately joined Royal Dornoch, but I digress.
I have returned to the Highlands on two other occasions and made sure to experience Brora each trip. Over the past three years it has been a pleasure getting to know Brora's course manager, James MacBeath. We teed it up together earlier this year in Phoenix, AZ when he attended the GCSAA Conference and Show, and he joined me and my wife for our round at Brora during our Highlands trip in September this year.
I have listened for some time to James talk about the team and the laborious task of cleaning poo every single day to begin the course preparation procedures. I have listened to James talk about people making the journey to Brora and taking pictures of the sheep and the coos rather than pictures of the golf course. I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos.
But I also know if not for the sheep and coos I cannot say with certainty my original experience would have been as impactful. I truly felt that day not just transported physically miles away from the stresses of everyday life, but transported spiritually through time, and I am certain the sheep and coos played an important role in that experience.
I for one am conflicted, but whatever they decide I will forever play Brora when I am in the Highlands, whether or not the sheep and/or coos are present. But I secretly hope they are.
Thanks for that balance, and it is of course the members' decision (although from another post the number of members actually voting seems very small indeed, less than 100).
But the key factor here seems to be an ambitious Course Manger seeking "immaculate conditions" i.e. the opposite of what some on here and many visitors laud at Brora.
I do not criticise his ambition nor professional desire to produce the best surface he can, but it seems odd to me for him to seek inputs and learning at the GCSAA Conference in the US, when he could/should actually be exporting his knowledge of naturalised and environmental stewardship (as has been the case at Brora for over a century) to the US.
Brambles is leading the way stateside, and Kingarroch in Scotland too.
There are many other historic examples over here.
The information flow and desire to mimic what is overseas, seems the wrong way round.
IMHO other courses can learn from Brora and other sheep grazed courses, especially relevant to rough management as Sean says.
N.B. I do sympathise with the Cow-pat issue, but I don't believe the membership were offered options of either:
a) keep the sheep, but lose the cows
or
b) keep the cows in non-playing areas
Perhaps there are not sufficiently strong people on the Green/Main Committee, who understand what is unique and needs to be protected, to resist such moves (certainly such a dramatic change, rather than incremental)
But perhaps the constituents of such committees have changed a lot since COVID and we know there has been a large in-bound membership at Brora (which of course helped its survival and now land ownership).
Things change, but not always for the better (time will tell on this one).
Simon,
I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right. On the contrary, James is a highly experienced links course manager and he understands better than anyone what is best for the golf course at Brora within a sustainable framework and the environment. The fact he elected to attend a golf course management conference in the U.S. only means he is willing to learn. I too have attended BIGGA's conference in the U.K. on two occasions for the same reason, to learn. There is much information sharing that takes place at these events that one can find helpful and resourceful for their golf course, sometimes you find helpful information in the least likely of places.
Having read through many of the other responses since my last reply, I think I have yet to play the golf course enough times to have reached the point where the livestock becomes novelty. But I think like David, I too would reach that point sometime in the near future. I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday.
Cheers,
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"I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos."...
..."I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right."
Thanks Matt,
Appreciate the sentiment, but I was reading your words (above), literally, and not by implication.
I have only heard positive words about the current (dare I say "immaculate") state of both the agronomy and playing surfaces at Brora which the clearly very capable James and his team produce.
This praise is especially the case for the differentiated livestock-managed rough "through the green", which many laud as far better than unvarying machine cut rough. I have some doubt that its special characteristics can be replicated mechanically across the entire course without signifciant inputs (physical, machine, fuel, man-hours, and potentially chemical?) especially in the longer-term.
If anyone as a successful example across a whole golf course in this, without livestock or increased resources, let's hear it.
The underlying nub here is, there are seemingly issues about the relationship breaking down between the Club and those neighbours with historic with grazing rights, post the club's ownership, and the Cow-dung issue has allegedly worsened (as their numbers have apparently grown beyond their mutual agreement).
The removal of all livestock is a pretty blunt instrument, especially when the quality of all playing surfaces is not in question (infact these are lauded by visitors) I had hoped it was really a negotiating tactic by the Board/Committee, but seemingly not.
I am not at all sure it was great PR (locally & to the wider world) either, but what is done is done.
"I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday."
Geofencing collars may be closer to commercial usage than many think...perhaps a trial of these on the sheep might have been useful before throwing them out with the Cow-dung! These might be useful to manage Coos away from playing corridors too?
Cheers
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Worth a watch particularly for those who haven’t had the pleasure of a visit to Brora nor experienced Highland cattle or just wish for a reminder of how delightful the Brora experience complete with coooos is -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98)
Atb
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Worth a watch particularly for those who haven’t had the pleasure of a visit to Brora nor experienced Highland cattle or just wish for a reminder of how delightful the Brora experience complete with coooos is -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98)
Atb
Thank you. Awesome.
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"I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos."...
..."I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right."
Thanks Matt,
Appreciate the sentiment, but I was reading your words (above), literally, and not by implication.
I have only heard positive words about the current (dare I say "immaculate") state of both the agronomy and playing surfaces at Brora which the clearly very capable James and his team produce.
This praise is especially the case for the differentiated livestock-managed rough "through the green", which many laud as far better than unvarying machine cut rough. I have some doubt that its special characteristics can be replicated mechanically across the entire course without signifciant inputs (physical, machine, fuel, man-hours, and potentially chemical?) especially in the longer-term.
If anyone as a successful example across a whole golf course in this, without livestock or increased resources, let's hear it.
The underlying nub here is, there are seemingly issues about the relationship breaking down between the Club and those neighbours with historic with grazing rights, post the club's ownership, and the Cow-dung issue has allegedly worsened (as their numbers have apparently grown beyond their mutual agreement).
The removal of all livestock is a pretty blunt instrument, especially when the quality of all playing surfaces is not in question (infact these are lauded by visitors) I had hoped it was really a negotiating tactic by the Board/Committee, but seemingly not.
I am not at all sure it was great PR (locally & to the wider world) either, but what is done is done.
"I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday."
Geofencing collars may be closer to commercial usage than many think...perhaps a trial of these on the sheep might have been useful before throwing them out with the Cow-dung! These might be useful to manage Coos away from playing corridors too?
Cheers
A succinct and on-point recap, good onya mate.
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I question the notion that the greens staff are/were the ones driving the change to remove the livestock from the course. It would not surprise me at all if a sizable number of club members have been wanting to do this for many years.
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I question the notion that the greens staff are/were the ones driving the change to remove the livestock from the course. It would not surprise me at all if a sizable number of club members have been wanting to do this for many years.
Agreed
(Only time will tell if they were correct)
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I question the notion that the greens staff are/were the ones driving the change to remove the livestock from the course.
Specifically, what have you heard/seen that makes you think this?
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Chris,
In the papers the club put together around this issue ahead of the vote, they mention / remind that in the early 2000s there was a similar vote and the members wanted to remove the livestock then, but for various reasons it was never followed through. I'm not a regular enough visitor to the club to know exactly what the membership feel, but if they wanted to remove the livestock 20 odd years ago, it would surprise me if this recent development was just driven by the greenstaff.
Cheers,
James
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Chris,
In the papers the club put together around this issue ahead of the vote, they mention / remind that in the early 2000s there was a similar vote and the members wanted to remove the livestock then, but for various reasons it was never followed through. I'm not a regular enough visitor to the club to know exactly what the membership feel, but if they wanted to remove the livestock 20 odd years ago, it would surprise me if this recent development was just driven by the greenstaff.
Cheers,
James
Interesting, thanks.
Sounds kinda vague, where can we read about that?
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Chris,
In the papers the club put together around this issue ahead of the vote, they mention / remind that in the early 2000s there was a similar vote and the members wanted to remove the livestock then, but for various reasons it was never followed through. I'm not a regular enough visitor to the club to know exactly what the membership feel, but if they wanted to remove the livestock 20 odd years ago, it would surprise me if this recent development was just driven by the greenstaff.
Cheers,
James
Interesting, thanks.
Sounds kinda vague, where can we read about that?
The club sent out a detailed information packet to members for both issues presented in the EGM.
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Chris,
In the papers the club put together around this issue ahead of the vote, they mention / remind that in the early 2000s there was a similar vote and the members wanted to remove the livestock then, but for various reasons it was never followed through. I'm not a regular enough visitor to the club to know exactly what the membership feel, but if they wanted to remove the livestock 20 odd years ago, it would surprise me if this recent development was just driven by the greenstaff.
Cheers,
James
Interesting, thanks.
Sounds kinda vague, where can we read about that?
The club sent out a detailed information packet to members for both issues presented in the EGM.
Excellent.
Was there a vote in the "early 2000's" as mentioned above?
How much will the contractual/legal costs be for executing on the recent ill-advised successful vote?
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Chris,
I think it was mentioned in the info packet but I can’t be sure. I’m too busy experimenting with Yorkshire puddings to look it up.
You seem very struck by this decision. I hope your holiday season can make up for the pain you seem to be feeling over Brora’s membership deciding what they think is best for Brora. Merry Christmas.
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Chris,
I think it was mentioned in the info packet but I can’t be sure. I’m too busy experimenting with Yorkshire puddings to look it up.
You seem very struck by this decision. I hope your holiday season can make up for the pain you seem to be feeling over Brora’s membership deciding what they think is best for Brora. Merry Christmas.
@BenMalach, does this constitute an "Ad hominem attack"?!?
;D ;D ;D
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Chris,
Perhaps you’re right. I didn’t think what I wrote was an attack as much as I thought it was a polite way of saying that 1) you’re not going to get the answer you want and 2) no one here is under an obligation to provide club data to you. I’m sure you understand that when clubs give proprietary information to their members, discretion is to be expected.
Back to your latest. If we’re going to engage in the fun of identifying poster’s logical fallacies, I’d just ask that you weren’t so forceful about shifting the burden of proof to others here that have tried to provide you information. Claiming that staff is driving the bus or round-about insinuating that another poster’s words are vague and so you need more proof is just not productive. People have reasoned with you and because you don’t like the answer, you browbeat. I’m not sure what else to say except that if it matters this much, they will gladly accept your membership application without delay at Brora. They’re great people, it’s a lovely village, and the golf course is pretty good with other courses of interest nearby. But before you jump in though, ask yourself if it’s the sheep or the golf course that attracts and retains members at Brora.
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I've stayed quiet in this thread so far because I haven't actually been to Brora, but looking at the conversation, I think we're tiptoeing around a lot of the concerns, so I may try illustrate the two forces I see more clearly.
I think the theme here boils down to general shock (which I'll admit I share) vs "it's up to the members." It being up to the members, however, doesn't have bearing on the prudence of the decision, yet, they do have the most skin in the game, which one should hope strongly associates with prudence.
I think much of the attention here comes from the sudden change in the club's financial position. We have a club that, within five short years, goes from the verge of bankruptcy, to buying their land, with enough money left over to start talking about improving in the rankings. I think the general shock comes from the fact that a club that turned to the good will of the golf community would so quickly start making dramatic changes as soon as their fortunes change. Whether or not it's a good decision, I think it's worthy of a raised eyebrow.
This brings to mind the Lindy effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect), which is about institutional survival. That is, the course has survived in its current form since 1923 (I think?) by doing something right, not by doing something wrong. Significant change can be dangerous when you’re a survivor. I just worry that their success came exactly from not being able to compete with Dornoch on status, which meant they were a refreshing change of scenery when people visited.
The relevant question in my mind is whether the good will of the golf community would have done the same for Golspie if the covid financial shock had hit them instead (as was noted to have removed their grazing animals in the late 1980s). I don't know that they would have, but I could be wrong. I do think, however, that a course that exists as a croft offers something unique that does not directly compete on the same lines as the conditioning and architecture of a standard course.
I hope I’m wrong though. I know that the staff and members know vastly more than I do and I obviously want all these courses to succeed. I know if Coul goes through, the entire region will be fighting for the influx of high-end golf tourism, so I do understand the economic incentive to compete for that demo, and it certainly makes sense if the area around the Dornoch Firth suddenly becomes a destination competing with the Forth and Clyde.
I know that I am planning a trip to Scotland specifically to play courses on crofting land, and Brora was at the top of my list. Now it's not even on my list, which is a bummer, but I may head that way regardless.
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The membership vote raises an interesting question.
Who is actually entitled to vote under a Clubs constitution?
At some clubs only certain categories of members can vote on matters. Sometimes it may be only Full Members, ie those who pay the annual full fee and most likely live locally. At other Clubs other categories of membership may be included. At some it might be shareholders only. It can vary considerably. Indeed sometimes it’s only those who turn-up at the required club meeting who are able to vote as the vote may be by show of hands on the night only.
This is important and can have repercussions even potentially unpleasant ones, when say, the locals want one thing and those holding a different category of membership, paying a different subscription or residing elsewhere for whatever reason want something else.
Club constitutions or whatever term you choose to describe them are frequently under appreciated aspects of a Club but they are key to its operation, its history and its ongoing existence. What they say and how they are worded should always be considered very, very carefully. As is frequently the case in many matters the devil is in the detail so best not ignore the small print.
Atb
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What kind of legal process will ensue with the crofts?
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I've stayed quiet in this thread so far because I haven't actually been to Brora, but looking at the conversation, I think we're tiptoeing around a lot of the concerns, so I may try illustrate the two forces I see more clearly.
I think the theme here boils down to general shock (which I'll admit I share) vs "it's up to the members." It being up to the members, however, doesn't have bearing on the prudence of the decision, yet, they do have the most skin in the game, which one should hope strongly associates with prudence.
I think much of the attention here comes from the sudden change in the club's financial position. We have a club that, within five short years, goes from the verge of bankruptcy, to buying their land, with enough money left over to start talking about improving in the rankings. I think the general shock comes from the fact that a club that turned to the good will of the golf community would so quickly start making dramatic changes as soon as their fortunes change. Whether or not it's a good decision, I think it's worthy of a raised eyebrow.
This brings to mind the Lindy effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect), which is about institutional survival. That is, the course has survived in its current form since 1923 (I think?) by doing something right, not by doing something wrong. Significant change can be dangerous when you’re a survivor. I just worry that their success came exactly from not being able to compete with Dornoch on status, which meant they were a refreshing change of scenery when people visited.
The relevant question in my mind is whether the good will of the golf community would have done the same for Golspie if the covid financial shock had hit them instead (as was noted to have removed their grazing animals in the late 1980s). I don't know that they would have, but I could be wrong. I do think, however, that a course that exists as a croft offers something unique that does not directly compete on the same lines as the conditioning and architecture of a standard course.
I hope I’m wrong though. I know that the staff and members know vastly more than I do and I obviously want all these courses to succeed. I know if Coul goes through, the entire region will be fighting for the influx of high-end golf tourism, so I do understand the economic incentive to compete for that demo, and it certainly makes sense if the area around the Dornoch Firth suddenly becomes a destination competing with the Forth and Clyde.
I know that I am planning a trip to Scotland specifically to play courses on crofting land, and Brora was at the top of my list. Now it's not even on my list, which is a bummer, but I may head that way regardless.
The sudden good fortune of the club has nothing to do with my opinion. I am happy the club is on sound financial footing. My opinion is based more on turf quality and a more natural course presentation. The powers that be suggest there will be no difference in the quality of the rough and presumably the fairways. I can only take an expert’s opinion at face value. That said, there has been no mention of added cost to retain turf quality or rough height without sheep. There must be cost involved. Furthermore, future committees and green keepers may well choose to go the proverbial championship route and foster higher rough height. I see this as a real danger and if done, it would seriously impact the fun factor of Brora. Time will tell and I wish them well, but I am very much in the camp of trust and verify.
Ciao
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I've stayed quiet in this thread so far because I haven't actually been to Brora, but looking at the conversation, I think we're tiptoeing around a lot of the concerns, so I may try illustrate the two forces I see more clearly.
I think the theme here boils down to general shock (which I'll admit I share) vs "it's up to the members." It being up to the members, however, doesn't have bearing on the prudence of the decision, yet, they do have the most skin in the game, which one should hope strongly associates with prudence.
I think much of the attention here comes from the sudden change in the club's financial position. We have a club that, within five short years, goes from the verge of bankruptcy, to buying their land, with enough money left over to start talking about improving in the rankings. I think the general shock comes from the fact that a club that turned to the good will of the golf community would so quickly start making dramatic changes as soon as their fortunes change. Whether or not it's a good decision, I think it's worthy of a raised eyebrow.
This brings to mind the Lindy effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect), which is about institutional survival. That is, the course has survived in its current form since 1923 (I think?) by doing something right, not by doing something wrong. Significant change can be dangerous when you’re a survivor. I just worry that their success came exactly from not being able to compete with Dornoch on status, which meant they were a refreshing change of scenery when people visited.
The relevant question in my mind is whether the good will of the golf community would have done the same for Golspie if the covid financial shock had hit them instead (as was noted to have removed their grazing animals in the late 1980s). I don't know that they would have, but I could be wrong. I do think, however, that a course that exists as a croft offers something unique that does not directly compete on the same lines as the conditioning and architecture of a standard course.
I hope I’m wrong though. I know that the staff and members know vastly more than I do and I obviously want all these courses to succeed. I know if Coul goes through, the entire region will be fighting for the influx of high-end golf tourism, so I do understand the economic incentive to compete for that demo, and it certainly makes sense if the area around the Dornoch Firth suddenly becomes a destination competing with the Forth and Clyde.
I know that I am planning a trip to Scotland specifically to play courses on crofting land, and Brora was at the top of my list. Now it's not even on my list, which is a bummer, but I may head that way regardless.
The sudden good fortune of the club has nothing to do with my opinion. I am happy the club is on sound financial footing. My opinion is based more on turf quality and a more natural course presentation. The powers that be suggest there will be no difference in the quality of the rough and presumably the fairways. I can only take an expert’s opinion at face value. That said, there has been no mention of added cost to retain turf quality or rough height without sheep. There must be cost involved. Furthermore, future committees and green keepers may well choose to go the proverbial championship route and foster higher rough height. I see this as a real danger and if done, it would seriously impact the fun factor of Brora. Time will tell and I wish them well, but I am very much in the camp of trust and verify.
Ciao
Ditto
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There is an air of incredulity among non-stakeholders on this thread that seems wholly bizarre to me. There are a considerable number of non-members that have spent more time in Brora and played Brora more than I have just in this thread. And indeed many more that aren’t posters here. But paying a subscription and making a commitment to a club and place has its privileges. One of those at Brora, for Full Playing Members, is a vote.
Having an opinion, and often a vociferous one, on golf matters at private clubs in which posters aren’t members is common in my time on GCA.com. I see no issue with it in most instances. But this thread seems very different from some of those architecturally significant conversations over the years. It seeks collectively to impugn a club for being financially fortunate in a dire time and also to question its managerial decisions that are member-led. To me, this sort of conversation resembles indignation for the GB&I-style private club model we champion on this website. Based on the number and tenor of private messages I am receiving, my opinion on the peculiarity of how this thread has evolved isn’t just my own.
PS—Matt, you really should go to Brora. There’s animals grazing on it until there isn’t. And as of right now, those animals are still there.
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Ben
There are countless threads regarding private club decision making. This thread is merely countless +1. If we didn’t discuss private club decisions this site wouldn’t exist.
Ciao
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But this thread seems very different from some of those architecturally significant conversations over the years. It seeks collectively to impugn a club for being financially fortunate in a dire time and also to question its managerial decisions that are member-led.
I don’t mean any disrespect to the club here. I also don’t want dance around the elephant in the room. You’re curiosity here seems to completely ignore the contiguity of an imminent bankruptcy and these major changes.
Now, I don’t know the details of the last five years, and I don’t know the details of the near bankruptcy, but it stands to reason that the same membership voting in this change was mostly the same as the membership who were at the helm at the brink of disaster. This is why I think the changes are worthy of a raised eyebrow.
Again, I don’t know the details, and can’t and won’t pass judgement, but I’m not one to clutch pearls either. If I’d paid a pretty penny for one of those lifetime(?) memberships, I assume I’d be annoyed, but perhaps I misunderstand the situation.
That said, all the best to the club of course. I certainly know that my views on courses and maintenance stray pretty far from most folks’.
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But this thread seems very different from some of those architecturally significant conversations over the years. It seeks collectively to impugn a club for being financially fortunate in a dire time and also to question its managerial decisions that are member-led.
I don’t mean any disrespect to the club here. I also don’t want dance around the elephant in the room. You’re curiosity here seems to completely ignore the contiguity of an imminent bankruptcy and these major changes.
Now, I don’t know the details of the last five years, and I don’t know the details of the near bankruptcy, but it stands to reason that the same membership voting in this change was mostly the same as the membership who were at the helm at the brink of disaster. This is why I think the changes are worthy of a raised eyebrow.
Again, I don’t know the details, and can’t and won’t pass judgement, but I’m not one to clutch pearls either. If I’d paid a pretty penny for one of those lifetime(?) memberships, I assume I’d be annoyed, but perhaps I misunderstand the situation.
That said, all the best to the club of course. I certainly know that my views on courses and maintenance stray pretty far from most folks’.
Matt,
You saying there’s an elephant in the room doesn’t mean there is one. I recognize a windfall, and that an organization—with the blessing of their constituency—is using those funds as they see fit. Nothing more or less.
In the end I think it better to back off from this conversation. As Sean points out, there’s hundreds of examples on this website about people discussing private club matters. Rarely does it pay for anyone with skin in the game to participate.
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Sean A. -
With regards to the possible added expense of the greens staff having to mow/maintain the rough in the future, don't forget a good portion of that expense is likely to be offset by the man hours saved shoveling dung and excrement off on and around the course. In addition, the staff will not have to spend man hours repairing bunkers and the walls of the burns that have been damaged by the livestock on the course. Finally, the electrical wires surrounding the greens will no longer have to be serviced/maintained.
Personally, I would be happy to see the rough grown maybe 1/2 inch higher. I think it would give the fairways a little more definition and minimize the "lost in space" feeling I sometimes get playing there.
DT
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Chris,
Perhaps you’re right. I didn’t think what I wrote was an attack [Ben, I promise I didn't take it as an "attack", if you see ;D ;D ;D , be assured I am joking. If anything it was a shot at the "Ad hominem" woke brigade, LOL.] as much as I thought it was a polite way of saying that 1) you’re not going to get the answer you want [$191,000 in "legal fees and compensation to farmers" for breaking the contract] and 2) no one here is under an obligation to provide club data to you [Agreed]. I’m sure you understand that when clubs give proprietary information to their members, discretion is to be expected [Nice thought, HIGHLY unlikely].
Back to your latest. If we’re going to engage in the fun of identifying poster’s logical fallacies, I’d just ask that you weren’t so forceful about shifting the burden of proof to others here that have tried to provide you information [no info has been put forth]. Claiming that staff is driving the bus [it still appears that way to me, tbc] or round-about insinuating that another poster’s words are vague [they were] and so you need more proof is just not productive [the beauty of being an American is we are all entitled to an opinion ;) ]. People have reasoned with you and because you don’t like the answer, you browbeat [to quote a dolt I know, the scroll button is your friend]. I’m not sure what else to say except that if it matters this much [it really does pain me when an iconic organization takes a chainsaw to the embedded culture/fabric of the place, especially so when the majestic Highland cow is a resultant casualty], they will gladly accept your membership application without delay at Brora. They’re great people, it’s a lovely village, and the golf course is pretty good with other courses of interest nearby. But before you jump in though, ask yourself if it’s the sheep or the golf course that attracts and retains members at Brora [this sea-change isn't about "attracting/retaining members", it's about fleecing baaa tourists].
Ben, I'm told you are a long-tenured U.S. armed forces aviator -- thank you for your service.
My Dad (Ben!) was a Naval aviator, you guys are bad-asses... 🙌
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If I’d paid a pretty penny for one of those lifetime(?) memberships, I assume I’d be annoyed, but perhaps I misunderstand the situation.
Matt, I do agree it's a unique situation where a course is near collapse and in such a short time later is seemingly in an excellent financial situation but have to believe those who joined are quite happy.
I was seriously considering joining Brora during covid but ultimately went with Carne (another course that received strong backing from social media). From both an emotional and financial perspective I think those who joined the clubs during that time are very happy. The emotional satisfaction should be obvious...the courses survived and are thriving. Financially I think it also turned out to be a pretty good deal. £5k for the lifetime Brora membership is less than I had previously paid for a year membership in the US. Up until relatively recently Brora was still advertising the platinum £10k life membership.
I don't care if there is grazing on the course. Each member of the club should do what they think is in their and the clubs best interest. What I do care about is the cost to play. It's clear I'm getting old as I look back on the past fondly. My first overseas golf trip about 10 years ago consisted of 60+ rounds in 30 days. Brora was £55 and it's now £160. A trip like that would be tough for a recent grad on a budget to replicate...even with my increased budget it'd be tough for me to replicate that trip.
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Personally, I would be happy to see the rough grown maybe 1/2 inch higher. I think it would give the fairways a little more definition and minimize the "lost in space" feeling I sometimes get playing there.
DT
"Lost in space" is a great description of why I (currently) love it there. Vive la difference.
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Personally, I would be happy to see the rough grown maybe 1/2 inch higher. I think it would give the fairways a little more definition and minimize the "lost in space" feeling I sometimes get playing there.
DT
"Lost in space" is a great description of why I (currently) love it there. Vive la difference.
Yes, the lack of definition is a feature of Brora I admire!
Merry Christmas
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Sean A. -
With regards to the possible added expense of the greens staff having to mow/maintain the rough in the future, don't forget a good portion of that expense is likely to be offset by the man hours saved shoveling dung and excrement off on and around the course. In addition, the staff will not have to spend man hours repairing bunkers and the walls of the burns that have been damaged by the livestock on the course. Finally, the electrical wires surrounding the greens will no longer have to be serviced/maintained.
Personally, I would be happy to see the rough grown maybe 1/2 inch higher. I think it would give the fairways a little more definition and minimize the "lost in space" feeling I sometimes get playing there.
DT
You'll be lucky if the rough is maintained at 1/2 inch in the areas previously grazed.
Hopefully the rough doesn't end up like Golspie or R. Dornoch, where your heart sinks when the ball leaves the fairway.
Even after a slice over the blind rise at Brora's first into noman's land, one strode off the tee confident of finding the ball on a bit of nibbled down turf.
Glad tidings and merriment to all
🌲🎄🤶⛄😁
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"Hopefully the rough doesn't end up like Golspie or R. Dornoch, where your heart sinks when the ball leaves the fairway."
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[/size]John C-S:[/color]
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[/size]Really? I have played Golspie & Royal Dornoch close to 600 times total over the last 25 years. My heart rarely sinks when my ball leaves the fairway (and it leaves the fairway often[/color] :) :) )[/size].[/color]
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[/size]DT [/color]
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David,
I bow to your superior knowledge of the course and your avoidance of the rough.
My experience of Golspie and Royal Dornoch is intermittent over a 40 year stretch and having a friend who is a member of RD has given me the opportunity to play it about 20 times. The first time I played in the 80's in April I remember a wispy rough and the undulations outside the fairway being clearly visible.
I also remember a period in the 2010's where the rough was thick and nasty.
In fairness when I played a couple of times last year 2023 in October the rough had been dramatically cut back.
From my own experience generally the condition of the rough is dependent, not only on the time of year and the amount of rain, but also on ecological restrictions during part of the year to protect bird nesting and plant seed reproduction, usually till the end of July.
Then comes maintenance practices when low man power and machines can restrict the greenkeeper team from controlling the rough. Not a problem for RD any more.
I'll look forward to visiting the highlands 2025 and if you are around it would be fun to compare notes on the conditions of the rough, particularly Brora, and their impact on our hearts.
Cheers
John
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The membership vote raises an interesting question.
Who is actually entitled to vote under a Clubs constitution?
Atb
Good question. Can't answer it per se, but press reports indicate last the time this issue was broached (circa 2000), and a "successful" vote was secured... the decision was set aside when it was learned that not all eligible members had been personally notified, as the club constitution requires."
The 21 crofters involved had already rejected a £60K offer and after the Brora internal voting irregularities were uncovered, the movement appears to have collapsed upon itself.
24-years later, and one large crowd-sourced cash infusion later, the issue has bubbled to the surface again.
If I’d paid a pretty penny for one of those lifetime(?) memberships, I assume I’d be annoyed, but perhaps I misunderstand the situation.
Matt, I do agree it's a unique situation where a course is near collapse and in such a short time later is seemingly in an excellent financial situation but have to believe those who joined are quite happy.
I don't care if there is grazing on the course. What I do care about is the cost to play. My first overseas golf trip about 10 years ago consisted of 60+ rounds in 30 days. Brora was £55 and it's now £160. A trip like that would be tough for a recent grad on a budget to replicate...even with my increased budget it'd be tough for me to replicate that trip.
Joe,
£160 now headed for £300?? (if the "plan" comes to fruition)
Unexpected good fortune has availed the club of a big whiff of the devil's ether and as Barlow & Weir wrote -- "too much of everything is just enough"...
...they are now flush and ready to stroke a $191,000 check to cover "legal fees and compensation to farmers" for breaking the grazing contract.
A few snippets:
"Ending those grazing rights would...allow the club to enhance the course and ultimately boost revenue."
"...visitors from North America will pay top dollar to walk the rumpled fairways of premium courses..."
"For many venues, the equation is simple. One US tourist will pay more for 18 holes - and will probably hire a caddie — than a local member playing with three guests."
“If we were successful in removing them (cows mooo & sheep baaa), I believe we would be able to improve turf quality and the golfer’s experience, move up the rankings and be judged as a golf course rather than a field.” (shoot me :-[ )
45-47 would be proud.
PS... apparently a "flerd" and their associated forage does offer some real environmental benefits and "increases soil aggregation, enhances soil structure, and allows for better water-holding capacity and nutrient exchange. Grazing also contributes soil organic matter and rumen microbes to the soil that help to increase biodiversity, buffer soil temperature, escalate nutrient cycling, and minimize soil compaction and disturbance" --- film at 11p.
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£160 now headed for £300?? (if the "plan" comes to fruition)
I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.
I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.
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£160 now headed for £300?? (if the "plan" comes to fruition)
I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.
I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.
I was thinking similar when you wrote about the £55. We aren’t Doolies anymore that’s for sure. I also think Chris’ hypothesis about £300 (that’s above Dornoch) is pretty ridiculous but it’s a rhetorical device, I get it.
I texted a buddy and said “the days of stumbling up to a Doak 7 for fifty quid is long gone.” It isn’t just Brora. Check out what they want for Western Gailes, or Gullane 1, or Panmure, just to name a few.
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£160 now headed for £300?? (if the "plan" comes to fruition)
I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.
I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.
Joe,
The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.
Niall
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Joe,
The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.
Niall
So am I reading this correctly that a sensible PR discount to introduce local fees for local golfers at highly expensive new resort courses (i.e. a drop in fees) has now morphed into how can we charge/exploit overseas visitors more (with higher fees)...unintended consequences ...
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Joe,
The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.
Niall
So am I reading this correctly that a sensible PR discount to introduce local fees for local golfers at highly expensive new resort courses (i.e. a drop in fees) has now morphed into how can we charge/exploit overseas visitors more (with higher fees) ...unintended consequences ...
👆👆👆
Spot on... 🤙
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Simon
The clubs are just doing what the (US owned) high end pay and play courses were doing and for the same reason ie. to maximise revenue. There's been no change in that from what I can see.
On the Braid thread I think it was you who posted a link to youtuber at Perranporth going round the course with the head greenkeeper, the club manager, a golf consultant and the retained gca. It was fascinating to watch the dynamics. The head greenkeeper was focused on what could be done to make his job easier and the club manager was the one making all the suggestions as to what should be done to make the course "better". The gca seemed to me to be largely just taking note and advising how the changes could be accomplished. The point of the golf consultant, as far as I could tell, was to sell the club managers proposed changes to the members. It struck me that if the members were the ones instigating the changes then there would be no need for the golf consultant.
How that dynamic compares to Brora, I really don't know but I do suspect that the interests of the club manager (more revenue), head greenkeeper (making his job easier) and the members (better playing surfaces) are fully aligned in wanting to remove the livestock.
Niall
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Simon
The clubs are just doing what the (US owned) high end pay and play courses were doing and for the same reason ie. to maximise revenue. There's been no change in that from what I can see.
On the Braid thread I think it was you who posted a link to youtuber at Perranporth going round the course with the head greenkeeper, the club manager, a golf consultant and the retained gca. It was fascinating to watch the dynamics. The head greenkeeper was focused on what could be done to make his job easier and the club manager was the one making all the suggestions as to what should be done to make the course "better". The gca seemed to me to be largely just taking note and advising how the changes could be accomplished. The point of the golf consultant, as far as I could tell, was to sell the club managers proposed changes to the members. It struck me that if the members were the ones instigating the changes then there would be no need for the golf consultant.
How that dynamic compares to Brora, I really don't know but I do suspect that the interests of the club manager (more revenue), head greenkeeper (making his job easier) and the members (better playing surfaces) are fully aligned in wanting to remove the livestock.
Niall
Hi Niall
On the first point there is a nuance here, as the local vs. non-local distinction started back on the opening of Loch Lomond (in 1993) at the virtual insistance of the SGU, in order for some limited access to Scottish non-members. The PR of course was to allow LL to get SGU and other higher events for its desired standing. At one point these SGU times were limited to only 12 golfers a day and there was a lottery for SGU members.
The repeat of this "requirement" at places like Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie, Renaissance etc. does not maximise their revenue, as they can fill their busy tee-sheet very easily with higher non-local (including those resident in GB&I, but not in Scotland) fees in their shorter playing seasons. It's a cost of doing business with the local governing body (acting obh of golfers locally)
The irony is that the distinction (and considerable £ difference in fees) has now been flipped at other venues which were always open to (non-local) visitors, but as a way of increasing/exploiting revenue from those same visitors. There will be another cycle where these visitors may stop coming (as economic cycles recur, and unpredictable geopolitical events happen) and these clubs may really struggle if this source (& quantum) of revenue has been embedded into overhead and running costs.
Such "windfalls" should be carefully stewarded as such, to build reserves and/or invest in projects that lower on-going costs.
Sadly seeing too many "vanity" projects that don't do either (wide grass irrigated paths, over-specified fancy pastiche bunker rebuilds etc.) and these sometimes damage the course architecture and aesthetic.
To get back onto the thread topic (but, without re-opening the argument which has already been lost, by dint of the members) the Course Manager claims they can maintain the roughs as well as the sheep (and his testing areas have shown this)...but what is the embedded on-going cost for scaling this up across an entire course/site? I trust this key point of information was shared with the membership...
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By my count there are approximately 50 courses in GB&I which are still grazed by sheep or cattle or horses or goats or a combination of them. And long may this continue.
Incidentally, I believe TOC at St Andrews was grazed by sheep until 1946. Be nice if it still was.
Be a nice and very visual way of highlighting to the anti-golf brigade, politicians, statutory authorities and society in general that golf, nature and the environment can co-exist and can do so in a harmonious manner.
And golf needs all the help it can get to preserve itself on a finite sized planet with an ever growing and more demanding population yet a planet with limited land and water etc resources.
Atb
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David
The sheep were removed from TOC before WWI (1911 I think). I have a copy letter from the secretary of the R&A which was circulated to a number of clubs in 1924 which sought advice from clubs who had, or had previously, sheep on their course as the Green Committee were considering whether to put sheep back on. I'm fairly certain that they ultimately decided against it.
If there was sheep on TOC c.1946/47 then I strongly suspect it was a hangover from WWII when labour and petrol for tractors would have been in short supply, and perhaps also to help with food production. I doubt they lasted for long and that when things got back to normal they were taken off.
Niall
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New article at golf.com:
https://golf.com/travel/brora-scotland-highlands-livestock-cows-sheep-ban/ (https://golf.com/travel/brora-scotland-highlands-livestock-cows-sheep-ban/)
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In 2019, the club determined that enough was enough. It dug into its coffers and purchased the land. Soon after, Covid hit. But with lockdowns in the past, the membership revisited the livestock issue. When the ballots were tallied, around eight weeks ago, the decision wasn’t close.
I feel like something important might have been glossed over here.
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In 2019, the club determined that enough was enough. It dug into its coffers and purchased the land. Soon after, Covid hit. But with lockdowns in the past, the membership revisited the livestock issue. When the ballots were tallied, around eight weeks ago, the decision wasn’t close.
I feel like something important might have been glossed over here.
Chronology?