Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Wayne_Kozun on May 13, 2024, 05:51:54 PM
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https://www.si.com/golf/jimmy-dunne-resigns-from-pga-tour-board
It will be interesting to see if this makes a deal with the PIF/LIV less likely.
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For those unfamiliar with Jimmy Dunne, he is unequivocally one of the smarter, shrewder people anywhere, in any room.
By little, if any, design of his own, his timing and ability to stay above the fray per the PGA Tour and its rampant greed and stupidity remains impeccable. From deal-making white knight to test pilot correctly pulling the eject button, Mr. Dunne's chess skills are unparalleled. Furthermore, he is a very generous good guy with a big heart who has left a trail of grateful beneficiaries and admirers.
The PGA Tour, led by a disastrous future HBS case study in how to f...k up a monopoly(aka Jay Monahan), is not far from the alligator jaws and its death roll. The quite-spoiled player leadership, talented on course, yet wildly unproven, if not borderline inept off-course, has their governance dirty laundry freshly aired every week. What else would you expect from a group of guys reliant on their Remora-fish agents for all their business advice? This, combined with a steep fall-off in viewership, is hardly a recipe for success. To those of us in the business world, only the participation of the SSG folks stands between a proverbial kick-save and disaster.
The product is poor, transparent with greed, and rapidly losing both audience and relevance. Its internal fortunes (spread unevenly) are doing little to head off its external commercial failures and future. Sponsors see this and are both privately and publicly questioning the validity of both current and future commitments.
Now one of the savvier parties to all the above pulls the ripcord and floats back to his C-suite (and 14+-out-of 10 of the world's best golf club:~) with his reputation intact and a new, friendly hotline to one of the world's largest pools of capital.
FWIW, I think the Tour's smugness, arrogance and overpaid excuse for leadership led to where it is today. Personally, I look forward to a bag of popcorn and a front-of-the-house seat to watching all of this dysfunction continue to unfurl. One day, the Tour--in some new iteration--will re-emerge as worth watching. Until then, we golfers should be happy and content focusing on our own participation as players and the real custodians of the game.
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It makes you wonder if leadership at the Tour ever wanted a merger, or just wanted not to go to court.
The anti-trust expert whose blog I read said from the beginning it would never happen, that the press release announcing it was so full of anti-trust red flags that it was clearly designed to fail. But if that was the intention, I wonder why Jimmy Dunne stayed involved even as long as he did?
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I would second--or add to--the thoughts expressed.
Jimmy Dunne is one of the best, most thoughtful guys in golf.
My understanding of the rationale behind the structure of the PGA Tour Board was to give the players the benefit of sound business minds on aspects of the Tour business. I am told that the business directors always deferred to the Player directors on playing matters and only entered into the discussion on business matters. With the Players having less experience and knowledge of business strategy and issues, this was a strategy beneficial to the Tour.
But, as often happens, non-business people (like the Players) think they know more about business than they really do. The business directors respect their golf abilities, but the respect isn't mutual. Business expertise is a skill just much as is shotmaking, but so many people don't understand or appreciate this--and they pay for it. (Maybe it's why so many doctors and dentists are such poor business people?)
In cutting Jimmy out of the decision loop, the Tour has made a major mistake--and may well pay dearly for it!
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It makes you wonder if leadership at the Tour ever wanted a merger, or just wanted not to go to court.
The anti-trust expert whose blog I read said from the beginning it would never happen, that the press release announcing it was so full of anti-trust red flags that it was clearly designed to fail. But if that was the intention, I wonder why Jimmy Dunne stayed involved even as long as he did?
I think it's fair to say Tour leadership never desired a merger until it had little choice. Only post the Jon Rahm signing and pre the SSG investment was there ever momentum for a deal. You're right that they didn't want to go to court where discovery would've been both embarassing and seriously damaging.
Whomever's podcast you listen to projected a cursory analysis. Sure, there were always anti-trust concerns, especially back when the DP World Tour, European & Asian Tours were quasi-independent and could be considered potential competitors to the PGA Tour. It was always more about a verbal smokescreen for politicians than a potential legal quagmire.
US sports leagues have long enjoyed specific anti-trust exemptions and Jimmy Dunne and Ed Herlihy both knew that and believed they could craft something similar, especially dangling the 501-3c charitable arm of the Tour. They, along with PIF, knew that if they could promote a combination (one without any existing national competition whatsoever) that attend the charity coffers alongside presenting professional golf, they could paint opposing politicians in an unfavorable light...especially if the Saudis became tighter, more codified US allies.
All of this is now in the rearview mirror and the odds of a merger far slimmer than before. The tour would have to find a way to appease both the greediest of the players (need not look beyond Cantlay & Woods.... and don't forget the influence of their avaricious agents) and the guys at SSG who are neither pushovers, nor stupid. PIF knows this and has little reason to change from simply poaching more stars with real upfront $$$$. Pro golf is digging itself a deep hole.
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Slapper:
So; with your bucket of air-popped popcorn (less calories and bad cholesterol for those of us of the AARP card carrying category), diet coke and cigar; handicap for us how this might play out between the PGA Tour & PIF/LIV.
I though with Woods (and Steinberg the business brains behind Tiger Inc) McIlroy & Cantlay on the PGA/PIF working subcommittee, there would have enough brains to get things accomplished behind closed doors. The two stars bring the PR muscle in to sell the deal to the PGA rank and file and John Q. Public; while staying free of Congressional Subcommittee Hearings on "Fairness' & "Foreign Government Interference in American Sports".
Reading today's paper you can see why Rory was distracted and not at his best - home life a-shambles and that's a shame with a young child. Hopefully his personal life doesn't detract from his public life as it did for Mr. Woods.
I'd really like to get back to the best playing the best more than 4x a year but as a businessman I get PIF and being the 400 kg monster in the room.
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Steve,
In the spirit of Bruce's comment, I'm curious what the PGATour could have done to resist the aforementioned proverbial 881 lb gorilla with its near trillion dollar fund? Even stipulating the Tour was arrogant, greedy, etc, what meaningful moves could they have actually made to counteract PIF's strategy in flushing billions (a mere rounding error in value) down the toilet to poach many of its biggest names with ungodly money and watch the Tour wither on the vine?
I get armchair QB'ing from the cheap seats and 20/20 and all, but in this situation, I don't see any defenses they had at their disposal.
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Steve,
In the spirit of Bruce's comment, I'm curious what the PGATour could have done to resist the aforementioned proverbial 881 lb gorilla with its near trillion dollar fund? Even stipulating the Tour was arrogant, greedy, etc, what meaningful moves could they have actually made to counteract PIF's strategy in flushing billions (a mere rounding error in value) down the toilet to poach many of its biggest names with ungodly money and watch the Tour wither on the vine?
I get armchair QB'ing from the cheap seats and 20/20 and all, but in this situation, I don't see any defenses they had at their disposal.
Gents,
I have no crystal ball to look into and give you anything more than some history and some personal speculation.
Years back, several different people and parties made pilgrimages to Ponte Vedra proposing various ideas for a World Tour. Some were raw and acrimonious, others polished. Names you know like Greg Norman and some you don't... like Andy Gardiner. The PGA Tour gave the proverbial Heisman to all of them. Jay Monahan was privy to all of those. The Saudis were just the latest, and with the deepest pockets.
Like a company that has no corporate defenses to a hostile takeover, it is the fault of senior management to not recognize that outsiders were looking to compete, and ultimately able to outmaneuver the institutional, staid business at a time of vulnerability. Thats why I believe the events of the last 24mos. will be a premier case study at the likes of HBS, Stanford, Wharton or Ross business schools in the not too distant future.
What could've the PGA Tour done? It could've sat down at the table with Yassir and PIF shortly after they emerged and crafted a deal to co-opt the bidding wars by creating a world-oriented tour and invent a new tour with occasionaly different formats that showcased talent in a new light. Instead, they turtled inwards, protected Jay and thought they could continue to exist like the corner book store down the block from a terrestrial Amazon. Of course, this is very easy to describe with 20-20 hindsight, but shrewd sports investors like Gerry Cardinale, John Henry, Robert Kraft and Arthur Blank and certainly the PIF all saw vestiges of this strategy through moves made over the last decade by the Premier league football, NFL, F1 etc...
Ultimately, the SSG move was the only available bailout absent a merger that would've likely included the necessary beheading of Greg, Jay and half the Tour and LIV staffs. The SSG guys are smart and I'm hearing they would like to subsume or buy The Golf Channel inorder to re-leverage the media component and help centralize and monetize the content. The TGL and it's leadership have been twice as shrewd promoting that kind of competitive content. Face it, having another Rocket Mortgage or RBC Heritage event in a third tier location doesn't do much for the brand, nor the reputation of the pros. IMO, only a whole shake-up of professional golf (in a way we have yet to see it) will create renewed interest. Until then, only the Majors have any chance of retaining $$-enabled eyeballs.
PS Bruce, please substitute some single malt for the Diet Coke......to hell with the AARP suggestions for prostate health :`)
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Steve,
In the spirit of Bruce's comment, I'm curious what the PGATour could have done to resist the aforementioned proverbial 881 lb gorilla with its near trillion dollar fund? Even stipulating the Tour was arrogant, greedy, etc, what meaningful moves could they have actually made to counteract PIF's strategy in flushing billions (a mere rounding error in value) down the toilet to poach many of its biggest names with ungodly money and watch the Tour wither on the vine?
I get armchair QB'ing from the cheap seats and 20/20 and all, but in this situation, I don't see any defenses they had at their disposal.
Gents,
I have no crystal ball to look into and give you anything more than some history and some personal speculation.
Years back, several different people and parties made pilgrimages to Ponte Vedra proposing various ideas for a World Tour. Some were raw and acrimonious, others polished. Names you know like Greg Norman and some you don't... like Andy Gardiner. The PGA Tour gave the proverbial Heisman to all of them. Jay Monahan was privy to all of those. The Saudis were just the latest, and with the deepest pockets.
Like a company that has no corporate defenses to a hostile takeover, it is the fault of senior management to not recognize that outsiders were looking to compete, and ultimately able to outmaneuver the institutional, staid business at a time of vulnerability. Thats why I believe the events of the last 24mos. will be a premier case study at the likes of HBS, Stanford, Wharton or Ross business schools in the not too distant future.
What could've the PGA Tour done? It could've sat down at the table with Yassir and PIF shortly after they emerged and crafted a deal to co-opt the bidding wars by creating a world-oriented tour and invent a new tour with occasionaly different formats that showcased talent in a new light. Instead, they turtled inwards, protected Jay and thought they could continue to exist like the corner book store down the block from a terrestrial Amazon. Of course, this is very easy to describe with 20-20 hindsight, but shrewd sports investors like Gerry Cardinale, John Henry, Robert Kraft and Arthur Blank and certainly the PIF all saw vestiges of this strategy through moves made over the last decade by the Premier league football, NFL, F1 etc...
Ultimately, the SSG move was the only available bailout absent a merger that would've likely included the necessary beheading of Greg, Jay and half the Tour and LIV staffs. The SSG guys are smart and I'm hearing they would like to subsume or buy The Golf Channel inorder to re-leverage the media component and help centralize and monetize the content. The TGL and it's leadership have been twice as shrewd promoting that kind of competitive content. Face it, having another Rocket Mortgage or RBC Heritage event in a third tier location doesn't do much for the brand, nor the reputation of the pros. IMO, only a whole shake-up of professional golf (in a way we have yet to see it) will create renewed interest. Until then, only the Majors have any chance of retaining $$-enabled eyeballs.
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By little, if any, design of his own, his timing and ability to stay above the fray per the PGA Tour and its rampant greed and stupidity remains impeccable. From deal-making white knight to test pilot correctly pulling the eject button, Mr. Dunne's chess skills are unparalleled. Furthermore, he is a very generous good guy with a big heart who has left a trail of grateful beneficiaries and admirers.
I wouldn't be so sure:
https://twitter.com/desertdufferLLG/status/1790171313786765716 (https://twitter.com/desertdufferLLG/status/1790171313786765716)
Jimmy wanted to get his, too, and when he wasn't given control… he quit. He's possibly (likely?) as selfish here as anyone.
In cutting Jimmy out of the decision loop, the Tour has made a major mistake--and may well pay dearly for it!
Hmmmmm.
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How well would a global tour work? Hasn't the issue in the past been that most of the American players didn't like travelling and had no interest in attending overseas events? Isn't that what killed the WGC events?
Are guys like Scheffler, Spieth, JT, etc any different and want to experience the world and see different experiences and different golf courses? Or do they prefer playing bland courses in Florida for big bucks instead?
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I once followed some tennis. Now the four majors are all I have any interest in. At least each is two weeks, so Tennis gets two months of focus. A few more signature and LIV events and just the majors and a few familiar tour venues is all I really know. All sports have only recently become generational wealth creators. Difficult to say everyone is in trouble when business people circle the game, and other sports, like opportunistic vultures. First world problems. How much more green paper can we get. Side show. The smell and sound of club on ball is all that really matters as far as golf goes.
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If you wish a little mental enlightenment from a seasoned and intelligent observer (will never be me!), read this:
https://golf.com/news/jimmy-dunne-exit-power-struggle-societal-shift/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golfcom&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate( (https://golf.com/news/jimmy-dunne-exit-power-struggle-societal-shift/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golfcom&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate()
Erik,
Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
Jimmy Dunne's character has stood the test of time. That is more than can be said for so many of the bigger name folks involved in today's professional golf morass.
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Ultimately, the SSG move was the only available bailout absent a merger that would've likely included the necessary beheading of Greg, Jay and half the Tour and LIV staffs.
Actually, in spite of the long article you just linked above, I think this line does the best job of explaining what is [not] happening.
The right business move would be to get rid of most of the people running these two organizations, and those people are doing their best to stay in control and not to let that happen.
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The most prolific choker in major championship history and a degenerate gambler backed by unlimited funds seem to be on the verge of succeeding in their quest to ruin the pga tour. The tour that without, no one ever would have heard of them.
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If you wish a little mental enlightenment from a seasoned and intelligent observer (will never be me!), read this:
https://golf.com/news/jimmy-dunne-exit-power-struggle-societal-shift/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golfcom&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate( (https://golf.com/news/jimmy-dunne-exit-power-struggle-societal-shift/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golfcom&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate()
Erik,
Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
Jimmy Dunne's character has stood the test of time. That is more than can be said for so many of the bigger name folks involved in today's professional golf morass.
I don’t know Jimmy Dunne but I’ve read a lot about him, all has been positive. I don’t see him as the the guy when asked what his “number” is, replies “more”.
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Given that its been almost a year since the "framework" announcement coupled with the increase of acrimony yet again between the two sides, I'm betting they are no closer now than then.
Tom's explanation seems most correct, it was just a stall tactic for future lawsuit/court action, and I can't blame them for taking that route.
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The Saudis (and to a large extent Russia, too) are playing long-ball and seeking to be more diversified geographically and economically as they prepare for when, based on the new market demand in 10-20 years, oil crawls back to under $20/barrel and their music stops.
Phil was at the end of storied career and he got to flip the bird to the PGA as he lined his wallet in a spectacular, yet predictable, cash grab.
Norman was going to die on this hill regardless so he finally found deep pocket partners to consummate his revenge-fueled ultimate move over the PGA tour and a "EF You" to Tiger Woods.
Greed + Envy + Money + Spite = POWERful disruptive tailwinds.
But, can the LIV model be sustained?
Will new rising young stars find a home and a purpose there?
Or, will the PGA's new economic incentives now keep the troops loyal while this all plays out?
Unless LIV consistently finds new young talent every year to LIV-it-up with Phil, DJ, Brooksie and Jon, their "league" will be nothing but a bunch of formerly great players now "playing resort courses in shorts" with their friends intramurally.
Rahm's silly little presser yesterday all but revealed his deep buyer's remorse.
Let Poulter flap his pie-hole. He's irrelevant.
Let Phil chirp away his chip on his shoulder caused by Tiger's total dominance over him.
DJ....love him...he's a pure spirit and he did it so he could "make more by working less". Respect.
I dont know jimmy Dunne, but I dont think he makes or breaks golf in America.
Deep down I bet he despises the Saudis and wants to see them squirm. I'm hopeful that some media/private equity combo platter cleans this shit up with fresh billions of new capital in the next 1-2 years and that Jimmy Dunne brokered the whole thing.
Let this 54 hole, shotgun start, no cut, guarantee pay programming play out. It's only watched in Australia.
If new talent doesnt cross over to LIV, then it dies.
Outside of Rahmbo, who else of note has defected in the last year?
My point exactly.
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The Rahm presser yesterday was ridiculous inasmuch as he “still considers himself a PGA Tour member.” That ship sailed. ???
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Read what Lucas Glover has to say on this topic; it's refreshing:
Lucas Glover lashes out against PGA Tour player directors: 'We have no business having the majority' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/lucas-glover-lashes-out-against-pga-tour-player-directors-we-have-no-business-having-the-majority/ar-BB1mrSBh?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=a0d19f306bf84a1a8cf662c6101dd084&ei=17)
The gist:
Now that Dunne is out, the tour's Policy Board features six current PGA Tour players—Patrick Cantlay, Peter Malnati, Adam Scott, Webb Simpson, Jordan Spieth and Tiger Woods—and just four independent directors. A replacement for Dunne is expected to be named to return the number to five.
"We [the players] have no business having the majority," Glover said. "Tour players play golf. Businessmen run business. They don't tell us how to hit 7 irons. We shouldn't be telling them how to run a business.
"We are running a business now. And we're all on the same team because this for-profit entity that's about to launch needs to get right. It needs to be right. And players that think they know more than Jimmy Dunne, players that think they know more than Ed Herlihy, players that think they know more than Joe Gorder, players that think they know more than Jay Monahan, when it comes to business, are wrong."
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Read what Lucas Glover has to say on this topic; it's refreshing:
Lucas Glover lashes out against PGA Tour player directors: 'We have no business having the majority' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/lucas-glover-lashes-out-against-pga-tour-player-directors-we-have-no-business-having-the-majority/ar-BB1mrSBh?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=a0d19f306bf84a1a8cf662c6101dd084&ei=17)
"We [the players] have no business having the majority," Glover said. "Tour players play golf. Businessmen run business. They don't tell us how to hit 7 irons. We shouldn't be telling them how to run a business.[/size]
The inmates are running the asylum. What could go wrong??? ???
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The Rahm presser yesterday was ridiculous inasmuch as he “still considers himself a PGA Tour member.” That ship sailed. ???
I get why everyone is bent out of shape over this...but technically speaking he is right.
When I got suspended in high school, I wasn't kicked out right? Same for a sports figure or endless other examples.
If the PGATour actually never wanted him back they could use a word like "expelled" in the memo or say "his membership was revoked"...but they didn't did they? :)
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Years ago I mostly stopped watching/attending Major League sports in favor of minor league, college(especially smaller) and high school sports.
The hassle. crowds, traffic, lines, entitlement etc. just never seemed worth it to me.
Additionally, committing a significant portion of leisure time to keep up with the various pro sports just was no longer worth it.
I love a small town minor league baseball game, and this winter I attended the most fun sporting event I've ever attended in Fernie BC at a minor league hockey game. The arena was packed, the energy intense, and the crowd was very local, and extremely vocal.
The visitors were down 3-1 with 1:21 left in the game and pulled out a 4-3 win 30 seconds into OT when one of the home team players was dispatched to the penalty box. 3 goals in less than two minutes in a frenetic hostile environment.
The place was electric the entire game-despite the disappointing outcome.
The first week of April I attended a minor league baseball game in Augusta GA, Great fun energy and spirit again.
In fairness, I also attended a Rangers playoff game a few weeks ago, and it was pretty darn good, but the hassle factor was high.
Give me that Fernie game any day.
For years golf remained relatively pure, at least by comparison, BUT...now it is not.
Pity.
Play more, attend local events, travel to golf courses rather than events etc.
Doesn't change my love of golf-just don't need to watch spoiled golfers, or any other athlete talk about "generational wealth" as opposed to their love for the sport(anymore than I want to listen to a Real estate or tech mogul chat about his wealth)
The stars that took the money didn't need to, leaving is on them, not the Saudis, and those who did need the money, or were aging out. were not a loss for the Tour.
Life goes on and we all live with our choices.
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Most of the LIV players are over the hill. The exceptions:
DJ--I don't think he even likes golf that much, he just likes what golf has gotten him. If he can get those $$$ without playing or practicing, and can spend more time on his boat and with his wife, he's happy to do that.
Koepka--Based on the Netflix show, he really thought his career was in jeopardy due to injuries, and wanted the guaranteed money to protect his family. If he knew he was going to get well, he wouldn't have left the PGA Tour.
Cam Smith--By going to LIV, he can play more overseas, particularly in Asia, and spend more time at home in Australia, and less time in the US.
Rahm--Maybe he'll relocate back to Spain, and spend less time here, similar to Smith.
DeChambeau--Also lost in the PGA Tour wilderness due to injury from his fascination with muscle and distance. His situation, IMHO, was similar to Koepka's.
I would also note that these guys all have long-term exemptions in the majors, from having won a major, and DJ and Rahm now have lifetime exemptions to the Masters. If you're in the Masters, your part of the golf fraternity, whether you're on the PGA Tour or not. It appears to me they weren't giving up much by going to LIV, so I'm not surprised that they ran for the cash.
To be successful, Monahan and company needed Augusta National and the USGA to stand with them against LIV, which didn't really happen. Ultimately, there will be a settlement, and the two sides will be joined again.
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Most of the LIV players are over the hill. The exceptions:
DJ--I don't think he even likes golf that much, he just likes what golf has gotten him. If he can get those $$$ without playing or practicing, and can spend more time on his boat and with his wife, he's happy to do that.
Koepka--Based on the Netflix show, he really thought his career was in jeopardy due to injuries, and wanted the guaranteed money to protect his family. If he knew he was going to get well, he wouldn't have left the PGA Tour.
Cam Smith--By going to LIV, he can play more overseas, particularly in Asia, and spend more time at home in Australia, and less time in the US.
Rahm--Maybe he'll relocate back to Spain, and spend less time here, similar to Smith.
DeChambeau--Also lost in the PGA Tour wilderness due to injury from his fascination with muscle and distance. His situation, IMHO, was similar to Koepka's.
How do you define "over the hill"?
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How do you define "over the hill"?
See:
Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago. That's what "over the hill" means.
Some of the others never peaked.
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How do you define "over the hill"?
See:
Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago. That's what "over the hill" means.
Some of the others never peaked.
This reminds me of the GM in MAJOR LEAGUE when discussing the spring training invitees:
“Most of these guys never had a prime…”
Obviously several of these guys had a very good prime - but other than Rahm and Koepka nobody feels like a real loss at this point. Rahm clearly has buyers remorse looking at his not so subtle subtext in interviews.
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How do you define "over the hill"?
See:
Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago. That's what "over the hill" means.
Some of the others never peaked.
Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...
...ever seen any of them play?
Where do you slot them in?
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By little, if any, design of his own, his timing and ability to stay above the fray per the PGA Tour and its rampant greed and stupidity remains impeccable. From deal-making white knight to test pilot correctly pulling the eject button, Mr. Dunne's chess skills are unparalleled. Furthermore, he is a very generous good guy with a big heart who has left a trail of grateful beneficiaries and admirers.
I wouldn't be so sure:
https://twitter.com/desertdufferLLG/status/1790171313786765716 (https://twitter.com/desertdufferLLG/status/1790171313786765716)
Jimmy wanted to get his, too, and when he wasn't given control… he quit. He's possibly (likely?) as selfish here as anyone.
In cutting Jimmy out of the decision loop, the Tour has made a major mistake--and may well pay dearly for it!
Hmmmmm.
I don’t know Jimmy Dunne and have no reason to doubt his stature in the game of golf. Nor do I question his good spirit and generosity. But I did work at a few major wall street firms and the one Jimmy is associated with is not where the best and the brightest seek out of B school etc. If he is shrewd it’s because he saw opportunity working the small bank circuit that the street heavyweights largely ignored. Good for him. But as Tom Doak mentioned in his post above, the PIV/PGA announcement was rife with antitrust concerns. Jimmy and Ed should have realized that and sculpted a different framework. Unless, as this post references, they had ideas of running LIV. They certainly should have seen Congress’ resistance to Saudis virtually owning an American sports institution.
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Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...
...ever seen any of them play?
Where do you slot them in?
The "I don't care about them" slot.
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Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...
...ever seen any of them play?
Where do you slot them in?
The "I don't care about them" slot.
Says a lot...
...clears it up.
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Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.
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I think you are being way too cynical, Erik. Do you know him?
I do--and he is one of the most selfless, sincerely dedicated guys I know.
What reason do you base your conclusion on? Speculation or proof?
I can guarantee you the PGA Tour is going to miss him; his leaving sets back the reconciliation of the Tours, as several Players have said. I just hope not conclusively.
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Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.
This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.
That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement.
For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.
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I think most people assumed that by getting guaranteed money, a lot of the incentive to work at their game for the LIV players would be eliminated. I think it also was assumed that the loss of that incentive would also dull their games to the point where they wouldn't be competitive in the majors. Keopka's near win at last year's Masters and his PGA win disrupted that assumption. It also suggests Koepka wasn't kidding when he said in past interviews that he really doesn't care about the regular tournaments, only majors.
So far, he and DeChambeau have carried the LIV flag in the majors. Whether Rahm will lose his edge remains to be seen.
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Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.
This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.
That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement.
For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.
I don't think I painted Jimmy Dunne as any saint. I happen to know quite a few people who've spent a good part of their Wall Street careers working at Sandler, O'Neill under Jimmy. To a tee, each and every one would praise the man as a solid leader and decent guy who has always been eminently approachable. Like any senior Wall Street executive, I'm certain he's had his moments. A family friend has experienced him as a patron of Notre Dame and its golf team. They tell stories of his generosity and connection with some of the student athletes. A Saint, maybe not.....but a good, decent guy trying to do right by the game....I'll go with no less.
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The Saudis (and to a large extent Russia, too) are playing long-ball and seeking to be more diversified geographically and economically as they prepare for when, based on the new market demand in 10-20 years, oil crawls back to under $20/barrel and their music stops.
Phil was at the end of storied career and he got to flip the bird to the PGA as he lined his wallet in a spectacular, yet predictable, cash grab.
Norman was going to die on this hill regardless so he finally found deep pocket partners to consummate his revenge-fueled ultimate move over the PGA tour and a "EF You" to Tiger Woods.
Greed + Envy + Money + Spite = POWERful disruptive tailwinds.
But, can the LIV model be sustained?
Will new rising young stars find a home and a purpose there?
Or, will the PGA's new economic incentives now keep the troops loyal while this all plays out?
Unless LIV consistently finds new young talent every year to LIV-it-up with Phil, DJ, Brooksie and Jon, their "league" will be nothing but a bunch of formerly great players now "playing resort courses in shorts" with their friends intramurally.
Rahm's silly little presser yesterday all but revealed his deep buyer's remorse.
Let Poulter flap his pie-hole. He's irrelevant.
Let Phil chirp away his chip on his shoulder caused by Tiger's total dominance over him.
DJ....love him...he's a pure spirit and he did it so he could "make more by working less". Respect.
I dont know jimmy Dunne, but I dont think he makes or breaks golf in America.
Deep down I bet he despises the Saudis and wants to see them squirm. I'm hopeful that some media/private equity combo platter cleans this shit up with fresh billions of new capital in the next 1-2 years and that Jimmy Dunne brokered the whole thing.
Let this 54 hole, shotgun start, no cut, guarantee pay programming play out. It's only watched in Australia.
If new talent doesnt cross over to LIV, then it dies.
Outside of Rahmbo, who else of note has defected in the last year?
My point exactly.
I concur about LIV recruiting a continual crop of promising young players. However, that issue is more related to the utter sham that is the world golf rankings.
Ciao
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Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.
I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.
Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
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Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.
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I've tired of the whole LIV thing, let it be a separate tour
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Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.
I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.
Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
I've had friends killed by Afghans. I don't hate all Afghans.
One of my best friends is a Russian citizen. There are quite a few Russians I would refuse to sit with.
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Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.
Pretty deep MT. Thanks for the reminder.
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Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.
It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.
This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.
That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement.
For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.
I don't think I painted Jimmy Dunne as any saint. I happen to know quite a few people who've spent a good part of their Wall Street careers working at Sandler, O'Neill under Jimmy. To a tee, each and every one would praise the man as a solid leader and decent guy who has always been eminently approachable. Like any senior Wall Street executive, I'm certain he's had his moments. A family friend has experienced him as a patron of Notre Dame and its golf team. They tell stories of his generosity and connection with some of the student athletes. A Saint, maybe not.....but a good, decent guy trying to do right by the game....I'll go with no less.
The "Saint" observation was in no way directed toward you, apologies if it seemed as such.
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Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.
I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.
Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
My guess is he loves the game (don't think that's really up for discussion) and he felt that it was heading in a bad direction, so he offered up his help to try to steer it back in a better one. Someone at the PGA Tour was smart enough to realize that he could probably help so they said yes and off he went. Now the players, who, while very, very good at putting a small white ball in a small hole, are nevertheless not so good with business savvy and decided they don't want his help anymore, so he's gone.
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Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.
I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.
Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
My guess is...the players, who, while very, very good at putting a small white ball in a small hole, are nevertheless not so good with business savvy...
Mike,
How many players make as much/more money off the course as they do in competition?
Whether they joined LIV or hired an adept agent/team, I'd say they have greater business savvy than most-certainly more than you assume.
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Greater business savvy than Jimmy Dunne?
In this instance, from what I've read, they did hire an adept team, but then decided to get rid of them.
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Peter, don't you think the business savvy of most players is simply to hire the right agent?
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Peter,
I could be wrong, but I'd guess for the vast majority of these cases the players are either being paid to show up for a few photo Ops and junkets to press the flesh and be the face of something. Or getting in as an investor on the ground floor of a new venture as a "silent partner".
But day to say stuff? Negotiating deals? Creating detailed business plans and strategies? Much less trying to hammer out something complicated like the PIF/LIV merger? I'm not seeing it.
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Greater business savvy than Jimmy Dunne?
In this instance, from what I've read, they did hire an adept team, but then decided to get rid of them.
Are we sure that it was the players who wanted him out?
I suppose that's possible, if they don't really want a deal to get done. But possibly the guy who really doesn't want to see a deal done is the commissioner. The more "business" guys they have in on it, the more likely his tenure is done. Whereas some of the players seem to still be true believers in honor, country and the PGA TOUR. It's possible Jay has even spun it that Jimmy Dunne sold them out to the Saudis, not he.
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Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.
Pretty deep MT. Thanks for the reminder.
I would agree that actively hating someone can steal your energy... whether that person is aware of your feelings or not. If someone has given me enough reason to actively dislike them - or more important - not to trust them any more, I simply cut that person out of my life. I saw my father do it to his best friend and business partner of 25 years and he never regretted it for a single day.
As far all that relates to the Saudi's, MBS was a teenager when 9/11 happened, so while no-one can hold him accountable for that, his relatives were funneling money to Al Qaeda-linked charities in the 1990/2000s... all while Prince Bandar was in D.C. whispering sweet nothings in the Bush Family's ear on what good friends they were.
I wouldn't trust them as far as you could throw them.
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Greater business savvy than Jimmy Dunne?
In this instance, from what I've read, they did hire an adept team, but then decided to get rid of them.
Are we sure that it was the players who wanted him out?
I suppose that's possible, if they don't really want a deal to get done. But possibly the guy who really doesn't want to see a deal done is the commissioner. The more "business" guys they have in on it, the more likely his tenure is done. Whereas some of the players seem to still be true believers in honor, country and the PGA TOUR. It's possible Jay has even spun it that Jimmy Dunne sold them out to the Saudis, not he.
Nope. I don't know who wanted him out. I read something somewhere that said that he was brought in when the players were less than half of the board (or whatever it is). When the players became more than half, that was when he left it. I don't remember where I read it and it's quite possible that either the facts or the inference made by the author are wrong.
Everything else you say is certainly possible. I don't have any insider info or anything like that. Just what I read and what seems to make sense to me.
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Peter, don't you think the business savvy of most players is simply to hire the right agent?
Peter,
I could be wrong, but I'd guess for the vast majority of these cases the players are either being paid to show up for a few photo Ops and junkets to press the flesh and be the face of something. Or getting in as an investor on the ground floor of a new venture as a "silent partner".
But day to say stuff? Negotiating deals? Creating detailed business plans and strategies? Much less trying to hammer out something complicated like the PIF/LIV merger? I'm not seeing it.
Jim. Kalen, Michael,
That was the point of my post. I assume the players play and let the "experts"-ones they chose to align with-handle things outside the ropes.
Focus on what you do best and trust the best around you to enhance that.
That's pretty savvy.
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Peter, don't you think the business savvy of most players is simply to hire the right agent?
Peter,
I could be wrong, but I'd guess for the vast majority of these cases the players are either being paid to show up for a few photo Ops and junkets to press the flesh and be the face of something. Or getting in as an investor on the ground floor of a new venture as a "silent partner".
But day to say stuff? Negotiating deals? Creating detailed business plans and strategies? Much less trying to hammer out something complicated like the PIF/LIV merger? I'm not seeing it.
Jim. Kalen, Michael,
That was the point of my post. I assume the players play and let the "experts"-ones they chose to align with-handle things outside the ropes.
Focus on what you do best and trust the best around you to enhance that.
That's pretty savvy.
The opposite of what you describe is what is actually taking place.
Good recap here:
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lucas-glover-radio-show-pga-tour-policy-board-comments-jimmy-dunne (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lucas-glover-radio-show-pga-tour-policy-board-comments-jimmy-dunne)
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Interesting comments from Glover.
Can’t say I agree with him and here’s why. Firstly exalting Jay Monahan as some sort of business guru is bizarre given it was his ineptitude that lead to the opportunity for LIV to happen. As to Jimmy Dunne, apparently he was the architect of the framework agreement with the Saudi’s that has run in to all sorts of regulatory issues from what I gather. I also gather that many of these issues were readily foreseeable. Now Dunne might have some cunning plan to get round these issues but at the same time he should be held to account by the “shareholders” and have to explain himself.
That brings me round to my main point, who are the shareholders ? At the outset of this whole episode Monahan made great play of the PGA Tour being the players tour even though it was evident that it hadn’t exactly been run for their benefit previously. So if the players are the “shareholders” then why shouldn’t they hold sway on the tour board ? That doesn’t mean they make the day to day business decisions or formulate business plans but surely it is perfectly reasonable that they sign off on major strategic decisions ?
Niall
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Well, the proverbial next (other) shoe just dropped.
Mark Flaherty, business-oriented independent director and current board member at Goldman Sachs just announced his resignation from the PGA Tour policy board. Jeez...think there is any frustration from the business guys with the Tour? First Randall Stephenson, then Rory (who is business savvy), then the consummate relationship guy, Jimmy Dunne and now Mark Flaherty. These guys are way too bright to remain aboard a dysfunctional ship led by an inept captain.
Anyone want to give me odds on when Ed Herlihy and Mary Meeker pull their ripcords and snap open their chutes?
Good sources tell me the Cantlay & Woods coup there is a clown show. The reality is that players are used to listening to their agents and business managers, whose sole agenda is to maximize the aggregate take without damaging their Q factors. A Tour led by players, their agents and personal business managers and run by a myopic man who lacked the vision to read the competitive tea leaves is a recipe for disaster. Entertaining for those of us who see it as such, but a disaster nontheless. Warming up the popcorn here!
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Wow, Rory business savvy !
A pleasant media friendly guy and a very good golfer but savvy ? I tend to think that his agent has been doing the heavy lifting in terms of his business decisions.
Niall
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Wow, Rory business savvy !
A pleasant media friendly guy and a very good golfer but savvy ? I tend to think that his agent has been doing the heavy lifting in terms of his business decisions.
Niall
Niall,
Rory is certainly business savvy relative and comparatively to his peers. He's spent considerable time with several colleagues and they all agree he's a bright guy about the business of golf. He is a partner in a lifestyle-oriented VC firm and dials into the super-majority of the firm's calls.
Do remember one thing: Most pro golfers have quite a low bar for advanced education and non-golf related intelligence. I'd maintain Rory is further up that ladder than most.
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Wow, Rory business savvy!
See, Niall, we agree sometimes! :)
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Wow, Rory business savvy !
A pleasant media friendly guy and a very good golfer but savvy ? I tend to think that his agent has been doing the heavy lifting in terms of his business decisions.
Niall
Niall,
Rory is certainly business savvy relative and comparatively to his peers. He's spent considerable time with several colleagues and they all agree he's a bright guy about the business of golf. He is a partner in a lifestyle-oriented VC firm and dials into the super-majority of the firm's calls.
Do remember one thing: Most pro golfers have quite a low bar for advanced education and non-golf related intelligence. I'd maintain Rory is further up that ladder than most.
I hope he is savvy enough to have had a prenup.
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I wonder if Jimmie will change his mind on doing biz with the Saudis in light of this. Full disclosure, one of the authors is a friend and Princeton classmate. He also was the senior NSA director for the Middle East and Northern Africa for Obama. They had a hard time getting the Saudis to help fight Al Qaeda. Perhaps we now know why.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240522-saudi-involvement-extensive-in-9-11-terror-attacks-suggests-new-evidence/ (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240522-saudi-involvement-extensive-in-9-11-terror-attacks-suggests-new-evidence/)