Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ted Sturges on October 12, 2023, 03:17:14 PM
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I was fortunate enough to get to play a preview round at Sedge Valley last Sunday. I believe it was the first day that all 18 holes were open for play. What a treat! Sedge Valley is the newest course at Sand Valley and is a par 68, 6,200 yard course. It is like building a fun playground for golfers. We've all played the grueling long and boring courses in our time, and Sedge is the exact opposite of that. The course has great green complexes, is thoughtfully bunkered, has plenty of room to play, which all spells FUN. To me, it's the absolute perfect course for a quick 18 after lunch (and after a morning round at one of the other courses at this resort). There should be more golf courses like this in the world.
Favorite holes:
3 (fun tee shot and a really cool blind second shot up a hill to a well placed green)
5-8 (this was my favorite section of the course. 5 is a short par 3, followed by a drivable par 4, then two more par 3's). Fun golf!
12 (super cool short par 4 with an amazing green)
16 (my favorite hole on the course...an uphill par 4 with a huge fairway and a central bunker which must be avoided)
17 (another great two shot hole...a downhill par 4 with a great green complex guarded by several well-placed bunkers)
I think Sedge Valley opens up next spring. Everyone needs to see this course (and The Lido too!).
TS
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A question (maybe for Tom): How many acres does the course sit on?
6,200 yards at par-68 still feels like meaty golf with plenty of two-shotters over 400 yards. But if Tom has also dialled back the scale / width of the landscape, it could feel completely different, more like an old school English course in size rather than a massive modern. More compact?
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Sounds splendid.
Some photos would be nice.
Atb
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Hard to do photos here.
If you engage in Instagram, it's all over #TheGram
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A question (maybe for Tom): How many acres does the course sit on?
6,200 yards at par-68 still feels like meaty golf with plenty of two-shotters over 400 yards. But if Tom has also dialled back the scale / width of the landscape, it could feel completely different, more like an old school English course in size rather than a massive modern. More compact?
Ally:
I don't know the total acreage but it is very spread out in between holes [even though the tee to green walks are mostly very close]. The middle portion of the property is quite rolling and previous architects who looked at it had trouble trying to find a routing for a "big" 18 holes. The smaller scorecard gave me more leeway to route holes and avoid the difficult bits.
I don't think it would qualify as a "massive modern" but it is closer to that than compact.
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A question (maybe for Tom): How many acres does the course sit on?
6,200 yards at par-68 still feels like meaty golf with plenty of two-shotters over 400 yards. But if Tom has also dialled back the scale / width of the landscape, it could feel completely different, more like an old school English course in size rather than a massive modern. More compact?
Ally:
I don't know the total acreage but it is very spread out in between holes [even though the tee to green walks are mostly very close]. The middle portion of the property is quite rolling and previous architects who looked at it had trouble trying to find a routing for a "big" 18 holes. The smaller scorecard gave me more leeway to route holes and avoid the difficult bits.
I don't think it would qualify as a "massive modern" but it is closer to that than compact.
Sounds a bit like Cleeve Hill. The course is spread through a large acerage, but the course itself is not big.
Ciao
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I played the 12 hole preview loop at the end of September. Sedge Valley is going to be a gorgeous golf course once it's fully grown in. The par 3's really stood out to me as being varied and exciting. I look forward to getting back there next year to see all 18 holes.
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I was fortunate enough to go around Sedge Valley twice last weekend.
The course was a little different from what I expected going in. I thought it would be more intimate and compact, but it was WIDE. However where you hit it off the tee does matter a lot. The green complexes reward accurate play, and most holes also have at least place that must (but can) be avoided. Lots of ways to get it around the course and anyone can play it, yet good scoring will require solid play. I thought it was extremely fun. I loved all of the textures and the detail work was outstanding.
This may end up being the most popular course at Sand Valley and could change expectations around what a modern course can be. Hopefully some even shorter courses will follow. Very impressive.
More comments later. Maybe even a few more photos. Here's the 16th.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53262957091_89a2cc9eff_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Ezup)IMG_1904 sedge16 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Ezup) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
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John,
Your review actually is a bit of a let down. My understanding is that Sedge Valley is based on Colt's Least Bad Course. Swinley Forest is a favorite, but it is not "compact" but it definitely is not "Wide".
Ira
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John,
Your review actually is a bit of a let down. My understanding is that Sedge Valley is based on Colt's Least Bad Course. Swinley Forest is a favorite, but it is not "compact" but it definitely is not "Wide".
I don't think Sedge Valley is exceptionally wide - especially as compared to Mammoth Dunes - but for sure Harry Colt did not have to answer to Michael Keiser as his client. Their standard for "playable" - especially if you're trying to leave the native stuff native, instead of turning it all to sand - is very wide. But it's been a popular formula, so they can afford it! [Especially with fescue fairways.]
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The width isn't available to everybody.
I was given a line, from the most authoritative source possible, on the 12th hole and hit it about 30 yards longer than he was expecting. I found a spot of bother.
Ran out of room rather quickly there. Would have needed to shift my aim to put the dispersion pattern on the green, which makes for a much tighter target.
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John,
Your review actually is a bit of a let down. My understanding is that Sedge Valley is based on Colt's Least Bad Course. Swinley Forest is a favorite, but it is not "compact" but it definitely is not "Wide".
Ira
Ira,
Please read all that I wrote again. I thought the course was terrific.
You can get a sense of the width that from the picture that I posted. It's not narrow, but it's definitely not Mammoth Dunes wide.. Importantly, if you hit in a safe spot or miss wide, being in the fairway does not mean you are in good shape. People will play this course, think about how many fairways they hit and be surprised that they didn't score better. Play should be faster than the other courses and I think it's way more fun than the far easier Mammoth Dunes. You get to use your head but you aren't being beat up constantly.
As Kyle points out, the course may be less friendly the farther you hit the ball. Sadly, my skill level didn't let me discover that.
There's nothing disappointing about Sedge Valley. I expected it to be more compact, but not sure I would change anything about it. Go and see for yourself.
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John,
Your review actually is a bit of a let down. My understanding is that Sedge Valley is based on Colt's Least Bad Course. Swinley Forest is a favorite, but it is not "compact" but it definitely is not "Wide".
Ira
Ira,
Please read all that I wrote again. I thought the course was terrific.
You can get a sense of the width that from the picture that I posted. It's not narrow, but it's definitely not Mammoth Dunes wide.. Importantly, if you hit in a safe spot or miss wide, being in the fairway does not mean you are in good shape. People will play this course, think about how many fairways they hit and be surprised that they didn't score better. Play should be faster than the other courses and I think it's way more fun than the far easier Mammoth Dunes. You get to use your head but you aren't being beat up constantly.
As Kyle points out, the course may be less friendly the farther you hit the ball. Sadly, my skill level didn't let me discover that.
There's nothing disappointing about Sedge Valley. I expected it to be more compact, but not sure I would change anything about it. Go and see for yourself.
Not to sidetrack the thread to Lido but I had a similar issue with some of the marker stones on The Lido.
It was difficult the first time around to follow those lines.
Subsequent plays I was able to alter the line and found myself in much better positions.
The only marker stone that made sense for my game was on the wonderful Cape 5th.
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Sedge is wider than I expected, but I suspect that will be a common first impression. I don't think the width is wasted, though, and as Tom said, it is not Mammoth Dunes wide, which is wide just to be accommodating and for no other reason.
I hit shots on all 18 holes at Sedge before the Renaissance Cup and wrote about the golf course with some first looks in photography (I think):
https://beyondthecontour.com/early-thoughts-from-a-not-so-early-visit-to-sedge-valley/
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Sedge is wider than I expected, but I suspect that will be a common first impression. I don't think the width is wasted, though, and as Tom said, it is not Mammoth Dunes wide, which is wide just to be accommodating and for no other reason.
I hit shots on all 18 holes at Sedge before the Renaissance Cup and wrote about the golf course with some first looks in photography (I think):
https://beyondthecontour.com/early-thoughts-from-a-not-so-early-visit-to-sedge-valley/ (https://beyondthecontour.com/early-thoughts-from-a-not-so-early-visit-to-sedge-valley/)
Drew:
I'd only seen your brief Instagram piece and not the full write-up, but thanks for the link. I think you have done a good job of explaining what we were trying to build: "the anti-Mammoth Dunes".
The one thing I'd correct you on is how you translate the scorecard. Personally, I've always figured that every stroke off par adds 150 yards to the scorecard, not 100 . . . the USGA slope system actually allots 175 yards for each stroke in the course rating. So Sedge Valley at 6150 par 68 from the back should play like 6750 or 6850 from the tips, and like 6300 from the normal tees.
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I've heard several comments about width at Sedge Valley and I agree that it is really wide. However, similar to Royal Melbourne, the effective width on many of the holes is rather narrow. The genius at Sedge is that the proper corridor may not be on the edges. As an example, the proper angle to attack the sixth is from a corridor in the left-center of the fairway. To me this is cool, unique and wonderful.
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Sedge is wider than I expected, but I suspect that will be a common first impression. I don't think the width is wasted, though, and as Tom said, it is not Mammoth Dunes wide, which is wide just to be accommodating and for no other reason.
I hit shots on all 18 holes at Sedge before the Renaissance Cup and wrote about the golf course with some first looks in photography (I think):
https://beyondthecontour.com/early-thoughts-from-a-not-so-early-visit-to-sedge-valley/ (https://beyondthecontour.com/early-thoughts-from-a-not-so-early-visit-to-sedge-valley/)
Drew:
I'd only seen your brief Instagram piece and not the full write-up, but thanks for the link. I think you have done a good job of explaining what we were trying to build: "the anti-Mammoth Dunes".
The one thing I'd correct you on is how you translate the scorecard. Personally, I've always figured that every stroke off par adds 150 yards to the scorecard, not 100 . . . the USGA slope system actually allots 175 yards for each stroke in the course rating. So Sedge Valley at 6150 par 68 from the back should play like 6750 or 6850 from the tips, and like 6300 from the normal tees.
This is good to know. I wasn't exactly sure what the conversion was, I just figured if I turned two long par 3's into shorter par 4's and two par 4's into par 5's = 400 yards. I didn't know there was an actual adjustment, and 67/6850 from the tips makes a lot more sense as I felt it played long. Appreciate the response
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Some very smart people have reached out to tell me about Lido, and I’m sure it’s everything they say it is.
But I can’t help but be more excited about Sedge Valley. I have been very interested in photos and information about West Sussex (Pulborough) for some time now. I get an unusual sense of large scale in an intimate setting. I can’t explain why but it’s fascinating. Maybe someone else can help me formulate the *why* behind this feeling. Sedge seems to garner a similar feeling among those that have seen it so far.
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The corridors at Sedge Valley don't look that much like the London heathland courses of today, but that's largely due to the amount of trees on those classic courses. Old photos do provide a similar vibe.
Doak did a great job in building something that pays homage to what makes those courses special, but no one should expect to be transported to Surrey. Wisconsin is just fine.
A few more photos. The 3rd has a daunting approach over an intimidating bunker, but you can play away from it and utilize a hillside to deflect you shot towards the green. Viewed from the right side, note how much room there is between the bunker (out of sight at the left side of the photo) and the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53265577311_4eca60f3dc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9U1oB)IMG_1846 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9U1oB) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53266052055_24807c87db_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9WrvR)IMG_1850 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9WrvR) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
For some reason, the 5th green site reminded be a bit of the 2nd at Prairie Dunes. Not nearly as uphill, and this green is severe in a different way. Shallow with a trough running mostly in the direction of play through the center of the green. The par 3s were varied and clever.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53266051955_76d037537a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wru8)IMG_1856 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wru8) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
The gorgeous 15th, with a slope from left to right that let the conservative (and wise) try to get near right side hole locations without flirting with the nasty bunker.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53265577286_c8f78d0469_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9U1ob)IMG_1901 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9U1ob) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
What a finishing hole. Sedge Valley has severally short but challenging par 4s, and the 18th provides temptation for all. It's a pretty easy hole if you hit something about 180 yards short of the bunker on the lower level and then then wedge it on. But it's so much more fun to try to hit it up top and have a look at the hole. That's a big hill to carry and the nearer the green you go, the greater the risk of being stuck on the hillside which is probably worse than the massive bunker.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53265938089_0c0dc59f52_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9VRCV)IMG_1912 sedge18 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9VRCV) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
Getting on the top shelf could yield a touch short approach thanks to the rumpled ground. I loved this lack of a clear reward.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53266052095_6fea8012b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wrwx)IMG_1915 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wrwx) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
The boomerang green from behind, with a slope that will mess with "easy" wedge shots from down below.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53264691602_9919f94351_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Pt6L)IMG_1919 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Pt6L) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
I can't wait to get back there.
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From the Sand Valley website, it appears that the green fees for Sedge Valley are the same as for the SV and MD. I think it makes sense. It treats the course as a sister course of the other two. I just wonder if players will see it that way and balk at paying full freight for a par 68.
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From the Sand Valley website, it appears that the green fees for Sedge Valley are the same as for the SV and MD. I think it makes sense. It treats the course as a sister course of the other two. I just wonder if players will see it that way and balk at paying full freight for a par 68.
For most of us, I think the number of shots taken will be lower on Mammoth Dunes than Sedge Valley.......
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John, that might be true. Yet, I wonder how much education needs to happen before most players don't think of Sedge Valley as a lesser course. I applaud what Sand Valley has done and hope that more courses of such length are built for various reasons. After I played Rye, a friend from the states saw the par and asked if it were an "executive" course. Yikes, it is one of the most difficult courses I've ever played.
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What a finishing hole. Sedge Valley has severally short but challenging par 4s, and the 18th provides temptation for all. It's a pretty easy hole if you hit something about 180 yards short of the bunker on the lower level and then then wedge it on. But it's so much more fun to try to hit it up top and have a look at the hole. That's a big hill to carry and the nearer the green you go, the greater the risk of being stuck on the hillside which is probably worse than the massive bunker.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53265938089_0c0dc59f52_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9VRCV)IMG_1912 sedge18 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9VRCV) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
Getting on the top shelf could yield a touch short approach thanks to the rumpled ground. I loved this lack of a clear reward.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53266052095_6fea8012b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wrwx)IMG_1915 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Wrwx) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
The boomerang green from behind, with a slope that will mess with "easy" wedge shots from down below.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53264691602_9919f94351_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Pt6L)IMG_1919 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9Pt6L) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
I can't wait to get back there.
I thought the 18th was arguably the best hole on the property not including Lido.
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John,
It looks awesome. I am playing Lido and Sedge on the same day in late July. Tees times are set. Should be in for an awesome day.
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To: Joel
I'm fascinated by your love for the 18th at SV (for me, there were several holes I liked better at SV). What about that hole made you love it so much?
THX,
TS
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To: Joel
I'm fascinated by your love for the 18th at SV (for me, there were several holes I liked better at SV). What about that hole made you love it so much?
THX,
TS
Multiple options off the tee, a short blind second shot and a really unique green.
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Sedge Valley might be the perfect compliment to the other golf courses. I am still not super fond of the name, but it’s growing on me.
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I played Sedge Valley on Sunday and absolutely loved it. Mammoth may be easier, but I played Thursday pretty much right out of the car, and kind of fell apart toward the end. On the other hand, I played Sedge after playing 81 holes with hickories between Thursday afternoon through Saturday, and the transition back to modern (if 2007 can be considered modern) made Sedge play MUCH easier. I really liked the way the holes just draped over the land. There is width, but it can be deceptive. Three of us hit balls that looked like they were down the middle on the second, and we all ended up in various spots of bother off to the right. And while we all knew that it was just overall shorter version of a standard course, the yardage plays with your mindset to the point that a 460 yard par 4 into the wind at 3 is a real slap in the face, in a great way. My subconscious told me that it should be easy, and while I can sometimes be intimidated by new courses, that helped make me play it like it was easy for the first seven holes until some bogeys around the turn forced me to kick it back into gear. I almost feel like it would get harder the next time I play it.
After three days playing and walking through a lot of sand, the large expanses of grassy native were a wonderful change of pace. The greens felt much more intimate than at Mammoth or Lido, but I still walked away thinking about how different the course could play with different pins. We had a back right pin on 15, and that looks like it would make it an entirely different hole than with a front left pin. 9, 12, 14, and 18 are other holes that immediately come to mind where a different pin could make if feel like a different course on back to back days. Whereas Mammoth and Lido have plenty of places to put pins in different places on their greens, Sedge felt like it had the ability to put pins in not just different, but unique locations.
And I mean this with the best of intentions, so I hope Tom doesn't take it the wrong way, but it felt a lot like Kingsley to me. I don't mean that it was at all influenced by Kingsley, but given that I play more of my golf at Kingsley than anywhere else, Sedge felt like a place I had been before, and asked for shots that I had played before. The tee shot on 15 to the back right pin felt comfortable (which doesn't mean easy) because it wasn't unlike shots I've played into multiple holes at Kingsley (1, 4, 5, 12, 16). I hit a perfect five iron well left of the flag that flew past pin high, caught the back slope, and made its way back to about 12 feet (missed the putt).
12 is a marvelous short par four that set up perfectly for my middling length. My driver cut beautifully to the front of the green, and there was a moment of excitement when it disappeared, due to a devilish swale that none of us knew was there, until it reappeared about 15 feet from the hole (missed that putt, too). Two others in our group longer than me couldn't dial it back, ran it over the green on the tips of the 13th tee.
I didn't play great at Mammoth and would love another shot at it, but I were there all the time, I'd rather play Sedge much more often.
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Bill:
Your review helped clarify something for me in the difference between my approach to design vs David Kidd’s.
People use the terms ‘hard’ and ‘easy’ a lot, but their use is mostly geared to individual expectations and to their own games.
Both Sedge Valley and Mammoth Dunes offer the possibility of a very low score - Mammoth because it’s very forgiving, Sedge because you are starting at 68 and there are certainly some birdie opportunities. But to me, the difference is that Sedge Valley makes you earn that low score - a really bad shot will lead to bogey or worse, even on some of the shortest holes. You might catch a break and get away with a mistake, but that next shot is probably going to have to be a very good one.
I just don’t have that same sense with Mammoth Dunes - the scale is so big that even a bad drive frequently results in an easy approach, especially for longer hitters. And I get why lots of people enjoy that. But it’s just not how I was raised :D ;)
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Can't wait to see Lido and Sedge.
Can specific hole locations on Mammoth take away the advantage of the easy approach as mentioned above?
I found that the added width was part of the temptation factor, that made Mammoth great. You rear back for a big drive and hit a sh!t one. You make bogey or double and say I'll get it back on the next hole. You rear back and rinse/repeat and now you have two big numbers, and I ain't talking drive yardage. I would guess that Sedge is the perfect counterpoint to Mammoth. That's one thing that separates SV from Bandon. There are no opposite courses at Bandon, but I get the sense that either Lido or Mammoth could be considered the polar opposite of Sedge.
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There are no opposite courses at Bandon, but I get the sense that either Lido or Mammoth could be considered the polar opposite of Sedge.
I don’t think Lido is opposite to Sedge Valley - there’s a lot more room to play, but you pay a price for getting out of position. Sedge Valley is very much a reaction to Mammoth Dunes (and Streamsong Black and Landmand and whatever), if not quite an opposite.
But, Pacific Dunes was also a reaction to Bandon Dunes; the only difference is that Michael Keiser is less settled in his musts than his dad was.
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But to me, the difference is that Sedge Valley makes you earn that low score - a really bad shot will lead to bogey or worse, even on some of the shortest holes. You might catch a break and get away with a mistake, but that next shot is probably going to have to be a very good one.
I just don’t have that same sense with Mammoth Dunes - the scale is so big that even a bad drive frequently results in an easy approach, especially for longer hitters. And I get why lots of people enjoy that. But it’s just not how I was raised :D ;)
I felt like the recovery options at Sedge weren't terrible, but I hit the ball pretty well. But agree that usually a bad shot was going to result in a bogey. The nice thing about sprinkling in some short 3s and 4s is that you have chances to turn things around. My worst stretch was 8-11, with a few bad drives, bad long irons, a bad short iron, and 3 bogeys on 8, 9, and 10. But I made par from bad drive on 11, and birdied the short holes at 12 and 13 to right the ship. The only place I saw that was really brutal was the big bunker behind 17 (but I'm sure there are others). Two guys from our group went into fairway bunkers, and hit their seconds into that deep bunker trying to play to a back pin on a pretty big back to front sloping green, and I'm not sure either finished the hole. My approach wasn't quite as bad, over the green, but not in the bunker. A really good pitch still ran about 12-15 feet by, but made the come-backer for par.
The only place at Mammoth that really looked scary was the bricks bunker on 7, and somehow I got up and down from about 45 yards there.
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I had a chance to play Mammoth in June, but Sedge Valley was not open so I can't offer a comparison. I found Mammoth to be wide and forgiving, but not quite as easy as I'd heard. The slopes don't universally help and I certainly felt that bad drives had poorer angles/views in most cases. You often ended up in the fairway, but over time poor shots would be marginally punished.
There used to be a quote I saw on GCA that said something to the effect of good shots are rewarded over many rounds by creating slight advantages over average shots. I felt this was true of Mammoth.
Mammoth is rated very easy. Probably too easy as no one in our group even sniffed shooting their index. The raw scores were certainly good, but I didn't feel the course played as easy as rated or advertised.
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This green complex at Sedge reminds me of a similar green (7th I think!) at Crystal Downs, but it's opposite at Sedge. Playing Sedge next Tuesday! Lido right after.
(https://i.ibb.co/sRfjfdK/53264691602-9919f94351-c.jpg)
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/53264691602/)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZML7051/IMG-2860.jpg)
(https://postimg.cc/QKcFkbJx)
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/53264691602/)
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Richard,
Thanks for posting those pictures. Along with Te Arai North, Sedge Valley is the course I would most like to see and play.
Tim
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I played Sedge Valley yesterday (and in brutal humidity) and loved it. Did NOT love the humidity. Way better than Mammoth Dunes and Sand Valley in my opinion. Loved it Tom! Here are a few pics. And, I thought the width was just fine. Sedge felt like a real golf course, whereas, SV and Mammoth felt "tricked up".
(https://i.ibb.co/ss8XdqH/IMG-3708-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44h0npd)
(https://i.ibb.co/SRRkYy6/IMG-3712-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ggzVhF)
(https://i.ibb.co/27qy7Rd/IMG-3713-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3y17yVc)
(https://i.ibb.co/VD45cXf/IMG-3722-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/925SkRQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Sw51PH9/IMG-3737-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hGz6Cf)
(https://i.ibb.co/n0sQg25/IMG-3741-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ZRDnhf)
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Richard, I too played Sedge Valley yesterday - it was hotter than a pair of jumper cables at a Skynyrd concert. I played Lido the previous day. I’m still sorting both courses out. I enjoyed both greatly but didn’t “love” either. I fear my architectural acumen, however modest, is waning these days. More on Lido later.
As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution. Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes. Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.
I’ll say this: I have never played off turf as good as Lido and Sedge Valley. Perfection.
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As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution. Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes. Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.
I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.
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As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution. Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes. Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.
I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.
Interesting, and I am trying to think whether Michael is right.
Partly it depends on where you are driving the ball.
The holes that DO have uphill approaches are 1, 3, 14, and 16.
On many of the others, if you hit a good tee shot you're pretty level with the green, but if you pull it left on 2, or fan one right on 4 [or 6], or hit it over the plateau on 10, or hit a short tee shot on 12, or go left on 18, all of those approach shots become uphill. I've never really thought about it like that.
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I just played there two weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.
Mike is right, save for a few downhillers and knob-to-knobs, there is a preponderance of uphill holes. None were so severe as to feel ominous nor sequenced to feel repetitive. I'm not sure the property would've yielded so many good holes if Tom had not taken strong advantage of the gently heaving terrain.
If, as Tom has been quoted, his routing was predicated on finding the ideal green sites first, it makes perfect sense. What makes Sedge more fun than all but the Sandbox is it's intimacy and unforced playing corridors. It's varied green complexes were alway interesting and reflective of instilling a high strategic value on every approach. Misses and the accompanying recovery shots were uniquely different throughout the 18. It had a sporty, high energy nature that Lido lacked. For me, it felt like a golf course I'd want to have a quick bite and go out and play it again. That's always the ultimate compliment.
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John, no doubt the heat amplified the uphill terrain. In addition to the uphill holes Tom cited, I might add 11, 12 and 18 (hopefully remembered correctly). Also, there's a climb out of the valley on the knob-to-knob short holes: 5, 7, and 15. Finally, there are a few climbs to the next tee after holes 3, 6, 8 and 15.
All that said, my previous post was more observation than criticism. At the age of 66 I carry more than a few extra pounds so I'm hardly a legitimate straw man.
Hope you're well.
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Mike,
Even with my flawed memory, I can confirm that 18 is most definitely uphill!
I've seen others talk about it being a lot of climbing and a tough walk. Perhaps it is, but I never perceived it. With firm turf, slightly uphill shots don't trouble me nearly as much as a course that's soft, so that probably impacted my impressions.
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That’s interesting, I recently played Sedge and during the round never felt like there were a lot of uphill holes / shots. Now that I think back I can understand that feedback, but I think it’s more subtle / gradual rather than significant changes in elevation, with a few exceptions (ie, I was right on 2 and the second was uphill by a lot, I played short on 18 and the second there was also uphill).
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I guess it would be fair to say there is a fair amount of up-and-down at Sedge. I don't know that there is any more of it than at Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes, and they are both 1000 yards longer, so it surprises me that the walk at Sedge is deemed different . . . or maybe it's not, Mike didn't say about the other two. Lido, obviously, is very flat by its nature.
I have never understood people's bias against "uphill holes". Many of the great holes in the world are uphill. And as far as walking goes, what goes up must come down, and vice versa . . . unless I come up with a routing like Dismal River [which y'all also didn't like].
The point that several of the shorter holes play over a big dip that you have to walk through [even if you land level with the tee] is indeed true. But I will say that Mike's assertion that there is a dominance of uphill holes and lots of uphill green-to-tee walks does not quite add up . . . they have to even out.
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Note that I said I “felt” like” I’d played an abundance of uphill holes. I didn’t cool off walking downhill. ;)
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I was fortunate to play Lido and Sedge Friday and would echo the comments regarding turf quality. This is further amplified by the fact that the area received ~ 5 inches of rain the afternoon before and you would never have known. Both were enjoyable for different reasons but Sedge gets the nod in my book for playability and variety of holes, which still allows for driver on most non-Par 3s. Reminded me a bit of Pinehurst 3 in that you can hit driver but you still need to be sharp with short irons and around the greens to score. Would echo the sentiment of the 5-8 stretch as being most memorable but I also thought the finishing stretch was equally as good.
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Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time? Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron. At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with a 4-hybrid into the punch bowl.
I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often - 4 times at Lido alone.
Note to others - long at Lido is death.
That said the small bunker behind the 2nd green at Sedge is an absolute gem.
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Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time? Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron. At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with a 4-hybrid over the Alps.
I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often.
Note to others - long at Lido is death.
That said the small bunker behind the 2nd green at Sedge is an absolute gem.
I am also curious about this. The Lido was presumably designed with greens stimping about 6, but at the new course, they are fast as lightening. When I was there recently, I just kind of shook my head at this contradiction. And, of course, every member I spoke with about it thought I was crazy, which is to be expected. I absolutely loved the course, this just stuck out for me.
Nearly every hole has a way to run the ball up to the green (save for channel, alps, punchbowl, short), which is ideal for low spinning irons, yet actually using these run ups was extremely risky because using them might just as well run the ball right off the back.
I just feel like there is an inherent conflict between the design for modern launch angles/spin rates and modern green speeds, but it seems very exaggerated when placed on an older design. I'm not sure how to square it, but I think it's there.
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Firm greens like those found at Lido are a clear example of how OEMs have forsaken millions of golfers by failing to offer golf balls that spin enough.
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Tom, will the greens at Sedge Valley and Lido soften over time? Somehow I got 25 extra yards uphill at Sedge’s 16th with an 8-iron. At Lido my best/pure shots at the Eden and Short trickled forever until disappearing over the back of those greens. Same thing happened with a 4-hybrid into the punch bowl.
I don’t mean to insinuate that I deserved better given my slow swing speed and low spin ball but it is rare for me to go long so often - 4 times at Lido alone.
Mike:
Yes, Lido is very fast and firm, and all those who say they love such conditions should be careful what they wish for! I've yet to play Sedge this year so I can't comment on it.
They will almost inevitably soften over time, once a bit of thatch builds up underneath the turf. About the only one of my courses that has maintained its exceptional firmness 5+ years into play is The Loop . . . the ball still runs onto greens and off the back of greens there.
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Tom, would you say Ballyneal has retained it's firmness over time? I've been going there since nearly the beginning and feel it's still very firm and fast, especially in the fall.
I played Sedge Valley in July and it's my favorite of the four courses at the resort. The fun factor is off the charts.
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About the only one of my courses that has maintained its exceptional firmness 5+ years into play is The Loop . . . the ball still runs onto greens and off the back of greens there.
Tom, would you say Ballyneal has retained it's firmness over time? I've been going there since nearly the beginning and feel it's still very firm and fast, especially in the fall.
Jim:
Unfortunately, I don't get back to some places as much as I'd like, but you were right to correct me.
The Loop is crazy firm and fast, unlike anything else in my part of the country, and I had just come off it the other day. But, places like Ballyneal, The National [Australia], and The Renaissance Club have kept the firmness and speed in their fairways over time, too. It's just more of the norm in those places.
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Now that’s a true minimalist post.
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Now that’s a true minimalist post.
Thanks for pointing out the sizing error. I still don't understand what causes them sometimes.
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I've been following the comments and am specifically interested in the elevation perceptions. I went to Google Earth and took 3 measurements per hole:
1) Elevation of the middle tee where most might play from (as best as I could determine)
2) The lowest point found nearest the middle of the fairway between tee and green that would typically be walked. This may not necessarily be where one plays their approach from, but wanted to explore Mike's comment that he felt most holes played uphill (On par 3s, this measurement is the lowest point in the walk to the green)
3) The elevation of the middle of each green.
** (Holes 9-14 are not complete in Google Earth, but for the most part it does appears shaped. As such these are fairly rough measurements)
Observations:
On 10 of the holes, it’s a net drop in overall elevation from tee to green.
6 holes have a net gain of 10 feet or less tee to green.
2 holes have a significant net gain, (14 and 18 are over 30 feet)
Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
Given this data, It certainly seems plausible that personal experiences may vary while playing Sedge. While nearly every hole goes down from the tee at some point (16), nearly the same (15) go up from the lowest point back to the green. Two holes, 12 and 14, appear to play uphill the entire way. (18 could be same, depending on which route you take)
Thoughts?
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Thanks for pointing out the sizing error. I still don't understand what causes them sometimes.
Apathy. :P
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Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
. . .
Thoughts?
Kalen:
I appreciate your trying to find a way to quantify the walkability of a course. The data doesn't help much unless there are lots of other courses used for comparison, and I'm not sure it will change anyone's feelings about how difficult a walk they had.
But, by definition, isn't the green nearly always going to be above the lowest point of the fairway? I guess not for the Dell at Lahinch, but it's pretty rare to see a hole that falls all the way from tee to green.
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Additionally:
16 of 18 holes play downhill from the tee thru some part of the fairway (or the walk thru a low area on a par 3)
On 10 of these 16 holes the downhill walk is more than 20 feet lower than the tee.
For 5 of these prior 10, the walk is more than 30 feet downhill.
However…
15 of 18 greens are also uphill from the lowest part of the fairway (or dip on a par 3) as you walk from tee to green.
On 8 of those 15 holes, the green is 15 feet or higher from the lowest point.
. . .
Thoughts?
Kalen:
I appreciate your trying to find a way to quantify the walkability of a course. The data doesn't help much unless there are lots of other courses used for comparison, and I'm not sure it will change anyone's feelings about how difficult a walk they had.
But, by definition, isn't the green nearly always going to be above the lowest point of the fairway? I guess not for the Dell at Lahinch, but it's pretty rare to see a hole that falls all the way from tee to green.
Tom,
Valid points all around. This is my first attempt at such exercise, that I mostly did out of curiosity to try to better understand the varying perceptions of the walk. Perhaps I'll try another course like Pac Dunes, which is generally regarded as flat...
P.S. You can certainly correct me here, but I have 8 and 13 at Sedge being more or less downhill all the way...
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P.S. Here is the raw data i aggregated in a xls with a few calculations. Negative numbers are downhill, positive up.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53914340573_cb39973444_c.jpg)
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Tom,
Valid points all around. This is my first attempt at such exercise, that I mostly did out of curiosity to try to better understand the varying perceptions of the walk. Perhaps I'll try another course like Pac Dunes, which is generally regarded as flat...
P.S. You can certainly correct me here, but I have 8 and 13 at Sedge being more or less downhill all the way...
Pacific Dunes has a lot of green sites like 4, 11, and 12, where the green is at the base of a dune and then you walk up to the next tee. It's easier to do that on a site with small, abrupt elevation changes like that, than on rolling topography like Sand Valley.
Yes, 8 at Sedge is downhill almost all the way to the green. [There is a bit of a hollow short and right of the green to detain all the water in a storm.] A few of the numbers in your chart seem off to me. There is no way that the 17th hole is 28 feet uphill from any point to the green, and it is certainly downhill more than twelve feet overall, and I don't think the 10th or 11th has that much variation, either [although 11 could be a fooler, since it's so long].
In the end, I'm happy for some people to say it's a tougher walk than they expected, and maybe the walkability is only 7/10. I doubt it's worse than Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes . . . if you're going to crunch some numbers, maybe start with those?
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P.S. Here is the raw data i aggregated in a xls with a few calculations. Negative numbers are downhill, positive up.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53914340573_cb39973444_c.jpg)
Kalen,
I agree with Tom that your attempt to quantify walkability is interesting, but it is a little hard to relate the numbers to courses I’ve played.
Wish I had your Google Earth skills.
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Hey Tim,
There would certainly be lots of variability depending on the course. Once again, Sedge only peaked my interest due to the varying viewpoints.
As a reference point, I measured a hole we're all familiar with: ANGC #10.
Tee box = 317 feet elevation
Lowest point in fairway on path to green = 207
Elevation of middle of green = 216
So in this case you will descend approx 110 feet to lowest point of fairway, and then walk back up 9 feet to the green, for a net drop of 101 feet from tee to green.
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I took a few more data points on SV 17 and graphed them to show the approx. elevation differentials.
The Y axis is Elevation, X Axis is approx. distance from tee.
So while the net difference from tee to green is only -12 feet, at one point the golfer will descend 40 feet from tee, and walk back up 28 feet to the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53916518704_d5af3629ea_b.jpg)
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One thing to note on google earth is that they don't update the elevations as often as the imagery. On the Lido, for instance, none of the sculpting shows up in google earth yet- just the natural terrain before it was flattened and then sculpted. So, for Sedge, it will also just show the elevations of the land before golf construction.
For courses where the terrain has been updated, you can make a "path" and then select "show elevation profile" and it will graph the elevations along your path.
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Hey Tim,
There would certainly be lots of variability depending on the course. Once again, Sedge only peaked my interest due to the varying viewpoints.
As a reference point, I measured a hole we're all familiar with: ANGC #10.
Tee box = 317 feet elevation
Lowest point in fairway on path to green = 207
Elevation of middle of green = 216
So in this case you will descend approx 110 feet to lowest point of fairway, and then walk back up 9 feet to the green, for a net drop of 101 feet from tee to green.
Kalen,
Thanks. I remember walking ANGC #10 backwards one time. That is when the elevation change really stood out.
Felt more uphill than playing #18.
Again, I do think your methodology is interesting, but the numbers may have different meaning for different players or for the same player at different times in their life.
In a recent thread, I mentioned playing Manakiki, a Ross design in Cleveland that is pretty hilly. Forty years ago I used to walk it carry my bag and not think twice about it. Today I’m not sure I would enjoy it without a cart, something I hate to say.
Tim
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I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes. The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).
Let’s go there.
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I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes. The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).
Let’s go there.
Mike,
One never knows where threads will go. That said, I am really looking forward to seeing and playing Sedge Valley exactly for the reasons you suggest.
Tim
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Sedge in the early morning is a great experience.
(https://i.imgur.com/elQC3pNl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CJGRbMYl.jpg)
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I regret my casual observation has led to a debate on the course’s rather reasonable elevation changes. The course is a conceptual and architectural gem that deserves a more comprehensible and thorough analysis (which isn’t my forte).
Let’s go there.
Mike:
No need to apologize, but the questions I'm most interested in are:
1. Were people bothered by the inclusion of only one par-5 hole, or were they not missed? And,
2. How long did it take to play vs. the other courses at the resort?
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A question I would be interested to know is: since the golf course still has a total footprint in the low 200 acres, does it have a smaller maintenance staff or budget of the other two?
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Tom, I don’t think anyone noticed, much less cared. The only issue for me is are you being challenged and/or having fun.
Not sure but guessing right at 4 hours, no waiting. I’d say 20 minutes shorter than normal.
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Not sure but guessing right at 4 hours, no waiting. I’d say 20 minutes shorter than normal.
If there was no waiting, why did it take four hours??
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A question I would be interested to know is: since the golf course still has a total footprint in the low 200 acres, does it have a smaller maintenance staff or budget of the other two?
It's probably a year early to say, as the course is still in grow-in mode, but I will try to find out your answer at the end of this season. I'd guess the budget is somewhat smaller since both the greens and the fairways are 10% - 15% smaller than the other courses, but with fescue fairways the cost difference is not as great as it would be for other situations.
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It’s America Tom! 4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.
Like a 5% office market vacancy rate, the requirement of a par 71/72 golf course is a myth.
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It’s America Tom! 4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.
[size=78%] [/size]
By coincidence, for something unrelated, the superintendent of Sedge Valley called me this afternoon.
I asked him about pace of play and he said it's been outstanding. They went with 12-minute tee times this year to hold back a little of the wear and tear on new grass, and he reported that there really haven't been hold-ups through the stretch of short holes from 5-8, or almost anywhere on the course. The one exception is that people who drive it right on 16 take a long time to sort out their approach shots.
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To chime in on the pace of play…
Was part of a foursome on Saturday August 3 mid-morning. We never had to wait and were never pushed - and played a relaxed round. It took us exactly 4 hours. But we didn’t hurry once and tried to take in the course and environs. It was an ideal walk and we loved the course.
Skill level in the group included two excellent golfers, one above average golfer (me) and one ultra casual golfer who plays 3-4 rounds per year but loves to see new places. We were all able to enjoy the course equally.
I found personally that having one par five really built the anticipation - especially when placed right before a drivable par 4.
Feel lucky to have played the course in its first month of open play.
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It’s America Tom! 4 extra shots at 5 minutes per adds up to 20 minutes.
By coincidence, for something unrelated, the superintendent of Sedge Valley called me this afternoon.
I asked him about pace of play and he said it's been outstanding. They went with 12-minute tee times this year to hold back a little of the wear and tear on new grass, and he reported that there really haven't been hold-ups through the stretch of short holes from 5-8, or almost anywhere on the course. The one exception is that people who drive it right on 16 take a long time to sort out their approach shots.
It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.
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It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.
Jeff:
All true, but isn't that a "distinction without a difference?" Pace of play is important when you have a lot of people out there, but not so much otherwise.
I can assure you they are keeping track of how long the rounds are taking. The only number I've heard [from three sources now] is "four hours," which is vague enough that I haven't taken it literally.
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It is incredibly common for people to conflate "pace of play" with "no waiting".
I'd be curious to know if they have records of how long rounds actually took, rather than anecdotal reports of less hold ups.
12 minute tee times are wonderful and no doubt reduce "waiting" and leave a great amount of wiggle room for management.
BUT, sometimes the lack of immediate pressure from behind, or the loss of sight of the group in front, leads a group to play a bit more slowly, especially at a once in a lifetime destination.
They simply lose track of time.
Our slowest rounds occur on our slowest(as in least amount of play) days-usually in the fall or early spring.
On a busy July/August day, pace is brisk as awareness of peer pressure from behind, and sight of the group in front keeps people moving.
Jeff:
All true, but isn't that a "distinction without a difference?" Pace of play is important when you have a lot of people out there, but not so much otherwise.
I can assure you they are keeping track of how long the rounds are taking. The only number I've heard [from three sources now] is "four hours," which is vague enough that I haven't taken it literally.
It can be a distinction without a difference yes, and of course rounds without backups are a joyous thing.
How long the rounds take in real time would seem essential at a resort, where time for lunch has to be taken into account, to make sure the player can comfortably arrive for his second tee time of the day.
In our slowest shoulder season times, we still need a reasonable pace of play as we are trying to run lean on caddies, to convince the few that stick around in the shoulder season, to continue to stick around.
An 8:30 shoulder season visiting fourball, enjoying their day out, under minimal stress from groups behind, that returns at 1:45 due to an uncrowded morning can throw a wrench into scheduling for caddies when trying to run lean and spin them into what might be a busy afternoon.
Of course that's simply (mis) management on our part ;) .
There is no question that the fastest rounds by walking 4 balls on a large hilly property(3:45-4 hours) occur on busy days with pressure and visibility from behind, and ever present staff assisting with pace.
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As for Sedge Valley I applaud the concept and the execution. Biggest impression is that excepting the knob to knob and slightly downhill one shotters, I felt like I just played two dozen uphill holes. Hopefully a more thoughtful review is to follow.
I would love to hear more about this. I didn't have that perception at all from when I was there last year. Other than a few holes, if others are uphill on the approach, it seemed pretty slight to me. Maybe being really hot conditions amplified the impression.
Interesting, and I am trying to think whether Michael is right.
Partly it depends on where you are driving the ball.
The holes that DO have uphill approaches are 1, 3, 14, and 16.
On many of the others, if you hit a good tee shot you're pretty level with the green, but if you pull it left on 2, or fan one right on 4 [or 6], or hit it over the plateau on 10, or hit a short tee shot on 12, or go left on 18, all of those approach shots become uphill. I've never really thought about it like that.
I had uphill approaches on 2 (from the right bunker after landing just left center of the fairway), 3, 4 (from the right), 14, and 16. 12 felt a little uphill from the tee, and 11, I had an uphill lie, but not sure the shot was really uphill. 1 actually felt pretty flat in my recollection.
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...the questions I'm most interested in are:
1. Were people bothered by the inclusion of only one par-5 hole, or were they not missed? And,
2. How long did it take to play vs. the other courses at the resort?
Not bothered at all. I adjusted my expectation for score going in (I'm usually happy breaking 80, set my goal for Sedge at 75, and shot 70), so I had an idea what to expect, but didn't feel like anything was lacking after the round. We played the back tee markers, but not all the way back on the tee boxes.
I can't recall how long it took us to play, but it was under four hours, and would have been much faster if we hadn't caught another group around 11-12 that were not playing fast.
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I just posted on the Lido thread about my experience there. I figured I would do the same here. I just came back from my first trip to see Sedge Valley and I loved the place. It felt so wonderful and intimate, much like the way walking a round at Bandon Trails feels. The holes were wonderfully imaginative fun and exactly what the resort needed. I would be shocked if it wasn't the resounding favorite course at the resort (excluding Lido, but maybe even including it because I think people are going to be much more divided in their feelings on Lido).
Certain parts of the property felt so magical and if I had the course to myself, I would find myself just hanging out and hitting different shots all day. It is a very comfortable and easy walk, which is very important considering the big walks of Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. It is by no means an easy course, despite it being "shorter". In fact, it is a much more exacting test than either Sand Valley and especially Mammoth Dunes. That being said, it is a treat to play and I preferred it over the other two courses by a very wide margin. Kudos to Tom and the Renaissance team for building something extremely special.
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I just came back from my first trip to see Sedge Valley and I loved the place. It felt so wonderful and intimate... The holes were wonderfully imaginative fun and exactly what the resort needed. I would be shocked if it wasn't the resounding favorite course at the resort (excluding Lido, but maybe even including it because I think people are going to be much more divided in their feelings on Lido)...
Kudos to Tom and the Renaissance team for building something extremely special.
I just got back from 4 days at Sand Valley. I played the four main courses but was too tired to play the Sandbox after walking 36 a day. (I'm in my 70's). I should probably gather my thoughts before posting anything, but can't wait, so here are a few preliminary things:
1. I agree with everything I quoted from Stephen D above.
2. Re: the earlier discussion about uphill holes - I have no idea what the overall uphill and downhill numbers are, but the stats posted above trying to quantify the hilliness are not necessary. There are a bunch of uphill shots to be played (3, 4,6,12,14,16, and 18, as well as some slightly uphill par 3's (7,8), perhaps depending on which tees one plays from.
3. 3,6,12 and 18 were among my favorite holes.
4. For me, the greens played very different than at the Lido. The greens on Lido were extremely difficult for me to hold or get close to the majority of pins, Whereas, many of the greens on Sedge had backboards or sideboards that you could use to get the ball close to the hole.
5. Re: pace of play - The tee sheet was full. We played in about 4 hrs 15 minutes. Never saw the group behind us, but were in constant site the group ahead of us, but only had to wait on them a few times.
6. Loved the par 3's
7. Didn't really remind me of an English heath except when I let mind view the holes with the wild grasses and dark flora as mimicking heather, but I never hit a ball into that stuff at Sedge but fairly often visit the heather in England. #7 did sort of remind me of a par 3 at St Georges Hill.
8. Difficult decision deciding whether to play Sedge twice or Lido twice. Sedge because it was so much fun or Lido to see if I might have learned some things that would prevent me from getting beaten up so badly.
9. Take a day to play Lawsonia Links. Worth the 90 minute drive from Sand Valley at less than half the green fee
Link to Sedge Valley Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72177720320337655/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72177720320337655/)
Photos of favorite uphill holes:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53996825936_5339a58b97_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qgvR8w)
Sedge Valley #3 blind uphill approach to green behind bunker left (https://flic.kr/p/2qgvR8w)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53996825686_ec84a1c68d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qgvR4d)
Sedge Valley #6 uphill pitch to green (https://flic.kr/p/2qgvR4d)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53995934837_60510b9f84_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qgrheK)
Sedge Valley #12 short uphill par 4 (https://flic.kr/p/2qgrheK)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53997252830_4e9a7f6d80_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qgy32L)
Sedge Valley #18 (https://flic.kr/p/2qgy32L)
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7. Didn't really remind me of an English heath except when I let mind view the holes with the wild grasses and dark flora as mimicking heather, but I never hit a ball into that stuff at Sedge but fairly often visit the heather in England. #7 did sort of remind me of a par 3 at St Georges Hill.
I am sad to say that if Sedge Valley had been wall to wall heather to start with, they would cut it back to the point where you never got in it, due to some combination of "pace of play" and wanting the customer to be happy.
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Link to Fried Egg's excellent new video interview with TD about designing Sedge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M)
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Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.
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I did get to go back with my associates and play Sedge Valley a couple of days in late September, courtesy of Michael Keiser. We had a blast, playing five balls the first day and three balls on day 2.
Pace of play was awesome, as the resort stuck to 12-minute tee times at Sedge this year so as not to wear it out, as opposed to 10-minute gaps on the other courses. The difference was amazing . . . but they were giving up significant revenue to do that, so I doubt it will continue long-term.
I did not worry about the lack of par-5's at any point, though that's in character for me. The only par-5, #11, was one of my sleeper favorite holes.
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Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.
Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?
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Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.
Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?
I heard the same thing about changes to MLB. "What better place do you want to be instead of the ballpark?" Etc. Hopeful that Jeff is correct.
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Re: pace of play. I'm bullish on courses being able to improve PoP through existing/emerging technologies in the industry.
Like what? And how will any of them overcome the human element ("I'm not slow" or "I paid good money to play here, if it takes me five hours, then that's what I paid for." or the more polite sounding but still bad "Why would I want to rush through a round of golf?")?
It might not work at every facility across the board, but there are courses using certain GPS based technology that have shown proven results in improving PoP if the staff uses it correctly. In particular, Tagmarshall comes to mind as an example. I have sat in multiple presentations by that company with current users of their technology and each one was able to improve their PoP. Some by as much as 20-30 minutes. That doesn't mean they won't have occasional groups or people that feel entitled and don't respond to requests.
The technology gives the operator the ability to communicate with groups remotely, has a live map of where every cart/group is at on the course with real time information on each group's pace of play, and can be set up to inform the customer where they currently stand in regards to their group's pace. The technology can be used at walking only courses through a chip that one of the caddies or players carries (like an AirTag) or at courses that use golf carts through a GPS system.
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I heard the same thing about changes to MLB. "What better place do you want to be instead of the ballpark?" Etc. Hopeful that Jeff is correct.
I didn't (I'd heard for years that baseball games were taking too long), and there's a big difference between watching others play versus playing yourself.
It might not work at every facility across the board, but there are courses using certain GPS based technology that have shown proven results in improving PoP if the staff uses it correctly. In particular, Tagmarshall comes to mind as an example. I have sat in multiple presentations by that company with current users of their technology and each one was able to improve their PoP. Some by as much as 20-30 minutes.
That doesn't mean they won't have occasional groups or people that feel entitled and don't respond to requests. The technology gives the operator the ability to communicate with groups remotely, has a live map of where every cart/group is at on the course with real time information on each group's pace of play, and can be set up to inform the customer where they currently stand in regards to their group's pace. The technology can be used at walking only courses through a chip that one of the caddies or players carries (like an AirTag) or at courses that use golf carts through a GPS system.
That kind of stuff has been around for over a decade, so I don't know that it's suddenly going to start making a big difference. (Also, it doesn't do a lot if you're not in a cart.) I'm glad you're optimistic, though.
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Link to Fried Egg's excellent new video interview with TD about designing Sedge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF7dHC_MP0M)
I saw in a thread about if GCA is dead (it isn't, a wonderful place that has inspired a lot of innovation, creativity and thinking from others), a long time poster, Jeff Brauer suggest (multiple times) that Fried Egg has done nothing original. ;D
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Deleted (moved to another Thread which is more relevant, rather than taking this one off on a tangent)
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I did get to go back with my associates and play Sedge Valley a couple of days in late September, courtesy of Michael Keiser. We had a blast, playing five balls the first day and three balls on day 2.
Pace of play was awesome, as the resort stuck to 12-minute tee times at Sedge this year so as not to wear it out, as opposed to 10-minute gaps on the other courses. The difference was amazing . . . but they were giving up significant revenue to do that, so I doubt it will continue long-term.
I did not worry about the lack of par-5's at any point, though that's in character for me. The only par-5, #11, was one of my sleeper favorite holes.
Played an annual tourney last week in 7th year: 8 guys from our club v. 8 caddies and pros from Sand Valley in a Ryder Cup type format.
First round on Sedge, PM spin around SandBox then round on Lido the next am.
Played two 9-hole matches on Sedge against both caddies and SV pros/managers. Caddies said Sedge serves up some of the slowest rounds due to:
1. Routing has a par 3, drivable par 4, then short par 3 and another longer par 3 (consecutively) on front 9 that just kills pace of play.
2. Unlike the other courses, Sedge has a ton of deep grass adjacent to fairways and greens so guests lose a ton of balls.
3. Back 9 has a reachable par 5 (if you can hold the green!!) , very short drivable par 4 and then a par 3 consecutively that also creates bottle necks.
Side notes:
- caddies up there are serious players...as in +5, +4. +3....we got smoked this year. We beat the pros and "managers", but caddies were way too good. (Adam, Southie, Hutch especially!)
- 16 of us played SandBox and we had 3 holes in ONE!!!! No one had ever seen that.
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Which tees do the majority play from? My assumption is most guests play from the Back tees (5829yds, 68.3/129). From those tees, my 14.7 becomes a Course Hcp of 17. Seems most people I encounter will look at the yardage and head to those back tees without regard for how difficult it will be for them, and therefore, a slower round.
When I took my group to Gearhart, they were a little hesitant to play from the 6100yd tees as they immediately assumed the 6500yd option was where they were headed. They were really surprised when they discovered that I had set the tournament up to be played from the 5700yd set....and everyone had a blast.
My guess is that a significant percentage of the golfers should be playing at the 4700 tees?
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My guess is that a significant percentage of the golfers should be playing at the 4700 tees?
That's an overstatement. Four shots less par translates into about 600 yards on the scorecard . . . so you can play back at Sedge if you're used to playing at 6700 yards, and you should play at 5400 if you're used to playing around 6000.
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"That's an overstatement. Four shots less par translates into about 600 yards on the scorecard . . . so you can play back at Sedge if you're used to playing at 6700 yards, and you should play at 5400 if you're used to playing around 6000."
Spot on, so many are still locked into the Par 72 mentality (and 7000+yds for Men) which I applaud you trying to break at Sedge Valley.
They just don't understand shorter courses can be as challenging (vs. Par which is a blunt relative measure of difficulty)
My Home Club (Henley GC, James Braid 1907) has 6x Par 3's on a Par 70 layout with yardage of 6300yds from the "tips" (White)
N.B. Virtually no change over almost 120yrs, as course in on only 90 acres of useable chalk downland.
The reason very few take it apart (& we have had 12 Open Champions play it over the years) is it effectively plays 6800-7050yds, if it only had 4x or perhaps 3x Par 3's as many other "longer" courses do.
Nevermind the underlying strategic variety, architectural innovation, fun & challenge Braid produced in 1907 that is still relevant.
It is also why it still plays too long for the women golfers as current yardage is 5381yds (Red) & 4964yds (Green - newly added this year as we moved to shared "Gender Neutral" Tees) which effectively play to c.5800-6000yds & c.5350-5550yds (respectively) elsewhere.
Cheers
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I seem to recall a thread discussion herein suggesting that a persons optimum 18-hole yardage is their 5-iron carry multiplied by 36, ie say 150 x 36 = 5,400.
Just a recollection.
Atb
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I seem to recall a thread discussion herein suggesting that a persons optimum 18-hole yardage is their 5-iron carry multiplied by 36, ie say 150 x 36 = 5,400.
Just a recollection.
Atb
Yes, something like this is my recollection. The concept works well for me.
Ciao