I played a course a few weeks ago with some of the firmest and fastest fairways and greens I've ever played. I sure liked the conditions off the tee, although there were a couple of times the ball ran farther than my caddie or I thought it would and ran into a bunker. That was fine; I misjudged. Hitting to the greens, however, created problems for me. I hit what I thought were good shots, only to have them go through the greens. I played for the roll, and if I hit them any shorter, I'd have been in a bunker the ball, or it would have stayed short of the green. I loved the course, but the setup made it impossible for me to play it well. I don't hit the ball high enough to hold those greens anymore.
I’d be interested to know the holes. This set up makes angles in golf everything, and I love strategy.
."I want to get back there again."
That's the most important thing.
FWIW, I've had the same problem only worse at my home course and moved up from 5400 yards to 4800. The "Play it Forward" chart was right.
I'm averaging no more than 175 off the with my good drives and 4800 is the recommendation. Managed to break 80 for the first time in a long time.
Once you get green speeds fast enough the only way to get the ball to stop consistently is with spin, not bump and runs.
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration in choosing or revering a course)
I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.
I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.
I can’t decide if the course was too firm or if it was me. I’d like to know what it is like 300 days a year. I did play up at 6000 yards. It wasn’t too long.Tommy--
Tommy,
Maybe the older members move up a set or two of tees? Just a thought.
Mark
Tommy,
Maybe the older members move up a set or two of tees? Just a thought.
Mark
Here's another thought. Why doesn't the club employ a competent golf course architect to redesign the course for firm and fast conditions if that is how the course is going to be set up going forward ?
Niall
You cannot have firm and fast conditions for courses with significant fronting hazards or steeply elevated greens unless you want to rule out senior golfers from enjoying themselves.
And the love of the colour green and lusher grass and thus the desire for irrigation has spread to approaches and fairway areas on holes which previously could be played at a lower trajectory.You cannot have firm and fast conditions for courses with significant fronting hazards or steeply elevated greens unless you want to rule out senior golfers from enjoying themselves.Seniors, juniors, women. All low trajectory players.
Unfortunately most golf courses are designed by very good players who can't relate to them.
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration in choosing or revering a course)
I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.
I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration in choosing or revering a course)
I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.
I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.
You see this one Jeff! ;D
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17)
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration in choosing or revering a course)
I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.
I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.
You see this one Jeff! ;D
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17)
I played in a tournament a bunch of years ago when the pin was in the wrong place for the speed of the greens. Many of us four and five putted, but the officials did nothing.
When is a course too fast and firm for every day play?When it makes it clear that the golf balls pros have become accustomed to do not spin enough.
I can’t decide if the course was too firm or if it was me. I’d like to know what it is like 300 days a year. I did play up at 6000 yards. It wasn’t too long.Tommy--
I'd be interested to know what model of golf ball you play.
Late last year, I switched from the slightly longer Titleist Pro V1 to the firmer and slightly shorter but noticeably spinnier Titleist Pro V1x. It has made a significant difference to me on iron shots and wedges, including closer-in greenside shots. I've played better since I switched. The experience has suggested to me that the vast majority of golfers play a golf ball (or perhaps a combination of golf ball + irons and wedges) that does not spin nearly enough, and that that deficiency is really highlighted on very firm turf.
As average golf course conditions become firmer and faster - my sense is that this is happening, albeit very gradually and in fits and starts in different places - a golf ball that spins more on approaches and greenside shots will become more of an asset to the vast majority of golfers.
Distance has always been the feature that golf ball marketers have pushed, sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. But as more golfers realize they can solve their distance issues by simply moving up a tee box, I think spin becomes a more important factor in choosing the right golf ball for them.
I have often thought that the Pro V has negatively impacted the amateur golfer.Very perceptive.
High spinning balls used to be the domain of the elite player and the average golfer managed their game with low spin but durable offerings. Those low spin balls supported the bump and run and other shots which employed the release of the ball. Lower lofted irons such as a 7 or 8 iron were used because the ball was inherently geared towards shots that release.
I watch a lot of club golf and average golfers using pro v balls and similar seem to find themselves in almost no-mans land when chipping or pitching. They cant spin the ball enough to have it always hold on the green yet the ball spins too much for a predictable bump and run
I have often thought that the Pro V has negatively impacted the amateur golfer.
High spinning balls used to be the domain of the elite player and the average golfer managed their game with low spin but durable offerings. Those low spin balls supported the bump and run and other shots which employed the release of the ball. Lower lofted irons such as a 7 or 8 iron were used because the ball was inherently geared towards shots that release.
I watch a lot of club golf and average golfers using pro v balls and similar seem to find themselves in almost no-mans land when chipping or pitching. They cant spin the ball enough to have it always hold on the green yet the ball spins too much for a predictable bump and run
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
Average golfers (I’m one) are in no-mans land because they can’t hit greens with any club or ball in regulation.
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
I reckon most second tier links courses in the UK come pretty close.F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.Absolutely!
Ciao
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.
Ciao
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.
Ciao
+1 such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.
Ciao
+1 such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.
Yes to all of this! I'm curious what anyone/everyone thinks would be be a good message/slogan around this to get the point across. This firmer and not-quite-so-fast conditioning with higher/dryer HOC. Supers can do it, but players need to be calling for it first.
Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.And that’s something else some folks seem to have forgotten about these days ……. golf’s a seasonal game and there no devine right to expect to be able to play it 365 days per year even more so in perfect and immaculately prepared conditions.
Ciao
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.
Ciao
+1 such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.
Yes to all of this! I'm curious what anyone/everyone thinks would be be a good message/slogan around this to get the point across. This firmer and not-quite-so-fast conditioning with higher/dryer HOC. Supers can do it, but players need to be calling for it first.
Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.
Ciao
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.
Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.
Ciao
In a perfect world yes.
Your UK experience is showing.
In the US, especially in the warmer months,it is not uncommon at all see lightning fast, or super tight, and soft.
Fast once rolling, but perhaps non existent on a bounce.
Too much emphasis on fast in the states-not enough on the firm.
When you shave and/or roll grass to within a fraction of an inch of its life, in a climate with cool season grass where heat/humidity is a factor, you will very often see fast(which is popularly quantified, glorified and rewarded)........and soft.
Sadly, I even see this on bermuda grass in southern climates, though there are great exceptions to this in Aiken with Palmetto(when they don't overseed), The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell, which all are bouncy.(all three are new turf which makes that a bit easier with no thatch buildup yet)
One wonders if the turf were kept longer, drier and healthier if an inch or two or even three less on the stimp(both fairways and greens) wouldn't yield far better golf, with much more bounce, and slightly less putting roll.