Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Martin on February 23, 2022, 02:09:03 PM
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It seems to be sometime after the advent of “minimalism” as in 2004 Ed Seay designed Gillette Ridge in Bloomfield, Connecticut for Arnold Palmer Golf in a border town to where I live. It opened to some acclaim but it’s reputation changed in the ensuing years to way too hard to be fun. It has eleven forced carries and nothing I would call a breather hole. The example is not meant to be a hit piece on Gillette but rather an example that clients and or some architects were still promoting “exceedingly hard” is the way to go as late as 2004. What say those in the know?
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From my little perspective as a resort/public golfer: When ''dream' courses like Crystal Downs (6,500 yards), NGLA, (6,600 yards), Chicago (6,600 yards) began to climb and surpass courses like Medina #3 and Firestone in the early 00’s is the answer. I believe this trend allowed some to rethink why Kiawah and Whistling Straits were lauded as top resort courses. Pacific Dunes (6,600 yards) cemented the trend that fun was more successful than hard. For example, as a young man in Louisiana, I knew and read about the International (8,000+ yards) (the Pines at the International?) around the turn of the century. Why? Because ‘resistance to scoring’ was prized.
I saved my nickels and dimes to play the Prince Course (Kauai) in 2002. Golf Digest’s ranking had it somewhere in the top 40 in the US. I ran out of balls. I did not enjoy the experience. 20 years later when a playing partner told me at Gamble Sands that it couldn’t be a great course because the slope was <120, I suggested that he go buy the defunct Prince Course.
This is from a consumer perspective, instead of the architect/designer's; however, which one drives the other?
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Sawgrass?
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When there started to be more sand and water than grass?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51899944856_61edce5de3_o.jpg)
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To me, I think Mr. Cirba nailed it.
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I sensed it was when Golf Digest revamped their top 100 criteria away from difficulty. That said, I think they revamped it because Golf, Golf Week, etc. had come up with different systems that favored classic and more playable courses.
I'm not sure there was a definitive moment, but rather an accumulation of different events. Another important moment might have been the Pebble Beach Open in '92, which I think was the first time the USGA experimented with short grass around greens for a variety of recovery shots, vs. all 4"+ rough for difficulty. Of course, that was also probably somewhat reactionary to something else or idea that had taken hold, but I don't recall what.
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When Pacific Dunes opened, I was often asked (including here on GCA) if it wasn’t too easy to be considered a great course? Now some people say it’s too hard! So times have definitely changed.
I will disagree with Jeff B that GOLF DIGEST had anything to do with it. Their modifications were designed to make their list converge better with where public opinion had already gone.
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The building of and success of the Bandan Dunes courses. Folks discovered that high-quality golf need not be so difficult and could actually be fun.
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When there started to be more sand and water than grass?
Mike,
Wow! That is ugly.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51899944856_61edce5de3_o.jpg)
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
And what percentage of them have subsequently hit the green.
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Kyle,
Correct.
Also, which % was lower...those trying to hit the island fairway or the "safe" play down the right between water left and right where the shorter drive is punished more severely than the longer one?
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I read somewhere that the median age of American golfers is currently about 55. Since those who started playing golf as youngsters were probably at their best around 30, I'd guess that the 'harder is not better' demarcation happened 25 years ago, ie, 1997 -- which perhaps not coincidentally is when the Masters started trying to Tiger-proof Augusta, with so many other courses soon following suit. PS - I just went to check: the first Bandon course opened in '99, and the second in '01 -- so maybe the 'median age' and 'golfer's prime' numbers are a bit off.
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
What’s NOT fun about this hole; IF - as the GCA mantra states - scorecard and pencil means nothing and it’s just about “hitting shots that make you smile”?
Facetiousness aside, I do think this is a good thread because the prevailing mentality did change at some point. But I do also question this binary attitude that a golf course either has to be fun or difficult, not both.
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But I do also question this binary attitude that a golf course either has to be fun or difficult, not both.
Ally-I think your quote above is spot on. Finding that balance between fun and difficult is the challenge for every architect. Players want fun but I don’t think they want “easy”.
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When courses started calling themselves, "a championship par 72 course".
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
There is nothing modern about that one. A classic channel hole.
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I will disagree with Jeff B that GOLF DIGEST had anything to do with it. Their modifications were designed to make their list converge better with where public opinion had already gone.
I think my post alluded to that possibility.....but GD was the most read magazine of the day, so at least, it may have introduced the concept to the most average golfers to start changing the mindset.
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
There is nothing modern about that one. A classic channel hole.
If I'm correct that is the hole on King's North in Myrtle Beach which makes it one of the few holes in the US that I've played. In my fourball, only one person tried for the island and then they managed to hit the green. The rest of us schelpped the ball up the right handside. Even then it is a tricky approach.
Niall
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1 - I am assuming the first hole is the famous RTJ hole in Myrtle Beach? Designed when?
2 - Re the Kings North hole, perhaps worth a strategy discussion, but to my eye, while I understand hitting island saves a stroke by reaching a par 5 in 2 shots, in theory, shouldn't the safe route be, well......, a bit safer? You can find water left and right, and going long puts you in a sand bunker rather than rolling into a pond.......I would think that to make the choice a bit more dramatic, there should be very little chance of getting into trouble on the long way around.
Thoughts?
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
I actually enjoy that golf course, but that hole doesn't really work. Even if you hit the island fairway, you still have an incredibly difficult second shot. There's not enough benefit to risk it for 99% of golfers.
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What percentage of average golfers who tried to hit the island fairway on this hole succeeded?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
I actually enjoy that golf course, but that hole doesn't really work. Even if you hit the island fairway, you still have an incredibly difficult second shot. There's not enough benefit to risk it for 99% of golfers.
Indeed. I went for and hit the island fairway with a 2-iron hybrid. But my second shot was so long and the green at such an awkward angle from there that I ended up laying up back to the main fairway, making the whole thing a waste! I guess you could fault me for going for it but compromising and taking less club off the tee.
As silly as it looks, trying to hit that island fairway is one of the most thrilling shots that I've played. They just need to shift the angle of the green to favor a shot from there and maybe make it a bit bigger so that there'd be a reward consummate with the risk.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51900258996_4eac0c5cdb_o.jpg)
There is nothing modern about that one. A classic channel hole.
Perhaps as designed by Dr. Frankenstein, not Dr. MacKenzie! ;)
None of the angles work and there is really no safe play.
Heading out your way this September, Sven...hoping you're in the neighborhood.
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I wonder what effect Sand Hills had. It is no pushover but it is great fun and a joy to play. It does not beat the player up but gives him places to shine.
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1 - I am assuming the first hole is the famous RTJ hole in Myrtle Beach? Designed when?
I don't think the first photo in this thread is of the famous 13th hole at RTJ's Dunes in Myrtle Beach, which opened in 1949. The hole at the Dunes does not have the minefield of bunkers on the left side. It has three smaller bunkers around the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/816/41354195471_db35376875_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/261k4yc)
Dunes #13 par 5 long approach (https://flic.kr/p/261k4yc)
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I actually enjoy that golf course, but that hole doesn't really work. Even if you hit the island fairway, you still have an incredibly difficult second shot. There's not enough benefit to risk it for 99% of golfers.
Indeed. I went for and hit the island fairway with a 2-iron hybrid. But my second shot was so long and the green at such an awkward angle from there that I ended up laying up back to the main fairway, making the whole thing a waste! I guess you could fault me for going for it but compromising and taking less club off the tee.
As silly as it looks, trying to hit that island fairway is one of the most thrilling shots that I've played. They just need to shift the angle of the green to favor a shot from there and maybe make it a bit bigger so that there'd be a reward consummate with the risk.
I've played that hole several times and have tried both options more than once. I've always managed to ef up the hole either way. As you said, even with a successful tee shot on to the island fairway, the second shot is very difficult and going the long way around is not an easy par. I'm not fond of the hole, but the groups I've played with have mostly liked it and all remember the hole, so that must count for something.
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Heading out your way this September, Sven...hoping you're in the neighborhood.
I'll be here.
You should see if you can add Bar Run in Roseburg to the itinerary. I'm hearing good things.
Sven
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I doubt a place like sand hills had a big impact, except for the golf architecture nerd... most players have never seen it
I think that the presidents cup 1998 at Royal Melbourne had a big influence...
Before that, North Americans had seen firm fast golf only on links courses . And the beauty of links courses is hard to expose on TV
Then at royal Melbourne in 1998, you see a firm fast yet amazingly beautiful, with trees and bunkers that are closer to what North Americans are use to see.
The course played tough but on was wide, receptive to running approaches, no water...
Vastly different than the overwaterred course at the time
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I'll be here.
You should see if you can add Bar Run in Roseburg to the itinerary. I'm hearing good things.
Sven
Awesome.. I'll check it out, thanks!
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I doubt a place like sand hills had a big impact, except for the golf architecture nerd... most players have never seen it
I think that the presidents cup 1998 at Royal Melbourne had a big influence...
Before that, North Americans had seen firm fast golf only on links courses . And the beauty of links courses is hard to expose on TV
Then at royal Melbourne in 1998, you see a firm fast yet amazingly beautiful, with trees and bunkers that are closer to what North Americans are use to see.
The course played tough but on was wide, receptive to running approaches, no water...
Vastly different than the overwaterred course at the time
While not many had played the Sand Hills it sure got a lot of press about playability and fun. Then it jumped high in the ratings. In some ways it is the most impactful course in the last forty years.
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It seems to be sometime after the advent of “minimalism” as in 2004 Ed Seay designed Gillette Ridge in Bloomfield, Connecticut for Arnold Palmer Golf in a border town to where I live. It opened to some acclaim but it’s reputation changed in the ensuing years to way too hard to be fun. It has eleven forced carries and nothing I would call a breather hole. The example is not meant to be a hit piece on Gillette but rather an example that clients and or some architects were still promoting “exceedingly hard” is the way to go as late as 2004. What say those in the know?
Tim,
It surely wasn't 2004. ;)
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It seems to be sometime after the advent of “minimalism” as in 2004 Ed Seay designed Gillette Ridge in Bloomfield, Connecticut for Arnold Palmer Golf in a border town to where I live. It opened to some acclaim but it’s reputation changed in the ensuing years to way too hard to be fun. It has eleven forced carries and nothing I would call a breather hole. The example is not meant to be a hit piece on Gillette but rather an example that clients and or some architects were still promoting “exceedingly hard” is the way to go as late as 2004. What say those in the know?
Tim,
It surely wasn't 2004. ;)
#DroppingKnowledge ;D
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;D
Jeff and Tom's mention of the change in the rating approach of relevant golf magazines is, to me, the 'moment', but a look at the 'Top 50' toughest courses in the USA shows that there are plenty which built before and after they made their changes, and many after Gillette's inception.
IMHO the switch they made helped open up a whole new way to look at and create new golf courses, which eventually fostered extremely good architecture that was playable - an old idea that was dusted off and given a new life by enterprising young architects.
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I wonder what effect Sand Hills had. It is no pushover but it is great fun and a joy to play. It does not beat the player up but gives him places to shine.
The book DREAM GOLF by Stephen Goodwin details pretty well how a round at Sand Hills inspired Mike Keiser to value fun over difficulty when starting to build Bandon Dunes.
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8) Folks were having fun playing golf before Sand Hills GC opened and Mike Keiser was inspired... it all between the ears, left vs right brain stuff.
I would propose that the demarcation line was approximately when Rees Jones was nicknamed the "Open Doctor"