Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jerry Kluger on February 15, 2022, 09:24:43 AM
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it was stated quite a few times on the CBS broadcast that #17 is the best short par 4 on the PGA Tour and simply said that #10 on Riviera is really good - I just don't see it. Perhaps #17 is a good tournament hole but that is more because of its position in the round as opposed to its architectural merit. #10 has been recognized for its brilliance for so long and its genius is that it is still a great risk/reward hole after so many years and so many changes in technology. One of the things I don't care for about #17 is the water which as we all know does not allow for a quality recovery shot which #10 does although it is a difficult one out of the rough surrounding the green.
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Depends on your point of view: do you want to see players accept the challenge of driving the green and generally be rewarded, or do you want to watch them struggle after failing to rein in their ambition?
The holes are very different. Mr Dye would have called the hole at Scottsdale a very long par-3. The green at Riviera is set up for a drive and a short pitch.
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... Perhaps #17 is a good tournament hole but that is more because of its position in the round as opposed to its architectural merit. #10 has been recognized for its brilliance for so long and its genius is that it is still a great risk/reward hole after so many years and so many changes in technology. One of the things I don't care for about #17 is the water which as we all know does not allow for a quality recovery shot which #10 does although it is a difficult one out of the rough surrounding the green.
I think you made it a short thread by nailing it down in those two points:
- We can't determine the factor of "17th decisiveness" as a criteria, but we know that #10 does not possess it, and had cred well before the hole was even televised.
- How can a played shot option be inferior to knee high drop from the hand?
I'll make a 3rd... If 17 Scottsdale is contending, #15 River Highlands should be in the conversation.
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#15 at TPC River Highlands should be in the conversation; it's an excellent reachable par 4.
I agree with Tom that the beauty of #10 at Riviera is that it's reachable but carries such a great degree of risk that going for it and executing the shot is pretty special, and carries enough risk that it makes the decision to do so both interesting and potentially dubious.
Austin Country Club's 13th is another good one, although sort of spoiled by the backstop during the WCG. The 18th there is also interesting when reachable.
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One of the things I don't care for about #17 is the water which as we all know does not allow for a quality recovery shot
I would say there are multiple places on 10 at Riviera that don’t allow for a quality recovery shot: anything blocked by trees to the left of the green, and also anything to the right of the bunker, from where hitting the green is basically an impossibility. I think you could make the case that 17 at Scottsdale elicits a more interesting variety of short game shots overall—more quality recovery shots, really.
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I would say there are multiple places on 10 at Riviera that don’t allow for a quality recovery shot: anything blocked by trees to the left of the green, and also anything to the right of the bunker, from where hitting the green is basically an impossibility. I think you could make the case that 17 at Scottsdale elicits a more interesting variety of short game shots overall—more quality recovery shots, really.
I'd be happy to take the other side of that argument.
It may be very difficult to impossible for you to hold the green at Riviera from the wrong side of the hole [hint: don't hit it there], but you've still got to decide how you will try to make your three or four, and what sort of shot to hit. That's 100x more interesting than a penalty drop. Also, "blocked by trees" is all relative, you can go left or right or under them to get somewhere, that's what recovery shots are all about. The idea that you should have a clear path to get it close is where we differ.
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It seems the criteria used today to determine if a "drivable" par 4 is good is a) do most players try to drive it, and b) do players that try to drive it score better on average than players who lay up.
With that criteria then the 17th at Scottsdale is a very good drivable par 4.
Not sure that means its a good hole tho, and it seems if that is the criteria, then the idea that a good short 4 should present options is no longer the main criteria for judging if a hole is "good" or not.
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It seems the criteria used today to determine if a "drivable" par 4 is good is a) do most players try to drive it, and b) do players that try to drive it score better on average than players who lay up.
That's the dead opposite of the attitude to those holes in Australia, where many of the best sub-300-yard par-4's are to be found.
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The difference to me is that all the Tour players go for the green on the 17th at TPC Scottsdale, unless they can't reach the green with a driver in their hand. Most get there with a three wood. Even if they hit the ball into the pond with their first there's decent chance they'll salvage par. Hardly anyone double bogey's that hole let alone makes bogey.
Conversely, there is much more risk - reward factor to the 10th at Riviera. For starters, the odds of actually keeping a ball on the green with your drive is minimal compared to the 17th at Scottsdale. This then begs the question as to where to miss in the event you're off the green with your drive. Going over the green right is the kiss of death, as it's hard to keep the ball on the green with your second as it slopes down and away from the player. Being in the trap short right is no picnic either - depending on where the pin is. Because the penalty for going long or short right is more severe than being short left is why so many players elect to layup with their drive and hope to get up and down for a birdie. If you were compare the number of bogey's made on the 10th at Riviera during this week's tour stop to bogey's made on the 17th at TPC Scottsdale it won't even be close, as Riviera will have twice as many bogey's and a lot fewer birdies and eagles.
This should tell you all you need to know as far as which hole is tougher or more demanding. As far as the the 17th at TPC Scottsdale being better is concerned; that is in the eye of the beholder. I suppose if you like seeing a lot of easy birdies with the potential drama that comes from the occasional player hitting it into the drink, then that's your hole. I, for one, prefer the 10th at Riviera, as it requires much more thought as far as the best way to play it to get down in three, while minimizing the risk of bogey or worse.
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I would say there are multiple places on 10 at Riviera that don’t allow for a quality recovery shot: anything blocked by trees to the left of the green, and also anything to the right of the bunker, from where hitting the green is basically an impossibility. I think you could make the case that 17 at Scottsdale elicits a more interesting variety of short game shots overall—more quality recovery shots, really.
I'd be happy to take the other side of that argument.
It may be very difficult to impossible for you to hold the green at Riviera from the wrong side of the hole [hint: don't hit it there], but you've still got to decide how you will try to make your three or four, and what sort of shot to hit. That's 100x more interesting than a penalty drop. Also, "blocked by trees" is all relative, you can go left or right or under them to get somewhere, that's what recovery shots are all about. The idea that you should have a clear path to get it close is where we differ.
I bet a a longer form discussion would be interesting--a very good player and a very good architect each seeing the same hole from almost completely opposite perspectives.
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Add #10 at the Belfry in there but with a creek in front of the green.
Some great Ryder Cup match play on that hole for sure.
I played it once in 1998.
Was so unsure of myself on the tee that I chose to hit a yellow shag ball instead of a fresh Titleist Professional 100.
Drove that yellow ball on the green and then three-jacked for a par!!...;-)
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I haven't played either but it seems to me that the back left lobe of the 17th green at Scottsdale captures a bit of the idea of the 10th green at Riviera. If you go for that pin, you'd better be very accurate or you'll either be wet/have a very difficult second. On 10 at Riviera, you have a very difficult second if you go for it but don't hit that open area left of the green.
Obviously there'd still be a difference with the water, but you could make the holes pretty similar otherwise in their basic concept (with different angles and contours) if you expanded the Riviera 10th green to the left into the area where most of the pros are trying to hit it.
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I agree with JME.
Interesting conversation and I've never played either hole so can only strive to violate Mucci's Law.
Looks to me like the 17th has much more variability of tee shot options and paths to eagle/birdie/par/bogey. 10 at Riviera seems set up to be excruciatingly difficult (for a 300 yard hole) where no miss goes unpunished...
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Looks to me like the 17th has much more variability of tee shot options and paths to eagle/birdie/par/bogey. 10 at Riviera seems set up to be excruciatingly difficult (for a 300 yard hole) where no miss goes unpunished...
Jim,
This last bit seems to be the key from where I sit, having not played either as well.
It seems like nearly any miss at Riv 10 is punished except for coming up short left in the fairway. And going anywhere right or long may as well be water cause its probably gonna take two to recover anyways, even for the best in the world. But if you avoid it all together and layup with tee ball, you still run the risk of a miss on the approach and now you're in even bigger trouble lying 2 in a bad spot instead of 1.
Whereas only the left miss at TPC 17 is a bad miss, (yes there is the long miss too, but seems to be rare as i can't recall the last time I saw that at the Phoenix Open) And the best players still have a pretty good chance at saving par with the large green.
Is it possible that TPC 17 is the more interesting tournament hole, even if Riv. 10 is the better hole overall? ;)
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What if there were a hole where:
- penalty strokes are very unlikely (unlike 17 at TPC)
- there's a legitimate possibility of making 2 (unlike 10 at Riv) or 6+ (unlike 17 at TPC)
- laying up and going for it are both reasonable tournament plays (unlike either)
That's what 9 at Cypress Point is to me. I watched some of the two college tournaments there in the last few years and saw everything---eagles, X's, 180 degree breaking pitch shots, chips that missed the green, simple birdies with both two-putts and wedges. I'd pick that one as the best spot to watch a day of golf, although the beers might flow more freely at the other two! ;D
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I watched quite a bit of the tournament on Sunday and the only play seemed to be hitting short of the green and preferably right. That to me makes it a stretch to call it a drivable par 4. I was at Quail Hollow this year for the Wells Fargo and I watched quite a few groups come through number 8 which is around 350 yards - Cam Davis and Bryson hit driver and hit the green - many other players tried as well and missing could mean a tough bunker shot or a shot out of the deep rough but well worth trying to drive the green. So with all of the talk about the 17th being a drivable par 4 there was little evidence of it being played as such.
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Jerry, they were hitting 3 wood to that area just short right out of an abundance of caution. This hole is a long par 3 for these guys.
I wonder if anyone in the field hit an iron off the tee? That would be about 450 attempts...I'd take the under on 5 tee shots with irons for the week.
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I think these are just two different and delicious flavors of a short par four. You can blow the ball anywhere off the tee on 10 at Riviera, but the noose gradually tightens as you get near the hole. You can make a quick five or six with no penalty strokes. 17 at Phoenix is basically a very difficult par three. The water works because it makes the line fine between a three and a five and thus forces a player to answer some tough questions in the downswing.
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Jerry, they were hitting 3 wood to that area just short right out of an abundance of caution. This hole is a long par 3 for these guys.
I wonder if anyone in the field hit an iron off the tee? That would be about 450 attempts...I'd take the under on 5 tee shots with irons for the week.
To me, that shows the weak underbelly of the hole . . . that there is very little risk in hitting driver, just as long as you don't pull it left [as Theegala did, unfortunately]. Chacun a son gout, I guess.
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I believe Theegala did not hit driver - he hit a 16 degree hybrid that he hits a very low runner with and it just rolled too far.
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Jerry, they were hitting 3 wood to that area just short right out of an abundance of caution. This hole is a long par 3 for these guys.
I wonder if anyone in the field hit an iron off the tee? That would be about 450 attempts...I'd take the under on 5 tee shots with irons for the week.
To me, that shows the weak underbelly of the hole . . . that there is very little risk in hitting driver, just as long as you don't pull it left [as Theegala did, unfortunately]. Chacun a son gout, I guess.
What’s the risk of hitting driver on 10 at Riviera? It’s the harder hole but the tee shot is less intimidating, in my opinion.
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Jerry, they were hitting 3 wood to that area just short right out of an abundance of caution. This hole is a long par 3 for these guys.
I wonder if anyone in the field hit an iron off the tee? That would be about 450 attempts...I'd take the under on 5 tee shots with irons for the week.
To me, that shows the weak underbelly of the hole . . . that there is very little risk in hitting driver, just as long as you don't pull it left [as Theegala did, unfortunately]. Chacun a son gout, I guess.
To me, the temptation on the TPC hole is that players feel they must make a 3 to keep pace. That really narrows the range where they can hit their driver.
At Riviera, I'm guessing they all hit driver ONLY because they're not sure they can get their wedge on the green either...
From watching the Tour guys only, I'd suggest missing right at Riviera is every bit as penal as missing left at Scottsdale. Once a player hits it right on 10 at Riviera they just seem like they're trying to pitch it somewhere they can get up and down from. Again this is with the extreme speed conditions they seem to have recently.
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I wonder if we can expect grandstands to not only surround the 16th at TPC Scottsdale but also the 17th as well, even stands built-out over the water?
Atb
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I wonder if we can expect grandstands to not only surround the 16th at TPC Scottsdale but also the 17th as well, even stands built-out over the water?
Atb
Well half measures aren't what they have in mind. Maybe a pool party with the pond converted to a pool. :o This is who they are attracted for the 16th hole for sure.
(https://www.lavishvegas.com/_assets//image/wp_import/TGIS7PGEZDDT52P6NWWNDNWN6E-800x450.jpg)
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Jim,
Once again I think you make a great point. While there certainly is a very safe way to make par on 17 at TPC, (layup short of the bunker, wedge to safe side of pin), I'm not so sure one exists for Riv #10.
Its not a negative per se, but if you know there is a good chance you can miss 10 green with a full wedge approach 2nd shot, why not just rip the band aid off and get it as close as you possibly can with the drive to at least have 3 very short shots to save a par.
P.S. If TPC 17 is effectively the longest par 3 on Tour, is Riv 10 the shortest par 5? When the best players in the world come off 10 green fist pumping cause they made a 4, shouldn't that qualify it as such? ;D
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My impression is that the 10th at Riviera has become silly in the last 5-10 years with added green speed, the trees left and player analysis that has determined laying up is a poor option.
Setting aside increased driving distance, 17 at TPC Scottsdale plays the same now as it always has.
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Agree with those that feel like Riviera's 10th has become goofy over the recent past given how it's maintained for the PGA tournament. I have no idea how it plays the other 51 weeks out of the year but it seems like the only good shot is to the small area past the green on the left hand side and right of the clump of trees. the green appears so severe at the maintained speed and firmness that the hole is entirely defensive. Did anyone lay-up to the left of the fairway bunkers? Given the slope of the green and where the cart path and building is down the left can you even get to a point left of the fairway bunkers that allow you to hit into the green's slope? It appears on the overhead that you would really want a fuller wedge into the green that has a chance of holding your drive would have to be in the building or the trees just past it. I am looking at this overhead:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riviera+Country+Club/@34.0466172,-118.5003618,196m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2a3589363e83d:0x11738e458777ae41!8m2!3d34.0498288!4d-118.5013122
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97% of the field has gone for the green at #10 at Riviera. I don't know what the percentage was at #17 at Scottsdale but I do know it was a very small percentage of the field. So if a hole is a "drivable" par 4 how good could it be if no one attempts to drive it?
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Not sure if you typed that correctly Jerry…I’d bet a similar 90+% went for the green in Scottsdale. Are you saying those ratios support considering them both par 3’s?
I didn’t see as much of Riviera as I hoped but what I saw supports what I’ve said on here. Even with Driver/3wood in their hands, these guys are playing this hole defensively.
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I can't speak for Scottsdale 17...I've never played it or been there, but as others have chorused...the difference between a penalty shot and a club in your hands can't be overstated...
Here's the thing about Riviera 10...it's the narrowest green you ever seen...those who have played 15 Fenway will think that is narrow...or the older versions of Engineers "2 or 20" hole...this my friends is NARROW...no margin...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51893684592_54be538ddb_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51894742158_7e01c13a93_c.jpg)
I I can't say if this presentation is any more narrow or less severe in surrounds than in Thomas' or Hogan's day, but the thrill/demands of the hole architecturally-strategically is that even the lay up player is forced to be precise...but on the second shot of 90-45 yards...the closer it gets, the more demanding the shot.
On the other hand, the bold player who looks for a 2 or simple 3 must be precise...but on the tee shot... the difference between a precise front edge hit of 288 and a slightly wilder 295 can be ruinous...and if you're long enough to reach that green complex (few of us are even in this conversation) you had better have a plan if that big hit goes 5 or 6 yards (12-18 feet) too much or too little...THEN the creativity must be applied and the result for inexecution is high... When I consider this facet, I can't think of another hole that forces you to have so much distance control with a Driver or 3w, except maybe Cypress 16...
THAT is what's fun about the hole, if you have distance enough to beat the left fairway bunker (like 220 ish) you still know you oughtn't hit driver, but want to see how it works out...I can't hit a precise 50 yard angled pitch over the front bunker off tight turf, but one in 7 tries (perhaps), but you're willing to risk it, because a 2 is available on a hole where it doesn't seem like it should be...
If the green wasn't cut in 12.5 - 13 area and more like a 8-9, I don't think there would be nearly as much accusations of "goofy" And another note about "what must the Riviera players think about THAT green" is to note that the alternate green is in much, much heavier use...and that alternate green, a mere 20 yards to the right makes the hole banal, simple and no big risk at all, probably one of Riviera's plainest hole when the alternate green is in use.
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For a 75 year old, tenholds more interest and fear. Ten makes me think and execute on every shot. I can't reach the water on seventeen. It is a drive and short pitch, just don't pull it.
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Here's the thing about Riviera 10...it's the narrowest green you ever seen...those who have played 15 Fenway will think that is narrow...or the older versions of Engineers "2 or 20" hole...this my friends is NARROW...no margin...
Narrower than the Postage Stamp? I've only been to Riviera once and I wouldn't like to say which is narrower. I suppose we could work it out using Google Earth.
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The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.
But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.
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Adam,
I fired up Google Earth and took a few measurements:
Postage Stamp: 14 yards wide in the front, 9 yards in the rear
Riv #10: 12 yards wide in the front, 9 yards in the rear.
Spyglass #4: 6 yards wide in the front, 10 yards in the rear.
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I watched both tournaments on Sunday and I don't remember seeing any player intentionally going for the green at #17 on Sunday - the rookie hit a hybrid at the green and it bounced over and into the water - I believe he made 5. All the other players were trying to hit it right of the green. So a drivable par 4 where the pros don't try to drive it is just a short par 4 where many players can make birdie but not one where they are looking to make eagle.
On Sunday at Riviera nearly all the players went at the green feeling that the risk was worth it and they could get up and down even if they missed the green. Justin Thomas was the only player I saw hit iron off the tee and wedge into the green and made par. His playing partners went for the green and one chipped in for eagle and the other got up and down from the bunker for birdie.
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The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.
But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.
Were you to orient the 10th green at Riviera differently it nearly mirrors the 12th at Augusta as far as length, depth and shape is concerned.
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The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.
But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.
Were you to orient the 10th green at Riviera differently it nearly mirrors the 12th at Augusta as far as length, depth and shape is concerned.
Yea, that's a good one too.
Google Earth shows it 13 yards deep on the left, 10 in the middle over the bunker, and 12 out to the right side.
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Jerry,
Carlos Ortiz went hole in one, eagle on 16-17 on Sunday at Phoenix. He hit his teeshot into 17 to 12'! These guys are going for the green and hedging against the big miss (left at TPC and right at Riviera) because going there is a 4 at best and opens the door to 6. In fact if anything, I'd say the pros are not trying to hit the green at Riviera since keeping it on that green is almost impossible.
https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2022/wm-phoenix-open/tourcast.html#/hole-view?pid=33667&round=4&cid=510&hole=17&group=17&gv=no (https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2022/wm-phoenix-open/tourcast.html#/hole-view?pid=33667&round=4&cid=510&hole=17&group=17&gv=no)
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I don't see the similarities other than short par 4's. Riv #10 is a much tougher hole and green. TPC with water left make the pros think about tugging their tee ball, but not a huge concern. For more drama, cut the water in towards the green and front left a touch or shorten it another 20 yards or so and expand the bunker short of the green.
For 10 at Riviera the only thing which would make it better is if it was played later in the round like hole 16/17/18 perhaps. But it's orientation away from clubhouse won't allow for that, so a pipe dream. Great hole and we all enjoy watching pros struggle on a short hole.
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For 10 at Riviera the only thing which would make it better is if it was played later in the round like hole 16/17/18 perhaps. But it's orientation away from clubhouse won't allow for that, so a pipe dream. Great hole and we all enjoy watching pros struggle on a short hole.
+1!