Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark_Fine on October 10, 2021, 08:22:01 PM
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By an architect’s work that looked TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what you would expect to see from that architect? For example have you ever played a Fazio course or a C&C course or a …. design and said, “I can’t believe that course was designed by that architect”! I have played a lot of courses and I am struggling to provide a good surprise example.
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I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.
As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?
I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.
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I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.
As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?
I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.
Interesting, when I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was Congaree. It looked nothing like his other courses. The routing seems to be his but the look was nothing like any of his other courses.
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Joel and Tommy,
I am playing Congaree on Tuesday and I was thinking the same thing you are. That was part of the reason for the thread. I hope I am surprised. I will let you know.
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Literary critic that I am not, I find this sort of exercise to be challenging.
As you play The Golf Club, you are sorta surprised it is a Pete Dye course if you don't know going in. Friend told me that PD came back 30-40 years after, and asked the club if he could redo a few things, as he had learned a bit over the years. That's the essence of the challenge for me: when in the architects career did the course come about.
As you played the departed Charlotte Golf Links, you were fairly surprised that it belonged to Tom Doak and Jim Urbina. As you read Tom's book, Getting To 18, you understood why. Sometimes external factors (for worse or better) impact an architect's trace.
They say that Durand Eastman was a marvelous layout, and it was one of RTJ's earliest. It was butchered by politicians, so if you want early, municipal RTJ, head to Green Lake state park in Fayetteville, near Syracuse.
We had a local architect called William Harries. He built two marvelous courses (Sheridan Park and Brookfield) and a bunch of serviceable ones. How tied were his hands on all but two projects? Very tightly, I'd venture.
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Literary critic that I am not, I find this sort of exercise to be challenging.
As you play The Golf Club, you are sorta surprised it is a Pete Dye course if you don't know going in. Friend told me that PD came back 30-40 years after, and asked the club if he could redo a few things, as he had learned a bit over the years. That's the essence of the challenge for me: when in the architects career did the course come about.
As you played the departed Charlotte Golf Links, you were fairly surprised that it belonged to Tom Doak and Jim Urbina. As you read Tom's book, Getting To 18, you understood why. Sometimes external factors (for worse or better) impact an architect's trace.
They say that Durand Eastman was a marvelous layout, and it was one of RTJ's earliest. It was butchered by politicians, so if you want early, municipal RTJ, head to Green Lake state park in Fayetteville, near Syracuse.
We had a local architect called William Harries. He built two marvelous courses (Sheridan Park and Brookfield) and a bunch of serviceable ones. How tied were his hands on all but two projects? Very tightly, I'd venture.
I grew up playing Durand Eastman. $7 got the annual permit and then $.50 a round. 10 holes on the front and 8 on the back nine. Rumors were that Walter Hagen played there when he lived in Rochester. Great place for a kid to learn the game. The original course had been modified before I started playing there and was modified a few times after that. It’s now 9 and 9. I probably haven’t played there in 25 or 30 years.
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Dismal River - Jack Nicklaus
Ballybunion New - Robert Trent Jones
Radrick Farms - Pete Dye
Radrick was Pete trying to be like RTJ, before he found his own voice.
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Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.
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If I hadn't known beforehand, I never would've guessed that Olde Kinderhook was designed by Rees Jones.
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Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.
I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor. Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things. Easily my least favorite Strantz course. Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion. But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.
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I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.
As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?
I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.
Subtle brag. Props.
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Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.
I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor. Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things. Easily my least favorite Strantz course. Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion. But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.
Always liked Stonehouse when I first started playing golf and didn’t know anything about GC architecture. I dislike a few holes at RNK but on the whole like it quite a bit. Haven’t played his others and figure Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent are effectively the same so why drive the extra? If I ever venture to cali again I’ll seek the one out he did there but I’d prob just go play Pasa again. If somebody wants to pay my way at Torrey I might consider that but only if it were
Free.
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Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.
I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor. Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things. Easily my least favorite Strantz course. Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion. But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.
Always liked Stonehouse when I first started playing golf and didn’t know anything about GC architecture. I dislike a few holes at RNK but on the whole like it quite a bit. Haven’t played his others and figure Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent are effectively the same so why drive the extra? If I ever venture to cali again I’ll seek the one out he did there but I’d prob just go play Pasa again. If somebody wants to pay my way at Torrey I might consider that but only if it were
Free.
I think that sets a new record for shots taken at a course……
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Herbert Fowler.
Seems like his courses are all somewhat different to one another. No particular obvious style so likely always a surprise on a first visit.
Atb
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Herbert Fowler.
Seems like his courses are all somewhat different to one another. No particular obvious style so likely always a surprise on a first visit.
Atb
I recently played Berkshire Red. Hard to believe this very Colt or perhaps Simpson looking course was by the hand of Fowler. Although, I wonder if the builders are as responsible for the look as much as Fowler. When compared to Walton Heath it's a remarkably stark contrast. I think the difference in the look between the four courses is as much about the properties as it is about style. Here's the rub, there is only one Walton Heath. There are arguably several Berkshire type courses. It's interesting that Fowler's end of career work doesn't look nearly as unique as his first project. Did Fowler just give in to Colt style or recognize that the Colt style makes perfect sense for the landscape?
Ciao
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I agree with Sean that Walton Heath Old has a unique style whilst there are quite a few courses of the same style as Berkshire Red.
Was it proven definitively that Berkshire Red was all Fowler with no Simpson?
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I agree with Sean that Walton Heath Old has a unique style whilst there are quite a few courses of the same style as Berkshire Red.
Was it proven definitively that Berkshire Red was all Fowler with no Simpson?
It is my understanding that Berkshire is 100% Fowler. I think the shaping of Franks Harris Bros is the reason why it is thought Simpson had something to do with Berkshire. Shit, FHB may have been just as influential as any British archie!
Ciao
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My two have already been brought up
Conagree and Dismal River
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Surprised? No, absolutely shocked.
Not to reprise Tommy N.'s classic Damian "666" Pascuzzo swipe that lives in infamy, a former design associate of the Uncle Bob Graves firm and I were remodeling SLO Country Club on the Central Coast when we decided to vector off to Monarch Dunes in Nipomo for a look.
Fully expecting a housing project with a golf course jammed between rows of cookie cutter boxes, optimism was not high - especially because most of his offerings land between serviceable and "not as bad as I heard."
But we both loved it - and the former associate was genuinely shocked. The use of sandy ground, shaping and creative quirk were impossibly entertaining. Yes, some of the holes are routed between backyards on both sides, but there is enough width and interesting mounding to keep your attention on the shot at hand - and not the water buffalo, sunning on the patio in a one-piece tent.
The putting surface contours were as good as I've seen anywhere - so interesting we ran over to play Danian's short course out of pure curiosity, discovering a 12 hole par-3 layout every bit as interesting as the shorty at Bandon.
Is it possible "666" designed this treasure? At least once a year, I make a special trip, just to play it again . . . . I found the originality and intentional quirk extremely entertaining from start to finish.
It is obviously on a unique site, but the (2nd to) last architect I would have guessed had the ability to cough up a ride this fun was Damian - but it is terrific.
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I was surprised that despite giving it my best effort I still hate Pasatiempo. In the same vein I was surprised to enjoy Spanish Bay. I'm not surprised that 99% of the people on this site are wrong about both courses.
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I was surprised that despite giving it my best effort I still hate Pasatiempo. In the same vein I was surprised to enjoy Spanish Bay. I'm not surprised that 99% of the people on this site are wrong about both courses.
I wouldn't consider Pasatiempo to be polarizing but apparently there are panelists that don't like it because of its ranking. People come to Northern California and its last on the list to be played and then it gets to you because its a hard walk and a hard golf course. The fact that its public and 6-7 get a bad rap and viola, its downgraded in the rankings.
I like Spanish Bay as well. Rumor going around is they are planning a major renovation.
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Barny,
Saying you "hate" Pasatiempo is like saying Charlize Theron is ugly. It says more about the critic than the art being contemplated.
Please, I gotta know, what can you possibly hate about Pasatiempo?
Or is this you playing intentional provocateur (like I'm one to talk), spewing heresy for fun?
Again, I grok why somebody might not like Spanish Bay - Garcia's solos in Dark Star can be fairly esoteric for the uninitiated - but Pasatiempo checks all the boxes for greatness in the Treehouse and damn if I can find much to cogently criticize without resorting to whining about irrelevant minutiae.
Hate ending a course with a Par-3? The weather is normally perfect and the cart-girl is a hot hippie chick from UC Santa Cruz . . . . what's not to like?
Did you 5-putt #8 or something?
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Chambers Bay & RTJ2.
Unlike many here, I actually like much of RTJ2's work (my home club WAS The National, Australia & his "Old" Course is a personal favourite). However i love Chambers Bay & just do not see much typical RTJ2 stuff there at all.
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Greg,
We have an RTJ2, post-Chambers course in Lewiston, NY, called Seneca Hickory Stick. All I ever say when I tee it up at SHS is, thank the lord it came after CB. A tremendous course.
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Strantz rankings: Tobacco Road and Caledonia are tied at the top; RNK and True Blue come next; Tot Hill Farm just behind in fifth; Stonehouse was a sorry mess. Haven't seen the others.
Fowler: Eastward Ho! was a stunner. You could play it as your last course and tell Peter of the Pearly Gates (or Satan of the lidless eyes) that you went out on top. Thanks to Keith Foster for bringing it back.
I surmise that, if we were to begin a thread for each of 20 architects (Which Coore feels least like a Coore?) we would clog the first page, but MAN WOULD IT BE FUN!!!!!
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Barny,
Saying you "hate" Pasatiempo is like saying Charlize Theron is ugly. It says more about the critic than the art being contemplated.
Please, I gotta know, what can you possibly hate about Pasatiempo?
Or is this you playing intentional provocateur (like I'm one to talk), spewing heresy for fun?
Again, I grok why somebody might not like Spanish Bay - Garcia's solos in Dark Star can be fairly esoteric for the uninitiated - but Pasatiempo checks all the boxes for greatness in the Treehouse and damn if I can find much to cogently criticize without resorting to whining about irrelevant minutiae.
Hate ending a course with a Par-3? The weather is normally perfect and the cart-girl is a hot hippie chick from UC Santa Cruz . . . . what's not to like?
[size=78%] [/size]
Did you 5-putt #8 or something?
I just joined a course that finishes with a par 3 and love it. That isn't why I hate Pasa.
I would simply dislike the course if it wasn't so expensive and blindly beloved. I'm comfortable with the term hate.
The signs telling me not to piss in the bushes are redundant and short of greatness. The people who live in those homes know something they aren't telling us.
The first hole is confused what it's role should be. It gets me started off in a bad mood. The view and any view on the entirety of the course is short of greatness.
The new bunker shaping is overdone and amateurish.
It's a housing course that would make anyone proud. If you don't care about greatness.
The fact that Mackenzie lived on the course means nothing to me. I've lived on roads that I have paved and roads that I didn't. I have rarely lived on my favorite road.
The only redeeming architectural feature is some ravine that was sodded. 14 I think. I don't see the genius in it.
But worst of all is that it is a course that punishes diminishing skills logarithmically.
I don't think it is asking too much to be able to name 6 great holes on a great course. I can't name one at Pasa.
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Thanks JK - I was looking forward to your answer. One of your better posts -- you've been hiding (or disguising) your light under a bushel.
I watched an amateur event from Pasatiempo, and was surprised that *this* group loved it so much. Yes, a Dr Mac, but it seemed a tough go for the average golfer.
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Not even close to a tough go for an average golfer. For a stupid and/or arrogant golfer, yes. For a brawn-over-brain golfer, perhaps.
I'm not convinced that a single one of KJ's comments is remotely accurate. Sure, there are houses around the course, but they ain't your average houses. Pinehurst #2 also has some housing. The Old Course has a hotel.
I've not the energy to spend on overturning the illogic. I think that Ynrab once had a great post where he fell asleep at the keyboard, finger glued to the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What time is it?
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Not even close to a tough go for an average golfer. For a stupid and/or arrogant golfer, yes. For a brawn-over-brain golfer, perhaps.
I'm not convinced that a single one of KJ's comments is remotely accurate. Sure, there are houses around the course, but they ain't your average houses. Pinehurst #2 also has some housing. The Old Course has a hotel.
I've not the energy to spend on overturning the illogic. I think that Ynrab once had a great post where he fell asleep at the keyboard, finger glued to the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What time is it?
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/eighteen-18s-of-the-usa-pasatiempo-bandon-dunes/
Yet you don't say a single good thing about the course.
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Ron, from tv it seemed that Pasatiempo could be a tough walk in places -- and from my (limited) experience with golf courses, I tend to think that the same features that make for a tough walk often make for a more challenging game, especially for the average golfer. (I just went to check: this year, two of the top collegiate golfers in the country tied for first with a score of -5 after 54 holes, playing the course at 6600 yards. That does make it sound like a tough test).
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To say Pasatiempo is not a tough course is silly. It's a tough walk with 300 feet of elevation change; it's tight in spots; there are ravines in play, lots of bunkers, and lots of opportunities to three-putt. But, nearly all great courses are tough, right?
But John is a member of Victoria National, which is way harder than that, and probably why he had the phrase "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically" close at hand. :D
The course has never been a slam dunk entry in the top 100 in America -- it's been in, and it's been out -- and that is with Alister MacKenzie's name attached. Without the name, it probably doesn't get as much love.
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I haven't played it but a good friend recently played Peachtree and was surprised it was the work of RTJ.
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To say Pasatiempo is not a tough course is silly. It's a tough walk with 300 feet of elevation change; it's tight in spots; there are ravines in play, lots of bunkers, and lots of opportunities to three-putt. But, nearly all great courses are tough, right?
But John is a member of Victoria National, which is way harder than that, and probably why he had the phrase "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically" close at hand. :D
The course has never been a slam dunk entry in the top 100 in America -- it's been in, and it's been out -- and that is with Alister MacKenzie's name attached. Without the name, it probably doesn't get as much love.
Thanks for the compliment but I am no longer a member of Victoria National.
I do understand and remember the first time I played Pasa. I told everyone back home that I had played a course designed by the guy who did ANGC. It was also a day never to forget as me and Rich Goodale partnered against H2K and JVB. It was after a few more plays that I fell hard out of love.
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I'm curious when a course being a tough walk became a disqualifier to being great?
ANGC is a very hilly, up and down walk, ditto for Bandon Trails, and Pine Valley doesn't look like a picnic either..
P.S. Pasatiempo is one of the few courses that greatly exceeded my expectations, and to this day the back 9 remains the most brilliantly routed I've ever played. Everyone has their opinion JK, but Gib is right, i'm not sure where in the hell you're coming from.
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Kalen,
I was surprised at the turn I took. I expected and wanted to love it or I wouldn’t have traveled 2000 miles and played it multiple times.
Being the eternal optimist that I am most disappointments come as a surprise.
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Kalen,
I was surprised at the turn I took. I expected and wanted to love it or I wouldn’t have traveled 2000 miles and played it multiple times.
Being the eternal optimist that I am most disappointments come as a surprise.
Barney,
I can't blame you for going with your gut on this one. Most of life's major decisions like career path, spouse, even which college you attend is about following your heart and emotions.
And the corollary to that, as stated by one wiser than me: "Its a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart"
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Weak
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Not to swell TD's head any further, the restoration work that Renaissance completed at Pasa pushed the course from very good back to legitimately great.
Barny, You cannot name six holes of extreme excellence *at Pasatiempo?* We playing the same golf course? I think you can make the argument there are six great holes, just on the back nine!
So, what makes a golf course great? Well, views in the distance can be an important enhancement, but the purported #1 golf course in America has nothing of the sort - unless you stand on the clubhouse roof to see the waterpark through the trees.
I can acknowledge Pasatiempo's front nine has some flaws - #6 is too narrow, #8's putting surface can be unplayable Stimping faster than about a 9-10 and #7 needs a brace of chainsaws to let the aesthetic organization of the elements breathe a little bit . . . . . HOWEVER, 2,3,4 & 5 are all holes I look forward to playing.
In fact, #8 tickles my sense of perverse amusement - in the same way the green on #1 at NGLA is deliciously maddening. That stated, I've seen more than one legit gunner helicopter the flat stick after a GIR ended up a double-bogerini . . . . .
Once we hit the 10th tee, you've got nine straight conversation pieces in a row to tackle, each one busting with strategic content. BTW, unless you can fly the ball over the sand on #10, try using the contours of the ground to sneak your ball using the runup on the right side.
It is all about ball placement off the tee - and thinking hard about risk-reward. I cannot fathom why negotiating the swale on #14 is a minus because it was sodded in,
#15 is #15 at Cypress Point, except without the rocks - but still with gorgeous bunkering and a sense of intimacy in that little spot of the property.
#16 is legendary - like Quarry Hole at Merion East, so please explain what's not to like.
#17 is a connector hole before the boffo finisher - until you try to decipher that complicated putting surface. In other words, even the plain Jane of the back nine has a wild side once you get to the dance floor.
Actually, I'll go out on a limb and assert PB has more ordinary holes than Pasatiempo!
#1,2,5,11,12,13.14 at Pebble - if examined individually in a vacuum - are not going to win any prizes . . . .
You "hate" Pebble Beach, too?
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But is JK right that it "punishes diminishing skills logarithmically"?
Even if he is, I'm not saying this precludes Pasatiempo from being 'great'.
I'm just saying that it would then 'surprise me' as being one of the very few courses that both punishes the weaker golfer AND that GCA.COM-types seem to love nonetheless.
(Yes, yes, I know: that list includes Oakmont and Pine Valley, etc. But from what I can tell, for most around here it doesn't include Olympic-Lake).
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What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?
Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.
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Peter,
You know what? Olympic lake - even after we erased hundreds of trees - is not a "great" golf course.
It is not, it is not it is not.
Olympic Lake is a stringent, highly objective examination of all facets of your game; again, like taking the SAT or intentionally subjecting yourself to some kind of perverted bathhouse gauntlet - except with golf clubs.
Opportunities to legitimately play the ground game are still far too limited - and for the poorer player (despite only 3 fairway bunkers and no water in play) it punishes weaker players algorithmically and logarithmically far out of proportion to better players.
And that is a weakness . . . . . without the whimsical or endearing quirk at a course like Pasatiempo. Once the clock strikes 55 or 60 years old, unless you've got fabulous genetics, the objective is fun.
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What is anyone trying to say with the adverb logarithmically? Are we saying that a certain handicap will score a power higher than someone 1-2 strokes better? That's a big gap. Which are those skills, specifically? Forced carries of untenable length do not exist. You run the ball all the way to the green on a number of holes. Other than 10 tee, I do not recall a void that remotely approaches an unassailable forced carry. Putting? The green speeds are not excessive for the undulations and slopes. Six is a par five, but not an excessive one. Three shots of 180 get you to the green, even uphill.
Three is one of the world's great par three holes, as is fifteen. Ten and Eleven are monstrously-challenging and fun holes, in completely opposite ways. Gib explains it all well above. Why did I not gush in my BG.C review? Space, time, and I don't gush.
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What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?
Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.
It's true, JM.
On the other hand, if I never read another post around here complaining about the high slope ratings of 'early Nicklaus courses' it won't be soon enough. And aren't 'diminishing skills' quite a lot like "already average skills"? And isn't 'exponentially punishing' another way of saying 'high slope rating'?
JK seems really to dislike a course that everyone else seems to love -- so what gives? He says part of the dislike is that it punishes unduly.
I'm just asking whether that's, like, actually *true* or not.
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Don't people who play for money typically tend to hold in better regard courses that favor their comparative strengths?
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Gib - thanks much for that. Only from my tv viewings, I've long felt compelled to defend Olympic against the critics here, if only because I believe/know that there must be room for "a stringent, highly objective examination of all facets of your game" in the pantheon of the greats. But from what I can tell, you are a good player who's been a member there for decades -- and so for me your perspective/insight trumps everything.
That said, and again just from tv, I am just surprised that the whimsy and quirk of Pasatiempo 'balances out' so much for so many.
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What golf course doesn't punish diminishing skills logarithmically--or linearly, geometrically, or exponentially?
Some golf courses are hard, some are great, a small percentage are both.
It's true, JM.
On the other hand, if I never read another post around here complaining about the high slope ratings of 'early Nicklaus courses' it won't be soon enough. And aren't 'diminishing skills' quite a lot like "already average skills"? And isn't 'exponentially punishing' another way of saying 'high slope rating'?
JK seems really to dislike a course that everyone else seems to love -- so what gives? He says part of the dislike is that it punishes unduly.
I'm just asking whether that's, like, actually *true* or not.
Never met JK but I'm betting he has a pretty good eye for what constitutes a good/great golf course--and he knows Pasatiempo is at least very good.
He's just being eristic.
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I can enjoy a round at St. Andrews without having to carry a ball over 200 yds. Or 100, or 50 or 10 yds. The difficultly of the course is linear. At Pasa there is a yardage where I lose my enjoyment. It's logarithmic.
In layman terms. St. Andrews is a course to grow old on. That is what I like now.
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JMEvensky,
Bonus points for use of esoteric, obscure word that sent me to the dictionary.
Nice!
Eristic! That is something Fred Reed would use in the Unz review.
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Gib,
The 15th is where I openly laughed out loud at the bunkering.
https://www.historicgolfphotos.com/product/15th-hole-at-pasatiempo-golf-club/
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Not to swell TD's head any further, the restoration work that Renaissance completed at Pasa pushed the course from very good back to legitimately great.
Barny, You cannot name six holes of extreme excellence *at Pasatiempo?* We playing the same golf course? I think you can make the argument there are are six great holes, just on the back nine!
So, what makes a golf course great? Well, views in the distance can be an important enhancement, but the purported #1 golf course in America has nothing of the sort - unless you stand on the clubhouse roof to see the waterpark through the trees.
I can acknowledge Pasatiempo's front nine has some flaws - #6 is too narrow, #8's putting surface can be unplayable Stimping faster than about a 9-10 and #7 needs a brace of chainsaws to let the aesthetic organization of the elements breathe a little bit . . . . . HOWEVER, 2,3,4 & 5 are all holes I look forward to playing.
In fact, #8 tickles my sense of perverse amusement - in the same way the green on #1 at NGLA is deliciously maddening. That stated, I've seen more than one legit gunner helicopter the flat stick after a GIR ended up a double-bogerini . . . . .
Once we hit the 10th tee, you've got nine straight conversation pieces in a row to tackle, each one busting with strategic content. BTW, unless you can fly the ball over the sand on #10, try using the contours of the ground to sneak your ball using the runup on the right side.
It is all about ball placement off the tee - and thinking hard about risk-reward. I cannot fathom why negotiating the swale on #14 is a minus because it was sodded in,
#15 is #15 at Cypress Point, except without the rocks - but still with gorgeous bunkering and a sense of intimacy in that little spot of the property.
#16 is legendary - like Quarry Hole at Merion East, so please explain what's not to like.
#17 is a connector hole before the boffo finisher - until you try to decipher that complicated putting surface. In other words, even the plain Jane of the back nine has a wild side once you get to the dance floor.
Actually, I'll go out on a limb and assert PB has more ordinary holes than Pasatiempo!
#1,2,5,11,12,13.14 at Pebble - if examined individually in a vacuum - are not going to win any prizes . . . .
You "hate" Pebble Beach, too?
This is a nice post. I hope no one missed it.
To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too.
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JMEvensky,
Bonus points for use of esoteric, obscure word that sent me to the dictionary.
Nice!
Eristic! That is something Fred Reed would use in the Unz review.
I wasn't familiar with Fred Reed/Unz Review. I read a few--his perspective is a little off center, fun to read. Thanks.
I once called Pat Mucci eristic--it fit him too.
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
Ira,
Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
Ira,
Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?
Yep.
Now, why did you leave Victoria National?
Ira
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
Ira,
Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?
Yep.
Now, why did you leave Victoria National?
Ira
I drove down one day thinking I could charge my car at the club. To my surprise they had decided to abandon the Tesla chargers on property. That decision flipped my switch.
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
Ira,
Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?
Yep.
Ira
How is Ira getting a pass saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon? I have never seen a sniff of such lunacy anywhere at anytime in my travels. It makes no sense as either bait or humor.
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I have no idea how this thread about surprises turned into a debate about Pasatiempo. But my one play fits both aspects. We played it on the same trip that we played CPC and the then four courses at Bandon. The surprise: a brilliant golf course that is better than anything at Bandon. The debate: a brilliant golf course. There are two "ugh" holes at Pasatiempo--6 and 17. The rest are first class, particularly the stretches from 1 to 5 and even with 17, the only better nine hole stretch that I have played is the back at NB.
But mostly I am curious why JK left Victoria National.
Ira
Ira,
Are you saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon?
Yep.
Ira
How is Ira getting a pass saying that Pasa is better than anything at Bandon? I have never seen a sniff of such lunacy anywhere at anytime in my travels. It makes no sense as either bait or humor.
I distracted everyone by focusing on the surprise of you leaving your beloved Victoria National.
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My one and only play at Pasatiempo was with Gib, his red-haired girlfriend walking with us, Mr. Huntley, and Dr. Geoff Childs. Most of what I recall 20 some years later was non-golf-course related but I don't recall it being overly punishing.
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My one and only play at Pasatiempo was with Gib, his red-haired girlfriend walking with us, Mr. Huntley, and Dr. Geoff Childs. Most of what I recall 20 some years later was non-golf-course related but I don't recall it being overly punishing.
Yes but you are one of higher skill sets. I have to say that too surprised me when we played.
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I've been surprised at a couple Ross courses. Specifically Idle Hour, which felt "flashier" in spots than I expected from Ross, and White Bear Yacht Club, which had a bolder and less intuitive routing than I'd have expected.
Upon further review (and in the case of White Bear, much deliberation by guys who did the real archaeology of digging for and discovering historic records), there was good reason in both cases for why these courses felt different.
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Idle Hour was shockingly surprising. I think I played it before we went to the track.
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Barny,
Don't think you're going to get a pass on this one either:
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"To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too."
______________________________________________________________________________________
Obviously, your being . . . . I know . . . . "eristic."
Or maybe "eristicratic" - an argumentative, socratic, aristocrat (from Indiana), challenging students with intentionally obtuse or irrational arguments.
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Barny,
Don't think you're going to get a pass on this one either:
____________________________________________________________________________________
"To start. I think #1 at Pebble is the finest opener I have ever played. Spoiler alert. I love the rest of the course too."
______________________________________________________________________________________
Obviously, your being . . . . I know . . . . "eristic."
Or maybe "eristicratic" - an argumentative, socratic, aristocrat (from Indiana), challenging students with intentionally obtuse or irrational arguments.
I’ve held this view for quite sometime and have defended my position on this site in the past. Last month or so I revisited Pebble and confirmed my opinion after a couple more plays.
I’m not going to use the range at Pebble and a little bunt fade first swing of the day is perfect for me. And that is just the start.
I prefer it over the first at St Andrews because at Pebble the tourists at least have to get off the bus to catch a glimpse.
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I too am a big fan of Pebble Beach Golf Links. However I was surprised by how pedestrian the iconic 18th felt on the ground and how thrilling I found the much maligned 17th.
And to think I was once a rater.
Go Vols.
Bogey
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For me it was May River Golf Club in Palmetto Bluff, SC.
As a Nickaus design course, I had modest expectations.
What I saw and played felt like an "enlightened Nicklaus" course with powerful bunkering, ground game options and the need to hit a draw sometimes...;-)
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JK: At this point are you of the opinion you'd prefer a course where the penal hazards (1 stroke +) are minimized with the architect providing a safe routing around the penalty, which may make the par very tough but a bogey realistic?
PS: Why did the old club remove the Tesla Charging station - were you the only one using it?
BK
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When I first saw the title, I figured it may have been about old guys and a fart.......
That said, I'm not sure why it devolved into a battle about Pasa. I have played it and was entirely underwhelmed. I just can't get over the tight and often unsafe routing, specifically holes 6-8, but also recall 1 and 2 not really being great holes.
In my book, and I'm a Mac fan, Pasa is nowhere near the top 100. It's just a nice course that a few have chosen to promote above its rank.
As to being surprised, I am guessing it's harder and harder to be surprised positively, given all the web presence that give you photos, reviews, and more about any course you want to go play.
Looking back over the last 20 years, my biggest surprise might be a 9 hole course in MN where they still had a mailbox to stuff your low greens fee in on the honor system. Also, finding and playing a few holes on a sand green course in Kansas.
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Former president George H.W. Bush did not like broccoli, despite the fact it is a consensus top ten vegetable.
OK, I guess I'll add something less tangential.
Grinding my gears trying to remember courses that surprised me, the first two that come to mind are Plainfield and Engineers. The east coast is filled with good golf courses. I think it's because the terrain has right-sized undulation for the game.
But I'm a west coast person, where most of the land is either very hilly for golf, or too flat to be of much interest. I freely admit that I like Pasatiempo because the course is demanding exercise, and I imagine myself staying in very good shape trying to walk it two or three times a week. I want a course that makes me work.
For Pasatiempo, like Gib I thought of #2 through #5. It's a great stretch. #2 is probably the best hole on the course. #6 and #7 don't bother me a bit, as it's OK to demand that we hit it straight for a couple holes. I think #8 is the weakest hole, as there's little or no variety in hole locations. There are three small pinnable areas (middle left, back left and back right) where the hole can go, and so many putts are attempted from the same few areas. Just too severe.
On the back nine, I like #10, #13, #14 and #17 best. I believe the back nine at Pasatiempo has one of the more creative routing sequences. The green to tee walks are exceptionally short. I find the tee shot at #16 and the second shot at #11 a bit too demanding for me to love them. The third shot at #13 is pretty cool. I also like that the 14th green is very flat and nondescript, just laying there on flat ground.
It does seem like #1 worked better as an easy par 5 opener. #9 is kinda weird, and the walk from #9 to #10 is a ball buster. At Pasatiempo, they play a game that is quite a bit different from the typical golf experience. Getting above the hole there requires very delicate short game plays. You're just touching them to get them started, or pounding them uphill at the hole. I definitely have a home area bias for the place. I like being there.
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The New Course in Orlando was a really nice surprise. I think they have just renamed it the Links Course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/rr7/rednorman/FullSizeRender(1).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rednorman/a/870e36c7-3375-4ff4-89e3-9a912e084461/p/0f254ca2-369b-4073-a0f0-883f244d6fba) photo by Jean-Luc Devilliers, CDSM
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The New Course in Orlando was a really nice surprise. I think they have just renamed it the Links Course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/rr7/rednorman/FullSizeRender(1).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rednorman/a/870e36c7-3375-4ff4-89e3-9a912e084461/p/0f254ca2-369b-4073-a0f0-883f244d6fba) photo by Jean-Luc Devilliers, CDSM
Ok now I am surprised, that course was very well named.
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Cedar Rapids for sure. It gets a lot of accolades here, but I played with a poster here who gave us the highlights of the changes and came away very impressed. Who would have thought a small city in Iowa had such a gem when you dust it off. This was after the renovation, but before the storm.