Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jeff_Brauer on October 07, 2021, 10:56:19 AM
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Had another gca tell me this in very animated fashion.....
Why spend hundreds of thousands on bunker liners, sand, machine or hand raking, etc., when just allowing golfers (at least under the "relaxed rules of golf" to smooth their lie every time they go in a bunker?
If supermarkets are saving money by going to self serve checkout, how long should it take golf to adopt self serve bunker raking before their shot in addition to after?
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At a run-down local course I know the new owners instituted a local rule, ie lift clean and place in any bunker. It took me all of five minutes -- and one 'sand save opportunity' -- to fully embrace the concept!
PS - they called it a 'temporary' rule but it was in place for months and as far as I know still is, 2 years later
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Lift, clean and place is acceptable in every tournament around (except USGA) when conditions dictate so why not in a bunker? Not maintaining them would in fact, lead to conditions that would dictate. Highly practical and frankly, anything that makes the game more affordable (an indirect result I'd assume) and more fun is good with me.
Had another gca tell me this in very animated fashion.....
Why spend hundreds of thousands on bunker liners, sand, machine or hand raking, etc., when just allowing golfers (at least under the "relaxed rules of golf" to smooth their lie every time they go in a bunker?
If supermarkets are saving money by going to self serve checkout, how long should it take golf to adopt self serve bunker raking before their shot in addition to after?
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Nooooo!
The essence of the game is to play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it.
The solution is fewer bunkers.
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If that speeds up play and makes people happy and saves money (it should do all three), go for it. You can always play it as it lies for tournaments, etc.
I still believe bunkers are hazards but I realize most golfers don’t view them that way. They are now perfectly prepared playing surfaces. You can’t win all the battles.
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Why not just make it lift clean and place through the green? I doubt that any course other than a very inexpensive muni would have players that would accept bunkers in that condition. I played a very good semi-private/public course which simply did not have the funds to maintain their bunkers so they allowed for lift, clean and place in bunkers and playing out of red clay or other dirt just ain't golf. They chose to spend the money they had to resurface the greens from bent grass to champion Bermuda - half of the players liked the decision and the other half did not.
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Bunkers are obstacles and obstacles shouldn’t be treated as expensive to maintain manicured sand gardens. Treat them as obstacles, scruffy and unkempt and thus inexpensive to look after.
And obstacles are of course best avoided. Go around them, go over them but don’t go in them unless you wish to suffer the consequences.
Atb
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Many people feel that way but the inconsistency of the penalty, particularly on courses/holes with smaller bunkers, where one time your lie is perfect, another its in a footprint, is tough to take. Isn't the inherent hazard or penalty that you have to hit the ball out of the sand - usually not being able to hit the ball directly and needing a different technique than greenside chipping or putting? The vagary of often used, unkept bunkers would drive me insane. For those courses that can't maintain the bunkers well, placing the ball in a good spot just seems a practical solution.
Bunkers are obstacles and obstacles shouldn’t be treated as expensive to maintain manicured sand gardens. Treat them as obstacles, scruffy and unkempt and thus inexpensive to look after.
And obstacles are of course best avoided. Go around them, go over them but don’t go in them unless you wish to suffer the consequences.
Atb
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If that speeds up play and makes people happy and saves money (it should do all three), go for it. You can always play it as it lies for tournaments, etc.
I still believe bunkers are hazards but I realize most golfers don’t view them that way. They are now perfectly prepared playing surfaces. You can’t win all the battles.
I don’t remember hearing anyone suggest that bunkers aren’t hazards. I do want them to be “perfectly prepared playing services“ but even if so, they are still hazards best avoided for most golfers. Bunker play might be the best part of my game, but I would still rather take my chances in most cases from grassy areas near the green. Tour players are getting up and down less often from sand than otherwise.
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Bunkers would still be hazards if we had lift clean and place, but only if they'd been design as hazards in the first place!
In my experience with average courses, the majority of bunkers *weren't*. Build some real hazards first -- 6 foot deep, Open-style sod faced pots -- and we could lift clean and place all we want and they'd *still* be hazards!!
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I think golfer expectations have changed for good. Smooth greens, well-conditioned fairways, fairly uniform rough, etc... and manicured bunkers. Sure maybe at a run-down muni its fine to just say "fuck it", but would this work for any course that hasn't just given up?
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Last time I played Tobacco Road, the starter informed me that the bunkers we're played as "lift, smooth & place".
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This is all lovely conversation, but how many of you have played courses with truly horrible bunkers? Like basically soil with grass/weeds growing out of them and hardpan (or super soft dirt) lies? My guess is not many. My guess is most of you would strenuously object to truly terrible bunkers. The truth is bunkers are fairly binary. They are either really quite nice, or total shit. It's very hard to find a fine in-between. And make no mistake about it, routine bunker maintenance is a total time suck, and creates opportunity costs that negatively affect other areas of the course.
But someone will say, "they hardly do anything to the bunkers at Pac Dunes or (insert any UK links course)!" True that, however you can't compare a sandy site to the typical American clay-soiled site. Apples to oranges.
The way to save costs on bunkers is to not have them. Or more realistically, as few as possible. If we are talking about a very low-budget place, the best thing to do is to grass them in.
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Last time I played Tobacco Road, the starter informed me that the bunkers we're played as "lift, smooth & place".
That strikes we as an unacceptable concession by a golf course. Bunkers are, by definition, a hazard, and any dumbing down on this basic rule of golf may speed up play, but it won’t do anything to protect the integrity of the game. Go to TopGolf.
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Last time I played Tobacco Road, the starter informed me that the bunkers we're played as "lift, smooth & place".
Well, of course, you are correct.
But the other side of this facility management problem is:
- making the game much much harder for the less skilled
- far higher maintenance costs per much more personnel and equipment required to maintain all the bunkers at TR ... higher greens fees
That strikes we as an unacceptable concession by a golf course. Bunkers are, by definition, a hazard, and any dumbing down on this basic rule of golf may speed up play, but it won’t do anything to protect the integrity of the game. Go to TopGolf.
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This is all lovely conversation, but how many of you have played courses with truly horrible bunkers?
I see more courses with horrible bunkers than great ones. Most of the well manicured golf courses have sand that is far too soft for most good bunker players’ taste. In my opinion, perfectly manicured sand is such that you could putt in there, just like after a rainstorm. I don’t know anything about building and maintaining a bunker, but as far as playability, 95% of them have too much sand for my taste.
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My take has been the same for 25 years.
In most cases, far less bunkers
Better, more efficiently placed bunkers
Difficult to get out of, but there should be the option to take a penalty stroke as is the case with water
Should be decently maintained, mainly by golfers with rakes. Footprints etc is daft
Ciao
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I'd be curious to know the average # of bunkers by designer for their courses. The original #, not what has popped up since. Bunkers require maintenance and depending on the size, depth, edging etc. can take considerable maintenance that IMO isn't worth the investment. Less is more, a good example is Kankakee Elks, with less than 1 per hole.
Interesting article that mentions the number of bunkers on some classic courses, but they have resources to maintain them: https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/trapped-the-10-golf-courses-with-the-most-bunkers-in-the-world
Many are famous venues that host major championships and pro tournaments - Shinnecock Hills (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/14993-shinnecock-hills-golf-course) (estimated 160 bunkers) in New York, Muirfield (147 bunkers), Kingston Heath (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/18554-kingston-heath-golf-club) (145 spread across 19 holes), Merion's East Course (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/15013-east-at-merion-golf-club) (131), Royal Birkdale (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/33929-royal-birkdale-golf-club) (123), Pebble Beach Golf Links (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/15191-pebble-beach-golf-linkstm) (118), the Old Course at St. Andrews (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/17192-st-andrews-links-old-course) (112) and Carnoustie Golf Links (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/courses/16950-carnoustie-golf-links-championship-course) (112). No surprise there.
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A wee tweak to the Rules of Golf ought to alter matters.
Instead of the current 2 shot penalty to drop out of a bunker make it a 1 shot penalty (like ponds etc).
That way bunkers could be scruffy, unkempt places cheap to maintain and once again best avoided. If a players ball goes in one and the player doesn't fancy the situation they can take a penalty drop or, alternatively if the player fancies their chance of executing the shot, well, let them give it a go if they want to.
atb
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8) ;D
I'm with the one shot penalty to leave the bunker...it allows for a myriad of maintenance decisions that work.
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WHY IS THIS A THING?
Drop your damn egos. Nobody gives a shit that you don’t break 90.
Hit the ball. Stop whining. Clean up after yourselves.
Problem solved.
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Kyle,
Well, it's just an idea. Golf, because of its staunch traditionalism tends to be slower to change than perhaps society at large.
I doubt the pick, rake, and clean bunker idea will be implemented everywhere across the board, but for everyday golf, it may be the easiest, cheapest solution to giving the desired good lie in the bunker. And, it would sure eliminate complaining about it, if the golfer has the op to create it himself. And, if it reduces bunker raking by the maintenance crew to once per week or less to soften the sand and prevent weeds, that may be a big financial help to many courses.
A lot of us complain about how golf construction and maintenance keeps getting more complicated and expensive in response to rising maintenance standards. This is potentially one easier solution. It's sort of like the old joke about getting a truck unstuck from under the bridge. All sorts of proposals involving expensive and difficult things, until a small child suggests just letting the air out of the tires to lower the truck.
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I just played Sheep Ranch for the first time. I had heard about how it was such an amazing course and that it had no bunkers. Well, it was an amazing course. But it had plenty of bunkers. I have no idea how many - certainly dozens, maybe triple figures. What it didn't have was sand in the bunkers, just grass. But they looked like bunkers, defined holes like bunkers, provided aiming points like bunkers, made the course interesting and beautiful like bunkers, and were a pain the the ass to get out of, maybe more so than bunkers.
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Jeff Brauer,
If you desire a good lie in a bunker you’re expecting way too much from the bunker.
Don’t drive the truck under the bridge in the first place.
And if you do, by all means let the air out of the tires. In other words, hit the ball.
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Clean up after yourselves.
Problem solved.
If only the world were so simple!
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From an old Tom Paul thread: "As far as bunker rakes being around pre-1957, they must have been to some extent because Macdonald talked about banning them at The Links Club and Macdonald died in 1939. Tillinghast also talked about running elephants through bunkers on tournament day and Tillie died in the 1940s."
Modern standards are the problem moreso than bunkers. They are not meant for every course out there. TV, golf real estate developments used golf for marketing all during the 80's and forward. The faster the green, the nicer the bunker then the more the lot cost. Also, the supt. business realized that advancement often was based on exceptional maintenance. I'm all for supts learning and knowing how to provide exceptional maintenance but I'm more impressed by the ones who know WHEN to do so...So for a minute let's go back to basics....a bunker is a hole in the ground. Blow out the main drain line and make sure there are not gophers or muskrats that died in there. The clean your internal drains. Place new sand every few years and reworks the external edges to make sure no water enters and you should be ok. Everything after that in gravy, including rakes...
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I play 10 rounds a month at the most popular muni in SD, no it’s not Torrey Pines! Because we have union labor they only can afford to rake the bunkers once a week; on Fridays. During COVID the rakes were removed and you were able to place your ball. Trust me no ones sand save percentage improved. Bunker shots, even from perfect lies are still harder than hitting off grass. Now that the rakes are back you can get a decent lie or be in a footprint; it’s truest amazing how many inconsiderate golfers play our game. Even from perfect lies the best bunker players only get up and down 50% of the time. What do you suspect the percentage is playing from a footprint? You are now challenged just to get the ball out of the bunker and a 2 putt is not guaranteed. I’m sure sure even before the advent of the rake players were asked to smooth the surface with their foot. Do we really want to ratchet up the difficulty from down in 2, 40-50% of the time to down in 3, 10% of the time? Our UK brethren say suck it up, but their sand is much more impervious to a really shitty lie. I’m conflicted, bunkers should be a penalty but not the end of a decent round, due to the inconsiderate actions of the uncaring golfers. Now if bunkers were totally unmaintained it would be fair for all.
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Do we really want to ratchet up the difficulty from down in 2, 40-50% of the time to down in 3, 10% of the time? Our UK brethren say suck it up, but their sand is much more impervious to a really shitty lie. I’m conflicted, bunkers should be a penalty but not the end of a decent round, due to the inconsiderate actions of the uncaring golfers. Now if bunkers were totally unmaintained it would be fair for all.
With the increase in distance being the thing everyone talks about perhaps inconsistent bunker conditions would have more guys aiming for the center of greens or not cutting corners in fairways. Today, the recovery from "short side" shots is often much easier from a bunker than short grass...JMO
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It is nice to read a thread that impacts on architecture and does not veer into the political. However in reading it, I am reminded of King Canute who purportedly ordered the tide not to come in. At least with respect to private clubs in the USA, members have moved from an arms race on greens' speeds, which continues, to competing on the appearance and condition of bunkers, Almost invariably, when bunkers are "sub standard, the call goes out to install one of the new drainage systems such as Better Billy. Superintendents are obliged to go along, even if they are dubious regarding long term benefits. This is often accompanied by demands for white manufactured sand, even on courses built in areas thousands of miles from natural white sand. Many of us believe this is wrong for the game but I believe that ship has sailed based on many conversations with Greens' Chairmen and Superintendents
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Many of us believe this is wrong for the game but I believe that ship has sailed based on many conversations with Greens' Chairmen and Superintendents
Shelly,Hope all is well. I think you may be right when the decision is a greenchair/committee and their supt. BUT remember there are only about 2000 clubs with green chairmen now. They are the minority. The owners of the other 10,000 or so courses base it on what they can sell a round of golf.
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Mike, I am with you. Some try to sell these systems as long term cost savers. I am more than a little dubious. But expectations are created. How do you think "resort" or "destination" courses are dealing with this issue?
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Mike, I am with you. Some try to sell these systems as long term cost savers. I am more than a little dubious. But expectations are created. How do you think "resort" or "destination" courses are dealing with this issue?
All based green fee. If they are selling lots then cap con or BBB is no big cost but if they have slowed down then you never know what the GM will say....I will say the newer bunker drainage systems work well if a club can afford them but the "saving you will realize" sale is a hard one for small clubs...I would rather reduce my bunkers and have good ones where I have them...JMO
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I'm of the opinion of offering two opinions - both of which will save time (maintenance and play):
1. Lift, rake, place.
2. 1 shot penalty, take the ball out of the bunker and drop no nearer the hole.
Option 1 eliminates hitting out of footprints and other things the average (think 14-18 handicap) can't always navigate successfully on the 1 st try.
Option 2 would certainly speed up play at the public courses as many of the high handicappers struggle out of the sane, even if the bunkers are properly maintained.
Any option to speed up play is noteworthy and should be given consideration in my mind.
BRK
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I'm of the opinion of offering two opinions - both of which will save time (maintenance and play):
1. Lift, rake, place.
2. 1 shot penalty, take the ball out of the bunker and drop no nearer the hole.
Option 1 eliminates hitting out of footprints and other things the average (think 14-18 handicap) can't always navigate successfully on the 1 st try.
Option 2 would certainly speed up play at the public courses as many of the high handicappers struggle out of the sane, even if the bunkers are properly maintained.
Any option to speed up play is noteworthy and should be given consideration in my mind.
BRK
Bruce,
I agree we already have bifurcated rules for lost balls and OB. Why not a rule for everyday joes that you can drop out of a bunker with a 1 stoke penalty, no closer to hole? There are certainly a few times when I would have opted for this when faced with horrendous lies in someone's foot print.
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100% agree on the Sheep Ranch bunkers.
Perhaps you have three or four real bunkers to test the bunker shot as a skill. But you get the aiming lines, penalty and challenge as much (or sometimes more) out of the Sheep Ranch bunkers.
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From the green chair view.
Follow the money……. Members, potential members and public golfers expect value for dues/fee paid. In their eyes, value equals conditions. Good bad or indifferent, that’s the truth.
Throw on top of that the numbers it takes to rebuild after washouts and it quickly adds up. I’ve ran the numbers at my club, it’s astounding.
I can try to be a “keeper of the game” but education takes a long time.
The best in golf is for a lot of Americans, hard to get to and play, if not impossible. (Oakmont comes to mind)if your average golfer even cares to see it or try.
Most want what they see on tv (PGA tour, masters) trying to convince them that local sand from the river is “more natural” is like telling them a brown car hides dirt better. Who cares, I’ll pay for black.
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We put in flat bottom bunkers. Can’t wash out. Ball always seem to end up against the grass face wall or hang up in grass which is actually worse. They are a true hazard.
“I don’t remember hearing anyone suggest that bunkers aren’t hazards. I do want them to be “perfectly prepared playing services“ but even if so, they are still hazards best avoided for most golfers. Bunker play might be the best part of my game, but I would still rather take my chances in most cases from grassy areas near the green. Tour players are getting up and down less often from sand than otherwise.”
Really agree with this Brad. It may not be the best part of my game but I’m not bad and I would take a lie in the grass any day. I grew up playing grass bunkers as a kid. My father called them “elephant ears”