Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Blain on September 10, 2021, 10:39:00 AM
-
The Kyle Franz restoration is complete and the course officially re-opened yesterday.
Southern Pines, a Donald Ross design, fully reopens today (usatoday.com) (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/gallery/photos-donald-ross-southern-pines-restoration-north-carolina/)
-John
-
Perfect timing as I will be in Pinehurst over Thanksgiving for a whole week. I had planned on only playing Mid Pines and Pine Needles but now I will add Southern Pines in the mix.
In the photos of the renovation at the end of the article, it is interesting to see the frilly edged bunkers that I associate with Coore/Crenshaw and Doak juxtaposed to what we saw last week at Inverness (and other northern Ross restorations) of more geometrically shaped bunkers.
-
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.
I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?
Thanks
-
Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?
Thanks
Probably not three. No. 2 and No. 4 are pretty awesome. No. 8 is nice as well, but probably not quite at the level of the trio you mentioned.
-
Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?
Thanks
Probably not three. No. 2 and No. 4 are pretty awesome. No. 8 is nice as well, but probably not quite at the level of the trio you mentioned.
I had similar thoughts. My choice for a trio would be SP, Mid Pines, and Pine Needles. At the resort it would probably be 2, 4, 8, and throw in the Cradle. On the private side maybe a trio of Dormie, CCNC, and Forest Creek.
-
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.
I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?
Thanks
If the questions is would I rather play Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles or #2/#4/any other course at the resort. My answer depends. If I'm not paying my choice is #2/#4/any other. If I'm paying I'm going Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles.
-
Good to see the link to the article.
I played Southern Pines in April while under construction. On that trip, I also played Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Dormie Club, and Tobacco Road. I was going to try to get a walk on single time for Pinehurst #2, but they changed the policy to make times available to resort guests. My experience at Southern Pines led to making a mental note to come back and play it when it reopened.
I visited Pinehurst on two other occasions and played Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, and Mid South. I think #2 was undergoing maintenance one time and under construction another.
I found a decent fare to RDU in early November, so I decided to fly out from the Pacific Northwest for a week. I have been happy in the past playing the courses I mentioned, but this time added #2 and #8, with a night of lodging at the resort. I plan to play Southern Pines and will fill in other dates with what makes sense, based on options from communication with an acquaintance in the area.
Tee times for #2, #4, and #8 seemed limited when I did the booking, along with rooms at the resort. Dormie Club is private now. I probably would have been fine playing Mid Pines and Pine Needles. The green surrounds are interesting and fun and the courses are challenging and walkable. Southern Pines after the renovation has similar features, but the scope of tree removal opens up views of more holes, so each hole probably won't seem as self contained as Mid Pines and Pine Needles.
The area makes for a nice golf break from West Coast courses I play and the Pinehurst area showcases the work of Donald Ross, who didn't do work on the West Coast.
Charles Lund
-
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.
I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?
Thanks
If the questions is would I rather play Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles or #2/#4/any other course at the resort. My answer depends. If I'm not paying my choice is #2/#4/any other. If I'm paying I'm going Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles.
Basically, I agree with this. And, it highlights the problem with the resort...two really good courses and the rest eh.
Another factor for me in the decision of which three to play would be am I allowed to walk and carry. I know I can at PN/MP/SP. I'm not sure what the rules are at the resort right now.
-
Is the first picture from the link in the OP Southern Pines? Think they got that wrong.
Played Southern Pines yesterday, my fourth visit in the past year. I was there in March at the beginning of the work while the regular greens (save #15) were still in play.
Two most prominent impressions were: (a) the greens have been generously expanded without losing their interest, and (b) a few added bunkers/waste areas seem unnecessary.
Hole #1-bunkers added on both sides of the fairway, particularly the right side, provide a nice frame for the opening shot with plenty of room still afforded. To me, the most interesting element to the hole is the brow above the left greenside bunker. It actually obscured the bottom of the flag stick from the left side of the fairway and as I walked up, I was surprised how prominent it is.
Hole #2-I don't know how much the new crossing hazard will come into play. From the white tees, it seemed a little out of reach. I remember reading that Franz was going to change the 2nd green. I always liked that green. The size doesn't appear to have changed significantly; the new contours and pin possibilities greatly enhance the old version.
Hole #3-Green looks as though it was enlarged on the left/front left. The new offset tees did not feel that different. There is a diagonal "scrub" area (seemingly connected to the one on the 2nd fairway) between the tees and green. If it's supposed to be some top shot hazard, ok I guess, but I think it distracts from the view of the hole.
Hole #4-In March, I was too distracted by the extensive greenside work being done to appreciate what was to come. Trees behind the green had already been felled at that time but the view yesterday was stunning. The left side bunkers on the approach are beautiful and strategic. A "secondary" bunker long right seems superfluous. The green doesn't appear to have the hard tilt to the front any longer. New bunkers added along right side of fairway. A great improvement.
Hole #5-The left greenside bunker is gone. Right greenside bunkers have been consolidated and reach further down the fairway. A native/scrub area is present 100(?) yards out to add interest to layup options. I wish they figure out the ground outside of the fairway here. On either side, it's a jarring mashup of rough, pine straw, scrub area, etc. The speed slot off the tee is still there.
(With apologies to Sean Arble)...More to follow.
-
Southern Pines continued:
Hole #6-I cannot be objective regarding the sixth. When I first played it years ago, I fell in love with it. The green seemed to just rise out of the fairway. It was uncluttered and allowed for a myriad of approach and recovery options. Bunkers behind now cover nearly the length of the green while two protect the extreme right hand side short. I will never be swayed that it is now a better or more attractive hole.
Hole #7-I don't know if the tees were elevated or the green was lowered but there is now a better view of the putting surface. The right side has been improved by a bunker near the green. Another, above it, seems like overkill.
Hole #8-Despite the radically different views from the tee, I don't think the strategy off the tee has changed. However, the approach now is much harder, more interesting. I cannot discern if it is the extensive tree clearing...or if right of the green is now more open and closely mown...or if the green is angled more to the right slightly, but I sweated my 9 iron from an ideal spot. Whatever the change, I applaud its execution. (N.B. Ran likes to mention vistas of upcoming holes. The now unobstructed view from the 8th green offers a great look at the layout of #11).
Hole #9-Another hole in which objectivity escapes me. The substitution of the grand left side bunker seems to serve more as filler for the "dead space" in that area than anything else. I'll be interested to hear how much the increased runup shot option is used.
More to follow.
-
I played SP twice this week and Kyle Franz has transformed this course. Having the best grounds for golf in the Sandhills and with the help of old aerials he took advantage of Ross’s original routing expanding and reorienting greens and adding a bit of Kyle quirk. If you weren’t sure whether you like Pine Needles or MidPines better Southern Pines will surely confound you. This trio surely takes it place among the elite golf destinations in the country and surely the best deal as you don’t have to stay on site to play.
-
I played SP twice this week and Kyle Franz has transformed this course. Having the best grounds for golf in the Sandhills and with the help of old aerials he took advantage of Ross’s original routing expanding and reorienting greens and adding a bit of Kyle quirk. If you weren’t sure whether you like Pine Needles or MidPines better Southern Pines will surely confound you. This trio surely takes it place among the elite golf destinations in the country and surely the best deal as you don’t have to stay on site to play.
Jay,
I did an unexpected trip through the area over Thanksgiving '20. I stayed in Durham, but after playing Mid Pines, I wish I had stayed there. It felt "Old School" in a great way. I absolutely loved "The Cradle", but the Pinehurst Resort feels corporate, to me.
And then there is Pinecrest Inn. Perhaps, I should leave "the image" of Pinecrest in the words of a good friend, but I would like to stay there too...
I will be back!!
-
And then there is Pinecrest Inn. Perhaps, I should leave "the image" of Pinecrest in the words of a good friend, but I would like to stay there too...
I will be back!!
This isn't hyperbole, the best pork chop in America!
-
Jay, I know you've played SPCC often. Any particular changes you like/dislike?
The MP/SPCC/PN trifecta trumps any combo at PCC in my opinion. My partners on Saturday stayed at PN and did the three course package and thought it was an absolute steal.
My comments will continue after I unpack.
-
Eleventh hole is now spectacular. Large knob in front of #13 is bold and likely to be controversial but it really make you think and commit. Just an inverted scar bunker. Brilliant. A monumental transformation++++++
-
I had the good fortune to play Southern Pines yesterday with Jay Mickle as well as my son and a friend and we had a great time. The course is wonderful and the greens are right up there with the best. The course needs to grow in a bit but by next year I will venture to say that it will rival, if not surpass, both Pine Needles and Mid Pines as well as Pinehurst #4. I should warn those of you who are well along on their Medicare benefits as am I, that it is not an easy walk, especially when it was as hot as it was yesterday but I did survive. Oh, and one other thing, it is currently a real bargain and those of you who can should try to see it before they jack up the price.
-
Does Chris Buie still participate in the DG?
His take on the changes would be interesting. I assume he has played the "new" version.
-
Playing SP next Monday; can’t wait!
-
I'm playing Southern Pines Friday, assuming the weather cooperates. Very excited to see it.
-
Absolutely wonderful. Brilliant artistry by Franz, far exceeding my expectations, which were high anyway.
-
Absolutely wonderful. Brilliant artistry by Franz, far exceeding my expectations, which were high anyway.
Completely agree. It was fantastic; the greens were wild and really fun. I wish I could have played it again and definitely going to try to get another round there in December.
-
We just played MP, SP, and PN on three glorious fall days. It was our first time for SP. I am trying to sort it out. The elevation changes and accompanying views are far more dramatic and enchanting than I expected. The greens are even more dramatic in a good way--it would be great fun to pick hole locations. There are a number of wonderful holes--2, 4, 13, and 17 in particular. Yet, I did not find it quite compelling or coherent. The Par 3s other than 7 blended together even though each was quite attractive. 10, 15, and 16 all offered the same approach shot. 8 and 11 are visually stunning, but unless you are a long hitter who wants to take on risk, not that interesting strategically.
I definitely will go back, but the narratives at PN and MP remain more alluring.
Ira
-
We just played MP, SP, and PN on three glorious fall days. It was our first time for SP. I am trying to sort it out. The elevation changes and accompanying views are far more dramatic and enchanting than I expected. The greens are even more dramatic in a good way--it would be great fun to pick hole locations. There are a number of wonderful holes--2, 4, 13, and 17 in particular. Yet, I did not find it quite compelling or coherent. The Par 3s other than 7 blended together even though each was quite attractive. 10, 15, and 16 all offered the same approach shot. 8 and 11 are visually stunning, but unless you are a long hitter who wants to take on risk, not that interesting strategically.
I definitely will go back, but the narratives at PN and MP remain more alluring.
Ira
This post is what makes this site so terrific. A well reasoned somewhat contrarian perspective.
-
Southern Pines has been a favorite of mine since I first played it about 10 years ago, especially since moving to Charlotte in 2015. I try to get over to play it at least 2 to 3 times each year, and it has always been a pleasant and fun round. The routing is great, hole to hole rhythm has always been a strong suit, and the core design (the "bones") have always been there.
Yesterday was my first visit since all of the work has been done, and overall I came away very impressed, but also with a few questions.
First and foremost, I was struck by just how much the course was opened up through the substantial tree removal (it also seemed like many of the pines were limbed up, adding to the effect, but I could be wrong on that). The transformation, in that regard was stunning. The old hole corridors were fairly wide, but the added width is great. Far more striking are the many internal views across the course that you now have throughout the round. Starting as you crest the second fairway, and really kicking in on the fourth, views to the interior of the course, across 15, 10, 11, to the lake, it's just awesome. The fact that the turf will likely benefit tremendously from the added sunlight and airflow are probably an even bigger deal. It could just be that we were there after a good run of weather, but my friend and I both thought the turf seemed firmer throughout, from tee to green, and sometimes soggy conditions used to be one of the main issues we experienced.
Second, the reimagined bunkering, both fairways and around greens, added both aesthetically and strategically. There is no denying that the course now looks more dramatic, with added texture of the larger, more jagged bunkers, as well as the several sandy scrub "waste" areas that were added. Strategically, new or expanded sand/scrub impacted decisions on many holes, most notably 1, 2, 5, 6, 12, and 15. Another big net positive.
Third, I appreciated that many already strong holes were left "intact enough" to still shine, as they did before. The aforementioned tree clearing and bunkering added to these holes, allowing them to play as they should, in some cases a bit tougher, but in others offering even more choices than previously. The 8th hole is a great example of this. It's always been one of my favorites, and the fundamental strategy of the hole hasn't changed, but the much wider area of play tempts you in ways that previously did not exist. I used to always just play safely down the left center (to the best of my ability), leaving an approach from a good angle, only 120-140 into the hole. Yesterday, I took 4 wood over the right side bunker, even executing the shot I intended, but ended up with the lone remaining tree on the right hanging just over where I would have liked to fly my sand wedge. I tried the shot anyway, and hit it right into the overhanging limb. Frustration with that led me to try an aggressive pitch at a difficult flag, and my ball rolled off the back of the green. A chip and 2 putts later, I had my double, and realized I should have stuck to the strategy I had always employed previously. Temptation never fails to get me, though. I wonder if I will have the discipline to play a bit shorter and to the left next time. Beyond the 8th, so many holes still have the same fundamental strategy, but are even better now, with more options or more thought required - the 11th and 15th are two other really good examples.
So, having said all of that, I loved the end product. I did notice a few things that I was curious about, on a few greens and a few fairways. Simply stated, I thought some of the new (old?) features added to a few greens seemed excessive. The best example I can provide is the front right of the 2nd green, where there are 2 pretty big "ripples" that were unlike anything I can recall seeing before. They were sort of abrupt, sharper features that I didn't understand. I haven't seen anything like that before, on a Ross course, or elsewhere. Perhaps it was an old Ross design feature restored, or just a creative touch added by Kyle Franz, and like a few other "sharp" features I noticed on other greens, maybe they are intended to soften over time, after a few hundred passes by mowers and rollers. FWIW, I always love playing greens that have good, even big, internal contours. I generally like greens that push to the more extreme end of design. A few of these just seemed a bit out of character with the rest of the greens and most other Ross greens I have seen (admittedly, only 50-60 courses, and who knows exactly which were original Ross, if any).
The second thing I found was that a couple of the expanded or new sand and scrub areas along fairways may have gone a bit overboard. The most notable example of this was on the 12th. The expansion of the fairway bunker on the left made perfect sense and looked good too. The addition of a diagonal sandy scrub area starting outside right and cutting in toward the green, pinching in the landing area for big hitters also seemed a good add. However, these two areas are now connected in sort of a crescent now, meeting about 50(?) or so yards short of the green. First, I thought this really only came into play for lesser players, who might end up hitting a 3rd (or 4th) shot in from this approximate area. For better players, it should not come into play, and for shorter or less skilled players, it just makes a tough hole tougher. That is fine, but I also thought it looked odd.
Anyway, I was really happy to get back and see all of the great work already done to make a good course even better. As much as I love SP, I still don't think it quite beats MP or PN, but not unlike the Bandon courses (and Streamsong too), there's always lots to be discussed in each of our personal rankings. I can't wait to see the course again when the remaining (finishing, mostly, I think) work is completed. I love SP now more than ever, even if I have a few questions about the changes.
NB - the new par 3 hole was not open for play, but it looked very good. Also, the greens rolled really nicely, which was impressive after such recent work.
-
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.
https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/
-
Brian
I was there yesterday as well.
I can echo nearly everything you wrote.
Despite having attended multiple business meetings and seminars in and around Pinehurst, I've not played much golf in the area , other than the obligatory rounds at #2, #4 and The Cradle usually set up by the organzers of such events.
I played Mid Pines and Pine Needles years ago as well.
I did ride over to Southern Pines in late 2019 after just such a non golf conference, but it was extremely cold (33 degrees and windy and I just looked out from the clubhouse over a few holes)
I'm not sure if I regret walking the course or not after reading Matt's review above as at least don't have the nostalgia of what was there before conflicting me. (I tend to be over nostalgic and not particularly objective about renovations to courses I love with good bones-see my comments on Narin and Portnoo)
Edit:I played 18 Sunday and then came back and played 6 more late Tuesday
The greens and green surrounds were full of variety and interest and the course abounds with long views across the property.
The native sand areas, the formal bunkers and the mature pines (which evidently have undergone massive reduction and management)provide a very attractive feature of the course, and a great feel to the place,
Easily one of my favorites in the southeast-the terrain and the mature look of the place are remarkable.
Reminds me an enhanced version version of what Forest Hills in Augusta could've been before their multiple failed renovations/land swaps.
I do question why they would do all that terrific bunker work yet not have any rakes for the playes to clean up.Bunkers looked like a football game was played in each and every one.
There's no additional maintenance cost to this(rakes), and why absolve players of their responsibility and create future bad habits we see at so many munis.
Then the soft ,muddyish rye approaches in front eliminated any run up approaches and were basically unchippable or unpitchable with any lofted club.(note this was early November after a unseasonably cool snap-no doubt they will get better as they dry and the rye matures).
Curious why they would overseed these frontal approach areas(perhaps to hide scars of recent work)-the fairways in general were not overseeded.
The dormant bermuda surfaces elsewhere provided a wonderful crisp surface, though cart traffic made for thinnish and worn areas-great for a better player, perhaps tough for the average player.
Great improving bones-a work in progress, as newish sod which will remain dormant until late spring is abundant, and cart/foot traffic and pinch points won't help.
There is a downside to so much anticipation and great early reviews (in the form of traffic) while growing in and continuing a renovation.
The traffic from the positive reviews creates wear issues on mostly dormant surfaces and the expectations from the reviews may be higher than is fair, with many seeing the work before it has had a growing season to knit n.
But those are mere nit picks on such a wonderful course and project.
Once grown in and settled down, I could potentially see it as rivaling Palmetto for my favorite course in the southeast, and even surpassing it-assuming they don't becomes victimes of their own success and kill the vibe.
-
Brian
I was there yesterday as well.
I was also there yesterday (with Chris Buie) for a little twilight tour. We should have grabbed a beer.
Here are a few pics from the golden hour:
This is looking off to the left a bit from #1 fairway.
(https://i.imgur.com/ac9hFMUl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Z6APaS5l.jpg)
I think this angle is from an alternate back tee location- it looks like the tees were set up to the right.
(https://i.imgur.com/47Ty1Ucl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GNO8oYFl.jpg)
-
Brian
Curiius why they would overseed these.(perhaps to cover scars of recent work)
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
-
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.
https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/ (https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/)
Good article, Matt. Thanks for posting. I have not yet played the renovated edition of SP when I look at some of pics that have been posted all I see is sand!
-
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.
https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/ (https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/)
Good article, Matt. Thanks for posting. I have not yet played the renovated edition of SP when I look at some of pics that have been posted all I see is sand!
Thanks JP! Ironically the MP/PN/SP Twitter account @PineNeedlesGolf posted before and after photos of Hole 11 today and I replied with two of my own photos of that hole while stating, "The transformation of the 11th hole at SP is by far and away the best of the entire project!" In other words, there are great aspects to the project, I'm just not a fan of the whole.
-
Playing Southern Pines next week. Saw the before so anxious to see the after. Liked the before a lot. Hope and expect to be impressed. Sometimes it is hard to just do touch up and not go too far.
-
"The transformation of the 11th hole at SP is by far and away the best of the entire project!" In other words, there are great aspects to the project, I'm just not a fan of the whole.
+1
Thanks for your candor. I'm of a like mind.
My first attempt at sharing photos so I ask your forgiveness if the below link is useless. Most photos are from Sep 10 of this year. Some are during the reno in March. Others are just "before" pics.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/albums/72157720134839557 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/albums/72157720134839557)
-
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
-
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
I actually buy that reasoning.
It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.
It's not the kind of people that post on this website, of course, but we're the minority.
-
Brian
Curiius why they would overseed these.(perhaps to cover scars of recent work)
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
The starter gave exactly the same response. Cart path only for 5 weeks or so. Cost 40k.
-
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
I actually buy that reasoning.
It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.
It's not the kind of people that post on this website, of course, but we're the minority.
At this point, and given the level of play at SPCC, I don't think it's under the radar anymore. I've played the MP/PN/SP group a lot, often with visitors. The most frequent complaint is that it's too wet. I've never heard anyone say that it's great to play on something green. I understand the reasoning but it's based on opinions from an earlier era. Anyway, if green is important, there's always paint.
-
The look completed looks terrific...I can't wait to get down there and play it. Kyle's work at PN and MP was so spectacular and enjoyable for me I'd be shocked if I don't enjoy the "new" SP.
-
It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.
Sadly this is very much the reality. I was the HP at a course in the area for several years and the fact is if you want substantial business in the Spring, you must overseed.
Most of your Spring business comes from the North and after staring at brown all Winter, seeing green golf courses is very important to them. Painting is an option, but not as easy as it sounds.
There is lots competition for package business in Pinehurst and overseeding is something that is here to stay because ultimately your average golfer cares more about green grass than wet conditions and CPO for several weeks.
-
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
Seems that the turf grass experts at the USGA had PN stop over seeding last year and this year in order to insure the best possible playing conditions for the Women's Open in June. All of the Bermuda greens get pigments which if wanted to green up the courses have the benefit of being able to include accelerators to green up early Bermuda and pre-emergents to kill off weeds. This with the benefit of being cheaper and not having a transition where the rye overseed has to be killed while the Bermuda is retarded. The era of area courses being a 2 season affair are past, courses here are busy 11 months of the year.
In addition to all of the Pinehurst courses that don't over seed you can add Dormie, CCNC, Mid South and most, if not all, of the other top courses in the area. Winter would seem to be a great time to work on maintenance issues around the courses. Watering and mowing instead???
-
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
I agree Craig! Seems like a patented answer to blame snow birds. I would be interesting to see data on the subject.
Ciao
-
I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.
I agree Craig! Seems like a patented answer to blame snow birds. I would be interesting to see data on the subject.
Ciao
I like the way the dormant Bermuda grass plays and find it’s color to be a non issue. I don’t recall a conversation whereby anyone has complained about the lack of “green” or that conditions were poor as a result. I’m not a snowbird but rather live year round in the Northeast.
-
Saddened to see the "new" SPCC apparently opens next week. Highest green fee I've ever seen for one of my favorite courses. I chose to deny the inevitable rate hike but still surprised by the percentage of the increase.
I wonder if they wanted to stay on Golf.com's best under $150 for another year.
Just bummed about it. Rant over.
P.S. Yes, I will still p(l)ay it when in Pinehurst
-
8) Well, that's life as a retail golfer... I can remember something like $40 and not much if anything for the replay... of course that was 30-40 years ago... ::)
-
November thru February, $85 to play Monday thru Thursday, even the weekend is $95.
Are these not updated? https://www.southernpinesgolfclub.com/courses/ (https://www.southernpinesgolfclub.com/courses/)
P.S. For $95 in 2022, 30 years ago that would be $47, 40 years ago only $32. What am I missing?
-
Kalen,
Feb. 16-$55
Feb. 17-$145
:(
-
The tree removal on the left side of number 11 really opens and changes the look of the hole. It’s up there for driver/pitch holes.
-
$145 is still a steal.
-
The Winter rate used to be in effect through March 1st. Tobacco Road did the same thing.
-
$145 is still a steal.
I know I am getting old, but, really? A steal?
What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?
-
Tough to get a tee time online. Anyone have ideas for a late April booking?
-
$145 is still a steal.
I know I am getting old, but, really? A steal?
What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?
I suppose it is all relative but the 2 other courses under the same ownership will be in excess of $200 this spring with accompanied guest rates of $130. I recall other resorts charging the same for all venues, in that regard $145 is a "steal".
-
$145 is still a steal.
I know I am getting old, but, really? A steal?
What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?
In a vacuum, $145 seems pretty crazy for a round of golf almost anywhere.
When looking at what other courses charge, though, Southern Pines for $145 is a steal. There are public courses here in Atlanta that charge $90+ for a round, and there are a lot of Myrtle Beach courses charging $150+. Considering how good Southern Pines is, it's understandable what they're charging.
$195 is the highest price point for Southern Pines -- Streamsong is $379 for non-resort guests. While I'm sure the Streamsong courses are better, it's very unlikely that they're nearly $200 a round better.
EDIT: I only went with Streamsong because Pinehurst CC doesn't post their rates (at least as far as I know), but I believe #4 is over $300 at peak. I like #4, but Southern Pines is better.
-
The fact is that the Pinehurst resort is driving up the price of the other courses in the area. I haven't checked lately but #2 is probably over $400 and #4 is probably close behind. Pine Needles is hosting a championship this year and the word has gotten out that SP could be in the best in the area second only to #2.
So far as Ireland is concerned what are Ballybunion and Lahinch charging - I would think that Rosapenna should be just shy of them until it becomes part of the US money rotation.
-
$145 is still a steal.
I know I am getting old, but, really? A steal?
What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?
My point is simply that this is the United States with 7.5% inflation in one of the most golf-heavy neighbourhoods in the US. The new Southern Pines is at worst a Doak 7. I'd pay $145 for SP over $250 for No. 4. Ireland is irrelevant as they're not a competing golf course. My take anyway.
-
The fact is that the Pinehurst resort is driving up the price of the other courses in the area. I haven't checked lately but #2 is probably over $400 and #4 is probably close behind. Pine Needles is hosting a championship this year and the word has gotten out that SP could be in the best in the area second only to #2.
So far as Ireland is concerned what are Ballybunion and Lahinch charging - I would think that Rosapenna should be just shy of them until it becomes part of the US money rotation.
The other part of this is that Pinehurst Resort is limiting outside play. Recently the change was made that you had to stay at the Resort to play #2 or #4 (if you didn't know a member) and I've heard that #6-#9 are going to fall under that rule pretty soon. So then you have a trickle-down effect to Mid Pines and Pine Needles with more demand from people that don't want to stay at the Resort, and now Southern Pines since they are all owned by the same group. You might be shocked to see the peak rates at Tobacco Road too.
-
The inflation of green fees in North America and GBI has been going on well before the current inflation. I'm no longer surprised by the high fees.
I've been playing a lot more no name Doak 3's the last few years and like to look for courses that I think might be considered for a ""Yank award"
-
$145 is still a steal.
For us old guys, does anyone remember what they payed to play a very good course in 1980? If it was around $28 would you consider it a steal? Well that’s the same as $145 today. I think $145 is going to look pretty good 12 months from now if we keep averaging 7% monthly inflation.
-
I played the golf course in early December and I saw a course that was going through the normal issues post renovation such as grown in, tweaking the drainage, figuring out where carts should go on sand cart paths, and bunker facing. In December it wasn't anything close to a Doak seven and I have my doubts that it will some day be a seven but I'll hold judgement on that number or any number for another year.
The inflation points justifying the green fees as reasonable are bogus. The biggest drivers of long term inflation (until very recently) have been healthcare and higher education. Over the long term inflation has been kept in check and in some limited short term cases there has been price stagnation or even deflation due to advances in technology leading to productivity gains.
The market value of the green fees are determined by the local market conditions. I personally think $145 is high but if they can get it then good for them.
-
The market value of the green fees are determined by the local market conditions. I personally think $145 is high but if they can get it then good for them.
I think that's the point people are making. When you look at the price of public golf in large markets (I'd consider Pinehurst a large market specifically for golf due to the number of travelers) around the country, $145 for a course of Southern Pines' quality is a pretty good deal. Most places in the US don't have any public courses that are remotely as good.
-
My family did not subside golf.
Now, if I was a youngster, and living in the Pinehurst area, I never would have never had the means to take up the game.
-
I can’t imagine a better deal than the Winter rate at MP, PN and SP. I recently got back from a trip that also included Tobacco Road on the last day and will stick with the Ross courses next time around. After a couple of plays the last few years at TR I much prefer the other three.
-
My family did not subside golf.
Now, if I was a youngster, and living in the Pinehurst area, I never would have never had the means to take up the game.
You definitely could -- there are still $30-40 golf courses in Pinehurst (at least during the winter... maybe not during the high season, although I don't know).
You just wouldn't be able to play at some of the better public courses in the country, which is a problem, but that's not unique to Pinehurst. It's a problem just about everywhere.
-
You could walk either course at Whispering Pines tomorrow for $32 or walk 18 (twice around) at Midland for $20
-
You could walk either course at Whispering Pines tomorrow for $32 or walk 18 (twice around) at Midland for $20
I was going to play Midland mid afternoon after Pine Needles and the tee was stacked up. Between the resort and Midland there is something that should suit everybody’s taste and wallet in the area.
-
Saddened to see the "new" SPCC apparently opens next week. Highest green fee I've ever seen for one of my favorite courses. I chose to deny the inevitable rate hike but still surprised by the percentage of the increase.
I wonder if they wanted to stay on Golf.com's best under $150 for another year.
Just bummed about it. Rant over.
P.S. Yes, I will still p(l)ay it when in Pinehurst
I guess I have to amend this. Golf.com's best under $150 will no longer include SPCC.
I will still play it but probably only December through February (it has become my pre-Super Bowl round the last four years). This is a gut punch for me.
I've never blinked at paying and playing at MP or PN but Southern Pines was always "that place" that combined value, history, challenge, and enjoyment. I doubt I will ever think the "renovation" of SPCC worthy of its current green fees.
P.S. I hope SPCC thrives. If/when the Little 9 is realized, I'll be in the initial line to play.
-
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
-
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.
-
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.
I was just there last week and not only is the work done, it's hard to tell from how well everything is grown in that it had just recently been redone. The greens are a bit firmer than they might be in a year or two, but no extreme firmness like I've experienced on other new courses. Some of the waste areas need a bit of roughing up so that they look more natural and I'm sure that they'll be planting more wire grass in a lot of these areas. But the course seemed to be an almost complete version of what it will be.
I had never played Southern Pines before the restoration but I was surprised by how different it was from its sister courses Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It's quite difficult--a lot of severity on and around the greens. The thing that really sticks out, which someone mentioned either earlier in this thread or another, is how many false fronts there are. There must be a dozen greens with false fronts, several quite severe. It makes some sense that you'd have this because the property is quite hilly and many of the greens are perched into hillsides. You really have to hit your irons well here--you'll be hitting a lot of (semi-)blind pitch shots if you're not.
The greens also have a lot of contour--more than any I've played in the area except Tobacco Road.
They've restored a lost, short par 3 between the 4th and 5th holes. It was in play at the expense of the short par 4 11th, where they were doing maintenance. Too bad--11 looked to me like the best hole on the course. Here are some pictures:
The restored 'lost' hole:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51925784421_567c860545_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7vdDc)
The approach into the par 4 8th. Apparently the pond was obscured by trees:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51926421105_e3d95b38dc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7ytUv)
The short par 4 11th. Looks like a great hole; unfortunately it was closed that day for maintenance:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51924817212_7a7e84fe30_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7qg8b)
I really liked the 17th green. It had simpler surroundings (like what you'd find around most of the greens at no. 2 or Mid Pines) and was a nice change of pace from the severe edges:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51925793726_e1f0cae178_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7vgpC)
-
The 11th is so different. So good too. Even 10 is different with the trees removed down the left side (and thinned on the right, I think).
-
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.
I was just there last week and not only is the work done, it's hard to tell from how well everything is grown in that it had just recently been redone. The greens are a bit firmer than they might be in a year or two, but no extreme firmness like I've experienced on other new courses. Some of the waste areas need a bit of roughing up so that they look more natural and I'm sure that they'll be planting more wire grass in a lot of these areas. But the course seemed to be an almost complete version of what it will be.
I had never played Southern Pines before the restoration but I was surprised by how different it was from its sister courses Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It's quite difficult--a lot of severity on and around the greens. The thing that really sticks out, which someone mentioned either earlier in this thread or another, is how many false fronts there are. There must be a dozen greens with false fronts, several quite severe. It makes some sense that you'd have this because the property is quite hilly and many of the greens are perched into hillsides. You really have to hit your irons well here--you'll be hitting a lot of (semi-)blind pitch shots if you're not.
The greens also have a lot of contour--more than any I've played in the area except Tobacco Road.
They've restored a lost, short par 3 between the 4th and 5th holes. It was in play at the expense of the short par 4 11th, where they were doing maintenance. Too bad--11 looked to me like the best hole on the course. Here are some pictures:
The restored 'lost' hole:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51925784421_567c860545_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7vdDc)
The approach into the par 4 8th. Apparently the pond was obscured by trees:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51926421105_e3d95b38dc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7ytUv)
The short par 4 11th. Looks like a great hole; unfortunately it was closed that day for maintenance:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51924817212_7a7e84fe30_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7qg8b)
I really liked the 17th green. It had simpler surroundings (like what you'd find around most of the greens at no. 2 or Mid Pines) and was a nice change of pace from the severe edges:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51925793726_e1f0cae178_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n7vgpC)
Brett-
I played SPGC in January and I think your assessment is spot-on. I didn't expect so many false fronts and like you said many of them are quite severe, too severe in my opinion. I also thought there were a few greens where the contouring was over the top. If you get those particular greens running any more than 10-10.5 it could get ugly. Overall I liked the course but also found it pretty difficult, certainly more difficult than it was pre-restoration.
Great pics by the way!
-
"Overall I liked the course but also found it pretty difficult, certainly more difficult than it was pre-restoration." JPBlain.
I certainly think this is true. That and the (anticipated) increased green fees have been in my head the last five times I've played SPCC-twice just before renovation, one during, and two post-reno. The tree removal is spectacular but the new "native" areas and greenside bunkers seem too penal to me for most players. Is it sacrilege to now say Mid Pines is the easiest of the triumvirate?
Last month I brought my latest newbie (@ just $55) to SPCC and he was talking about how cool the greens were by the time we hit the fifth tee. In the parking lot, he thanked me for showing him the place. I honestly don't know if he'd say the same after a $180 bill.
P.S. my photos post-reno are (hopefully) in post #31.
-
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
As for Mid Pines being the easiest, it has always played harder than Pine Needles. Mini tour scores at MP were 3 shots higher than PN despite being 400 yards shorter. The explanation would be that MidPines was designed as a tournament course and Pine Needles was designed as a resort course. Of course your results may differ.
-
$145 is still a steal.
For us old guys, does anyone remember what they payed to play a very good course in 1980? If it was around $28 would you consider it a steal? Well that’s the same as $145 today. I think $145 is going to look pretty good 12 months from now if we keep averaging 7% monthly inflation.
$28.00 1980 dollars is about $88.00 2022 dollars. The average annual US inflation rate for 1980-2020 was 2.9%. I would be surprised if the average annual US inflation rate exceeds 3% over the next 10 years.
-
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
Jay,
Thanks for the clarification. To me, it felt more like one of the holes that you'd see on these new par 3 courses rather than Ross, so I'm glad that my intuition is tracking something.
As to the price, an important thing to note about the Pine Needles family of courses is that they have good replay rates. I paid $150 to play Mid Pines and $125 for Southern Pines at the beginning of March, but the replay rate at each was only $60. I always try to play 36 holes when I'm playing a new course and I get very happy when the replay rate is below 50% of the original.
One issue: they don't give you the replay rate if you're mixing courses on one day. I would have had to have paid $195 to play Pine Needles after I played Mid Pines in the morning. I told the guys behind the counter at both Mid Pines and Southern Pines that they should extend the replay rates to the other courses.
On comparing PN, MP, and SP, my preference comes out pretty clearly in that order. On my visit in 2019, I preferred PN to MP, but it was close and I only played the former once. Now I've seen each of them two more times and I'm completely convinced about PN>MP. The variety of the terrain at PN is just so good and really plays an important role in the driving. Take the 6th hole, which doesn't seem to be one of anyones' favorites. This is an outstanding driving hole. It's semi-blind over the bunker on the left but if you hedge right, your ball will take the slope to the right and leave a blind second. But if you stay left and either pull it or go to far, you have tree trouble. The aesthetically pleasing drive on 12 seems easy up and over the hill but if you hit even a slight pull, the ground takes your ball toward the waste area on the left.
To be fair, the terrain at MP plays an important role in the driving game. Shaping your drives correctly on 12, 14, and 15 will really help you. But it's a bit less interesting and I felt that there was less variety in the holes at MP than PN. I also like the greens at PN a bit more than MP. They're larger and the middles tend not to be heavily contoured. But the edges are. And this introduces a lot of flexibility in to how difficult the course can play. It's not too hard if you put the pins in the middle but it becomes quite difficult if you put them at the edges. The edges of the greens at PN are clearly second to no. 2 for me (although not nearly that good).
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was surprised by the difficulty of SP and how different it was from PN and MP. To me, the false fronts are overdone. There are far too many of them and several are severe (2, 4, 9, 15, 18). I felt like I was hitting the same shot into most of the greens so it really lost variety points with me. The greens are more heavily contoured and on their own, I like them. But the combination of the severe edges and the heavily contoured greens was a bit much. I wish that a few more of the greens had been toned down, like that on 17 in my above picture.
-
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
As for Mid Pines being the easiest, it has always played harder than Pine Needles. Mini tour scores at MP were 3 shots higher than PN despite being 400 yards shorter. The explanation would be that MidPines was designed as a tournament course and Pine Needles was designed as a resort course. Of course your results may differ.
Thanks for the info Jay. The MP/PN score data is surprising to me.
-
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
As for Mid Pines being the easiest, it has always played harder than Pine Needles. Mini tour scores at MP were 3 shots higher than PN despite being 400 yards shorter. The explanation would be that MidPines was designed as a tournament course and Pine Needles was designed as a resort course. Of course your results may differ.
Thanks for the info Jay. The MP/PN score data is surprising to me.
Two notes on this:
1. I was told by the CGA that the three courses in the Carolinas that have PCC adjustments the most are Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Tobacco Road. Tobacco Road I think we can all understand, MP and PN playing to that level of difficulty for scoring is pure Donald Ross, because it just doesn't "feel" like that when you are playing.
2. Several weeks ago, I played a two-day tournament at Mid Pines and Pine Needles, one day on each course. (Philip Hensley also played, though among a MUCH younger and better group of golfers!) There was a +3 PCC adjustment to the scores each day; I've not seen anything like that since the PCC became part of the handicap procedure. Even +1 is very rare, and I'm not sure if I've had a +2, much less a +3.
One other personal observation about the three courses. My personal ranking, I think would be SP/MP/PN; I am a BIG fan of the work at Southern Pines: I am NOT a fan of what has been done at Pine Needles to get ready for the Open this year. The planting of pampas grass all over the place, down the side of fairways to greatly narrow landing areas, at both ends of fairway bunkers, and so on, introduces an element of randomness that is just off-putting, at least to me. I don't know how much of this has been dictated by the USGA, and of course don't know if all of it will stay after the Open, but it just seems...wrong.
-
Very interesting A.G. Thanks. I had not heard about the changes at PN. It's very rare that I play there.
"MP and PN playing to that level of difficulty for scoring is pure Donald Ross, because it just doesn't "feel" like that when you are playing." My sentiments exactly re: MP-I just couldn't articulate it as well as you did.
-
I have played the "new" Southern Pines Golf Club several times and have the following observations.
It is, in fact, a challenging and difficult course for the reasons mentioned above by others. A strong player may be misled by the fact that it is relatively short playing a little over 6300yards from the back tee. I think it plays longer because of the elevation changes and the elevated greens on many holes.
It may be challenging for a strong player, but it is downright hard for a middle or high handicapper. Aside from the many false fronts and severe greens, there are the difficult greenside bunkers. Many bunkers are located well below the green leaving a long uphill sand shot that nobody plays well, especially average and below golfers. In addition the sand is soft and not well maintained.
I love the course, but it is no picnic. Be sure and bring your rangefinder, because there are next to no yardage markers.
-
I am NOT a fan of what has been done at Pine Needles to get ready for the Open this year. The planting of pampas grass all over the place, down the side of fairways to greatly narrow landing areas, at both ends of fairway bunkers, and so on, introduces an element of randomness that is just off-putting, at least to me. I don't know how much of this has been dictated by the USGA, and of course don't know if all of it will stay after the Open, but it just seems...wrong.
I can understand this view but I actually liked the addition of clumps of wiregrass because without them, it's pretty easy to play out of those sandy waste areas. I remember back when they restored no.2 c.2011 that they talked about how the sandy waste areas should be a crapshoot--you could get a very good lie in the bare sand or almost have to take an unplayable if you get under one of those clumps in the wrong way.
I think that the amount of wiregrass in the sandy waste areas at PN right now creates just the right amount of balance. You usually get a good lie, but will occasionally have a borderline unplayable one. They're definitely creating a few of the latter right now, but my understanding is that this is always how it was supposed to be. You shouldn't hit it there. And this shouldn't be a problem at PN because it isn't too narrow...unless you get too aggressive with your drives.
-
Two notes on this:
1. I was told by the CGA that the three courses in the Carolinas that have PCC adjustments the most are Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Tobacco Road. Tobacco Road I think we can all understand, MP and PN playing to that level of difficulty for scoring is pure Donald Ross, because it just doesn't "feel" like that when you are playing.
I played TR, MP, and PN just last week. I never see PCC adjustments when I post a score. However, there was one for each of these courses. So, it was really interesting to me that I ran across your comment.
-
How does the PCC calculation work in the US where a day’s rounds are generally played by a non-organised field?
Here in Australia, scores for handicapping typically have to be submitted as part of an organised competition, so the entire field gets finalised as one and entered into the handicapping software at the same time. As I understand the PCC calculation, that makes sense in terms of determining any necessary adjustment to the scratch rating via the PCC.
Is there a deadline by which scores have to be entered in the US and the PCC isn’t calculated until then?
-
How does the PCC calculation work in the US where a day’s rounds are generally played by a non-organised field?
Here in Australia, scores for handicapping typically have to be submitted as part of an organised competition, so the entire field gets finalised as one and entered into the handicapping software at the same time. As I understand the PCC calculation, that makes sense in terms of determining any necessary adjustment to the scratch rating via the PCC.
Is there a deadline by which scores have to be entered in the US and the PCC isn’t calculated until then?
Scott,
I trust that someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that the PCC adjustment is an algorithm that adjusts the differentials if either the course or weather conditions “significantly impact players’ performance”. There isn’t any connection between the PCC adjustments and whether or not it’s a competition vs casual play, except that it is certainly easier to get good data from a field of players who all have indexes.
Three examples from my own recent rounds: A round at my club on a day when the course was absolutely soaked was adjusted; this was “non-organized” play. A tournament round in 30 mph winds was adjusted by 2 shots. And our practice rounds at Pine Needles and Mid Pines were adjusted by 1 shot, while the actual tournament rounds were adjusted by 3 shots. The weather was fine all three days, but the courses are HARD, and golfers just shoot high scores on those two tracks.
As to the other question, I don’t think it matters when a player enters the score; if the algorithm has kicked in and made an adjustment for that course on that day, the player’s differential would adjust automatically.
-
My question is not competition vs casual, that’s just the mechanism by which in one situation the day’s cards are all entered as one vs cards being entered gradually over whatever period of time.
Given it’s the actual scores of the day themselves that determine any PCC adjustment, I was curious about how it’s managed where say four or five groups worth of players don’t enter their score for a week, you could encounter a situation where there goes from a PCC of zero to one of 2 based on those scores being added to the calculation.
I would assume there must be a cutoff by which you have to have entered your score for it to count and there’s no PCC determined or handicap adjustment made until that time?
-
My question is not competition vs casual, that’s just the mechanism by which in one situation the day’s cards are all entered as one vs cards being entered gradually over whatever period of time.
Given it’s the actual scores of the day themselves that determine any PCC adjustment, I was curious about how it’s managed where say four or five groups worth of players don’t enter their score for a week, you could encounter a situation where there goes from a PCC of zero to one of 2 based on those scores being added to the calculation.
I would assume there must be a cutoff by which you have to have entered your score for it to count and there’s no PCC determined or handicap adjustment made until that time?
I don’t know the answer to this. But I have seen a PCC adjustment show up several days after I posted my score from a non-organized round. I can’t think of any reason the algorithm and adjustment would have a deadline, but maybe somebody else knows the definitive answer to this.
-
I don’t know the answer to this. But I have seen a PCC adjustment show up several days after I posted my score from a non-organized round. I can’t think of any reason the algorithm and adjustment would have a deadline, but maybe somebody else knows the definitive answer to this.
Only scores posted that day (by midnight) are used to determine the PCC.
That is why it is important that players submit their scores the day they play:
https://www.whs.com/articles/2019/playing-conditions-calculation.html (https://www.whs.com/articles/2019/playing-conditions-calculation.html)
See also 4.3 here:
https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html (https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html)
A player should submit their score as soon as possible on the day of play, after completion of their round, and before midnight (local time).
If a player does not submit their score on the day of play:Their Handicap Index will not be updated in time for the next day (see Rule 5.4 Frequency of Revision of a Handicap Index Update), and[/q]
- Their score will not be included in the daily playing conditions calculation (PCC) (see Rule 5.6 Playing Conditions Calculation).
- When a score is posted to the player’s scoring record after the day of play and the PCC for the day the round was played has already been performed, the PCC adjustment should still be applied to the player’s Score Differential calculation even though the player's score was not included in the PCC.
- If a score is submitted out of sequence:The score should be added to the player’s scoring record in the correct chronological order.
- The published PCC adjustment for the golf course played, on the day the round was played, should be applied to the Score Differential calculation.
- The player’s Handicap Index should be recalculated.
- Note: The Handicap Committee should investigate any repeated occurrence of a player failing to submit a score in a timely manner (see Rule 7.1 Handicap Committee).
If there is no evidence that the player has acted for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, all scores submitted in the intervening period should stand for handicap purposes.
-
I don’t know the answer to this. But I have seen a PCC adjustment show up several days after I posted my score from a non-organized round. I can’t think of any reason the algorithm and adjustment would have a deadline, but maybe somebody else knows the definitive answer to this.
Only scores posted that day (by midnight) are used to determine the PCC.
That is why it is important that players submit their scores the day they play:
https://www.whs.com/articles/2019/playing-conditions-calculation.html (https://www.whs.com/articles/2019/playing-conditions-calculation.html)
See also 4.3 here:
https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html (https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html)
A player should submit their score as soon as possible on the day of play, after completion of their round, and before midnight (local time).
If a player does not submit their score on the day of play:Their Handicap Index will not be updated in time for the next day (see Rule 5.4 Frequency of Revision of a Handicap Index Update), and[/q]
- Their score will not be included in the daily playing conditions calculation (PCC) (see Rule 5.6 Playing Conditions Calculation).
- When a score is posted to the player’s scoring record after the day of play and the PCC for the day the round was played has already been performed, the PCC adjustment should still be applied to the player’s Score Differential calculation even though the player's score was not included in the PCC.
- If a score is submitted out of sequence:The score should be added to the player’s scoring record in the correct chronological order.
- The published PCC adjustment for the golf course played, on the day the round was played, should be applied to the Score Differential calculation.
- The player’s Handicap Index should be recalculated.
- Note: The Handicap Committee should investigate any repeated occurrence of a player failing to submit a score in a timely manner (see Rule 7.1 Handicap Committee).
If there is no evidence that the player has acted for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, all scores submitted in the intervening period should stand for handicap purposes.
Excellent; thanks,
-
Thanks Erik!
-
We just played MP, SP, and PN on three glorious fall days. It was our first time for SP. I am trying to sort it out. The elevation changes and accompanying views are far more dramatic and enchanting than I expected. The greens are even more dramatic in a good way--it would be great fun to pick hole locations. There are a number of wonderful holes--2, 4, 13, and 17 in particular. Yet, I did not find it quite compelling or coherent. The Par 3s other than 7 blended together even though each was quite attractive. 10, 15, and 16 all offered the same approach shot. 8 and 11 are visually stunning, but unless you are a long hitter who wants to take on risk, not that interesting strategically.
I definitely will go back, but the narratives at PN and MP remain more alluring.
Ira
Apologies for bumping my own post, but we just had another glorious three fall days at MP, PN, and SP (one of these days our luck with weather will run out). After some reflection (“some” is the deepest I go), I stand by my post about SP with a few amendments. On a second play, I appreciate the strategy on Number 8 and would add Number 18 to the list of good holes—it is a very awkward tee shot in a good way because of how the fairway cambers with a green complex that caps off the others appropriately. My other amendment though is that the green contours on Number 2 fooled me into thinking that it is a better hole than it is; conversely, Number 5 is a better Par 5 largely because of the angle of the green with the fall off left.
At the end of the day, MP and PN remain a coin flip for me with SP not quite at the same level of appreciation.
Ira
PS The high point of our visit was getting to join Jay Mickle on the Mickle Patio at MP for drinks.
-
Ira,
I played the MP, PN and SP trio last month. In regards to the 18th at Southern Pines, one of the guys in my group who can't hit a draw to save his life played a fade down the 1st fairway. Just need to be far enough left to be able to get approach over the trees between the holes. We only played the course once, not sure if this is a viable strategy long-term.
I've played Mid Pines 3 times now, and continue to score worse each round. The greens are extremely challenging to read in my opinion, a lot more slope than meets the eye. I found the greens at Southern Pines much easier to read, and granted there is probably more contour to them, but there are distinct tiers where the ball can stop.
Tyler
-
I played MP, PN, and SP in the last three days. MP was my favorite because of the intimate routing, the wonderful bunkering, and feeling that decisions were needed often.
PN was quite open and less interesting for my game.
SP needs some maturing before I would give my truest opinion. I felt that it was bordering on goofy.
I had the most fun at MP and scored best at SP.
It’s hard to believe that I had never been to Pinehurst. It is indeed the Cradle of golf in America.