Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on June 07, 2021, 03:46:00 PM
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There has been a change in the wind for golf resorts. It has been going on for some twenty years, maybe longer. Competition is fierce and golf resorts have changed dramatically. It used to be that a golf resort could survive with one course. Some still do like Bedford Springs, the Sagamore or Sentry World. But most of those resorts are more than golf.
Newer resorts, however, have at least two courses. We all know about Pinehurst and Bandon. Gamble Sands is opening a 14-hole short second course. Circling Raven, Coeur D'Alene each has only one, but they are more than golf. Many stay there for other reasons.
Forest Dunes had one course for years but a few years ago opened the Loop. Boyne, the grandfather of Midwest resort golf, has ten!
Streamsong opened with two courses and added a third. Sand Valley has 2 courses and short a course
Some without lodging, have stay and play packages. They have a relationship with hotels, but they really are not a full-service resort. I live at one. We are member owned and have one golf course, mt biking, lake, and skiing, but no resort owned lodging.
Are there new trends on the horizon?
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Tommy,
Would you consider the Dormie Club a resort trend?
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It would be interesting to see how much of the revenue share goes to the very high end, golf-centric resorts like Bandon, Pinehurst, Pebble, Cabot, Streamsong, Sand Valley, etc? I would bet that these types of resorts are taking an increasing share of wallet from the more mid-market resorts. Of course, there are a lot more of these in recent years as, of the resorts I listed, only Pinehurst and Pebble have been around for more than 25 years.
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Tommy,
Would you consider the Dormie Club a resort trend?
I thought about that. In a way Dormie is a resort with six courses you join.
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I currently play almost everyday at a resort course that only allows members to tee off before 9:30 am. It is the most perfect setup I have ever enjoyed.
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The resort where I live only gets about 15,000 rounds a year. I really don't need a tee time. We'd go under if skiing didn't pay the freight. I wonder what it is like for some of those golf/ski resorts in northern Michigan. I remember asking the former GM at Copper Mt in CO why they built such a lousy golf course. His answer was simple; "It was cost efficient." I wonder if the courses at Keystone pay their way.
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
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There is no question that Covid has impacted demand at desirable US golf places. Bandon is almost completely full for 2022. But I do also think that the success of Bandon has created a "rota" of destinations for golfers who either are belt notchers or serious golf architecture fans or both (they are not mutually exclusive) with substantial disposable income. Bandon, Cabot, NC Sandhills, Sand Valley, Kohler, Streamsong. Having said that, those resorts represent a very small fraction of resort travel so I doubt it is a meaningful trend in the real economy even if it is for us.
Ira
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The "1 + 1 = 3" equation observed re: Bandon Dunes is well established, but I think it has ended up causing some single-course facilities/resorts to become somewhat underrated. I totally understand the impulse of traveling golfers to want to play as many different courses as they have days for a trip when they go somewhere.
At the same time, it's awfully nice to get to know one golf course over the course of a couple/few days. Among the places I've been, the Abaco Club in the Bahamas has just one course, but I don't really think it suffers as a result since the course is one you'd want to play every day for several days. When I was on a media trip in Ireland a few summers ago, the goal was obviously to show us writers a variety of courses - Lahinch, Doonbeg, Dooks, Killarney, Tralee - but I found myself thinking that if I were to return on my own, I would be crazy not to spend multiple days at Lahinch and multiple days at Dooks. Courses like them deserve multiple plays.
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but I found myself thinking that if I were to return on my own, I would be crazy not to spend multiple days at Lahinch and multiple days at Dooks. Courses like them deserve multiple plays.
After playing so many courses in GB&I I do that very thing. I will spend four or five days at The European Club, which is one of my most favorite places to be. Years ago I joined RND and Saunton as an overseas member and would be there a week. I love getting to meet local members and playing in some of the member competitions. It is a great way to go.
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The "1 + 1 = 3" equation observed re: Bandon Dunes is well established, but I think it has ended up causing some single-course facilities/resorts to become somewhat underrated. I totally understand the impulse of traveling golfers to want to play as many different courses as they have days for a trip when they go somewhere.
At the same time, it's awfully nice to get to know one golf course over the course of a couple/few days. Among the places I've been, the Abaco Club in the Bahamas has just one course, but I don't really think it suffers as a result since the course is one you'd want to play every day for several days. When I was on a media trip in Ireland a few summers ago, the goal was obviously to show us writers a variety of courses - Lahinch, Doonbeg, Dooks, Killarney, Tralee - but I found myself thinking that if I were to return on my own, I would be crazy not to spend multiple days at Lahinch and multiple days at Dooks. Courses like them deserve multiple plays.
Yes. The down side of all these big places is that people play them all and don’t get to know any of the courses very well - so then their reviews are mostly just what they think they are supposed to say. Of course maybe that is part of the formula?
I have been amazed what a low % of golfers go to The Loop and only play the Red or Black course and can’t stay long enough to play the other one.
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Yes. The down side of all these big places is that people play them all and don’t get to know any of the courses very well - so then their reviews are mostly just what they think they are supposed to say. Of course maybe that is part of the formula?
I have been amazed what a low % of golfers go to The Loop and only play the Red or Black course and can’t stay long enough to play the other one.
Many of us are belt notchers. It took me a long time to throw the belt away.
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
I am moving to the Pinehurst area and was considering membership at Pinehurst CC until talking to several members who advised against it.
They said tee times are hard to get, you are always paired up with someone you dont know, so going out on your own for a late evening nine is out of the question.
Unfortunately that trend seems to flow over onto the Pine Needles group as well.
I appreciate that the resort traffic keeps the member dues at a lower rate, but is that worth it when you cannot play the sort of golf you want to play ?
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Michael, I have a friend who is an overseas member at Royal Dornoch. He told me that he just received the tee sheet for Sept 2022. It was almost full.
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Michael, I have a friend who is an overseas member at Royal Dornoch. He told me that he just received the tee sheet for Sept 2022. It was almost full.
Nowhere is safe ;) ..just imagine and that is with the uncertainty of Covid and testing etc.
I just went home for a funeral and all the required testing was a bloody nightmare
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I know when Fortune Bay decided to build their course, Giant's Ridge was behind it 100%. With their 2 courses, and the third 20 miles away, it made them a regional destination if nothing else. Fortune Bay adds gambling for something to do at night, as well.
As far as I can remember when the economy goes south a bit, golfers don't stop playing, even their once a year golf trip, they just try to reduce costs, so a drive to resort like those up in Northern MN, or through WI, or maybe Michigan for Ohioans, etc. tend to do even better.
This OP title doesn't convey where I thought this thread was going. I clicked to see if someone thought there were new architectural paradigms for these resorts. For many years, the model was a very pristine facility like Innsibrook down in Florida, off the top of my head. And, it has a variety of difficulties among the three courses. We know Pinehurst suffers a bit from No. 2 syndrome, i.e., everyone seems disappointed when their tee times are at the other courses, and they did try to up their game with the other courses there.
Will these, when it is time to renovate for other reasons, adopt the more rugged look of some of the golf only resorts or maintain their architectural heritage? Innisbrook and many others also have a surrounding residential component.
Will courses trend harder or easier?
We know the top resorts will always do well. It would be interesting (and perhaps essential for golf) to know how the other ones will best survive.
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
I am moving to the Pinehurst area and was considering membership at Pinehurst CC until talking to several members who advised against it.
They said tee times are hard to get, you are always paired up with someone you dont know, so going out on your own for a late evening nine is out of the question.
Unfortunately that trend seems to flow over onto the Pine Needles group as well.
I appreciate that the resort traffic keeps the member dues at a lower rate, but is that worth it when you cannot play the sort of golf you want to play ?
What is the sort of golf you want to play?
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One thing I believe more recently built resorts such as Bandon, Sand Valley and Streamsong have gotten right is building uniformly high quality courses.
Resorts built at an earlier time seemed to have a feature course complimented one or more lesser courses. IN order to play the feature course, you got soaked with high priced rounds on very mediocre course. I found it a miserable value for the money and still tend to make my own itinerary when going to such destinations. There seem to usually be better options nearby outside of the resort.
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
I am moving to the Pinehurst area and was considering membership at Pinehurst CC until talking to several members who advised against it.
They said tee times are hard to get, you are always paired up with someone you dont know, so going out on your own for a late evening nine is out of the question.
Unfortunately that trend seems to flow over onto the Pine Needles group as well.
I appreciate that the resort traffic keeps the member dues at a lower rate, but is that worth it when you cannot play the sort of golf you want to play ?
What is the sort of golf you want to play?
I like to go out with a couple of balls, on course practice I guess you could say.
I dont want to have to make tee times 14 days in advance , enjoy having access to the practice facilities when they are quiet so I can chip with my own balls,what I call on course training sort of things.
Perhaps I am spoiled because I can do what I want now at my club.
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From afar it would seem that a pattern has arisen over the last decade or so to have courses at multi-course facilities designed by different architects. Not sure this was the case going back decades although maybe it sometimes was.
atb
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
I am moving to the Pinehurst area and was considering membership at Pinehurst CC until talking to several members who advised against it.
They said tee times are hard to get, you are always paired up with someone you dont know, so going out on your own for a late evening nine is out of the question.
Unfortunately that trend seems to flow over onto the Pine Needles group as well.
I appreciate that the resort traffic keeps the member dues at a lower rate, but is that worth it when you cannot play the sort of golf you want to play ?
What is the sort of golf you want to play?
I like to go out with a couple of balls, on course practice I guess you could say.
I dont want to have to make tee times 14 days in advance , enjoy having access to the practice facilities when they are quiet so I can chip with my own balls,what I call on course training sort of things.
Perhaps I am spoiled because I can do what I want now at my club.
If you are satisfied with your club now, why move to Pinehurst?
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One thing I believe more recently built resorts such as Bandon, Sand Valley and Streamsong have gotten right is building uniformly high quality courses.
Resorts built at an earlier time seemed to have a feature course complimented one or more lesser courses. IN order to play the feature course, you got soaked with high priced rounds on very mediocre course. I found it a miserable value for the money and still tend to make my own itinerary when going to such destinations. There seem to usually be better options nearby outside of the resort.
Bandon has changed the resort game FOREVER!!! The quality of golf there is off the charts and the addition of Sheep Ranch took it up a notch. I didn't find Sand Valley to be of the same quality. When you compare prices for room and golf, why would you go to Sand Valley when you can go to Bandon? If it is cheaper to get there?...maybe. Sand Valley is a different experience? With the number of high quality courses at Bandon, the variety factor is also reduced. We'll see if this changes a bit with the addition of the Lido and possibly the Doak course.
I think the soaking you're referring to starts with the feature course. You charge what the market will support for the feature course. The other courses can't be discounted to much otherwise resort guests may visit without playing your feature course. I am surprised that this can continue in an area where there are so many golfing and accommodation options.
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A note from a friend regarding Sandhills bookings: "Of course the entire Pine Needles/Mid Pines Resort is full the week we're looking at. Also the entire Pinehurst Resort Complex as well as PN/MP is full for all of October and November." I don't know for sure but I hypothesize that much of the demand these resorts are seeing this year is in part due to time shifting from last years shutdown with the added pressure of current demand. With greater ability to travel next year it will be interesting to see if demand continues or if this truly if a one off year.
I am moving to the Pinehurst area and was considering membership at Pinehurst CC until talking to several members who advised against it.
They said tee times are hard to get, you are always paired up with someone you dont know, so going out on your own for a late evening nine is out of the question.
Unfortunately that trend seems to flow over onto the Pine Needles group as well.
I appreciate that the resort traffic keeps the member dues at a lower rate, but is that worth it when you cannot play the sort of golf you want to play ?
What is the sort of golf you want to play?
I like to go out with a couple of balls, on course practice I guess you could say.
I dont want to have to make tee times 14 days in advance , enjoy having access to the practice facilities when they are quiet so I can chip with my own balls,what I call on course training sort of things.
Perhaps I am spoiled because I can do what I want now at my club.
If you are satisfied with your club now, why move to Pinehurst?
why is that any business of yours?
But being as you asked....there is more to life than just golf and after 27 years of working my wife and I decided to move to a more tranquil enviroment to spend the rest of our lives.
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8) MW-P,
My old group of golf buds used to go to Pinehurst/Southern Pines/Aberdeen Sand Hills area for 25 years (80-05) and the "resort" impact was also influenced by seemingly every hotel & motel offering golf packages or simply tee time arrangements and knowing status of things at most all of the regional courses... get first tee time and they'd work you in for a 2nd round if you wanted and we'd often grab an emergency 9 or 18 depending on how hungry we were... after all we were there to play golf. Didn't matter if we were staying at Jay & Judy K's Fairway Motel, condos, or in a rental house on a Pinehurst course...
Good luck, it does get hot & humid there in summer, not as dry as Texarkana (where I last had you living)
Cheers
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8) MW-P,
My old group of golf buds used to go to Pinehurst/Southern Pines/Aberdeen Sand Hills area for 25 years (80-05) and the "resort" impact was also influenced by seemingly every hotel & motel offering golf packages or simply tee time arrangements and knowing status of things at most all of the regional courses... get first tee time and they'd work you in for a 2nd round if you wanted and we'd often grab an emergency 9 or 18 depending on how hungry we were... after all we were there to play golf. Didn't matter if we were staying at Jay & Judy K's Fairway Motel, condos, or in a rental house on a Pinehurst course...
Good luck, it does get hot & humid there in summer, not as dry as Texarkana (where I last had you living)
Cheers
Steve,
I think those were the good old days mate.
I dont think emergency nines are on the cards anymore, unless it happens to be an unusually light day on the tee sheet.
From my limited experience once that last tee time is done, the tee is closed for the rest of the day.
Perhaps that is not always the case, or at least not on all the courses ?
Texarkana dry?
Is that a joke ?
We are humidity Central all summer long, and this week it has really started.
After one of the wettest Mays in history, someone suddenly turned on the sun and heat, so here we go until mid September
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M W-P, did you finally get run out of Texarkana? ;D
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Michael,
Congrats on your eventual move to Pinehurst. I thought about moving to Pinehurst myself, and did some research. I found that Pinehurst Resort is great, but the resort comes before the memberships - as you noted some reasons already. I also looked into Mid Pines and Pine Needles, now shocked to Jay talk about the tee sheets being filled already.
I do treasure being a member of a private club so I can go out when I want and practice when I want and get a tee time when I want.
Pinehurst move fell through 2 years ago when I brought my wife and kids. I was the only one that enjoyed the visit, so that place has been scratched off the list of places to retire. However, I will continue to visit my friends in Pinehurst and play some really good golf courses.
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Michael,
Congrats on your eventual move to Pinehurst. I thought about moving to Pinehurst myself, and did some research. I found that Pinehurst Resort is great, but the resort comes before the memberships - as you noted some reasons already. I also looked into Mid Pines and Pine Needles, now shocked to Jay talk about the tee sheets being filled already.
I do treasure being a member of a private club so I can go out when I want and practice when I want and get a tee time when I want.
Pinehurst move fell through 2 years ago when I brought my wife and kids. I was the only one that enjoyed the visit, so that place has been scratched off the list of places to retire. However, I will continue to visit my friends in Pinehurst and play some really good golf courses.
You will be welcome anytime.
Glad someone appreciates the logic behind my postings and 'the kind of golf I want to play", obviously some do not and appear to think that my way of playing the game is love is strange and too demanding??????
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I currently play almost everyday at a resort course that only allows members to tee off before 9:30 am. It is the most perfect setup I have ever enjoyed.
Interesting. So members only before opening to resort guests? Every day?
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One thing I believe more recently built resorts such as Bandon, Sand Valley and Streamsong have gotten right is building uniformly high quality courses.
Resorts built at an earlier time seemed to have a feature course complimented one or more lesser courses. IN order to play the feature course, you got soaked with high priced rounds on very mediocre course. I found it a miserable value for the money and still tend to make my own itinerary when going to such destinations. There seem to usually be better options nearby outside of the resort.
I think this is dead on, along with the comment on having different architects design the courses. We see this at Bandon, Streamsong, Cabot, Sand Valley, etc. You have your DMK, Doak, C&C, etc. Of course the other trend is that these courses are often located in the middle of nowhere so they take a commitment to get to.