Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Grant Saunders on March 23, 2021, 04:27:08 AM
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What holes, or courses as well, are unanimously viewed as great by ALL golfing demographics and not just the architectural cognoscenti?
As much as the road hole gets put forward as the answer to almost every question asked here, does this resonate with the average, and therefore market, player?
Cypress points 16th may illicit borderline sexual fantasy amongst the basement dwellers, but in the public eye does the 17th at sawgrass carry a greater following of the great unwashed?
Is there some common ground that can be agreed upon by everyone who enjoys chasing the white ball?
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It would be really interesting to see a poll of St Andrews residents as to the best holes in town, but I have never seen one.
Does the average golfer pick out certain holes as best?
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I rarely see the 8th PB get hammered by anyone... and its 18th has pretty fond general opinion too...
It's a limited list though as it's got to be well played and that leaves a lot of privates off.
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Yes, holes that are scenic probably would dominate the list. 18 at Kapalua Plantation (not my cup of tea but well liked on here) for example. Perhaps 11 at Ballybunion Old. 12 at Kingsbarns.
Ira
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..., but in the public eye does the 17th at sawgrass carry a greater following of the great unwashed?
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I can't understand the 17th being a model of anything good other than a target at a driving range with an automatic ball return mechanism built in the pond around it.
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Cypress points 16th may illicit borderline sexual fantasy amongst the basement dwellers, but in the public eye does the 17th at sawgrass carry a greater following of the great unwashed?
The 17th at the TPC is much better known. I would guess the opinions of those who don't have to play it, are probably different from those who do.
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I wonder if it is even possible to have universal agreement. Last year I played with a high handicapper at my course where I live. The course itself is just average but pretty in the mts. We got to the 12th hole a short straight away par four and I mentioned that I thought it was the worst hole in Virginia. He quickly responded, "It is my favorite hole. I can par it sometimes."
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Hole 5 at Pinehurst No.2??
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Hole 5 at Pinehurst No.2??
Carl, do you think it’s better since it became a par five?
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6th at Royal Melbourne West might fit the bill
https://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/cms/west-course/hole-6/ (https://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/cms/west-course/hole-6/)
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I think you could add 14 at Dornoch, 17 at the Old Course, 18th at Pebble Beach, and the 8th (now 4th) at Banff.
Edited for correctness. 9th changed to 8th
Although I do think the 9th at Banff is one of the best par 4's on the course. It has one of the best risk-reward tee shots on the golf course with the safe approach being a 3 wood or driving iron over the short end of the bunker leave your self a mid-iron in. The bold play is to cover the fairway bunker with a driver and you can have a wedge into this well contoured and heavily bunkered green site. This defiantly a risk as any pull to the left and your ball will find the dense growth of 100-year-old pines with short finding you in a long deep pit. I think it's overshadowed by it coming after the Caldron and by it being a hard hole for the resort golfer without a yardage book.
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I think you could add 14 at Dornoch, 17 at the Old Course, 18th at Pebble Beach, and the 9th (now 4th) at Banff.
Ben: It was the 8th originally, wasn't it?
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Hole 5 at Pinehurst No.2??
Carl, do you think it’s better since it became a par five?
Don't know. Only played once. The course is on my list to play again.
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6th at Royal Melbourne West might fit the bill
https://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/cms/west-course/hole-6/ (https://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/cms/west-course/hole-6/)
I immediately thought of #5 when I saw this thread. I looked to see if I had the numbering mixed up. Interestingly enough, the Royal Melbourne website spoke of #5 in a way that suggested universal acclaim for that hole. So maybe there are back to back universally acclaimed holes.
Anecdotally, I had the experience of being out there playing the courses about four or five years ago with some Aussie friends. We came to the 5th hole. I took a couple of photos of the hole. Another player in the group had a phone camera and took a video of a player in our group hitting his shot. We witnessed and the camera recorded an exquisitely struck shot which made it into the hole for an ace.
Charles Lund
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Charles, I know most like 5 and its certainly a cracking par 3, but I'm wondering whether a par 3 can be all that and and more?
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Ira said it above but the one hole in Ireland that would come out top of the heap is the 11th at Ballybunion, in that it is loved by all equally.
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Grant, I don't know if you had any criteria in mind regarding how well known a hole must be in order to be considered. Sleepy Hollow is not as well known as most of the courses mentioned so far in this thread but, based on substance and beauty I think that #5, #15 and #16 at Sleepy are universally loved by golfers of all demographics and interests who have played there.
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Universally acclaimed by who? If it is the general public you have to pick something like 17 at TPC Sawgrass, 18 at Pebble Beach or many of the holes on the back nine at Augusta National. Honestly few will know or recognize many of the others mentioned above.
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Hole 5 at Pinehurst No.2??
Carl, do you think it’s better since it became a par five?
Don't know. Only played once. The course is on my list to play again.
Before fall 2019, I hadn't played no.2 since before the redesign and my biggest worry was that lengthening five to a par 5 would make it worse. But I ended up thinking the opposite--I like it more as a par 5. Except for the longest hitters who might still be able to carry (I'm certainly not one), now it's a challenging drive between bunkers/waste on the left and the trees on the right. From the par 4 tees, it was an easy carry over the bunker to a wide fairway.
I think that the second shot is also better now because the bunkers short-left of the green really affect the approach regardless of your skill level. You have to skirt them to go for the green in two but still want to stay close to them if laying up because the approach from the right side of the fairway is at an awkward angle and faces the pit of despair left of the green. Plus, the green complex is small and has enough severity around it to work better on a par 5 than a par 4.
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Charles, I know most like 5 and its certainly a cracking par 3, but I'm wondering whether a par 3 can be all that and and more?
Universal acclaim is a high standard and presupposes widespread knowledge. The initial post here nudged toward par threes with reference to Cypress #16 and Sawgrass #17. Obviously #12 at Augusta would come to mind, given the exposure on coverage of the Masters. A photo can capture the elements of a par three and many are very photogenic.
It is harder to capture elements of a par four or par five in a single image, but the two shotters and three shotters by nature can have a look and feel from two or three shots adding to a larger set of component elements, best experienced in real time through play.
Charles Lund
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If we're going with the universally accepted definition of universal, then i think Mark is certainly on point with his last post. Even CPC #16, you'd be surprised how many people I've showed it to and they say "that's cool, where is that?"
Hell for this exercise, you may as well throw in a hole like Torrey Pines 18 as the average joe is far more likely to know it and think it to be acclaimed...
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Charles, I know most like 5 and its certainly a cracking par 3, but I'm wondering whether a par 3 can be all that and and more?
Universal acclaim is a high standard and presupposes widespread knowledge. The initial post here nudged toward par threes with reference to Cypress #16 and Sawgrass #17. Obviously #12 at Augusta would come to mind, given the exposure on coverage of the Masters. A photo can capture the elements of a par three and many are very photogenic.
It is harder to capture elements of a par four or par five in a single image, but the two shotters and three shotters by nature can have a look and feel from two or three shots adding to a larger set of component elements, best experienced in real time through play.
Charles Lund
Charles
I wasnt trying to point it towards par 3's but you probably make a good observation about them reading better from 2 dimensional media. I picked those 2 holes more just as examples of what probably exists at each end of the spectrum in terms of known by those "in the know" so to speak and known by the general population.
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If we're going with the universally accepted definition of universal, then i think Mark is certainly on point with his last post. Even CPC #16, you'd be surprised how many people I've showed it to and they say "that's cool, where is that?"
Hell for this exercise, you may as well throw in a hole like Torrey Pines 18 as the average joe is far more likely to know it and think it to be acclaimed...
Kalen
You and Mark are both on to what I was trying to get across. We probably vastly overestimate the public awareness of the courses and holes we bandy about on here assigning the greatness label to. I would guess 80% or higher of people I know have never heard of Cypress Point or Pine Valley. Its not a slight on them or fair to label them uneducated but rather a function of what people are exposed to.
Perhaps the question should be asked differently: What holes/courses, that are well known by the golfing community at large, would you consider to be great?
Picture yourself having a conversation with Joe golfer and you are trying to spark their interest in architecture. What hole would you use in support of your discussion that is both widely recognised and also fits the definition of great?
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I think partly the reason this is such a challenge is that great is hardly a word that is universally defined. Lots of different audiences have different ideas of what "great" means - especially in terms of a golf hole. That in mind, I'd say 13 at Augusta might be a more likely candidate than 12. Just about everyone recognizes both, but there's a lot more strategy to 13 than 12. 12 is a hit it basically perfect or you're in serious trouble. 13 gives you the challenge of turning one round the corner, or playing shorter and safer and laying up, then the pitch over the creek to that green. It's aesthetically very pleasing to just about anyone and everyone and you get to see eagles and doubles on it every year.
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An engineering colleague of mine had a very attractive aerial view of Cypress Point #16 hanging on the wall of his office. The conversation went something like this:
Me: I didn't know you played golf.
Him: I don't.
Me: Then why do you have a picture of a golf course view on your wall:
Him: I don't.
At which point, I had to let him know exactly what his picture was of.
Does that mean the hole is "acclaimed"?
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... I would guess 80% or higher of people I know have never heard of Cypress Point or Pine Valley. Its not a slight on them or fair to label them uneducated but rather a function of what people are exposed to.
Perhaps the question should be asked differently: What holes/courses, that are well known by the golfing community at large, would you consider to be great?
+1 I think it's more than 80% even among avid golfers. I was so excited after I played Pine Valley. The following week when I went to my club and wanted to discuss my round, only a few knew of it. What made it more amazing to me was that some of them read the "best of" lists in the golf mags.
If the question is limited to holes well known to the golfing community at large, we will have an extremely small universe, limited to a few holes at Augusta, Pebble Beach, TOC, and holes like #17 at TPC, #18 at Bay Hill and perhaps a handful that are widely known like the postage stamp. Most golfers, even avid golfers, only know holes that they see on Sunday on TV.
It would be an interesting exercise to ask people one gets paired up with what well known holes they think are great. My guess is that Augusta #12, Pebble #7 and TPC #17 would be named most frequently. As discussed above, seems to be par 3's. Maybe the Road Hole would be the most cited par 4, but I'm not sure a lot of golfers think it's great.
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It would be an interesting exercise to ask people one gets paired up with what well known holes they think are great. My guess is that Augusta #12, Pebble #7 and TPC #17 would be named most frequently. As discussed above, seems to be par 3's. Maybe the Road Hole would be the most cited par 4, but I'm not sure a lot of golfers think it's great.
Stewart agreed, and you may even find a few on this site who aren't so sure the Road Hole is "great" either, but that may need its own "frank commentary" thread.