Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jeff Schley on February 17, 2021, 11:36:12 AM

Title: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Jeff Schley on February 17, 2021, 11:36:12 AM
I'm sure there is data out there, from the edge of a green complex to the middle of the member tee box for the 17 transitions.


We all love a great walk that isn't too laborious with mild undulations. A short walk from green to tee is central to that enjoyment.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: JESII on February 17, 2021, 11:38:48 AM
No idea of the actual answer but for a modern course, Applebrook, outside Philadelphia, has to be a contender.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 17, 2021, 11:45:06 AM
Of the courses I've played, Indian Canyon is the first course that comes to mind.  Its built on the side of the hill but the green to tee transitions are fairly short in general.

I'm guessing it still adds up to a few hundred yards, (9 green to 10 tee is nearly 100, but I would think that's not unusual even for a nearly 100 year old layout.)
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Ian Galbraith on February 17, 2021, 11:55:49 AM
I too enjoy a compact course green to tee. Just did a quick measure of North Berwick on google maps and it totals about 630 yards for the 17 transitions - an average of 37 yards. Most are closer to 20 yards but a few longer ones (3-4, 9-10 and 12-13, 14-15) bump up the total.


I suspect somewhere like Elie might be a contender in this game. 
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Adam Lawrence on February 17, 2021, 12:01:49 PM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Rick Lane on February 17, 2021, 12:05:32 PM
Just measured Brooklawn in Ct with Google earth.  1911 layout with some of the shortest green to tee walks I’ve played.  Got 2781 feet, or 927 yards, avg 54 yards per hole.  Surprised me, as I would have bet avg 35 yards.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: PCCraig on February 17, 2021, 12:06:12 PM
When I played Pinehurst #4 last month I mentioned that I enjoyed the short green to tee walks around the course, to which my member playing partners replied how much they didn't enjoy it. Apparently they didn't like hearing people on the green behind them talking/yelling/etc. while they tee off.


Oh well. Different strokes...
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Ira Fishman on February 17, 2021, 12:22:04 PM
Brora must be a contender.


Ira
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 17, 2021, 12:46:40 PM
I'm surprised as well.  Just measured Indian Canyon and while it has 4 transitions of 30 yards or less, it also has 3 over 100, and 3 others between 70 and 90 yards.

Total Yardage - 1044, Avg - 61
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 17, 2021, 01:43:40 PM
On the opposite side of the spectrum I measured a local course here that is literally built into the side of a mountain.  It has its own category of CartBall... Mountain Ball.

I wonder if this can be beat:
Yardage just from Greens to Tees - 4453
Number under 100 yards - 0
Number over 400 yards - 3 (Not including 1 other at 390)
Number over 600 yards - 1 (9 to 10)
Average transition - 261 yards
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: C. Sturges on February 17, 2021, 02:16:03 PM
Kalen,


Is that the Lake course at Mountain Dell?   It popped in my mind as one of the worst.


chris
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 17, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
Kalen,

Is that the Lake course at Mountain Dell?   It popped in my mind as one of the worst.
chris


That one has a few long transitions, but most aren't too bad.

The one I gave numbers for is South Mountain in Draper. It has some fun holes, and a number of interesting shots, but complete and utter Cart Ball for sure! ;)


P.S.  I did Sanctuary for comparison, but that was "only" 2300 yards.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Edward Glidewell on February 17, 2021, 02:30:44 PM
I just did a rough measurement of Sedgefield. If I'd measured to the back tees the distances would be shorter because on most holes there you're actually walking past the tips to get to the regular tees (as opposed to courses where you have to walk backwards to get to them), but I came up with 371 yards in total for the front 9, 432 yards total for the back 9, and about 110 yards to transition from the 9th green to the 10th tee for an average of roughly 53 yards per hole when playing from the regular men's tees.


It certainly doesn't feel like that much when you're playing there, but an average of 53 yards per hole (somewhat skewed by the 9 to 10 transition) is probably quite short in the overall golf world. I think measuring to the back tees would probably be closer to a 45 yard average.


I'm honestly not sure how much closer you'd actually want them with current equipment and remembering that most golfers aren't low handicappers. There's one par 3 at Sedgefield where it's not difficult to pull your tee shot and hit it on the next hole's tee.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 17, 2021, 02:36:46 PM
Do private courses count? I recall a video showing Mike Nuzzo teeing-up immediately adjacent to the previous greens at Wolf Point.
Wasn’t MacKenzie famous for advocating close green to next tee transitions? The course of his that comes to mind first when pondering the idea is Walsall. I’m sure there are many others. Yee olde day smaller size sites with no room to expand help I guess.
Atb
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Brian Finn on February 17, 2021, 03:01:55 PM
My home course, a restored/renovated Ross currently has ~1,070 yards total of the 17 green to tee walks (63 yards average), including 3 of above 100 yards each (110, 145, 175).  I found it interesting that the original routing (different clubhouse location, different order, 2 holes that were replaced) came in over 300 yards shorter, for a 45 yard average, with only 2 above 100 (110, 120).  In between is the original hole order, with the 2 new holes included, and that comes in just under 900 yards, or 53 yard average. 

I believe Mid Pines comes in at just over 600 yards total, with an average of 36-38 yards per hole.  Among courses in the US, I can't imagine too many would get much lower than this, but I'd be interested to hear.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Adam Lawrence on February 17, 2021, 03:02:20 PM
Do private courses count? I recall a video showing Mike Nuzzo teeing-up immediately adjacent to the previous greens at Wolf Point.


Wolf Point doesn’t have formal teeing grounds; the local rule is that the winner of a hole chooses where to start the next hole. It has lots of small, flat areas that can serve as teeing grounds. Most are indeed very close to the preceding green.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: JESII on February 17, 2021, 03:07:28 PM
599 yards for Applebrook based on Google Earth...pretty good. 35 per transition.



Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 17, 2021, 03:34:39 PM
I don't have time to measure, but I'm curious what Balcomie would be.  I've never had so many balls land near me curing a round of golf as that one- but it was very windy, so maybe the spray patters were just enlarged. 
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: D_Malley on February 17, 2021, 03:59:54 PM
wasn't one of the early golf rules that you had to tee off within one club length of the previous hole?


Merion west seems to have really short distances, except for a couple holes
IDK how to measure it
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Gavrich on February 17, 2021, 04:02:12 PM
Secession is probably the most efficient green-to-tee course I've ever played, probably followed by Pine Needles.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on February 17, 2021, 04:02:54 PM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.


Has to be
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 17, 2021, 05:17:02 PM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.

Has to be

I'd be willing to map it, but I don't know which tees are the member tees or otherwise.  But I do know some holes on TOC have some fairly lengthy walk backs to accommodate top notch tournaments..
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Adam Lawrence on February 17, 2021, 05:42:53 PM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.

Has to be

I'd be willing to map it, but I don't know which tees are the member tees or otherwise.  But I do know some holes on TOC have some fairly lengthy walk backs to accommodate top notch tournaments..


Hence 'the original tees'.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Pete_Pittock on February 17, 2021, 05:52:49 PM
Columbia Edgewater in Portland might be close, but they increased the walk with the revision of the par 5 3rd hole.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: archie_struthers on February 17, 2021, 07:08:41 PM
 ???


Merion West?  Not sure but you almost fall onto the next tee.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: JohnVDB on February 17, 2021, 08:21:47 PM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.


It would have been even shorter when you tees your ball wihin two club-lengths of the hole.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Randy Thompson on February 17, 2021, 09:17:28 PM
Mar Del Plata Golf Club in Argentina.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Sean_A on February 18, 2021, 06:08:38 AM
Often depends on which tees are played. I often play based on the closest tee to the previous green. I would also suggest that some walks offer added value. For instance, the walk up the hill from 9 to 10 at North Berwick affords a lovely view off the back of the tee. It's worth going an extra 25 yards. On the other hand, I wish the 12th tee was closer to the 11th green. Totally different and I think better angle for the hole.

Ciao
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Adam Lawrence on February 18, 2021, 06:12:49 AM
Gotta be the Old Course really, if played from the original tees -- which are literally a step off the previous green.


It would have been even shorter when you tees your ball wihin two club-lengths of the hole.


quite!
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Steve Wilson on February 18, 2021, 03:47:51 PM
When playing with guests at Golspie I always point out that the walk from the 12th green to the 13th tee is my favorite walk in all of Highlands golf.  It might be five yards.  Unfortunately the rest of the course falls away from that standard.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Mike Nuzzo on February 18, 2021, 05:55:24 PM
There is a 300' walk from the 7th green to the 8th tee.
There is a 100' walk from the 14th green to the 15th tee.
Then depending on the wind you can walk 0' or more to find a happy spot for the 18th tee.
Otherwise, every green has a connected tee at Wolf Point.
Almost as good as the old Old Course.
Peace
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Michael Felton on February 18, 2021, 06:15:24 PM
The course I grew up on - Effingham GC in Surrey - is pretty good. Just google mapsed it and got a total of 2,405 feet, so 802 yards total, for an average of 47 yards. Shortest one is 9 to 10 - 18 yards.


Walton Heath Old looks like 2,129, for just over 700 total and 42 average. The 5 longest ones are 1,138 of the total, leaving 12 shortest of under 1,000 feet and a 27.5 yard average. 4 on the front nine are less than 20 yards. 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 5 to 6 and 8 to 9. That changes if you play the back tees quite a lot. I think there are 12 holes where you have your back to the green as you walk to the tee.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Michael Underwood on February 18, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Of the "modern" private courses Ballyneal Golf Club comes to mind.


All very short walks from green to tee (500 - 600 yards total is my guess) and almost no walk from the following:


2 to 3
4 to 5
5 to 6
7 to 8
8 to 9
9 to 10
10 to 11
12 to 13
13 to 14
15 to 16
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Mark Kiely on February 18, 2021, 06:27:59 PM
I recall relevant discussion of this topic in 2017 when Dave August hosted a handful of us at Desert Forest. I just looked at Google Maps to confirm that there are really no aberrations, but don't know how to calculate it. Anyone care to figure it out?
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: JMEvensky on February 18, 2021, 06:58:08 PM
Memphis CC would have to be in the mix. Other than 1-2 and 9-10, they're all just a few steps from the preceding green. Kris Spence would probably know to the penny if he sees this.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: SL_Solow on February 18, 2021, 08:10:00 PM
For sure it isn't the Cape Breton Highland Links
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Wade Whitehead on February 18, 2021, 08:20:59 PM
Sheep Ranch?

Haven't been there (going June 2022) but distances look short.

WW
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on February 19, 2021, 12:20:20 AM
Ballybunion stands out for me. There are quite a few short walks from greens to the next tee.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim_Cronin on February 19, 2021, 12:39:56 AM
Onwentsia has very short walks from green to tee. Maybe 25 yards most of the time. A bit more if the tee is directly behind the previous green, just in case someone is long. Makes for a relaxing walk.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Gallant on February 20, 2021, 01:40:45 PM
Often depends on which tees are played. I often play based on the closest tee to the previous green. I would also suggest that some walks offer added value. For instance, the walk up the hill from 9 to 10 at North Berwick affords a lovely view off the back of the tee. It's worth going an extra 25 yards. On the other hand, I wish the 12th tee was closer to the 11th green. Totally different and I think better angle for the hole.

Ciao


Sean, that's interesting! I don't care for the new back tees on 12, but I never thought about shifting the angle. Where would you put it?
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Sean_A on February 20, 2021, 02:13:17 PM
Often depends on which tees are played. I often play based on the closest tee to the previous green. I would also suggest that some walks offer added value. For instance, the walk up the hill from 9 to 10 at North Berwick affords a lovely view off the back of the tee. It's worth going an extra 25 yards. On the other hand, I wish the 12th tee was closer to the 11th green. Totally different and I think better angle for the hole.

Ciao


Sean, that's interesting! I don't care for the new back tees on 12, but I never thought about shifting the angle. Where would you put it?

There is space for a small tee left of 11 green and on the natural plateau behind the green. The angle is much more difficult and makes the left bunkers make more sense. The views there would be lovely. It does seem odd to walk away from the coast and views for the current tee.

Ciao
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Gallant on February 20, 2021, 04:59:40 PM
Often depends on which tees are played. I often play based on the closest tee to the previous green. I would also suggest that some walks offer added value. For instance, the walk up the hill from 9 to 10 at North Berwick affords a lovely view off the back of the tee. It's worth going an extra 25 yards. On the other hand, I wish the 12th tee was closer to the 11th green. Totally different and I think better angle for the hole.

Ciao


Sean, that's interesting! I don't care for the new back tees on 12, but I never thought about shifting the angle. Where would you put it?

There is space for a small tee left of 11 green and on the natural plateau behind the green. The angle is much more difficult and makes the left bunkers make more sense. The views there would be lovely. It does seem odd to walk away from the coast and views for the current tee.

Ciao


I'll have a look next time I'm there and snap a photo. I did think there might be something just off the back of the green that would be interesting.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: John Ezekowitz on February 20, 2021, 11:05:30 PM
In its original routing from before Princeton University took the old clubhouse back, Springdale Golf Club must be a contender. With that routing, I measure about 700 yards from green to next member tee with several under 30 yards and one at 20! That one works as the prior hole is a 130 yard par 3 with a tree screening the next tee.


I guess you have to be compact when the course (6,400 yards) is routed over ~110 acres.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Greg Hohman on February 21, 2021, 12:14:04 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Joshua Pettit on February 21, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
Valley Club is very compact, with many of the tees tied into the previous green complex, especially considering you have to cross Sheffield Drive twice (from 2 green to 3 tee and from 12 green to 13 tee).

I did a quick survey and came up with the following.  Keep in mind that these measurements can fluctuate based on what part of the green edge you measure from and where the tee markers are positioned on any given day, but the following represents pretty accurate average distances to the member tees:

1 Green > 2 Tee:  32 Yards
2 Green > 3 Tee:  143 Yards
3 Green > 4 Tee:  27 Yards
4 Green > 5 Tee:  29 Yards
5 Green > 6 Tee:  33 Yards
6 Green > 7 Tee:  17 Yards
7 Green > 8 Tee:  32 Yards
8 Green > 9 Tee:  21 Yards
9 Green > 10 Tee:  19 Yards
10 Green > 11 Tee:  18 Yards
11 Green > 12 Tee:  40 Yards
12 Green > 13 Tee:  84 Yards
13 Green > 14 Tee:  10 Yards
14 Green > 15 Tee:  78 Yards
15 Green > 16 Tee:  7 Yards
16 Green > 17 Tee:  11 Yards
17 Green > 18 Tee:  10 Yards

TOTAL:  611 Yards
AVERAGE:  35.9 Yards
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: David Ober on February 21, 2021, 11:16:30 PM
Lakeside in Burbank has to be among the shortest.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on February 22, 2021, 12:14:22 AM
In its original routing from before Princeton University took the old clubhouse back, Springdale Golf Club must be a contender. With that routing, I measure about 700 yards from green to next member tee with several under 30 yards and one at 20! That one works as the prior hole is a 130 yard par 3 with a tree screening the next tee.


I guess you have to be compact when the course (6,400 yards) is routed over ~110 acres.
Despite attending Princeton, I never actually played Springdale, though I think Ernie Ransome once told me I should. Need to do so.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: David Ober on February 22, 2021, 01:10:30 AM
Lakeside in Burbank has to be among the shortest.


Haven't surveyed, but would guess that Lakeside is about 500 to 600 yards -- if you exclude the walk from 9 to 10, which is a decent distance of probably 200 yards?
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: David Davis on February 22, 2021, 04:46:37 AM
I'm going to say Utrecht de Pan has to be in the running.


It must come down to semantics on how you measure things of course, I just ran through it making guesses and came up with 250-300 yds in total. Almost every tee is right at a safe distance to the last green and on such a small compact property. Part of the genius of Colt.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Ira Fishman on February 22, 2021, 07:49:32 AM
Swinley Forest is another Colt course that fits the bill.


Ira
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Forrest Richardson on February 25, 2021, 11:30:01 PM
Easy answer: The course with the highest insurance premium.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: J_ Crisham on February 27, 2021, 09:01:55 AM
In the Chicagoland area Old Elm is probably the easiest green to tee walk. In fact several of the tee boxes are in the fringe transitions of the greens. Ideally suited for the demographics of the membership.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Martin on February 27, 2021, 09:09:52 AM
Wannamoisett comes to mind for me. Ross only had 100 acres to work with.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Bruce Bearer on March 02, 2021, 01:20:50 AM
Valley Club is very compact, with many of the tees tied into the previous green complex, especially considering you have to cross Sheffield Drive twice (from 2 green to 3 tee and from 12 green to 13 tee).

I did a quick survey and came up with the following.  Keep in mind that these measurements can fluctuate based on what part of the green edge you measure from and where the tee markers are positioned on any given day, but the following represents pretty accurate average distances to the member tees:

1 Green > 2 Tee:  32 Yards
2 Green > 3 Tee:  143 Yards
3 Green > 4 Tee:  27 Yards
4 Green > 5 Tee:  29 Yards
5 Green > 6 Tee:  33 Yards
6 Green > 7 Tee:  17 Yards
7 Green > 8 Tee:  32 Yards
8 Green > 9 Tee:  21 Yards
9 Green > 10 Tee:  19 Yards
10 Green > 11 Tee:  18 Yards
11 Green > 12 Tee:  40 Yards
12 Green > 13 Tee:  84 Yards
13 Green > 14 Tee:  10 Yards
14 Green > 15 Tee:  78 Yards
15 Green > 16 Tee:  7 Yards
16 Green > 17 Tee:  11 Yards
17 Green > 18 Tee:  10 Yards

TOTAL:  611 Yards
AVERAGE:  35.9 Yards


Riviera is compact as well from green to tee.


I came up with a total of 636 yards; 37 yard average. 
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Jonathan Cummings on March 02, 2021, 08:11:53 AM
Wannamoisett comes to mind for me. Ross only had 100 acres to work with.


Agree - that's the one that first came to my mind.  A modern one to consider is Stranz' Caledonia.  I believe that's built on less than 100 acres and about as tightly packed as a course can be.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Phil Burr on March 02, 2021, 02:26:44 PM
I am so envious of all GCAers whose Google Earth talents allow them to measure courses hole-by-hole.  I'm not looking to beat the lowest yet reported, but I'd love to be able to calculate the distance for certain courses that are close to my heart.  Courses built on small acreage such as Wannamoisett & Caledonia certainly spring to mind.  Others I'd like to measure include Merion & Taconic.


How about Pebble as played in fourth round of this year's AT&T?  Historically short transitions such as from 6-7, 7-8, 17-18, plus 4th round's new take on 9-10.  Longest transitions I can think of at PB are crossing the road 2-3, 9-10 (to the back tee at 10), 12-13 and 16-17.  I'd be interested in a tech wizard's measurements.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 02, 2021, 02:47:37 PM
I am so envious of all GCAers whose Google Earth talents allow them to measure courses hole-by-hole.  I'm not looking to beat the lowest yet reported, but I'd love to be able to calculate the distance for certain courses that are close to my heart.  Courses built on small acreage such as Wannamoisett & Caledonia certainly spring to mind.  Others I'd like to measure include Merion & Taconic.


How about Pebble as played in fourth round of this year's AT&T?  Historically short transitions such as from 6-7, 7-8, 17-18, plus 4th round's new take on 9-10.  Longest transitions I can think of at PB are crossing the road 2-3, 9-10 (to the back tee at 10), 12-13 and 16-17.  I'd be interested in a tech wizard's measurements.


Phil,

I can certainly do this for Pebble, but I suspect some of those transitions may be longer than you think, especially when doing the measurement from green to the middle tee as opposed to the back tee. 

I'm gonna take a balllpark swag on Pebble right now and guess its at least 1500 yards, but I'll measure later today.

Kalen
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Phil Burr on March 02, 2021, 03:20:59 PM
Thanks Kalen,


I'll be interested to see what you come up with.  And you're right in that there are several tees where one walks forward from green to next tee, passing the back tees in the process.


Phil
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Martin on March 02, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
I am so envious of all GCAers whose Google Earth talents allow them to measure courses hole-by-hole.  I'm not looking to beat the lowest yet reported, but I'd love to be able to calculate the distance for certain courses that are close to my heart.  Courses built on small acreage such as Wannamoisett & Caledonia certainly spring to mind.  Others I'd like to measure include Merion & Taconic.


How about Pebble as played in fourth round of this year's AT&T?  Historically short transitions such as from 6-7, 7-8, 17-18, plus 4th round's new take on 9-10.  Longest transitions I can think of at PB are crossing the road 2-3, 9-10 (to the back tee at 10), 12-13 and 16-17.  I'd be interested in a tech wizard's measurements.


Phil-Taconic on only 110 acres is pretty solid with the exception of 1 green to 2 tee(40 yards up the hill and past 17 tee) and 9 green to 10 tee which requires a pretty good walk up the stairs behind the green and around. The inward hole walks are pretty close.

Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Phil Burr on March 02, 2021, 07:09:47 PM
Tim, as you consistently respond first to my posts that reference Taconic, I have to inquire as to your connection to the course/area.  I would love to be your host for a GCA round at Taconic in 2022; as former golf team captain and friendly with the pro/coach I think we could procure favorable terms.  You mentioned the transition from 1-2 which is indeed longer than average along with 9-10.  Both legit.  I’d add 16-17 to the list yet remain interested as to what GCA cartographers will calculate.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tim Martin on March 02, 2021, 07:55:56 PM
Tim, as you consistently respond first to my posts that reference Taconic, I have to inquire as to your connection to the course/area.  I would love to be your host for a GCA round at Taconic in 2022; as former golf team captain and friendly with the pro/coach I think we could procure favorable terms.  You mentioned the transition from 1-2 which is indeed longer than average along with 9-10.  Both legit.  I’d add 16-17 to the list yet remain interested as to what GCA cartographers will calculate.


Phil-I live in the Hartford, Connecticut area and have been lucky to play pre and post Hanse restoration. Two October plays in 2020 were highlights and reminded me how compelling the holes are after missing the last few years. I’ll look forward to playing in 2022 and thank you for the gracious invitation. It’s clear your not a status seeker.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 02, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Phil,

Here is what I measured at Pebble.  Just over 1100 yards from green edge to the center of the most oft used tee box, where the white or gold markers would presumably be. A lot of short transitions, with some very long ones too, where the average of 65 per transition doesn't reflect any of them...

Holes         Yards
1 to 2     53
2 to 3     55
3 to 4     80
4 to 5     107
5 to 6     170
6 to 7     31
7 to 8     42
8 to 9     32
9 to 10     105
10 to 11    76
11 to 12    23
12 to 13    41
13 to 14    58
14 to 15    32
15 to 16    38
16 to 17    130
17 to 18    31
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Phil Burr on March 02, 2021, 09:22:15 PM
Kalen, do you have experience calling in military airstrikes or otherwise operating airborne equipment?  This is truly admirable work.


Back to Pebble, the 10-11 distance is most surprising to me.  As for 16-17 being the greatest, perhaps every one of the 8 times I've played Pebble the 17th hole begins when I set foot on the US Open tee, even if I have to walk another 40 yards to the tee from which I'm obligated to play.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Sean_A on March 03, 2021, 04:07:18 AM
I think small properties can lead to some of the unusually long and awkward transitions. I would think property shape and type is often not conducive for very smooth 18 hole transitions. It should really be 19 because the house being intimate with the course is desirable. This is part of what I was getting at with par constriction. Because we are obsessed with 18 holes the par overwhelmingly falls somewhere between 68 and 73. If courses were really well designed to match a site the par range would vary more dramatically and often.

Ciao
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 03, 2021, 10:15:49 AM
Kalen, do you have experience calling in military airstrikes or otherwise operating airborne equipment?  This is truly admirable work.


Back to Pebble, the 10-11 distance is most surprising to me.  As for 16-17 being the greatest, perhaps every one of the 8 times I've played Pebble the 17th hole begins when I set foot on the US Open tee, even if I have to walk another 40 yards to the tee from which I'm obligated to play.


Google Earth is pretty straight forward for measuring distances like this.  I should post a tutorial sometime.

P.S.  5 to 6 is the longest transition at 170 yards, but not surprising given the original 5th hole and corridor is NLE
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 03, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
Kalen, do you have experience calling in military airstrikes or otherwise operating airborne equipment?  This is truly admirable work.


Back to Pebble, the 10-11 distance is most surprising to me.  As for 16-17 being the greatest, perhaps every one of the 8 times I've played Pebble the 17th hole begins when I set foot on the US Open tee, even if I have to walk another 40 yards to the tee from which I'm obligated to play.


Google Earth is pretty straight forward for measuring distances like this.  I should post a tutorial sometime.

P.S.  5 to 6 is the longest transition at 170 yards, but not surprising given the original 5th hole and corridor is NLE
Please do!  With all your posts it would be nice to mix in a useful one....... ;D ;) JK
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Phil Burr on March 03, 2021, 11:03:16 AM
If the parcel where Nicklaus’ #5 sits had been available to Neville & Grant in 1919, would they have sited #6 tee where it is today?  In those pre-cart days, 170-yard uphill walks were a relatively rare green-to-tee transition.  if they hadn’t placed the tee where it now sits, would the resulting 6th hole be a straightaway long par four played to the base of the big hill?  Perhaps more intriguingly, is there a spot to the right of the fifth green where a tee could be placed and, with some tree removal, create a dramatic cape-style tee shot to the existing 6th fairway that allowed the player to choose a line based on much carry he could manage?
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 03, 2021, 11:21:41 AM
Kalen, do you have experience calling in military airstrikes or otherwise operating airborne equipment?  This is truly admirable work.


Back to Pebble, the 10-11 distance is most surprising to me.  As for 16-17 being the greatest, perhaps every one of the 8 times I've played Pebble the 17th hole begins when I set foot on the US Open tee, even if I have to walk another 40 yards to the tee from which I'm obligated to play.


Google Earth is pretty straight forward for measuring distances like this.  I should post a tutorial sometime.

P.S.  5 to 6 is the longest transition at 170 yards, but not surprising given the original 5th hole and corridor is NLE
Please do!  With all your posts it would be nice to mix in a useful one....... ;D ;) JK


Ouch Jeff,

But I can't deny its at least partially true.  I'm certainly no Tom F$%^ing Doak!  ;D

P.S.  I'll put this on my to do list for this weekend.  My wife and I will be fully vaccinated by the end of the month, but until then we continue to stay home 99% of the time...
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Gib_Papazian on March 03, 2021, 01:59:24 PM
Succession, with the exception of one backtrack, the most efficient I have ever seen.



Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 03, 2021, 02:07:43 PM
If the parcel where Nicklaus’ #5 sits had been available to Neville & Grant in 1919, would they have sited #6 tee where it is today?  In those pre-cart days, 170-yard uphill walks were a relatively rare green-to-tee transition.  if they hadn’t placed the tee where it now sits, would the resulting 6th hole be a straightaway long par four played to the base of the big hill?  Perhaps more intriguingly, is there a spot to the right of the fifth green where a tee could be placed and, with some tree removal, create a dramatic cape-style tee shot to the existing 6th fairway that allowed the player to choose a line based on much carry he could manage?


To the right of #5 green is off the cliff.


I highly doubt they would have walked back 170 yards to make the hole a par-5.  They could have made the hole a short par-4 with the tee a bit shorter and the green close to the cliff, or walked back 80-100 yards to make it a par-4 with room to drive to the base of the hill.  Neither of those solutions is better, which is probably one reason they were okay giving up #5 on the water in the first place. 
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Steve Wilson on March 04, 2021, 04:12:53 PM
After citing Golspie's shortcomings other than from the 12th to the 13th I fired up Google Earth and discovered Golspie does better than I had imagined.

If you measure from the edge of the preceding green to the next tee box it measures in at 563 yards.  If you measure to the center of the next tee box it adds about 99 yards for a total  662.  Were it not for the walkback on six to seven which is 130 yards, it would easily come in under five hundred yards. 

In fact the average walk  would be only 27 yards.  There have to be some other fine British or Irish courses that come in under that number but its still an impressive showing for a very tight and comfortable routing.


Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Carl Johnson on March 04, 2021, 07:19:44 PM
My course, Carolina GC in Charlotte, has very short green to tee transitions, with the exception of 2 to 3 and 9 to 10.  And the 9 to 10 works 'cause you can stop at the swimming pool and get some food and/or liquid refreshment.  That having been said, the 9 to 10 transition was originally 6 to 7, or thereabout, in the original D. Ross layout.  Not perfect, but pretty good.  Works for me.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 05, 2021, 12:22:37 AM
My course, Carolina GC in Charlotte, has very short green to tee transitions, with the exception of 2 to 3 and 9 to 10.  And the 9 to 10 works 'cause you can stop at the swimming pool and get some food and/or liquid refreshment.  That having been said, the 9 to 10 transition was originally 6 to 7, or thereabout, in the original D. Ross layout.  Not perfect, but pretty good.  Works for me.
Carl,
Never played there but a friend raved about it and said it was very walk able.
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 10, 2021, 07:20:00 PM
So here is a quick 2-3 minute video that will show you how to measure using Google Earth. He just happens to be measuring a golf course, and is fairly zoomed out.  I like to zoom all the way in to get as accurate as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMo6cZQtHk

P.S.  This web version is a little older, now you can select your unit of measurement directly in the Distance tool, there is a little pull down option to select if you want feet, yards, miles, etc.

Enjoy and try to not get addicted!  :)
Title: Re: Course with the shortest green to next tee transitions?
Post by: Alex Miller on March 10, 2021, 08:01:55 PM

Wilshire
Holes         Yards
1 to 2     14
2 to 3     8
3 to 4     110 (leave bag, par 3)
4 to 5     15
5 to 6     26
6 to 7     30
7 to 8     46 (leave bag, par 3)
8 to 9     16
9 to 10     190
10 to 11    47 (another convenient bag drop)
11 to 12    15
12 to 13    48 (leave bag, par 3)
13 to 14    16
14 to 15    18
15 to 16    7
16 to 17    37 (another without the bag)
17 to 18    24

Total of 667 yards, 477 without the 9 to 10 transition. If you want to take out spots where you needn't carry your bag that's 379 yards including the walk under Beverly Blvd!