Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on February 08, 2021, 01:19:30 PM
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https://golfclubatlas.com/williamwatsonbydeanknuth/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/williamwatsonbydeanknuth/)
My wife and I like to read mystery books, the only difference being she likes to read the last 20 pages first. As a golfer, I find such tactics abhorrent because if I knew what I was going to shoot beforehand, I would have given up the sport a couple of decades ago! :P ;) Having said that, if you want to skip to the back of Dean Knuth’s piece on William Watson, I understand, for that is where he lists the over 100 courses for which Watson was the driving design force. That’s right – over a 100, which frames the conversation about how William Watson has never received his just due.
Dean, who is a member of Watson’s San Diego CC, has done Watson proud by assembling this meticulously researched piece. Laced with newspaper quotes throughout, Dean’s work conveys Watson's prominent stature in the game during the Golden Age. In Watson, we have a genuine minimalist. Dean highlights this quote from Watson: 'A good rule is to stress the importance of fitting in all grading work to harmonize with the surrounding territory, mounds, slopes, grassy hollows, sand pits, all have their values in beautifying the setting of our greens and in giving them distinctive definition — if artificially arranged without appearance of artificiality.'
Dean states, ‘From my point of view, besides being a minimalist just as he said, Watson was a master at routing golf holes on the land that he was provided. While he preferred land with significant rolls, dips and terrain, he did very well in laying-out courses on all types of land where he could envision a unique feature for each hole—and all without moving much land. He could envision sidewalls to bound the ball right or left, he could use horses to create contours on flat areas, and he used other skills to keep his courses from ever producing monotony.’
Three of the best roly-poly sites he ever received are White Bear Yacht Club, Orinda and Belvedere. All three are presented wonderfully today and stand as shining examples of Watson’s talent. Of course, for years WBYC was classed as a Ross but several brave members have established that it is Watson that deserves the primary credit. That’s in part why what Dean has done is so important – Watson was a first class Golden Age architect and if more people understood how talented the Scot was and how proud they should be to have a Watson course, then the direction that his courses evolve might well be different.
Dean highlights some of Watson’s best courses that are RIP like those at Olympic and Olympia Fields. If his work with Sam Whiting on the Ocean Links course for Olympic still existed, his profile today would be much higher as that ocean front course would still have everyone swooning. Also, Dean points out that Watson’s contributions to the California municipal golf scene seem to go completely unrecognized, including Garvanza Links in 1900 which apparently was the first municipal course built on the Pacific Coast. Watson moved to Los Angeles in 1899 when LA had a population of ~ 100,000. A club maker, teacher and architect, Watson played an outsized role in helping to establish golf in California.
Dean sums up Watson thusly, 'Watson embraced a minimalist design philosophy, where golf holes were found and not built. He disliked artificiality. Every bunker and mound he constructed had a purpose. Some shapes were simple, others more complex, but always he insisted on naturalness.' What’s not to admire?! Here is a Scot who immigrated to America and built great courses here at a key time in the sport’s development. It is indeed high time that William Watson’s accomplishments finally receive their due.
Dean has done what he set out to do: create a starting point to discuss what William Watson (and indeed the whole Watson family) meant to golf. He can be reached at dknuth@cox.net and would be most appreciative by whoever would be so kind as to share additional information on the Watson family. For instance, the fate of William’s wife Ada (who was integral to his design business) remains a mystery. Please help Dean gather information and he, in turn, will reward this readership with his further findings.
Best,
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Nice to see the "pope of slope" branching out. Interesting about the provenance of some of the MN courses. San Diego CC is a sleeper of a course I loved it on my only play about fifteen years ago.
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The part about Ada Watson coming up with the idea of a gravel base for putting greens is especially interesting.
The article says this was standard practice for Watson's later courses. Has anyone doing renovation work dug up something like that? I vaguely remember seeing a gravel layer for some work we did at WBYC - maybe the 7th green?
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Tom-I'm thinking it was the 8th green, which you and Jim rebuilt in 1995 if memory serves!
(https://i.ibb.co/XjChCsy/IMG-1387.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFwCw6b)
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Wow - what an incredible article, Dean! Thank you for sharing.
Lots to unpack but as a WBYC member I really, really enjoyed it. Loved all the different profiles of the courses he designed.
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Glad to see Ridgeview CC in Duluth MN on the list. RCC sits on a knob with humps, hollows and crazy side slopes. It had a great ninth hole with almost a volcano green except it was shaped like figure eight. The club, in a move of extreme short sightedness tore it down so they could have a range! I really learned how to “play” golf at the View which you either love or hate. Great greens to this day.
I was under the impression that Watson also designed the original nine at Cloquet CC but do not see it on the list. There has been lots of rumor it was a Ross design but Watson is more likely. Whoever did this nine it is a fabulous nine holer (or was until they built a second nine).
Great article Dean!
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Well done. It takes a long time and lots of effort to research to write a piece like this.
atb
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How much of Interlachen is Watson, and how much did Ross do to it in his redesign? Would be curious, given Watson's comments on the course, if there are any holes there that were left somewhat unchanged by Ross.
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Great stuff, absolutely fascinating. Thanks, Dean and Ran.
If I could only play one course for the rest of my life, Belvedere and White Bear would be candidates.
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How much of Interlachen is Watson, and how much did Ross do to it in his redesign? Would be curious, given Watson's comments on the course, if there are any holes there that were left somewhat unchanged by Ross.
The 1920 reports called Ross' work a total rearrangement.
Sven
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Tom-I'm thinking it was the 8th green, which you and Jim rebuilt in 1995 if memory serves!
(https://i.ibb.co/XjChCsy/IMG-1387.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFwCw6b)
Mark:
We did rebuild that green, but we didn't find any trace of Watson's original green, which had been rebuilt sometime in the 1960's or 70's, I think. Originally the green was much more blind, and nobody at the time wanted us to consider putting it back the way it was -- which we had a hard time getting a feel for, anyway. Instead, we built a new version of the redesigned green.
The one we replaced had so much back to front slope that a ball wouldn't stay on the front 2/3 of the green anymore -- most approach shots would hit, and then roll back off the left front!
I just vaguely remembered that when we got into the bunkers at the front of the par-5 7th that we hit a bunch of gravel, which surprised me.
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Tom Doak,
How deep would the gravel be under the green surface, if it were still there?
Wonder if we could take a sample out of a green (the 7th), and see if it's still there. They just put XGD in the greens last year, not sure if that's deep enough to hit that gravel though?
Thanks.
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Tom Doak,
How deep would the gravel be under the green surface, if it were still there?
I know that in the old days, designers and engineers tended to put drainage infrastructure deeper underground than we do today, to use capillary action to pull the water down. So, it's possible that the gravel layer would be deeper than the 12-18 inches at which it would be installed today. But if so they would have used the same prepared soils from there up . . . so if you hit anything resembling native soils, you could stop digging.
Also note that they would not have installed a gravel layer when working in sandy soils; Scotsmen are too practical for that. 😉
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Glad to see Ridgeview CC in Duluth MN on the list. RCC sits on a knob with humps, hollows and crazy side slopes. It had a great ninth hole with almost a volcano green except it was shaped like figure eight. The club, in a move of extreme short sightedness tore it down so they could have a range! I really learned how to “play” golf at the View which you either love or hate. Great greens to this day.
I was under the impression that Watson also designed the original nine at Cloquet CC but do not see it on the list. There has been lots of rumor it was a Ross design but Watson is more likely. Whoever did this nine it is a fabulous nine holer (or was until they built a second nine).
Great article Dean!
Tom, I suspected Watson might have been the original designer at Cloquet, as I was told by someone at the club that their lore held that a "Scotsman" returning from a design job in Duluth had stopped by and laid out Cloquet's original 9 holes. The club has always claimed that mysterious visitor was Ross, but as neither Ross, his office nor any historian has ever offered any evidence of his work there, the Ross myth is easy to dismiss. Watson returning from his work at Ridgeview in Duluth made more sense, but in the Oct. 1938, St. Paul Pioneer Press obituary for WBYC pro Tom Vardon, Cloquet was included in a list of dozens of courses Vardon - an Englishman - designed in the upper Midwest. That's my current conclusion: the original 9 hole course at Cloquet is a Vardon.
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Thanks Rick! Hope all is well in Stillwater. Whoever did the original nine at CCC did a fantastic job. The ninth hole (now 18) and 4 are all time great par 3s.
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The part about Ada Watson coming up with the idea of a gravel base for putting greens is especially interesting.
The article says this was standard practice for Watson's later courses. Has anyone doing renovation work dug up something like that? I vaguely remember seeing a gravel layer for some work we did at WBYC - maybe the 7th green?
IIRC, this was found at Olympia Fields, but only reported at the #4 course, now the North, which is a Willie Park Jr. classic. Others more knowledgeable can chime in but none of the original greens on what is now the South course(a combo of courses 1, 2 and 3 and a couple new holes) have been “dug up” enough to find a gravel base, but maybe Andy Staples might go deep.
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The part about Ada Watson coming up with the idea of a gravel base for putting greens is especially interesting.
The article says this was standard practice for Watson's later courses. Has anyone doing renovation work dug up something like that? I vaguely remember seeing a gravel layer for some work we did at WBYC - maybe the 7th green?
IIRC, this was found at Olympia Fields, but only reported at the #4 course, now the North, which is a Willie Park Jr. classic. Others more knowledgeable can chime in but none of the original greens on what is now the South course(a combo of courses 1, 2 and 3 and a couple new holes) have been “dug up” enough to find a gravel base, but maybe Andy Staples might go deep.
Terry:
What holes on the South are from the #3 course? My understanding was that only holes 8 and 9 were taken from the #2 course.
Sven
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Deleted and sent to Ran.
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Wanakah for years attempted to claim Donald J. Ross, jr. lineage. That attempt was back in the days when William Watson was known as Willie Watson. Watson must have hired, from beyond the grave, a PR firm, as he has now been recast, in such a distinguished manner, as William. Wanakah was designed as a fun, summer club for Buffalo's magnates, many of whom would depart the city environs for pagodas along the lake shore to the south. Chris Wilczynski did a fab job with his chainsaw in the last decade, and opened up vistas across what was a tree-ridden course. When Wanakah's green speeds are up, watch out. It doesn't need much beyond 10 on the stimp to give you the shivers.
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Orinda is home to the founder of FlagBag golf bag company, one of the coolest joints to come along in recent years. Dude is the super there, and seems to be an all-around approachable, good guy.
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Sven,
I’m sure you’re right because you’ve done the research and I’m dependent upon gca dementia!
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Seeing as my name is attached to the essay, I'd like to take the opportunity to provide additional comment on the "Marty Joy List" of Watson courses included at the end of the piece.
I've previously relayed comments on both the list and the text of the essay to Dean. Some of the comments were minor in nature (i.e. the difference between naturalism and minimalism), while some perhaps might hold greater historical significance to others (i.e. the timing of Ross working at St. Andrews and leaving for the US, Willie Bell becoming famous for remodeling Watson's courses).
I'll let Dean do what he thinks is right with respect to the comments I've made on the essay itself. As far as the course list goes, I'd like to see an effort made to clean up what is there. The Marty Joy list has existed in the ether of the internet for far too long as a definitive list of Watson's work, despite the fact it is flawed. I spent some time a while back on another thread trying to address these flaws (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61453.0.html). Dean has the opportunity to address the flaws in that list here, and I hope he does so as his work will be found, used and referred to as a definitive source by those that come across it in the future, just as the Marty Joy list has been erroneously similarly used.
I'm going to work through the list as it appears in Dean's essay. If there is no comment on a particular course, you can assume I have nothing to add to the record as presented. If anyone else has any additional information with respect to any course as it comes up, please add it in.
The Minikahda Club - Minneapolis, MN 1898
The date here should be 1899.
April 12, 1899 Star Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Minikahda_-_Star_Tribune_April_12,_1899.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/7697ec32-8bf3-47f9-80be-8a94d9e98164)
1900 Harpers -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Minikahda_-_Harpers_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/044e38d8-8d2e-41ee-91fd-5c81a914fcaa)
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Hollywood Country Club - Hollywood, CA 1898
In the essay it is noted that Watson’s first trip to CA was in late 1899. He couldn’t have laid out a course there in 1898.
In addition, the first records of a course with this name start in 1919 (laid out by F. A. Peebles). Watson worked on this 1919 course in 1921.
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Casa Loma - Redlands, CA 1899
This course was laid out by Thomas Arnold in Sept. 1899. I have seen no evidence that Watson was involved here.
The essay suggests that Casa Loma became Redlands CC, but these were different courses, as you can see by the 1900 Harpers Guide entries for each course.
Sept. 30, 1899 San Francisco Call -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Casa_Loma_-_San_Francisco_Call_Sept._30,_1899.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/ec9f94c8-1e40-4b50-9b85-19022f49bcff)
1900 Harpers -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Casa_Loma_-_Harpers_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/66dd6200-fb7f-4b04-86cb-e02949b2fa67)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Redlands_-_Harpers_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/8f5b5a58-6b83-4e50-97d3-4620d98994d1)
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Ferndale Course - Ferndale, MN 1899 (6 Hole Course)
I can find no evidence of a course by this name or a course at this location. If any evidence of its existence is out there, I'd love to see it.
Edit: Dean forwarded an online piece by Joe Bissen on Ferndale (found in the link below). The course did indeed exist, and it is possible it was laid out by Watson, but I have not yet seen that evidence other than the notation on the Marty Joy list. Bissen notes that Watson did visit Ferndale to give lessons.
http://www.foregonegolf.com/ferndale-part-1 (http://www.foregonegolf.com/ferndale-part-1)
Edit 2: Three articles on Ferndale.
May 7, 1899 Star Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Minnetonka:Ferndale_-_Star_Tribune_May_7,_1899.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/9c404851-03f6-4dbc-b355-09115614c7cb)
June 25, 1899 Star Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Ferndale_-_Star_Tribune_June_25,_1899.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/8c375abb-42b9-409f-a3a1-1e908daef93f)
May 2, 1900 Star Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Ferndale:Lafayette_-_Star_Tribune_May_2,_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/184730b2-a1dc-4078-a1fc-2f73554c39da)
Finally, a later May 8, 1910 article (I am still trying to verify the exact source) that notes Watson was working on his third Minneapolis course, the others being Minikahda and Lafayette. The omission of Ferndale suggests that it might not have been his work, assuming it would have been considered a Minneapolis course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/ww_snip_1_050810.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/b0b9cd23-3402-435e-8d35-17d857733b20)
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Hotel Green - Pasadena, CA 1899 (r)
The course opened in 1900, so Watson’s work must have been done after 1899. Watson was the professional and greenskeeper here, so it is highly likely he worked on the course although I have not seen anything as of yet that confirms this work.
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Lafayette Club - Minnetonka Beach, MN 1899 (9 holes), still operating
Reports have this as laid out by John Ball.
1900 Harpers -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Lafayette_-_Harpers_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/a0fc6b6c-a44b-4db1-8d26-ecb48b7bcb5e)
Edit: The May 8, 1910 article referenced above confirms Watson having laid out the course. My best guess is that Ball did indeed lay out the club's first course, with Watson doing the new course that was referenced to in 1900.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/ww_snip_1_050810.JPG?[font=Verdana][size=78%]width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/b0b9cd23-3402-435e-8d35-17d857733b20)
May 2, 1900 Star Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Ferndale:Lafayette_-_Star_Tribune_May_2,_1900.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/184730b2-a1dc-4078-a1fc-2f73554c39da)
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Bryn Mawr Golf Club - Minneapolis, MN 1899 (r)
I haven't seen anything yet that confirms Watson's involvement here. Not ruling it out, but it would be helpful to see a contemporaneous account.
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Hotel Raymond - Pasadena, CA 1900 & 1901 (r)
Reports indicated the course was built in 1901 by a Willie Smith.
April 17, 1901 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Hotel_Raymond_-_Los_Angeles_Times_April_17,_1901.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/90396a7a-39ae-4043-abe5-5fe289bb2781)
Watson did work here later.
May 1914 Fargo Forum and Daily Republican -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Fargo_-_Fargo_Forum_and_Daily_Republican_May_1914.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/59472c9c-0bd2-403c-a3a7-0fd976eefe00)
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Pasadena Golf Club - Pasadena, CA 1900 (r) & 1920 (r) and since 1946 is the Altadena Town & Country Club
Here's the basic timeline of Pasadena/Altadena:
1898 - Pasadena CC laid out by C. E. Orr
1900 - Watson engaged by Pasadena CC as professional
1911 - Watson lays out an 18 hole course for the Altadena CC (this course is covered later in the listing)
1920 - Pasadena GC took over the land of Altadena CC with George O'Neil and Jack Croke to build three new courses
There is more to the story, but this is enough to note the timing of the three different courses. Watson may have had some involvement renovating the early Pasadena CC while he was professional, but this course was gone by 1920 and was not the course that later became Altadena T&CC.
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Garvanza Links - Pasadena, CA 1901, also called Los Angeles Golf Links
Watson did lay out a course in late 1901, but it was commonly known as the Los Angeles Public Links. I can find no mention of a "Garvanza Links" in the early press. I have also found nothing to confirm that the course was funded by the city of Los Angeles, as the essay suggests.
Edit:
Here are two early articles referencing the course, its name and Watson's involvement.
July 15, 1901 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Los_Angeles_Public_-_Los_Angeles_Times_July_15,_1901.png) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/8fa7f742-7063-45f4-9af2-76cc7f587666)
Dec. 1901 Golf Magazine -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Los_Angeles_Public_-_Golf_Magazine_Dec._1901.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/00ba1f54-522e-4339-8234-bbea85fcfba1)
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Seattle Golf Club - Laurelhurst, WA 1901
This is one where I'd like to see a contemporaneous report of Watson's involvement.
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Hotel Frontenac Golf Club - Round Island, NY 1904 (r ex)
Another one it would be helpful to see a contemporaneous report of his work.
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Presidio - San Francisco, CA (Rebuilt by Watson in 1905)
Later reports from the 1920's note this as a past Watson project, but don't list the date. I have not seen anything that confirms the exact timing of when he worked here.
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Annandale Golf Club - Pasadena, CA 1906, 1919 (r)
The 1919 work has previously been confirmed. Still haven't seen anything that discusses any work prior to that.
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Denver CC - Denver, CO 1907 (r)
I don't have anything that confirms Watson did any work here, but a W. Watson was noted as the professional in the 1908 Golfers' Guide.
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La Cumbre GC - Santa Barbara, CA 1908
Noted as a Watson project in a 1920's listing of Watson's work, but I have seen nothing that confirms the exact dates of his involvement.
I also haven't seen anything that dates the club itself back to 1908. The reports I have seen indicate the club was organized in 1916 with a 9 hole course first built by Charles Clark and replaced shortly thereafter by an 18 hole Bendelow course.
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Virginia Country Club first site, now Recreation Park GC - Long Beach, CA 1909
Watson was involved at this course around 1924 with Willie Bell after VCC moved to its new site and the old course was taken over by the city of Long Beach. I have not seen any evidence that he did any work on the course prior to then.
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Brentwood CC - Brentwood, CA 1910
Brentwood did not get its start until around 1915/16. When it was first built, Watson did not have anything to do with the project.
Jan. 11, 1916 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Brentwood_-_Los_Angeles_Times_Jan._11,_1916.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/71d99c50-50b9-4251-a22e-1872c83ac9b0)
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The La Crosse Club - La Crosse, WI 1912
I can find no evidence of Watson working in La Crosse or of a new course being built here around this time.
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Ravisloe CC - Homewood, Il 1912 (r)
Watson did work here, but the date should be 1910 as his remodeling was reported in the Dec. 1910 American Golfer.
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The Golf Links - Wellesley Island, NY 1913
The Aug. 17, 1913 edition of the Syracuse Herald notes Watson working on the course of Frank Lowden on Wellesley Island. It is possible that this private course became the Wellesley Island Club which is noted in a July 1922 Golf Illustrated article and the 1923 Annual Guide.
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San Marcos Hotel Golf Course - Chandler, AZ 1913 (w/ Harry Collis)
There were two courses built at the San Marcos Hotel, the first in 1913 and the second around 1927/28. All reports on the first course note it was designed by Collis, with no mention of Watson.
Watson was involved with the second course.
Nov. 11, 1928 Arizona Republic -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/San_Marcos_-_Arizona_Republic_Nov._11,_1928.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/041c153e-a435-4636-8ab6-6ab024251763)
Dec. 30, 1928 Arizona Republic -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/San_Marcos_-_Arizona_Republic_Dec._30,_1928.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/69d7874c-2089-448c-827a-f8ff4ad01d3d)
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Lincoln Park - San Francisco, CA 1914 & 1922 (r)
This course is noted twice on the list in the essay.
The article below discusses the 1922/23 work, but I have seen nothing to confirm the 1914 work.
July 16, 1923 Oakland Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Lincoln_Park_-_Oakland_Tribune_July_16,_1923.png) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/c873c299-a8bc-40df-a9f3-fb6158c3052c)
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Tucson CC - Tucson, AZ 1914 (now the site of Randolph North)
A couple of articles note Watson visiting Tucson to locate a site for the new club.
Jan. 27, 1914 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_Los_Angeles_Times_Jan._27,_1914.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/412e96f5-9830-42cf-b1e9-b72d3fca6dc0)
Feb. 26, 1914 El Paso Herald -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_El_Paso_Herald_Feb._26,_1914.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/17c4e256-a838-42fc-a6a4-8deed04f02af)
March 1914 American Golfer -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_American_Golfer_March_1914.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/413cfd84-8160-4bf1-9197-dbcf9667ee10)
However, several other sources note the course was laid out by Jack Adams.
Feb. 18, 1914 Arizona Republic -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_Arizona_Republic_Feb._18,_1914.jpeg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/c6d36f6f-e6a6-462e-bd91-2eba989d0c85)
April 1914 American Golfer -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_American_Golfer_April_1914_(1).png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/937d19bb-f94b-45da-b07e-53d68a4666cb)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_American_Golfer_April_1914_(2).png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/f33957ba-67e2-4064-98b6-ca7e3e74d561)
Jan. 1916 Golfers Magazine -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_Golfers_Magazine_Jan._1916_(1).png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/4b88f506-f3b7-47c0-8609-10db973d41b4)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Tucson_-_Golfers_Magazine_Jan._1916_(2).png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/633c2a85-82b9-46cb-a8e8-164d34c1b423)
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Kalamazoo CC - Kalamazoo, MI 1915 (r & ex)
Bendelow laid out a 9 hole course in 1909. The course is noted as having 9 holes in the Annual Guides up to 1925, which is the first mention of the expansion to 18.
I have seen no evidence of Watson's involvement here.
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Olympia Fields CC #1 - Olympia Fields, IL 1916 (r & ex w/ Bendelow, but their work no longer exists)
The first course at OFCC was probably mostly Tom Bendelow, but reports indicate Watson was involved. In any case, the course is still there and a large part of the early work remains, including most of the routing.
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Minneapolis GC - Golden Valley, MN - 1916 - 1920 (r & ex w/ Bendelow - today Golden Valley G&CC)
I have seen no evidence of Watson's involvement here. All contemporaneous reports note Bendelow doing the initial layout and Tillinghast revamping the course in the late 1920's.
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Sunset Hill CC - St. Louis, MO 1917 (w/ Foulis brothers)
The work of Robert and Jim Foulis here was reported in 1915. There is a Jan. 19, 1919 Chicago Tribune article noting the course was the work of six leading architects. It is possible Watson collaborated on the design with others, but I have not seen any reports linking him to the project.
Edit: The following April 9, 1920 San Diego Union and Daily Bee article notes Watson was recently engaged in supervision of the course. I'd like a bit more information on the timing of his work and what exactly he did.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/San_Diego_CC_-_San_Diego_Union_and_Daily_Bee_April_9,_1920.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/7cf3f52d-e9a5-4da1-9faa-1243e15df397)
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Winona CC - Winona, MN 1917 (Bendelow r in 1917)
This course was laid out by Bendelow in 1919. I have not seen any evidence of Watson being involved here.
April 3, 1919 Chicago Daily Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Bendelow_-_Chicago_Daily_Tribune_April_3,_1919.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/03188b21-3db6-4bea-9326-15c8d1f8adaa)
Nov. 20, 1930 Winona Daily News -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Winona_First_Course_-_Winona_Daily_News_Nov._20,_1930.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/bde954aa-3d21-4c5e-a938-dcd0b09c7d88)
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Olympia Fields CC #2 - Olympia Fields, IL 1918 (work no longer exists)
The second course at OFCC was definitely Watson. Parts of three holes remain today as the 8th and 9th holes on the South Course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/OFCC_4_Courses_from_75th_Anniversary_Book-064.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/8859fa88-4b05-4057-b8f6-30184f86e789)
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Hollywood Country Club - Hollywood, CA 1919, 18 holes and added 9 holes in 1921
Watson definitely added 9 holes to the project in 1921, and reworked the existing 9 holes at that time. I have not seen anything linking Watson to the initial work in 1919, although reports indicated the involvement of a number of professionals and architects.
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Olympia Fields CC #3 - Olympia Fields, IL 1920 (w/Bendelow) (work no longer exists)
The third course here was reported as being all Bendelow. All of it has been lost to development and the construction of the driving range at the club.
It wouldn't be a surprise if Watson collaborated in some way on the design of #3. They did so on at least one of the other courses.
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Colorado Springs GC - Denver, CO 1921 (r 1927)
This was an existing course when Watson remodeled it an expanded it from 16 to 18 holes in 1919. He returned in 1927 for further work.
Nov. 6, 1919 Spokane Chronicle -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Colorado_Springs_-_Spokane_Chronicle_Nov._6,_1919.png) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/ce5f79e6-a089-43de-a43d-406682fbe562)
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Beverly Terrace GC - Oakland, CA 1921 (a municipal nine holes 20 minutes from the city that did not last past the Depression)
There is no record of this course ever having been completed or opened.
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Rio Rosarito Golf & Field club, 1921, Rosarito, Baja, Mexico (now Real Del Mar)
There is no evidence this course was ever built. Real Del Mar is a completely different course that was built in the 1970's.
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Encinal G&CC - Alameda, CA 1922 (San Francisco Call, 12 May 1922, describes in depth that Watson, not Lock designed the course with Jack McCloud as his construction superintendent)
Here's the May 12, 1922 article referenced above -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Encinal_-_San_Francisco_Call_May_12,_1922_(1).png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/10cb0f2e-6461-442d-a3ba-66768d4e08d8)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Encinal_-_San_Francisco_Call_May_12,_1922_(2).png) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/242c3d16-aa10-408c-a214-ba72d2120439)
Watson did replace Lock as the architect for the project. Later reports note that Jack Mayo replaced McLeod as construction supervisor.
July 29, 1922 Oakland Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Encinal_-_Oakland_Tribune_July_29,_1922.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/b30f02bb-6316-41be-86cb-c7e5cc03bb99)
Aug. 1, 1922 San Francisco Call -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Encinal_-_San_Francisco_Call_Aug._1,_1922.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/2e750cc0-04e9-4411-bcda-236ddbbdf493)
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Rocky Mountain CC, Denver, CA - 1922
This is one where I'd like to see confirmation of Watson's involvement.
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Clover Field Golf Course - Santa Monica, CA 1923 (First laid out by Watson, fully opened in 1928 and George Merritt then was credited). Name changed to Santa Monica GC.
I have not seen anything that links Watson to the project.
Here are the two articles discussing Merritt's involvement.
April 9, 1927 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Santa_Monica_Municipal_(Clover_Field)_-_Los_Angeles_Times_April_9,_1927.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/7df9f01e-2dd9-493f-bc6e-5e8b2b257753)
July 24, 1927 Los Angeles Times -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Santa_Monica_Municipal_(Clover_Field)_-_Los_Angeles_Times_July_24,_1927.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/94fc6c1a-9dc1-4319-9fab-7f1094e69d80)
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Turlock CC - Turlock, CA 1924
I have not seen anything linking Watson to Turlock. The article below notes the course was to be laid out by Ian McDonald.
Aug. 6, 1923 Modesto Evening News -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Turlock_-_Modesto_Evening_News_Aug._6,_1923.jpeg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/7f1666bc-83c6-4afd-b663-900d0643eb6a)
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Castlewood Country Club - Pleasanton, CA 1925 (first course, opened Oct. 17, 1926 according to Livermore Journal with grassed greens. Later (r) by Billy Bell Sr.)
There was one initial report of Watson being involved with the project, but every subsequent discussion notes this as a Billy Bell course with George Thomas in an advisory capacity.
July 26, 1925 Oakland Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Castlewood_-_Oakland_Tribune_July_26,_1925.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/783051bc-3bb4-4daf-b21c-33b4331d28e4)
Sept. 28, 1925 The Daily Notes -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Castlewood_-_The_Daily_Notes_Sept._28,_1925.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/c13fd65b-1102-49d9-8f19-2c87acafdd11)
Oct. 30, 1926 Santa Ana Register -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Castlewood_-_Santa_Ana_Register_Oct._30,_1926.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/d86db285-1fb6-438d-9f91-37deb38c47c7)
March 21, 1927 Oakland Tribune -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Castlewood_-_Oakland_Tribune_March_21,_1927.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/30468390-a286-4e77-8a1c-1ef22a3e2e4d)
July 8, 1927 San Francisco Examiner -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Castlewood_-_San_Francisco_Examiner_July_8,_1927.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/00fa51ec-8619-4df8-a024-0d3699b71d41)
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Multnomah GC - Portland, OR 1925 (Routing by Watson, Credited to Willie Locke)
I have not seen anything linking Watson to Multnomah.
There is plenty of evidence for Locke.
March 28, 1924 The News Review -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Multonomah_-_The_News-Review_March_28,_1924.jpeg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/d4178dd8-d1d4-4da7-a577-168d88ceef40)
Locke's Plan -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Multonomah_Plan.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/14dcf0e0-6f7b-4904-983a-9f7436185752)
Aerial of the course -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Multnomah_Aerial.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/981872b8-29f9-4ae0-a891-d35b61e2f35c)
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San Gorgonio CC - Beaumont, CA 1926 (9 hole)
I have not seen any evidence of Watson working here. As a 1,700 yard 9 holer when built, it doesn't really match his m.o.
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Shawnee Country Club - Lima, OH 1927 (r) of Bendelow 1909 course
I haven't seen anything confirming Watson's work here. The course was extended from 9 to 18 holes around 1922.
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South Shore GC - Momence, IL 1927
Not sure if this is a confused reference to Minne-Monesse (where Watson's activity has been confirmed) or a separate project. In either case, I haven't seen anything linking Watson to a project by this name.
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Momence Links - Momence, IL 1928
Another Momence project with no evidence that seems like a reference to a different project.
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Sonoma GC - Sonoma, CA 1928 (w/ Whiting)
Whiting's involvement here has been confirmed. I haven't seen anything that notes he worked with Watson on this project.
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A few additions to the list:
Northland CC in 1920
Duluth Herald, Sept. 10, 1920
An update to Ingleside Club in Phoenix in 1927 and [size=78%]Portrero.[/size]
Sept. 27, 1927 Arizona Republic -
Biona.
August 26, 1923 Los Angeles Times -
Coarsegold, CA.May 24, 1924 Visalia Daily Times -
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No wonder the Pope of Slope hasn't been answering email. Ran and Sven have been keeping him busy.
If KP ever returns to the central coast, perhaps they can give Paso Robles {Golf,Country} Club a go.
Unless of course Sven gets on here and disavows Watson working there. ;)
Thanks Dean, and Ran for the article.
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I don't exactly follow what's happening here.
Sven is credited as having assisted on this piece, but now is claiming that the essay includes dozens of falsehoods or inaccuracies?
Pretty sure any reputable publication called into question on so many potential inaccuracies would take said article offline until remedied. Should GCA do the same?
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Reputable !!? Have you seen some of the posters on here ! ;)
Mark
In all seriousness, this is an opinion piece posted on a discussion board. It's there to be read, questioned, discussed and indeed pulled apart. It's also a history piece and like all history is open to revision. That said, some of Sven's comments along the line of "I haven't seen the evidence" suggest he's setting himself up as judge and jury. If Sven is concerned that the course list used by Dean is so basically flawed then perhaps the thing to do is for him to write his own opinion piece based on his course list rather than trying to have someone else revise theirs based on Sven's views. Just a thought.
Niall
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Reputable !!? Have you seen some of the posters on here ! ;)
Mark
In all seriousness, this is an opinion piece posted on a discussion board. It's there to be read, questioned, discussed and indeed pulled apart. It's also a history piece and like all history is open to revision. That said, some of Sven's comments along the line of "I haven't seen the evidence" suggest he's setting himself up as judge and jury. If Sven is concerned that the course list used by Dean is so basically flawed then perhaps the thing to do is for him to write his own opinion piece based on his course list rather than trying to have someone else revise theirs based on Sven's views. Just a thought.
Niall
Niall -
Read the very last paragraph of Dean's artlcle again. Hopefully you can understand why I at least want to play "lawyer" on my own behalf.
I agree that any opinion piece presented on this site is open game for being questioned, discussed and pulled apart. And hopefully we all can all recognize what is being presented as opinion and what is being presented as fact.
Sven
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Maybe I'm not understanding the "opinion" angle here. It's basically a biography or long-form resume about Watson's work.
Nowhere can "opinion" factor into something like the course once known as Rio Rosarito is now operating as Real del Mar. Either it is the same course as Dean asserts, or Real del Mar is an entirely different project conceived some 30+ years after Watson's death, as Sven contends.
In my opinion... It's embarrassing for this site to post historical essays riddled with errors or poorly researched facts.
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Mark
This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks. If Dean hadn't taken the time to research and write his opinion piece Sven wouldn't have chipped in with his work and then we'd have no discussion on Watson and therefore who would learn anything about Watson. If it makes you feel better, just think of this as a peer review.
Sven
I suppose Dean is damned if he doesn't acknowledge your input and now he is damned for doing so because he either didn't agree with your input or took someone else's view over yours. At the end of the day it is an opinion piece and it's Deans opinion. You are of course entitled to comment and I didn't mean to infer otherwise, that was not my intent. Thinking about it however, I wonder if there is a better way of doing things but I'll save that for a separate thread.
Niall
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Mark
This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks.
Geeks, more than anyone, should seek the truth when it comes to matters of historical record. Essays like this have the potential of being referenced for generations to come, so it's highly irresponsible to excuse inaccuracies simply because they're posted under the heading of "In My Opinion."
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Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.
I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.
I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit south of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Other Momence references are actually for South Shore.
Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.
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Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.
I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.
I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit north of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Another other Momence reference are actually for South Shore.
Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.
Tim:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't South Shore located southwest of Minne-Monesse, on the south bank of the river?
Do you have any articles or other sources that discuss South Shore? I have searched around a good bit, and the first mentions I can find of the course are from the 1960's. While Minne-Monesse appears in the Annual Guides from the late 1920's, there is no mention of South Shore.
Is it possible South Shore was known as Garden of Eden GC, or was that a completely different course located near Momence. Garden of Eden appears in the 1931 Annual Guide with a date of organization of 1927 and 9 holes.
I've also looked on historic aerials, and in the earliest aerial for the area from 1952 it appears that there was a golf course on the South Shore site. By the looks of later aerials it looks like the course was extended to 18 holes after that 1952 date.
Glad that you agree that the inclusion of "Momence Links" is a mistake.
Sven
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Mark
This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks.
Geeks, more than anyone, should seek the truth when it comes to matters of historical record. Essays like this have the potential of being referenced for generations to come, so it's highly irresponsible to excuse inaccuracies simply because they're posted under the heading of "In My Opinion."
Mark
I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important. Besides, when it comes to the history of golf courses it is often a matter of opinion based on imperfect "knowledge" gleaned from press reports. Who's to say Sven is right in his corrections or that Dean was right all along ? Personally, I'm thankful to both these gentlemen for taking the time to share what they have.
Niall
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Niall -
You've already posted a number of times on a thread that you obviously don't care about, yet have the gall to claim that lockdown is getting to others.
If this isn't that important to you, please do us the favor of letting those of us to whom it is continue the conversation without you mucking it up.
Sven
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Mark
I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important.
Do you even know what website you're on? Hint: It's not ApologistAtlas.com.
Also, you'd better inform Ran. Because he stated in the establishing post of this thread that setting Watson's record correct is, in fact, important.
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Sven
If I didn't care about it why am I reading this thread ? Why am I taking the time to post ? Simply put I am interested in the history of golf. I might not have anything substantive to add about the courses but that's not to say I'm not interested. My lockdown comment was intended as gentle humour and as a means of encouraging Mark to look at things in perspective. If the last year has taught some of us anything it is that the history of a sport isn't that important.
I might add that I say that as someone who has spent an inordinate amount of time (and money) looking through golf magazines, journals and newspapers, online, in print and at source. I've trawled through dusty archives, visited numerous libraries and travelled round the country doing so. All in the pursuit of golf history. So yes, I have the gall to suggest that golf course history isn't that important relatively speaking.
I might add that if you consider my posts for a moment, you might note that I'm actually encouraging the continuation of the discussion rather than having it closed down as Mark seems to want. I'd have thought that would be something you'd be quite happy about.
Niall
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Mark
I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important.
Do you even know what website you're on? Hint: It's not ApologistAtlas.com.
Also, you'd better inform Ran. Because he stated in the establishing post of this thread that setting Watson's record correct is, in fact, important.
Mark
When you set golf course history beside beating COVID, fighting poverty etc, how important is it really ? Unless you are a complete dickhead I think you'd readily agree the answer is not very. Is that so difficult to say even on a golf course architecture site ? Otherwise, see my response to Sven above.
Niall
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Now you're simply backtracking by trying to compare golf history with real "important" matters. I never said this was important in a vast, universal sense (although, considering current events, it could be argued that the pursuit of truth is more important than ever).
But the venue matters. You're not on some generalist website. You're on a site solely dedicated to golf architecture. So in that context, it's certainly important.
Since the "time" invested is seemingly all it takes to garner your respect, would you likewise be thankful for a long-form piece on how Robert Trent Jones Sr. is actually a descendant of the planet Golfdar, sent to Earth to proliferate bowling alley fairways and to propagate as many future golf course architects as possible? It could take me hours, days, or even weeks to write it, so I bet you'd love it!
For the record, I'm not taking any sides here. All I know is many of the "facts" presented in the essay have come under question, and I think it would be good to examine those further. (And if it was my website, I'd probably prefer that not be done publicly after writing such a glowing introduction to said essay.)
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Now you're simply backtracking by trying to compare golf history with real "important" matters. I never said this was important in a vast, universal sense (although, considering current events, it could be argued that the pursuit of truth is more important than ever). Backtracking ? So what did you think I was comparing it to ?
But the venue matters. You're not on some generalist website. You're on a site solely dedicated to golf architecture. So in that context, it's certainly important. Yes context matters, and that was exactly the point I was making about this being an enthusiasts discussion board. Where else would you post a piece like Deans ?
Since the "time" invested is seemingly all it takes to garner your respect, would you likewise be thankful for a long-form piece on how Robert Trent Jones Sr. is actually a descendant of the planet Golfdar, sent to Earth to proliferate bowling alley fairways and to propagate as many future golf course architects as possible? It could take me hours, days, or even weeks to write it, so I bet you'd love it!
For the record, I'm not taking any sides here. Really !!!! All I know is many of the "facts" presented in the essay have come under question, and I think it would be good to examine those further. Absolutely. So how are you suggesting that is done if not online and in the open ? After all you seem to be a big fan of getting to the "truth". (And if it was my website, I'd probably prefer that not be done publicly after writing such a glowing introduction to said essay.) Thankfully it isn't your website and Ran seems to be very happy to allow folk to come forward with ideas and opinions and for those ideas and opinions to be discussed in a mostly friendly manner. Long may that continue.
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Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.
I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.
I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit north of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Another other Momence reference are actually for South Shore.
Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.
Tim:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't South Shore located southwest of Minne-Monesse, on the south bank of the river?
Do you have any articles or other sources that discuss South Shore? I have searched around a good bit, and the first mentions I can find of the course are from the 1960's. While Minne-Monesse appears in the Annual Guides from the late 1920's, there is no mention of South Shore.
Is it possible South Shore was known as Garden of Eden GC, or was that a completely different course located near Momence. Garden of Eden appears in the 1931 Annual Guide with a date of organization of 1927 and 9 holes.
I've also looked on historic aerials, and in the earliest aerial for the area from 1952 it appears that there was a golf course on the South Shore site. By the looks of later aerials it looks like the course was extended to 18 holes after that 1952 date.
Glad that you agree that the inclusion of "Momence Links" is a mistake.
Sven
Sven,
Yes, Momence is south of Minne Monesse, not north. I manage to mix Momence and Manteno (north of Minne) in my mind all too often. They all look alike rolling down I-57.
I have South Shore opening no later than 1928, but it's listed as 1927 in the Chicago World's Fair Golf Guide (1933) and a Watson diagram of the par-3 seventh hole is on page 77 of Golf Architecture in America (1927). The course is identified simply as "Momence, Ill." I have not found contemporary newspaper coverage of the opening.
Garden of Eden G&CC was a completely different course east of Momence.
Tim
PS, wearing my copy editor's hat, to others – There's no space between a word and a question mark.
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Tim:
I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites. No luck so far.
Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted?
Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable. The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.
Sven
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Tim:
I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites. No luck so far.
Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted?
Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable. The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.
Sven
I've got a copy of that World's Fair Guide buried here somewhere and will make a PDF when (if?) I find it. A list of courses similar to the American Golf Guide, maybe cribbed from it.
It seems Kankakee County, at least along the river, was something of a resort capital for a time. Roads were being built, some people had money to get away from the big city, and did. Garden of Eden was described as a resort. Hieland (Kankakee Elks) was a destination course, albeit without a hotel. And Minne Monesse, one of my favorites, was this nine-hole (now 18) gem in a converted cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. Only recently did I come across the Watson connection.
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An addition to the list that I have not seen cited anywhere else.
Benbow Valley Golf Course f/k/a Benbow Golf and Country Club, Garberville, CA 1924
July 19, 1924 Press-Democrat
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Benbow_-_Press_Democrat_July_19,_1924.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/241763ff-fd4c-4aa3-9d6b-0e73b32113c5)
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An addition to the list that I have not seen cited anywhere else.
Benbow Valley Golf Course f/k/a Benbow Golf and Country Club, Garberville, CA 1924
July 19, 1924 Press-Democrat
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Benbow_-_Press_Democrat_July_19,_1924.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/241763ff-fd4c-4aa3-9d6b-0e73b32113c5)
Lane of huge pine trees? I doubt that! It's not located on the Huge Pine Tree Highway. ;)
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Tim:
I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites. No luck so far.
Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted?
Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable. The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.
Sven
Sven,
My mom's family is from Kankakee and she grew up there. Momence and later Kankakee grew primarily because of the Kankakee River and the railroad. Momence had some very esteemed resorts which attracted many visitors as it was adjacent to the Kankakee River. Kankakee itself was built off the railroad crossing and became a place of culture and development in the early 1900's with a theater, Frank Lloyd Wright built a couple of homes there as well. It was a fairly affluent area south of Chicago. The very first section of I-57 connected Bradley and Kankakee back in the late 50's.
So the area, while small and out of the way perhaps did have it roots in resorts and the river, later railroads. The golf courses in the early 1900's supported that growth and demographic. Of course many now have been lost.