Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: PCCraig on January 08, 2021, 04:06:23 PM
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I played Mid Pines in Southern Pines, NC last week and cannot stop thinking about it.
As I was driving the last couple of days after a couple weeks in Pinehurst, I've thought through the course many times and I am having a hard time finding shortcomings and it excels where other courses in the area can fall short.
Mid Pines has just a stunning set of original Donald Ross shaped greens. Surely #2 has a famous set of greens but they can't be considered Ross'? And can they be considered a great *set* if they lack diversity from green to green? The greens have proven difficult for the world's best to judge but at modern green speeds are they unplayable for the local golfer? MP's greens range from the subtle 12th to the wild 8th (!!) and 16th (!!!) greens.
Or does it fall short of expectations due to it's lack of length (although at 6,800 is it really short anymore?) or is it the lack of a Championship pedigree?
The routing is tight and tackles both a low portion of the property all the way up to the high ridge by the road. A beautiful and stunning site over rolling property.
Kyle Franz's restored bunkering and playing corridors infuse each hole with copious strategic interest all while remaining FUN, FUN, FUN! I could play Mid Pines every day and be perfectly content.
So, how is Mid Pines not everyone's favorite course in the Sandhills? Or perhaps it already is?
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I played Mid Pines in Southern Pines, NC last week and cannot stop thinking about it.
As I was driving the last couple of days after a couple weeks in Pinehurst, I've thought through the course many times and I am having a hard time finding shortcomings and it excels where other courses in the area can fall short.
Mid Pines has just a stunning set of original Donald Ross shaped greens. Surely #2 has a famous set of greens but they can't be considered Ross'? And can they be considered a great *set* if they lack diversity from green to green? The greens have proven difficult for the world's best to judge but at modern green speeds are they unplayable for the local golfer? MP's greens range from the subtle 12th to the wild 8th (!!) and 16th (!!!) greens.
Or does it fall short of expectations due to it's lack of length (although at 6,800 is it really short anymore?) or is it the lack of a Championship pedigree?
The routing is tight and tackles both a low portion of the property all the way up to the high ridge by the road. A beautiful and stunning site over rolling property.
Kyle Franz's restored bunkering and playing corridors infuse each hole with copious strategic interest all while remaining FUN, FUN, FUN! I could play Mid Pines every day and be perfectly content.
So, how is Mid Pines not everyone's favorite course in the Sandhills? Or perhaps it already is?
Mid Pines is definitely my favorite course in the area, however, I do think #2 is still the better course. If I was to make a trip out there again, those are the two courses I would be playing for sure.
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8) First trip? How many times did you play it? Its a tough crowd of competitors in the Sandhills... how many Ross's did you play?
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If your criteria is to choose one to play every single day, it might win out.
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
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8) First trip? How many times did you play it? Its a tough crowd of competitors in the Sandhills... how many Ross's did you play?
Steve -
I’ve been visiting for 20+ years now.
I’ve played MP’s probably 4x, first time playing since Franz’s work was completed.
On this last trip I saw the following Ross:
Mid Pines
Pine Needles
#2
#3
#1
Southern Pines (cart ride to see the recent work)
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
I’d be happy to hit the middle of each green at Pine Valley. Does that mean Pine Valley lacks strategy?
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Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
Actually no. It is the best strategy at most courses to aim at the middle of every green and putt from there. That's what pros do most of the time, until they find a hole location that fits their eye to attack. So then . . . ?
At #2, by contrast, it is the safest strategy to aim for the very front of every green to avoid having to chip and pitch onto the dome from either side -- just like Ian Andrew's dad taught him. It won't win you first place, but you won't embarrass yourself and you'll probably do better than a lot of the guys playing for the middle. It rewards the guy who keeps it straight, even if he's a short hitter, over the guy who misses wide. Ballybunion is another course that does the same.
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
I’d be happy to hit the middle of each green at Pine Valley. Does that mean Pine Valley lacks strategy?
I would suppose it would depend on your handicap.
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Pat,
I thought Mid Pines was fabulous, and it certainly has some more inspiring terrain than #2. Definitely a course I could play everyday and not get bored. Looking forward to getting back to see the work at Pine Needles (which I walked but didn't play).
Tyler
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
Tom - a question:
from your perspective (ie as a practicing architect, not as a golfer or rating panelist or fan of wonderful golf courses), what did Kyle do to pull Mid-Pines into the conversation? What did he change and/or create and/or restore that made it so much better a golf course than it was before? What needs to happen -- design-architecturally speaking -- for a golf course to go from a 'zero' (with no one calling it the best in the region) to a 'ten' (with no one now embarrassed to call it the best in the region)? That's a mighty big change, in both reality and perception. How did Kyle accomplish that?
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Put #2 into a separate category for just a moment; we'll come back to it.
I think that you would get a close vote between Mid Pines and Pine Needles among golfers that play both more or less regularly. I think it's fair to say that those two stand apart from the rest in the area, at least by a bit. And it may very well be that the folks that list Pine Needles as #1 have Mid Pines as #2 in the area, and vice versa. They are both that good, with no clear favorite.
#2 is a bit of a different animal, I think. I think most golfers, almost of any skill level, would agree that they could play Mid Pines or Pine Needles every day and never get tired of either one; I'm not sure that would be true of #2 because of the degree of difficulty. Others may disagree with that, of course.
The two wild cards in the area right now, at least for me, are #4 and Southern Pines. I have not played #4 since it was redone, and while everyone I know that has raves about it, I'll need to play it before I decide about the "every day" test. The old version certainly wasn't, but getting rid of 100+ bunkers dopey bunkers could certainly change that. As for Southern Pines, I think we have to wait to see what is done to it. I can easily imagine it becoming the equal, more or less, of Mid Pines and Pine Needles, at least someday; the routing is that good. But it has a LONG way to go in terms of conditioning, of course, and I worry about the possible conversion of those greens to Bermuda. I have a lot of faith in that ownership, but only time will tell.
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Before Kyle's work to Mid Pines, there were zero people on earth who had it rated higher than Pinehurst #2. It would be pretty hard to go from there, to being the unanimous best course in the area, in the space of a few short years, even if it were true. Which it's probably not, but at least you can try to make a case for it now.
Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
I’d be happy to hit the middle of each green at Pine Valley. Does that mean Pine Valley lacks strategy?
I would suppose it would depend on your handicap.
I remember following Bob Lewis on the final day of the 1985 Walker Cup at Pine Valley. My recollection is that he aimed for and hit the center of many greens. That was the strategy for the competitive course record holder. If I recall correctly he was a +4.
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Put #2 into a separate category for just a moment; we'll come back to it.
I think that you would get a close vote between Mid Pines and Pine Needles among golfers that play both more or less regularly. I think it's fair to say that those two stand apart from the rest in the area, at least by a bit. And it may very well be that the folks that list Pine Needles as #1 have Mid Pines as #2 in the area, and vice versa. They are both that good, with no clear favorite.
#2 is a bit of a different animal, I think. I think most golfers, almost of any skill level, would agree that they could play Mid Pines or Pine Needles every day and never get tired of either one; I'm not sure that would be true of #2 because of the degree of difficulty. Others may disagree with that, of course.
The two wild cards in the area right now, at least for me, are #4 and Southern Pines. I have not played #4 since it was redone, and while everyone I know that has raves about it, I'll need to play it before I decide about the "every day" test. The old version certainly wasn't, but getting rid of 100+ bunkers dopey bunkers could certainly change that. As for Southern Pines, I think we have to wait to see what is done to it. I can easily imagine it becoming the equal, more or less, of Mid Pines and Pine Needles, at least someday; the routing is that good. But it has a LONG way to go in terms of conditioning, of course, and I worry about the possible conversion of those greens to Bermuda. I have a lot of faith in that ownership, but only time will tell.
AG-I think Kyle will come through again and Southern Pines will be in the same conversation. I would be happy to split Mid Pines and Pine Needles 5-5 given ten plays.
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It is an extremely lovable course due to the intimacy of the routing and the way that it rewards shaping the ball.
It is by far my favorite course in the US to play with hickory clubs. There is a hickory tournament there every fall (usually late Oct/ early Nov) and I would encourage anyone here to try it out next year. If you don't have clubs, someone will lend you a set. There are groups of players who play Pine Needles, Pinehurst, Tobacco Road before or after as well.
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Put #2 into a separate category for just a moment; we'll come back to it.
I think that you would get a close vote between Mid Pines and Pine Needles among golfers that play both more or less regularly. I think it's fair to say that those two stand apart from the rest in the area, at least by a bit. And it may very well be that the folks that list Pine Needles as #1 have Mid Pines as #2 in the area, and vice versa. They are both that good, with no clear favorite.
#2 is a bit of a different animal, I think. I think most golfers, almost of any skill level, would agree that they could play Mid Pines or Pine Needles every day and never get tired of either one; I'm not sure that would be true of #2 because of the degree of difficulty. Others may disagree with that, of course.
The two wild cards in the area right now, at least for me, are #4 and Southern Pines. I have not played #4 since it was redone, and while everyone I know that has raves about it, I'll need to play it before I decide about the "every day" test. The old version certainly wasn't, but getting rid of 100+ bunkers dopey bunkers could certainly change that. As for Southern Pines, I think we have to wait to see what is done to it. I can easily imagine it becoming the equal, more or less, of Mid Pines and Pine Needles, at least someday; the routing is that good. But it has a LONG way to go in terms of conditioning, of course, and I worry about the possible conversion of those greens to Bermuda. I have a lot of faith in that ownership, but only time will tell.
#4 is excellent, but it's not as good as Mid Pines.
As for #2 -- I've never played #2, so I can't opine on it. My father has played it several times, however, both before and after the C&C work. While he agrees that it's a great golf course, he says it's just too hard to really enjoy. He would much rather play Mid Pines or Pine Needles than #2 even if the price was the same. For context, he's roughly a 9 handicap now (in his 70s), but he used to be a 4/5.
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Played #2 once and will play again. It is in a different category
Multiple plays at MP & PN.
MP gets the nod for me. Multiple holes that a scratch could bogey and 14 handicapper could birdie. Compact routing a big plus.
PN 10 & 15 IMO are weak holes.
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I don't believe that MidPines was ever a zero. This is an odd day, where I disagree with Peter twice!
I played it after a snow, and loved every shot on every hole. I haven't seen it since KF did his work, but I would play it all the time if I could.
Southern Pines is so deceptive. It promises you, at like 6000 yards, that you will eat it up, then it eats you up. Southern Pines does more with water than any course I've played. It comes into theoretical play, but you never really fear it, nor hit into it.
Give me Tobacco Road, MPines and SPines, and I'll eat for a lifetime.
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I rated PN and MP in match play as tied. And I think with some work SP could easily tie them as well.
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How do you establish Best? Architecture or Fun. Having played Mid Pines at least 1500 times, I surely believe it is the most fun. I can't count the # of times walking off 18 that I have run into friends and gone right back for another 18 hole walk. The strategy around the greens at #2 is first rate and surely a sterner test of golf. Mid Pines is no slouch and the stretch from 12 to 18 is as good as it gets.
Mid Pines has the bones of the championship course it was designed to be and was in the shadows when other courses were having their greens revamped, Pine Needles on the other hand was meant to be a resort course and unfortunately had the original Ross greens "updated" and lacks the strategic interest of MP.
Southern Pines has the best land for golf in the area and with committed $s for green restoration, bunkering, tree clearing and Kyle Franz's hand I look forward to seeing another absolute Sandhills gem.
I expect that I will likely rate them MP, SP then PN. and If PN is your #3 course you have a world class resort. I hope the infrastructure will be raised up to a similar level.
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I've only played Pinehurst #2 twice in different eras and I can't say I found it that fun or inspiring.
I found many of the approaches repetitive and the terrain less than exciting.
Watching the various majors there I've felt the same, but we all know how deceptive golf on TV can be.
I always thought that was because I was missing something based on its high ranking by Tom Doak in the CG and by many with high golf architecture IQ's that I respect.
I do find Tom's comments on this thread a little surprising(mainly out of a poor memory of individual holes at #2). I enjoy a unique hole or stretch of holes where the best scoring strategy is unconventional, but it would seem to me, an entire round strategy of aiming/missing short to mitigate difficult pin high pitches would be boring and repetitive indeed(even if the smartest), virtually eliminating any chance at a bold, satisfying approach or potential birdie.Several or even multiple holes, sure,is good variety... but an entire round? not so much.
But, if and when I return, I will certainly consider/embrace that strategy, though it doesn't make me MORE likely to return there quickly.
Sounds like I'd prefer the new Mid-Pines. (I enjoyed the old version but have only played it once)
But I'm not playing courses to rate or rank them.(and also points out that for most to properly rate or rank courses, they need to play them more than once)
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Well, I gave MP and PN one star and would there is little to choose between them. For mine, #2 is in a superior league not only because of interest around the greens, but also off the tee.
Isn't Dormie a Sand Hills course? I don't think it is far behind MP and PN. Maybe if the walk from tee to fairways was (is?) sorted I may think better of the course. That said, I think the course would be better off if simplified a bit. Perhaps C&C tried to do a bit too much.
Happy Hockey
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Well, I gave MP and PN one star and would there is little to choose between them. For mine, #2 is in a superior league not only because of interest around the greens, but also off the tee.
Isn't Dormie a Sand Hills course? I don't think it is far behind MP and PN. Maybe if the walk from tee to fairways was (is?) sorted I may think better of the course. That said, I do not want think the course would be better off if simplified a bit. Perhaps C&C tried to do a bit too much.
Happy Hockey
Sean-Dormie has added some walkways/bridges to enhance the trek which I’m eager to see. With the exception of the par 5 10th hole which needs to be softened imo it’s a heck of a golf course and doesn’t get it’s due. Their position on the GolfWeek Top 200 Modern list at 141 is tough to reconcile given many of the courses that precede it.
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Tim
Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though 8) ). Otherwise, I am not interested. That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway. As I last saw the courses, my favourites in order
Pine Needles 1*
#2 3*
Tobacco Rd - see it at least once
Mid Pines 1*
Dormie r - good trip add on
Southern Pines - wouldn't skip at game at one of the above to play
Happy Hockey
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Tim
Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though 8) ). Otherwise, I am not interested. That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.
Happy Hockey
Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.
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Tim
Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though 8) ). Otherwise, I am not interested. That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.
Happy Hockey
Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.
Hopefully you are right. But I wouldn't contemplate trying to access a course as a potential member when I know this clearly isn't the case for me. And..I am not suggesting that is what you are suggesting 8)
Happy Hockey
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I have played MP and PN around 10 times each, PH2 twice, and PH4 and 8 once each. MP and PN are among my very favorite courses. I listed them as the first ones I could play every day as well as answering Zac Blair’s question about great golf experiences. Like several previous posters, I enjoy the two course about equally.
However, when it comes to “Best” v “Favorite”, I use a heuristic to define Best: how both mentally exhilarated and exhausted am I at the end of a round. Exhilaration captures overall enjoyment (fun, beauty, pacing, and the like); exhaustion captures overall quality (layout, overall quality of the holes, strategic imperatives, and challenges presented). For me, the “Best” courses balance the two.
By my measure, PH2 is one of the Best courses that I have ever played. In the Sandhills, MP would be next because as Jay notes, it does provide more of what I call the mental exhaustion factor than PN. PH4 did not score particularly high on either part of my scale.
I do look forward to trying SP, Dormie, and TR at some point.
Ira
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Tim
Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though 8) ). Otherwise, I am not interested. That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.
Happy Hockey
Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.
Hopefully you are right. But I wouldn't contemplate trying to access a course as a potential member when I know this clearly isn't the case for me. And..I am not suggesting that is what you are suggesting 8)
Happy Hockey
That’s quite a leap. I think I’ll bow out. ::)
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Could a resident member actually play MP/PN (almost) every day if he was so inclined, or would the tee sheet be jammed? And if not, what would be the better "every day" courses that one could actually play every day?
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I thought MP was the best course (for me; overall?) before the renovation and do so now, too. It’s the only course in the area, aside from T-Road, that I’d want to run back out for another round, mostly due to the varying shots I see that can be played - maybe Dormie has some too.
#2 and now #4 are great but in my mind one dimensional, and of course hard: #4 has a higher slope from the 6500 tees than #2. Sure if you miss the green where the grass is you have a few options, but invariably the other side has a hard-pan bunker, good luck 15HC.
#2 lacks any elevation change aside from two holes vs all the others mentioned, guess the elevated greens make up for it but meh.
MP is a bit too narrow relative to the others mentioned above for my liking. Look forward to seeing renovated SP.
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Could a resident member actually play MP/PN (almost) every day if he was so inclined, or would the tee sheet be jammed? And if not, what would be the better "every day" courses that one could actually play every day?
I can play almost every day with just 2 courses, now with the addition of Southern Pines there is a third option. Within a week I can usually get a tee time but with large groups and tournaments I have been shut out. Access has been more and more limited as popularity has grown.
I live 2 miles from the course and my favorite time to play is late in the day so I go out in the waning hours after tee times.
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As for #2 -- I've never played #2, so I can't opine on it. My father has played it several times, however, both before and after the C&C work. While he agrees that it's a great golf course, he says it's just too hard to really enjoy. He would much rather play Mid Pines or Pine Needles than #2 even if the price was the same. For context, he's roughly a 9 handicap now (in his 70s), but he used to be a 4/5.
What struck me last week is how all the different PCC members I talked to say they hardly ever play #2. I think one said he hadn't played it in 7 years.
On the flip side, it appears that almost everyone enjoys playing the golf course at Mid Pines. From listening to interviews with Kyle Franz there was a time that Mid Pines was considered one of the best courses in the country. What changed? Certainly the design and its greens remain. The set of greens in particular are amazingly interesting and fun.
But then why does everyone assume that #2 is the de facto "best" golf course in the area? Is it its championship pedigree? Is its challenge the primary appeal?
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Tom Doak -
It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.
If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?
Actually no. It is the best strategy at most courses to aim at the middle of every green and putt from there. That's what pros do most of the time, until they find a hole location that fits their eye to attack. So then . . . ?
At #2, by contrast, it is the safest strategy to aim for the very front of every green to avoid having to chip and pitch onto the dome from either side -- just like Ian Andrew's dad taught him. It won't win you first place, but you won't embarrass yourself and you'll probably do better than a lot of the guys playing for the middle. It rewards the guy who keeps it straight, even if he's a short hitter, over the guy who misses wide. Ballybunion is another course that does the same.
Tom,
I played Pinehurst #2 several times many years ago. While I don’t recall employing the strategy you describe on every hole, I did very quickly decide that was the way to play the 5th hole. If I had a yardage between clubs I always went with the shorter club and found being right in front a good play. It was kind of a lay up, but effective in avoiding a big score. A bogey wasn’t bad on that hole if I couldn’t get up and down from just off the front.
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#2 by virtue of its pedigree as a hickory course has always been available for the ground game and therefore good interest to all levels of golfer. The greens, length, bunkering, waste areas, angles etc make it a course for the very top golfers. Few courses can make golf so good for so many with such facility. As a 15 handicap # 2 plays as a reasonable bogey course. For lower handicaps par becomes the challenge. From the tips the + handicappers birdies are hard to find.
I throughly enjoy and appreciate the greatness of #2 after many plays but have never walked off wanting to go back to the first tee.
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What struck me last week is how all the different PCC members I talked to say they hardly ever play #2. I think one said he hadn't played it in 7 years.
PCCraig,
There are in the neighborhood of 1,500 members at Pinehurst CC. It is possible you did not talk to any of the great majority that play #2 whenever they can. Whatever tee times that are not taken by resort guests are filled by members every day, weather permitting. The more I play #2, the more I want to play it again the next day. #2 is a very challenging golf course. The green complexes are difficult and will punish the mediocre approach. Some will find #2 too difficult to play on a regular basis and will play at the many other options at the club. Others don't play #2 because there are no carts allowed on the fairways. Some find it too difficult to get times on #2 and don't want the hassle and will opt to play the other options at the club. However, most members joined in part so they can play #2 on a regular basis. I find it very hard to believe that the typical member "hardly ever plays" #2.
As for Mid Pines, I love playing there. I've played it several times and like playing it very much. There are quite a few very good holes and the lay of the land adds to the interest. I would never say Mid Pines is not good...it's just not as good as Pinehurst #2.
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I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down. The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt.
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I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down. The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt.
All of the best fairways in the Sandhills don’t overseed. Healthy dormant Bermuda is a fantastic surface. Even after almost 5 inches of rain last week MP was still watering the next day. Luckily it is the Sandhills or “soft and soggy” can dry enough to be reasonably playable if not ideal. PN is dormant Bermuda and after heavy rains I will venture across the street.
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I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down. The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt.
All of the best fairways in the Sandhills don’t overseed. Healthy dormant Bermuda is a fantastic surface. Even after almost 5 inches of rain last week MP was still watering the next day. Luckily it is the Sandhills or “soft and soggy” can dry enough to be reasonably playable if not ideal. PN is dormant Bermuda and after heavy rains I will venture across the street.
Jay,
I came down to Pine Needles from Chapel Hill on Thursday; it always catches me by surprise when I get to the Sandhills at how dry things are. Balls were bouncing and rolling, carts were on the fairways, and the lies were great; no mud on the ball. I walked with my push cart, and it was wonderful not to be slogging thru the mud.
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Because it isn’t the best?
Why not just bump BCowan’s thread from years ago saying the same thing. The one in which I’m pretty sure he gave it a 9.
Nevertheless, as his claim did years ago, this one does the same; it says more about the depth and the acumen of the one making the claim than it does about whether Mid Pines could ever be considered the best course in the Sandhills.
Charming? Yes. Fun to play? Yes
Top 5 in the area? Not a chance. A definitely can’t hold a candle to a top 10 course in the US.
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Because it isn’t the best?
Why not just bump BCowan’s thread from years ago saying the same thing. The one in which I’m pretty sure he gave it a 9.
Nevertheless, as his claim did years ago, this one does the same; it says more about the depth and the acumen of the one making the claim than it does about whether Mid Pines could ever be considered the best course in the Sandhills.
Charming? Yes. Fun to play? Yes
Top 5 in the area? Not a chance. A definitely can’t hold a candle to a top 10 course in the US.
Jason-I am interested in your take and wonder what five courses you have at the top? My guess is that three of the five from your perspective would include # 2, Dormie and Southern Pines. Thanks.
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TMart,
In no particular order this morning save for #2 being clear #1:
#2
#4
Dormie
Pine Needles
Tobacco Road
Southern Pines and #8 would be above it as well. I’ve yet to play CCofNC Dogwood but all reports are it is wonderful.
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TMart,
In no particular order this morning save for #2 being clear #1:
#2
#4
Dormie
Pine Needles
Tobacco Road
Southern Pines and #8 would be above it as well. I’ve yet to play CCofNC Dogwood but all reports are it is wonderful.
#4? Really?
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The putting surfaces on #4 have been overlooked here. They are at least the equal of any in the area, perhaps better than Dormie Club's which I've always admired. What makes the course less than great is the man-made lake stuck right in the middle of the property which destroyed some of the best ground contours that Ross used for both early versions of #2 and #4.
As Jay and others have pointed out, the major problem that confronts MP is the soggy condition of so many fairways. The overseeding seems pointless given the great conditions at the other courses that don't use it. I'm looking forward to see what May/June brings when the course has firmed up, hopefully.
Southern Pines has conditioning shortcomings as everyone who's played there realizes. That can be solved but another issue is the greens, about half of which could be Ross originals and the other half coming from a rebuild in the 1980s. I don't see how SP could ever be considered one of the top-tier courses in the area unless they are replaced.
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Tobacco Road
I don’t understand the Tobacco Road love. It’s a good course. Very good. Not great.
Mid Pines is better than #4 and definitely better than TR, IMO.
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Tobacco Road
I don’t understand the Tobacco Road love. It’s a good course. Very good. Not great.
It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.
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It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.
Nothing about my opinion on TR is “strong” and I’m not “polar” at all. I don’t hate the course. I don’t love the course. I think it’s “quite good” (between good and very good?), and I also think most people seem to over-rate it.
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It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.
Nothing about my opinion on TR is “strong” and I’m not “polar” at all. I don’t hate the course. I don’t love the course. I think it’s “quite good” (between good and very good?), and I also think most people seem to over-rate it.
Fore ;)
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because it isn't, LOL
all these courses through the pines is somewhat redundant to someone on the west coast
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I have not played enough in the Sandhills area to weigh in on "the best" conversations, but I loved my round during Thanksgiving week:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqcBBrrW4AI0UDI?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Someday I will go back with my son and play #2, but at $85 and limited time, Mid Pines was certainly a great value. I also love the quieter vibe over at Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It reminded me of Mountain Lake back when we had a bunch of GCA guys there. Now that they have acquired Southern Pines, that is a great trio.
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TMart,
In no particular order this morning save for #2 being clear #1:
#2
#4
Dormie
Pine Needles
Tobacco Road
Southern Pines and #8 would be above it as well. I’ve yet to play CCofNC Dogwood but all reports are it is wonderful.
I haven't played #2 or Tobacco Road, but I've played the other 3 and couldn't disagree more. Mid Pines is a better course than #4, Dormie Club, or Pine Needles. Not that those three aren't very good courses in their own right, but I'd rank them Mid Pines, Dormie Club, #4, Pine Needles.
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Tobacco Road
I don’t understand the Tobacco Road love. It’s a good course. Very good. Not great.
Mid Pines is better than #4 and definitely better than TR, IMO.
I didn't say it was great. Remember 7 months ago when everyone was yelling at me on this site for questioning the idea that Tobacco Road was great.
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For the most part I admire The Road and marvel at the architectural risk taking, but I wouldn't say its a great course. If I had to pick one feature which gives me pause it's the several narrow greens.
Happy Hockey
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I didn't say it was great. Remember 7 months ago when everyone was yelling at me on this site for questioning the idea that Tobacco Road was great.
You listed it above Mid Pines, thus IMO “over-rating” it and giving it “love” (per my reply).
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I have friends who are members at CCNC and I have had the chance to play Dogwood and Cardinal quite a few times and they are certainly right up there with the best in the Sandhills. Ranking all of them is certainly very difficult but that makes it so special to play golf in that area. It reminds me somewhat of Sand Valley in Wisconsin where you surprisingly also have that wonderful sandy surface which makes the game so enjoyable.
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What struck me last week is how all the different PCC members I talked to say they hardly ever play #2. I think one said he hadn't played it in 7 years.
PCCraig,
There are in the neighborhood of 1,500 members at Pinehurst CC. It is possible you did not talk to any of the great majority that play #2 whenever they can. Whatever tee times that are not taken by resort guests are filled by members every day, weather permitting. The more I play #2, the more I want to play it again the next day. #2 is a very challenging golf course. The green complexes are difficult and will punish the mediocre approach. Some will find #2 too difficult to play on a regular basis and will play at the many other options at the club. Others don't play #2 because there are no carts allowed on the fairways. Some find it too difficult to get times on #2 and don't want the hassle and will opt to play the other options at the club. However, most members joined in part so they can play #2 on a regular basis. I find it very hard to believe that the typical member "hardly ever plays" #2.
As for Mid Pines, I love playing there. I've played it several times and like playing it very much. There are quite a few very good holes and the lay of the land adds to the interest. I would never say Mid Pines is not good...it's just not as good as Pinehurst #2.
What does playing #2 on a regular basis or "whenever they can" translate to in terms of number of rounds a member might play per week or month in spring or fall (in normal pre-Covid times)? With 1500 members and resort guests.
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My top 5 in the area
1. No. 2
2. No. 4
3. Pine Needles
4. Southern Pines
T5. Mid Pines, Dormie
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Top five rounds that I will bring friends, in order:#2MidPinesSouthern PinesTobacco RoadMP/SP for a replay.No disrespect to the others.Spent the last wintry/soggy week in Pinehurst. Loved every minute.#1 and #9 are great places to play. Did not like #6 at first blush.
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1. #2 a strategic masterpiece
2. Mid Pines the most replayable fun course in the area, one of golf’s best walks.
2. Dormie the best variety of greens with some truly great holes.
4. Southern Pines perhaps premature but with the best land and Kyle Franz’s work.
5. Tobacco Road bold, creative, fun Strantz’s gem.
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I have spent some sporadic time in the area for quit a long time but never got to see Mid Pines until this year. It was always packed and given the other choices I always had another option. When this years trip came I was very excited to see it. Caught it on a chamber of commerce weather day w/ perfect conditions in late October. Walked off the course and for some reason was disappointed and I'm not sure I can articulate why. Perhaps the best reason I can come up with is it doesn't stand out amongst it's brethren in the area?
#2 is one of my all time favorite courses. Love the strategy, love the vibe love the green sites. There is not a bad thing I can say about it. I enjoyed #4 also. It's memorable, the strategic elements abound. Loved the par 5's there. Dormie, IMHO, is just a smidge below. I LOVE the seclusion, the flow of the routing, the green sites. I love how #8 sits near but not on the water, how the green is draped over the ground w/ no bunkers. I love the tee shot on #5 and the rumpled green. Every time I play it, I get done and I'm think when can I get back here.
In the most recent trip finally played Southern Pines and enjoyed the rough look, the muni feal w/ a bit of no-frills added. The golf was solid and it highly exceed my expectations. The group also ventured to Tobacco Road for a 36 hole day. To each, they heard the stories about how it could be difficult (and we played it for a while in 30+MPH winds as the remnants of a hurricane passed through) but everyone LOVED it. Perhaps it's the scale? The acres of exposed sand? The crazy greens? It sure is unique!
So in the end I think I need to see Mid Pines again and see how it flows and compares. However, when in that area not sure I'd ever see it more than a notch below the others.
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Because Pine Needles is better?
Easily the best Ross routing I've played.
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Because Pine Needles is better?
Easily the best Ross routing I've played.
If anything, the fact that Pinehurst has 5 or 6 other excellent courses vying for second place in the area behind #2 just shows that it's still one of the 3 or 4 best places in the country for public golf. Bandon is probably the only place in the country where you can go and play a collection of better courses.
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1. #2 a strategic masterpiece
2. Mid Pines the most replayable fun course in the area, one of golf’s best walks.
2. Dormie the best variety of greens with some truly great holes.
4. Southern Pines perhaps premature but with the best land and Kyle Franz’s work.
5. Tobacco Road bold, creative, fun Strantz’s gem.
This is almost exactly how I would list them, possibly with Pine Needles worked in ahead of Tobacco Road (although I do love TR).