Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Zac Blair on December 30, 2020, 04:20:23 PM
-
Would love to get some opinions on what are the key aspects to providing a great golf experience?
Obviously the golf itself has to be great ... but there are some many other things in play that can elevate your experience while visiting somewhere.
-
Being able to stay on the grounds of a great golf course is special. There is nothing quite like waking up with a full day of golf ahead of you literally just outside your door.
-
The experience and facilities need to fit with the location. The Lodge at Sea Island is wonderful at Sea Island (really St Simons Island) but would be a monstrosity on the Irish or Scottish Coast. Whereas Ballybunion and Lahinch are great experiences with their modest clubhouses and service models in County Clare and Kerry but not so much at Sea Island. Ballyneal is an incredible fit with the look and feel of eastern Colorado. Chechessee Creek works perfectly in the laid-back South Carolina Low Country.
-
How welcoming the club is; am I made to feel more like a member than a guest; do I have to be extraordinarily careful on how I act; is the overall atmosphere, outside the men's grill, rather quiet, unhurried, laid-back. Is it apparent that the course has been thoughtfully setup for the day's play and maintained to highlight its architecture. Is the pace of play within a desirable range, for me, on a challenging, but not too difficult course in good weather, 3:30-4:15 depending on the time of day, amount of play and type of competition. A friendly club culture heavy on tradition, courtesy, etiquette, and improvement.
-
I think the vibe is important, plus any cool, memorable things the club does that sets it apart from other experiences
-
Zac - welcome back!
I'd say:
- no houses on the course
- walkable
- a good bar/pub type atmosphere, no frills but comfortable and reasonably priced food and drinks
- if private, a no a-hole as members policy
- a good caddie master
- a good bartender
- a great cheeseburger
-
Well lets see, does it have:
Valet car park with bag drop?
GPS cart with loaded cooler?
Well furnished halfway snack-shack?
;D
Given, I've played the vast majority of my golf on public access courses, I'll focus on that part of it because while having a nearly empty course, a nice members lounge/locker room, and a private bar, are certainly nice, you just ain't getting that on the public side with a few exceptions.
A few things I think that count:
- Fairly secluded/private location, with little housing to muck up the view and ambiance.
- Modest clubhouse that isn't jammed with merchandise in every corner.
- Friendly but small staff that are genuinely helpful when needed.
- Variety of tee placements from hole to hole so all the par 4s aren't 360-400 over and over.
- Facilities that are kept clean and tidy.
- An interesting small patio spot or two, preferably with a decent post round view.
- In a hot weather location like Utah, either plenty of water available, and/or a fairly frequent beverage cart.
-
2 x 18-holes at Muirfield/HCEG with lunch between rounds sitting amongst the members at their 'long tables'.
atb
-
Secession really hit it on all cylinders for me on my first visit last year.
We stayed upstairs in the clubhouse which has small bedrooms and a shared locker room type bath, closer to YMCA than Ritz. Plus there are other houses on site for those with more demanding expectations.
Entire main level was set up for congregating and groups mixed way more than at most places I’ve been.
The refrigerator next to 16 tee on the honor system is a nice touch.
Place runs like a clock with no evident stress and tons of freedom late in the day for extra holes of golf or drinks or both.
Wagons to take you to town and the fact that they don’t serve dinner is a nice touch as there are great options in town.
The bond between the staff and members is evident and genuine.
I was there before Mike Harmon retired so it was fun to spend sometime with him, Mike has a beyond Mensa Level Golf IQ. Mike really was key in establishing Secession and its culture.
-
Fast pace of play
-
I really like hitting putts and/or eating lunch while watching people tee off and/or play up 18 (and/or 9, but preferably 18).
-
Interesting golf with variety and subtle nuances while exploring an interesting, textured property with an intimate routing.
Comfortable rustic lodging with opportunities for congregation.
Friendly staff who don't hover but make themselves available.
Well organized and managed yet very relaxed and flexible operation.
A great Fish House for sunset drinks, fishing,bar games ;)
-
Glass splatter guards across the bottoms of the urinals. Ice optional. I’ve got a pic somewhere. Sandwich perhaps?
I am also a sucker for Barbisol comb jars and Clubman Pinaud powder. Seriously.
I really like the lawn set-up between the final green and clubhouse at Chechessee Creek.
Bogey
-
Mid Pines and Pine Needles is the model in the US for public accessible. Good people, good food and drink, and great soul. Money pretty much an afterthought.
[size=78%]Ira [/size]
-
I second a warm and inviting atmosphere where people feel welcome vs. a place that has you walking on egg shells. I also second a walkable routing. I think having the pro shop, putting green, first tee and perhaps the restaurant/bar/patio area all within steps of one another creates an environment of connectedness and community. Who doesn't love a firepit?
-
Experiences are equally form and function, and for me creating great 'spaces' on and around a course that are properly programmed (enter function and well versed, like minded operators) - whether it be a junction of holes, the relationship between the 18th green, 1st tee, putting green, the arrival, or the lodging. Proximity in the properly orchestrated environment will create energy that is memorable.
Interestingly, sometimes the uniquity of some the best experiences are born out of challenges posed by physical restraints whether it be a carriage ride back to the clubhouse after a remote 18th green, Or hitting your 1st tee ball with your rear end very near someone's turtle soup.
For me it begins at whatever point you can control - for some, that may be the parking lot, for some it may be your entry gate, for few others that may be the tarmac. There is also something really romantic about railroad tracks.
That being said, Yeamans Hall is about as experiential (and for me, spiritual) of a place there is in the game.
The entry drive through Davant Plantation's ancients oaks in route to Congaree is special.
The winding mile long drive to Doonbeg which includes crossing a moat that dug in order to build a bridge to go over is, unique. Coincidentally, I have often gotten the comment "Best Showers Ever" about Doonbeg which may be akin to calling a hot dog "the best meal you've ever eaten", only because it came at the end of a week long hunger strike.
Speaking of food, while its important that it be good, the atmosphere it is consumed in seems way more important to me in the golf setting, so a signature drink, soup, burger, shake, are fine and well, but turn the lights out and watch a lighting show if you want to create a memory.
The "vibe" or "feel" of a place is something that is really difficult to get right because it can't be forced, but it elevates, almost levitates, a place when it is.
-
A great locker room/grille attendant who doubles as a concierge, able to help you with restaurant reservations, car rentals, plane tickets, sports tickets, etc.
-
Zac, it’s funny, my favorite experiences run the gamut
Kingston Heath. Great course, great architecture and when I was there, the head professional and his assistant were simply so friendly, I couldn’t wait to go to the course each day
The Bridges a Rancho Santa Fe (again 10+ years ago)
Over the top place, but to me, the staff pulled it off. Welcomed by name, unreal friendly place, but for me, I loved the solitude for practicing with great golf balls and great conditions.
Goose Creek. Public course, inexpensive and you know it will be in pretty decent shape, be fun to play and play at a good pace
It’s like playing golf at Cheers, they have a friendly and comfortable culture
So I’m no help at all 🤣
-
Time.
Time for features to soften, for memories to accrue, for the buildings to age. Time enough for a long list of past club champions, and for the first club pro to have long since retired -- but still hold honorary membership for life.
I haven't played many great courses, but I have played a few courses where I felt very comfortable and at home -- and all of them had a kind of natural, well-earned aura and an honest patina that can only come with time.
-
IDEAL
Routed to be easily walked
Tees near greens, very few if any walk back tees, basically for very strong players looking for added challenge which includes a carry and or difficult angle. Never make average Joe walk back
Start and finish in front of the house
At least two starting points of different hole numbers ie 12/6 or 13/5 etc creates boozer loops
If it makes sense, public accessible paths thru course and the land perhaps used for other purposes beside golf
For privates routing allows for cutting out holes back to the house
No more than 3 sets of tees ideally in the main to take advantage of different angles or give options to avoid harsh carries
Small, but comfortable house
As little friction between the car and 1st tee as possible, few staff
Basic food made from high quality ingredients
Small selection of booze, beer and wine that can change
Breakfast and lunch only except for the odd occasion
No table service during known slow times, folks can walk to the bar to order
Good outside seating that is heated if necessary
Small locker room with a few showers
Competitions kept to a minimum to encourage friendly, fast golf
If private early times reserved for 2 ball play unless not filled
Happy Hockey
-
Agree with the less-is-more sentiments above and would add: short walk between green and the next tee.
-
Zac, considering your efforts with The Buck Club, I think the question has to be back to you.
Plenty of folks here have opinions, and that market research can be helpful as you round out your plans, but I have to believe your core feelings and intentions must be the most important.
What have been your best golf experiences?
-
;D
I think Sean hit it pretty good
but I love competition, so game on
simple but really good food
fast play much preferable
Attentive staff
cool putting green
-
As long as the golf is great these are the things that I've seen which add to the experience:
- the right mix on the consumption side. I don't need a carving station on every third tee, 15 places to get more alcohol. Simple halfway house and a cooler is all you need. We're golfing and not at a wedding reception.
- Love the the sand mix on the tee's to encourage self maintenance.
- Water pails near the start & turn to wet your towel. Shouldn't need to run to the bathroom or find a hose.
- A large painting / rendering of the course along with individual design notes of the holes. Again were here to golf.
- More outside use, food outside if at all possible. Deck / patio, somewhere to watch other matches finish.
- Staff who knows you and you know them.
- Lack of crowds. I don't need a 20 some playing alternate shot. You can do it but the solitude of a group late in the day is the best feeling.
- If you provide lodging you need to have great towels and showers but then again that's going to turn into an arms race.
Best of luck w/ the endeavor, hope you hit a grand slam!
-
Zac, considering your efforts with The Buck Club, I think the question has to be back to you.
Plenty of folks here have opinions, and that market research can be helpful as you round out your plans, but I have to believe your core feelings and intentions must be the most important.
What have been your best golf experiences?
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size][size=78%]The club will be used by people other than just me so making sure you’ve at least heard/understood some other things people find important has always been a goal. [/size]
-
Personally, it's about making you feel welcome.
Great staff who want a guest to enjoy themselves.
Great members who are proud to show off their course.
Personally I prefer a relaxed, informal environment and despite having been fortunate enough to play the majority of the most well known courses, I've found that most great clubs intrinsically are at ease with themselves (through their membership, staff and course) and this translates over very well and makes guests feel comfortable. In effect, they don't have to "try hard" because they know they've got "it". The sort of place where different groups end up sitting together in the bar after a round, the sort of place where you'll meet interesting people who love golf.
On a purely golfing front, it must be walkable (and strongly encouraged), caddies should be available, and the pace of play should be quick.
-
Some thoughts on what me and my team hoping to do at the 🌲 farm
Above all else, build a FUN golf course where people want to keep playing. And always look forward to coming back.
Quick pace of play (not forcing people to run around and not finish out, but getting people to understand the importance of proper pace of play - only 3 minutes to look for your brand new ProV1 😂).
Walkable (easy green to tee transitions, they don’t all have to be 5 yards off the back of the green - sometimes a nice walk meandering through the trees to get to the next is enjoyable).
Friendly staff where everyone feels welcome.
Areas to socialize (inside and out).
Simple but great F&B (don’t need the Cheesecake Factory menu, I actually love the Prix Fixe menu setup at OMC[size=78%]). [/size]
[/size]
Everything you need, nothing you don’t accommodations. With good beds, showers, sheets and towels.
Simple turn house with some good snacks and drinks + maybe 1 staple item special to the club (but doesn’t need to be over the top discovery land every 3-4 holes with different themed comfort stations)
Making sure the whole setup is efficient and easy for people to get from one area to another (pro shop to first tee, 18 green to the bar).
Caddies that are available, but not ALWAYS required (to me there is nothing worse than wanting to go play a quick loop and being forced to take a caddie).
Lodging in close proximity to the clubhouse, but not necessarily stacked along 1 or 18 (nothing like being able to stroll out of your room and head to the clubhouse for a quick bite before the round).
Simple locker room with great showers and a place to hang a coat or leave some shoes.
A great Bar + Grill Room where everyone can socialize and hang out. Long tables where multiple groups can eat together.
Small pro shop with quality merchandise (need to hammer the essentials and not go overboard on the random patterns and items).
Some cool club events throughout the year that the membership really takes interest in (members week, member-member, member-guest, club championship).
Like I mentioned in the beginning, the golf is priority #1 ... but the experience is also really important Bc it can elevate the place as a whole. Thanks for all the input from everyone. I’m glad to see my ideas aren’t too far off.
-
Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.
As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.
-
8) How do I sign up to be national member of the Tree Farm? I have a chain saw... :o
Also, short walk from 18th green to 1st tee, like at the Kingsley Club... hey you're the architect, make it happen!
Don't forget the multi-purpose open wall roofed pavilion for a little protection from the elements for a large group of folks or just the regulars sprawling out before or after a game. Scoreboard at front, bar at the back, and where tables can be set up in between
-
IDEAL
Routed to be easily walked
Tees near greens, very few if any walk back tees, basically for very strong players looking for added challenge which includes a carry and or difficult angle. Never make average Joe walk back
Start and finish in front of the house
At least two starting points of different hole numbers ie 12/6 or 13/5 etc creates boozer loops
If it makes sense, public accessible paths thru course and the land perhaps used for other purposes beside golf
For privates routing allows for cutting out holes back to the house
No more than 3 sets of tees ideally in the main to take advantage of different angles or give options to avoid harsh carries
Small, but comfortable house
As little friction between the car and 1st tee as possible, few staff
Basic food made from high quality ingredients
Small selection of booze, beer and wine that can change
Breakfast and lunch only except for the odd occasion
No table service during known slow times, folks can walk to the bar to order
Good outside seating that is heated if necessary
Small locker room with a few showers
Competitions kept to a minimum to encourage friendly, fast golf
If private early times reserved for 2 ball play unless not filled
Happy Hockey
That's a great list.
One of the best things about my three weeks in Australia is nearly every restaurant I dined in, we ordered at the bar.
Speeds up the process considerably and makes so much more sense.
Very common in the UK/Ireland as well.
-
Hi Zac,
My thoughts are as follows:
- Don't overcharge a guest financially while on property, especially if the club location is remote - The business model should be to extract a fair profit from a repeat guest over 3 decades, not to squeeze every penny out of 3 days. I'll never forget being charged $5.75 for a diet coke at a certain well known resort that is pretty far away from any other dining/accommodations and thinking that I'd never go back.
- A comfortable place to watch groups come up 18. Think the 18th on #2 at Pinehurst, where a sculled approach might land in someone's soup. I loved the experience both as a player and spectator.
- A menu with a couple original items. Give your chef some freedom to come up with his/her own signature app/entre/drink etc. There are countless examples of at private and public clubs around the country, but it is something I always look forward to after a round.
- As others have mentioned, pace of play is critical.
- It is tough to get this right, and I don't have fix for it, but doing something to eliminate the feeling that you are part of a golf machine. I've been to several places where you feel like you are just being shuttled through the day - breakfast bar, check-in at the shop, pound balls for 20 minutes, play golf, repeat - along with about 200 other guys. Not sure why it feels different at some places than others, but some places it feels pretty mechanical.
- If possible, make the first tee walkable from the range/practice facility.
Would love to get some opinions on what are the key aspects to providing a great golf experience?
Obviously the golf itself has to be great ... but there are some many other things in play that can elevate your experience while visiting somewhere.
-
Pacific Dunes ..... Walk from the 3rd green to the 4th tee.
First time playing Tobacco Road on the first tee (wow this is a HOOT!)
Ballyhack, overnight stay, watching the goats roaming the 18th fairway at sunrise, meeting Darius Oliver & the general club vibe w/ Wade Whitehead's crazy quiz questions & et al at the George Cup.
Hanging out with Tom Doak & Team for 3 days at the Bay of Dreams.
-
Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.
As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.
I would love your thoughts one what “within the reach” means?
-
(delete)
-
It starts with the employees. The couple of times I have been to Bel-Air, the staff went over the top to make me feel welcome. I mentioned that to the member and he said the rule is we treat our employees like family and they treat our guest the best, since guest are most important.
-
Outside of great staff, the course needs to be fun. I am sure more people would like to play another 18 after playing a fun course, compared to playing a course that just beat you up.
I think of caddies as a treat, I always like to take a caddie when possible. However, people that are members of clubs that require caddies, might not want a caddie - should not be mandatory.
Everything should be on property, no need to leave for lodging, good food, wine, drinks, cigars, outdoor seating.
Don't have too many rules, nothing worst then a member having to list everything you should or should not do.
Lodging should have options, you can stay in a dorm room upstairs for cheap or rent out 8 bedroom cottage for $$$$$ - similar to PV and Laurel Valley.
Members and Guest will want to come back if they feel like they are getting a good deal, no one wants sticker shock after a fun long weekend.
-
I think a great experience can be judged by whether every time you finish 18 you want to go back out and play again and how long would you want to spend at the location. Took a trip last year to Wisconsin and part of the trip was Sand Valley where both courses certainly meet this test and the vibe of the place was great. Another big plus was that the courses are walking only.
-
A modest (1600 sf) free-standing golf shop with two restrooms and small honesty fridge set in an alcove. Complimentary water and ice dispenser (must be crushed). Shop has 270 degrees view and covered veranda (wooden plank flooring) on three sides with tables and chairs (cushioned and comfy, none of that Adirondack crap). The rear of the shop a windowless wall that is accessible directly from the contiguous parking lot (pea gravel) through a thick screening hedge. The first tee is 10 paces out the front of the shop and extension of the practice field. The putting green is 10 paces from one side of the golf shop. Half of the putting green is available for pitching.
All in an intimate set-up that's a great place to hang. No traipsing around necessary. Put the car in park and on the tee or practice facilities in 2 minutes.
As for the course, interesting greens.
-
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.
I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that. Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary. Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla. Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.
Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable. An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.
Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac, :( the most important employee is the golf course superintendent. Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.
P.S. Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do. If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.
-
.... the most important employee is the golf course superintendent. Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.
+1
Atb
-
Personally, it's about making you feel welcome.
Great staff who want a guest to enjoy themselves.
Great members who are proud to show off their course.
Personally I prefer a relaxed, informal environment and despite having been fortunate enough to play the majority of the most well known courses, I've found that most great clubs intrinsically are at ease with themselves (through their membership, staff and course) and this translates over very well and makes guests feel comfortable. In effect, they don't have to "try hard" because they know they've got "it". The sort of place where different groups end up sitting together in the bar after a round, the sort of place where you'll meet interesting people who love golf.
On a purely golfing front, it must be walkable (and strongly encouraged), caddies should be available, and the pace of play should be quick.
I'd like to offer Gulph Mills as an excellent example of what Tom describes.
-
A 2 ball club sounds wonderful, but in practice can be a difficult enterprise in a place like the US where 4somes is not played. The membership would have to be so small that the membership/greenfee would be unduly expensive. I recall going over the numbers for the Sacred 9 and thinking if there were more than 44 golfers on the course it would seem packed and that is assuming everybody was playing 4somes. The idea works if the local membership is relatively small and there is a healthy country membership to offset costs. Is there a market In US for such a place?
Happy Hockey
-
Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.
As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.
I would love your thoughts one what “within the reach” means?
I'll take a stab at this..
This is the rate sheet for Bandon courses. IMO, the December - February rates are "within reach" for most, while peak season rates June-October...not so much.
https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/2020-green-fees
-
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.
-
Fire pit. Great socializer after play. Really appreciated on a cold morning.
Short-game practice area which you can access without needing to use GPS.
-
If you are staring a new place, IMO filing a niche and making it unique would give you an advantage. In the USA foursomes aren’t common, but would really enjoy a club that required 2 balls a couple days a week in the mornings at least. It requires socializing as a team as a foursome format or an intimate round as a match head to head. Love Royal St George’s for this reason. Doesn’t have to be every day all day, but having this as something to look forward to during your long weekend would make it unique. Perhaps a Friday or Monday to sandwich around the weekend.
Intimate housing on site that is walking distance from clubhouse. Comfortable beds, with nice linens. Patios with fire pits, big screens with some sports, maybe barrels of peanuts or popcorn machine etc. would be relaxing. Pretty laid back atmosphere if you throw your peanut shells on the floor. ;D
Great locker room area with nice showers, towels, a place to get a drink and relax for a few minutes. Locker room attendant is usually a key member of the private club staff. For a private club he is a forward face to your guests adn key to making their experience a great one.
I really like having a well stocked halfway or 1/3 of the way snack shacks. Having to slow down your round adn take a few minutes to relax a la Maidstone is great adn welcome in a key location. Another cool place was Sunningdale, or Cathedral Lodge in Australia.
I know everyone loves walking on here and I do as well, but for 36 hole days for multiple days a week would wear me out and my dad. So having carts would allow for quick afternoon or twilight rounds.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned a 9 hole par 3 course. I think this will continue to grow in popularity with kids and beginners loving it.
Good luck.
-
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.
I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that. Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary. Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla. Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.
Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable. An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.
Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac, :( the most important employee is the golf course superintendent. Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.
P.S. Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do. If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.
Woking.
Ira
-
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.
Peter,
The conflict you’re dealing with, I believe, is that what you think is ideal, is a course, nearby, where, without fuss, you drive to, unload your clubs, play a thoughtfully designed course with some lovely chaps, then return home to your loving family. What is being described here is far from that....it is a destination that fits a fairly narrow set of ideals (and pocketbooks). It is the Keiser model, re-implemented to feel distinctive, yet everything I’ve read is a list of conditions that already exist.....nothing wrong with any of this, but you’re a homebody who would greatly appreciate what others are experiencing, but would have to travel for it.
In thinking further about this, I’m not so sure that the destination makes the travel worthwhile, it might be the effort of the travel has a direct impact on the perception of the destination....if that makes any sense.
-
I'll take a shower when I get home.
As the secretary at The Berkshire reportedly used to tell overseas visitors complaining about the locker room, "The members bathe at their castles."
Happy New Year!
-
Forgot to mention discovering Riverfront 12 minutes from home.
-
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.
I would like to point out that I’m specifically talking about a special occasion club where you stay, eat, play, socialize. Not talking about your everyday local club
-
Zac,
Lots of things covered and your summary articulates the vision nicely.
My adds:...
Golfers like playing games. Have them available if it fits the vibe of the club.
- darts
- pool
- ping pong
- foos ball
- bocci (Ballyneal!)
And...great candy in jars.
Jelly beans, ginger snaps, peanut MMS.
See you there...!... ;D
Cheers,
Ian
-
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.
I’ve seen the showers at a few UK clubs and agree, I’ll take a shower when I get back to the States.
-
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:
- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...
-
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:
- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...
Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.
-
1. Good weather.
2. Course not over-crowded.
3. Highlight Nature.
4 . Pitch and putt course or putting green for after golf
5. No logistical issues.
-
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.
I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that. Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary. Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla. Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.
Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable. An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.
Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac, :( the most important employee is the golf course superintendent. Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.
P.S. Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do. If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.
+1. Finding the correct superintendent will give you the product as well as save money!
-
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:
- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...
Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.
I think I agree with this a private course/destination such as Zac describes.
-
Outside of great staff, the course needs to be fun. I am sure more people would like to play another 18 after playing a fun course, compared to playing a course that just beat you up.
..people that are members of clubs that require caddies, might not want a caddie - should not be mandatory.
Lodging should have options, you can stay in a dorm room upstairs for cheap or rent out 8 bedroom cottage for $$$$$ - similar to PV and Laurel Valley.
Members and Guest will want to come back if they feel like they are getting a good deal, no one wants sticker shock after a fun long weekend.
I took the liberty of editing your excellent list.
Sometimes a dorm no frills, cameradic experience is the absolute best-Others might prefer a different option. A choice is nice-at least at some phase of the project.
-
A place I enjoy going to is Chechessee.
I don't know how to quantify it, but they have done a nice job combining nice with comfortable.
Things are pretty well done there, but it never feels stuffy.
-
Great question Zac and a very important one… A lot of good stuff already from the folks here.
I’m sure a lot of people on this forum are members at private clubs that follow traditional club rules and practices. While that is fine and what not its nice to escape that and experience something TOTALLY different.
To me when I go to my 2nd club out west I just love the fact it’s the complete opposite of what I get back home. It’s a good variety and keeps me coming back for more. I always said I don’t think I could join another “country club” as a national member.
Most important it needs to be laid back atmosphere. People will come visit the Buck Club as an escape from reality to have fun with their guest.
A few things from my travels that stood out from clubs who’ve done it right.
Lodging – has to simple and RIGHT on site. You can roll out of your bed and be in the dining room, practice range or first tee in 20 seconds. The individual rooms at Ohoopee are just a nice set up.
Food – keep this simple. Few items for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Pre Fix isn’t a bad idea but hard to please EVERYONE on property when you serve just one dish. Make it 2-3 items and be sure to make everyone happy.
Population – Keep the number at a reasonable head count. People are travelling from far distances so getting in as much golf as possible is the main objective. If the property has +100 golfers on site getting in a second 18 or emergency 9 may be delayed which can be frustrating. People just want to golf as much as possible.
Dress Code – leave the chinos and loafers at home. A nice t-shirt, shorts and flip flops can still look decent if done correctly. Again back to the vacation mindset here.
Facilities – this one is important. Rather have multiple small facilities than one large complex. Separate pro shop, dining and lodging make for a cool “village like” atmosphere. Tobacco Road, Ohoopee and Ballyneal all come to mind here.
Post round vibe – have something to do once the golf is finished that brings everyone on property together. Maybe a fire pit or a punchbowl putting green. People are there to make friends so having a spot where everyone can meet with a beverage is very key. Last thing you want is people dining solo, having post round drinks at their table and then heading back to their rooms. That’s no fun!
Good luck Zac!
-
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.
I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that. Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary. Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla. Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.
Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable. An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.
Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac, :( the most important employee is the golf course superintendent. Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.
P.S. Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do. If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.
Spot on post.
Having a flexible, go with the flow staff is important, but as Tom points out,so is member selection and "training"-especially as they are expressing interest in the club.
As our owner often says, "we are not the 4 Seasons-we are family"(The Hotel, not the Landscaping Co,)
i.e.people are often more than willing to do things for themselves if they are made comfortable and empowered to do so-but some may politely seek assistance, and it should be readily available.
Palmetto(prepandemic)There is rarely a F&B person behind the counter-grab n go and record or report it to pro shop as you walk out.
At the Bridge we have always tried to not bury the customer with bag drop/arrival service, but have someone subtly available for those in need, which is a trickly line with our clientele-the pandemic showed us that many were quite happy to load and unload their own push carts and clubs, and happily play without caddies-or even on course water and F&B.
So much so that we are doing away with mandatory caddies, something I have always wanted to experiment with, and the pandemic allowed.
For the record, our caddies had their most successful season ever last year-the first year caddies were NOT mandatory-as those requesting caddies tend to be far more generous than those obligated to take caddies.
However, we will not allow the substitution of a cart for a caddie and retain our over 65 or medical requirement for carts. The myth is that "mandatory caddies" are required for a functioning program, but I see no need to tax those who don't (always) want them to satisfy the needs of those who do.
There is a formula for retaining enough caddies and it simply has to be adjusted based on good record keeping and of course having a certain number of members that can go either way on taking a caddie.
A caddie program also presents a great opportunities to provide invaluable service for the local youth community, which is a lot more work and schedule juggling, but the rewards far outweigh the effort.Again, member flexibility is key here as the rounds aren't always played when the youth are available so multiple options have to be explored.
The biggest key Tom hits on is the importance of the Superintendent-absolutely the most key employee in terms of not only the obvious things as construction/grow-i and maintenance, but also his zest for the game.
-
A place I enjoy going to is Chechessee.
I don't know how to quantify it, but they have done a nice job combining nice with comfortable.
Things are pretty well done there, but it never feels stuffy.
Few places do it better. What golf and a club should be.
Bob
-
I'll take a shower when I get home.
As the secretary at The Berkshire reportedly used to tell overseas visitors complaining about the locker room, "The members bathe at their castles."
Happy New Year!
Presumably that was Col. Hunt? ;D
-
Best also find some ladies to ask the question to. :)
-
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:
- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...
Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.
Mike,
There are several economies of scale to be found at destinations with multiple courses as well as provide additional variety to the masses who want it. But if your goal is to play the same one over and over for a birdie-fest, i'm pretty sure there aren't any rules preventing you to just forgo the others! ;)
P.S. Do you think Bandon would have become what it is today if Mike had just built Bandon Dunes? We all would have lost something if the other gems were never built...
-
Zac,
You've had some very good feedback and I'm sure you have many great resources at you disposal.
So my input is very simple, do what you love. Club's have personalities, yours will be a mirror of your golf beliefs. If you don't start that way, it will revert over time because it will always be Zac's place, so make it so from the get go.
If it was Don's place; national destination club or not, no tee times. Show up and make a game, I'd manage this by never allowing more "members" onsite than this approach can handle. My course property would have very limited practice ground; practice at home, come to my club to play a match. I would not have a short course or pitch and putt, but I would work with my designer to have some "courses" within the course close to the house.
I'd have some decent lodging, focusing on showers and beds, but no kitchen or bars, you come to the community house to eat and drink. Mine would be a social club. And I'd have an awesome fire pit near some golf with a little lighting.
My imaginary course would be wide and rumply, super bold in places, quiet in others. No one would play a course at home like the one they see when they visit me. I could go on and on....I hope you enjoy this as it truly is once in a lifetime stuff....make it your own.
-
Casting my eye through the posts above including my own has me re-thinking that my best golfing experiences have probably all been between holes 1-18 or 1-9 with what happened outwith this not actually mattering that much.
Sure a bit of swank is nice occasionally but generally what happens at the Club/course beforehand and afterwards is nice but generally incidental.
On reflection what I’m really looking for is interesting golf but not necessarily manicured, good putting and chipping areas, a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if necessary change clothes and a relaxing bar/lounge area with a view to sit for a beverage and a snack or a light meal before heading for home or lodging if on a trip. Pretty much the simpler the better.
Each to their own though.
Atb
-
I managed to get myself and the golf clubs the X miles to the golf course. I'm certain that I can navigate the grounds with my clubs on my own, thank you. And the burden of proof otherwise is on you, not me.
...and if that burden of proof needs to exist you're not likely providing the level of experience that will make me a regular.
-
a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if
I do love a good net!
NW Golfclub one of my favorites-right on the bay and first tee.
-
I do not wish to overcomplicate but a few thoughts
Design a practice putting green so it can be played at night with boat drinks available that is to say probably lit and convenient to service.
I support a spot to witness the return to the clubhouse thinking of Walleseye and St Enodoc.
I would add to Bogie's urinal splattrguards a small section of stainless steel grating/drain under ea urinal as well
I would also hold up Mike Young's maintenance practices at The Fields which provide great but not cushy conditions and have to make things more affordable
-
a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if
I do love a good net!
NW Golfclub one of my favorites-right on the bay and first tee.
+1. NB and Brora.
And no welcome bags with tees, etc. Just a bowl by the starter.
Ira
-
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:
- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...
Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.
Mike,
There are several economies of scale to be found at destinations with multiple courses as well as provide additional variety to the masses who want it. But if your goal is to play the same one over and over for a birdie-fest, i'm pretty sure there aren't any rules preventing you to just forgo the others! ;)
P.S. Do you think Bandon would have become what it is today if Mike had just built Bandon Dunes? We all would have lost something if the other gems were never built...
I get the economies of scale, but it seems to me these golf trips can get into nothing more than belt notching, with races from course to course, versus truly absorbing and appreciating each course. It’s not about shooting scores for me but having fun matches, it takes me a few rounds to get comfortable on a course, thus my preference.
Build a course good enough so that 18 holes is enough for golfers to stay put and be happy for 3 days. When I was at Secession 15 moths ago one group left in the afternoon to go play Berkeley Hall for the PM round and missed lunch, drinks and dinner, which I viewed as a waste. The experience stem to stern on site should be enough. And it is at Secession these guys had never been there before when they made their plans.
Have the additional courses at Casa de Campo added anything to the elevate the experience?
-
A question if I may.
Once you’ve played a few top level elite links courses or heathland courses or other courses in a particular category do you gain anything special experience wise from playing another not that dissimilar course within the same category?
Or would you be more likely to gain something special experience wise, something unforgettable, something different to the norm, from playing somewhere very different and unusual say for example Askernish, Lofoten Links, Himalayan/Nepal, a desert course, a course within a South African game reserve etc etc?
Just asking.:)
Atb
-
A question if I may.
Once you’ve played a few top level elite links courses or heathland courses or other courses in a particular category do you gain anything special experience wise from playing another not that dissimilar course within the same category?
Or would you be more likely to gain something special experience wise, something unforgettable, something different to the norm, from playing somewhere very different and unusual say for example Askernish, Lofoten Links, Himalayan/Nepal, a desert course, a course within a South African game reserve etc etc?
Just asking. :)
Atb
I would say you would learn and remember more from the latter, but nearly all examples you cite are quite wildly remote experiences, something quite different than Zac is developing, which while remote and stand alone,is 35 minutes from 3 mid sized cities.
-
Public - Bandon does it as well as anyone.
Private - I think reining in the assholes is the key. The clubs with the best atmosphere have someone able to do that while constantly tending to the overall vibe of the place.
Facilities are far less important than the people and the atmosphere.
-
2 x 18-holes at Muirfield/HCEG with lunch between rounds sitting amongst the members at their 'long tables'.
atb
Very difficult to beat
-
Public - Bandon does it as well as anyone.
Private - I think reining in the assholes is the key. The clubs with the best atmosphere have someone able to do that while constantly tending to the overall vibe of the place.
Facilities are far less important than the people and the atmosphere.
Jason,
What do you consider an asshole? I don’t recall ever meeting one at any club that I have visited or been a member. Must be like the old poker adage: If you don’t see a sucker at the table...
-
I wouldn't build anything but a maintenance building, green complexes and fairways for the first couple of years. This is your first attempt at designing a course. Why commit yourself financially or strategically to anything except the basics until you better understand what you and your customers want and how the routing, the property, and "the experience" fits those wants?
I'd even wait on most of the fairway bunkers and tee boxes. Give yourself and your superintendent some time to learn on the job - there will be plenty to keep you busy before worrying about cottages, soup of the day, or what name to call the Spring calcutta.
Michael
-
I wouldn't build anything but a maintenance building, green complexes and fairways for the first couple of years. This is your first attempt at designing a course. Why commit yourself financially or strategically to anything except the basics until you better understand what you and your customers want and how the routing, the property, and "the experience" fits those wants?
I'd even wait on most of the fairway bunkers and tee boxes. Give yourself and your superintendent some time to learn on the job - there will be plenty to keep you busy before worrying about cottages, soup of the day, or what name to call the Spring calcutta.
Michael
Michael-It sounds good in theory but likely has no practical application. How many players would be okay plunking down a wad of cash or paying membership fees to play an unfinished golf course? I agree that the rest of the trappings(food, lodging, sheet thread count, signature drink) are an afterthought when compared to the main event which is the golf course.
-
For better or worse, I think Zac's marketing and merchandising for his golf course has guaranteed a rush of of early customers.
What I'm recommending is he NOT cater to this early crowd of hard core followers, but instead use the safety net that those customers provide to buy himself time to learn and implement a sustainable long term model.
I agree completely it would be unrealistic for 95% of developers. Zac is in a rare position.
Michael
-
For better or worse, I think Zac's marketing and merchandising for his golf course has guaranteed a rush of of early customers.
What I'm recommending is he NOT cater to this early crowd of hard core followers, but instead use the safety net that those customers provide to buy himself time to learn and implement a sustainable long term model.
I agree completely it would be unrealistic for 95% of developers. Zac is in a rare position.
Michael
Michael-I don’t know anything about the financing but I have to assume there are some investors that will want to be made whole sooner rather than later. If that’s not the case then lucky Zac.
-
Listening to the Matt Ginella podcast on starting up Bandon, one point struck me:
Mr. Keiser hired leaders who would be "all in." The first GM was the son of the head of Kemper. Keiser seemed to think that the big boss wouldn't let his son fail. Same with David McLay Kidd. Hiring them also saved Keiser a lot of money and brought energetic folks very hungry to prove themselves. So you got experience and drive.
https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella (https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella)
So a place like the Buck Club should use start-up principles like Bandon. (If I was Zac, I would read as much as possible about Minimum-Viable-Products. Likely that looks like Sweetens / Bandon).
Go minimalist with the food, clubhouse, and lodging (if any). People at Bethpage sleep in cars to play golf.
Bottom-line: Do invest in the best-possible golf (aim for Tara Iti) with the staff incredibly friendly and responsive. Then build out. Lot of good ideas in this thread, but I would focus on hiring on a great design team and GM. Rest should follow.
The finished-product doesn't need to be Bandon. But I would copy Keiser's philosophy.
And best golf experiences: The Honors, PV, Merion, Baltusrol, Whisper Rock. In some ways, very different.
-
Zac ... I think the key is to match your target audience with the experience.
If you wanted members from this board, I would focus on great architecture with more a purists view of a club. Making it interesting on different days is probably of high importance.
My old club that was full of low handicaps and wannabe golf pros, you'd need greater difficulty on the course and the ability to play with other low handicap players and real golf pros. Having a game really mattered to most.
If you are targeting the affluent, remember most of them aren't skilled at golf so you need easy holes and lush landscaping. Lots of service. Range balls of your brand, drinks delivered, etc.
I've always wanted to own and or build a golf course, and every real idea I've had I've been pretty sure it would be a financial failure (except for ones that everyone on this board would hate including myself).
Best of luck in finding something that you are happy with and is financially viable. My sense is that the course needs to be architecturally interesting with a skew toward easy or scoreable may be part of the direction you are headed. The course is central IMO. The other stuff is complimentary/secondary.
-
Some of my best golf experiences have involved tournaments. I play at a municipal course, so it’s always nice to be able to venture out to a private course and be treated like a member for a day or a weekend. Many of the private clubs in the Berkshires (Massachusetts) offer one or two-day invitational tournaments. They aren’t all geared towards the best players, many are flighted by handicap. It gives more people an experience they aren’t usually accustomed to and many of the same players come back year after year.
I think having local matches between professionals would also be a cool experience. Reading articles from back in the day, many courses would open with 2-4 professionals coming to town to showcase the new golf course. I think many local golfers/members wonder how their course would hold up to the pros game and because of the Tour players busy schedules this doesn’t happen anymore, unless it’s going to be shown on television.
This second idea isn’t something I would recommend to every golf course, but with Zac’s standing I think he would be capable of making that happen at his club. Best of Luck with the Club.
-
A great walk that makes me want to head back to the first tee (Mid Pines/Lawsonia). A course that requires thought on each shot, greens that only give up their secrets over time, pace of play not to exceed 3:45, a good bar menu and a place to overlook the 18th green. As for personnel, the only thing better than golf at Bandon was the customer service.
-
A great walk that makes me want to head back to the first tee (Mid Pines/Lawsonia). A course that requires thought on each shot, greens that only give up their secrets over time, pace of play not to exceed 3:45, a good bar menu and a place to overlook the 18th green. As for personnel, the only thing better than golf at Bandon was the customer service.
Jay,
My answer back in Post 12 was MP/PN. And I agree about the customer service at Bandon. I also was pleasantly surprised about the ease of getting a reasonably priced bar menu at Bandon. But I find that a somewhat fine line. Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost. And the food at both was pretty mediocre despite the efforts to jazz up the menus.
Give me the patio overlooking the 18th at MP with the strong pours and solid burgers every day.
Ira
-
Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost.
Streamsong and Pinehurst are both owned by large corporations, so, that's exactly what you get. Bandon is not. Mid Pines is not. Zac's course presumably won't be, either.
-
Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost.
Streamsong and Pinehurst are both owned by large corporations, so, that's exactly what you get. Bandon is not. Mid Pines is not. Zac's course presumably won't be, either.
Yep.
-
In America, it doesn't get any better than Ohoopee. In Scotland, HCEG. The key factor for me is that everything at both places encourages cross-group interaction, which allows you to really feel like you are a part of the club as a guest for the short time you are there. Simple but excellent food, served family style. Ample and free flowing beverages. Match play. Excellent accommodations. Something different on the course in the morning and afternoon.
-
Listening to the Matt Ginella podcast on starting up Bandon, one point struck me:
Mr. Keiser hired leaders who would be "all in." The first GM was the son of the head of Kemper. Keiser seemed to think that the big boss wouldn't let his son fail. Same with David McLay Kidd. Hiring them also saved Keiser a lot of money and brought energetic folks very hungry to prove themselves. So you got experience and drive.
https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella (https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella)
So a place like the Buck Club should use start-up principles like Bandon. (If I was Zac, I would read as much as possible about Minimum-Viable-Products. Likely that looks like Sweetens / Bandon).
Go minimalist with the food, clubhouse, and lodging (if any). People at Bethpage sleep in cars to play golf.
Bottom-line: Do invest in the best-possible golf (aim for Tara Iti) with the staff incredibly friendly and responsive. Then build out. Lot of good ideas in this thread, but I would focus on hiring on a great design team and GM. Rest should follow.
The finished-product doesn't need to be Bandon. But I would copy Keiser's philosophy.
And best golf experiences: The Honors, PV, Merion, Baltusrol, Whisper Rock. In some ways, very different.
Agree 100%.
-
Southern Pines in January or February. Play Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Dormie Club and Tobacco Road. Lather, Rinse, Repeat at least once annually until the reaper comes to claim you. Eat dinner at the Beefmastor Inn in Wilson, NC either on the way in or the way out. All accessible with the exception of Dormie which is pretty friendly.
-
Good gosh, some of these lists…
My list is pretty simple, but probably tough to do:
- A good golf course that you want to play again, ideally with some smaller loops for extending or renewing bets or just to get in a few holes in an hour or 45 minutes or whatever.
- Good people, good staff. This may be the most important part.
- Simple amenities that meet basic needs and not much more.
The latter, KISS, and play to the audience. If it’s mostly members, a practice facility, a good bar and grill (maybe not even finer dining, keep things less formal), and a cottage or two for occasional guests, along with a simple locker room and pro shop. If it’s a destination place, more good lodging close, and less of the locker room/shower stuff. Less of the practice facility stuff (though a big putting green like Thistle Dhu or Streamsong by Black is a great way to have fun with a beverage or two and a friend or ten).
The most important is the people, the next is the golf course, and the amenities are third, but on that, I’m a fan of keeping it simple. Don’t over-spend on that stuff. Keep things authentic. People spend times in all sorts of crappy places if they enjoy the people they’re with, so you don’t have to make the “best” of everything if you have great people and a good or great course.
-
Has anyone ever been to a private course without good people?
-
Has anyone ever been to a private course without good people?
No...but I have been to a few where the members carried great concern for reining in the assholes that might visit them... ;D
-
After skimming through 4 pages of suggestions (all very good) my elevator speech take away from this is:
1. FBD Marty Bonnar hit point #1 - affordability
2. Honor fridges, candy, modest play, on-site stays with a good bar etc. all cost money and require some level of service that most would not want to pay for on an ongoing basis IMHO.
I recall having golf weekends in Las Vegas in shoulder season and vising LV with my wife, who enjoys gambling. We would drive out to the Paiute Golf Resort 25 minutes from the Strip. Being in the golf business at the time, I thought the course, clubhouse, experience and staff were about the best I'd ever experienced at any facility which catered to the general paying public, and the courses were playable for my wife, who on a good day may break 100. Since I haven't played there in several years this may have changed.
-
Would love to get some opinions on what are the key aspects to providing a great golf experience?
Obviously the golf itself has to be great ... but there are some many other things in play that can elevate your experience while visiting somewhere.
Other than course quality:
1. Hospitality
2. Pace of Play
3. Lunch
4. Tradition
5. Dormie house
-
As Tom said, Stonewall does it right. I am glad someone mentioned Ohoopee because that was my first thought as to how I would want a club run. And Jeff Warne does it right and knows from experience. If you follow their philosophy, you will have a hit.