Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Richard Fisher on December 06, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/55204070
One of the things I always liked and respected about Peter Alliss was that his world of golf was emphatically one built around Golf Clubs (i.e. the institutions). Championships and Ryder Cups and professional tours were all very well, but the core of the game revolved around clubs, and the members and staff thereof. He was almost certainly the last mainstream golf broadcaster of whom that could be said. Rather as Bernard Darwin always looked back to the Edwardian Age, and Henry Longhurst to the rather raffish, febrile world of the 1930s, Alliss always seemed to me to be somebody at home in the 1950s, when golf (certainly in the UK) was a quiet and somehow pre-industrial undertaking. Above all, he was somebody who always remembered that golf was a game. Truly his passing marks the end of an era.
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RIP Mr. Alliss. Recently I was watching an old US Open. The broadcast team included Alliss, Jim McKay, Jack Whitaker, Dave Marr and Bob Rosburg. What a talented team.
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I thought about that today...Darwin begat Longhurst, who gave us Aliss. I think that Faldo is too compromised in the business, so perhaps we will look again to the medium of print to find our next siren voice, the one who woos us toward the rocks of golf's essence.
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Sad news. I thought he spoke "goff" to those who didn't know it better than anyone.
P.S. Can anyone confirm that my favorite all time sport quote was actually Mr. Alliss:"Not even a courting couple would venture into those woods."
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Peter had a terrific sense of humor and his timing was always spot on. He said more with way less words than most.
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His World Golf Hall of Fame speech with first a long introduction - chuckle time - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JifGn_yJ4YQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JifGn_yJ4YQ) - RIP.
Atb
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I never realized what a good player he was until a few months ago when I saw some footage. Many strong showings in the Open, but only played in the Masters twice and no other majors. In the Open, 8, T8, T8, T9, T11, T12, T13, T16, T18, T20, etc.
He has 10 top 20s in the Open and Tiger Woods has 11.
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His World Golf Hall of Fame speech with first a long introduction - chuckle time - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JifGn_yJ4YQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JifGn_yJ4YQ) - RIP.
Atb
Thanks Dai!
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"My Top 10 Courses with Peter Alliss"
https://www.linksmagazine.com/my_top_10_peter_alliss/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=insider12.7
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I think I was watching these course flyovers from Seaton Carew the night Peter Allis passed away:
https://www.seatoncarewgolfclub.co.uk/page.aspx?pid=37518 (https://www.seatoncarewgolfclub.co.uk/page.aspx?pid=37518)
Allis does the voiceover for all 22 holes.
In the olden days when there wasn't much golf on TV, we used look forward to watching Around with Allis and Pro Celebrity Golf.
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I will miss his Open commentary.
On Golf Channel, they played some highlights. He was calling the US Open in 1982 and when Watson chipped in on 17, Allis said, "Well, well, well... and there's a shot that will be remembered for as long as golf continues to be played." I'm not sure it could have been called better. RIP
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I will miss his Open commentary.
On Golf Channel, they played some highlights. He was calling the US Open in 1982 and when Watson chipped in on 17, Allis said, "Well, well, well... and there's a shot that will be remembered for as long as golf continues to be played." I'm not sure it could have been called better. RIP
I can't plug in the VCR this moment, so I'll have to unfortunately crib...
2010 Open... 2nd rd... heavy winds... middle of a long slow, slogging survival day for the golfers and 16 hour day for the coverage crews... Monty, who's had a fair to middlin day, on the 8th tee, about to start the famous Loop and Allis sets the scene as Monty chooses his club, eyes the situation and prepares to strike... all of this from a camera position directly behind Monty's aim...
"Here he begins the stretch where anything can happen; on each of the next four holes a two is possible...a 2...a 3...4...5...6... (Monty swings, as Allis trails off.).. 7...8... Jack, Queen, King..."
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I read an interesting piece in the Times today that mentioned that Alliss and Dave Thomas were hired by the R&A "to update Turnberry in preparation for its first Open Championship in 1977. His rejected third design showed the boldness that had characterised him as a player, but also a radicalism that the Royal & Ancient could not bring itself to accept. To the end of his days Alliss hankered after being given carte blanche at Turnberry "with a few bob"".
I can't recall hearing of that before and there is nothing in the Turnberry history book. It would be interesting to hear more of what they had planned.
Niall
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2010 Open... 2nd rd... heavy winds... middle of a long slow, slogging survival day for the golfers and 16 hour day for the coverage crews... Monty, who's had a fair to middlin day, on the 8th tee, about to start the famous Loop and Allis sets the scene as Monty chooses his club, eyes the situation and prepares to strike... all of this from a camera position directly behind Monty's aim...
"Here he begins the stretch where anything can happen; on each of the next four holes a two is possible...a 2...a 3...4...5...6... (Monty swings, as Allis trails off.).. 7...8... Jack, Queen, King..."
2015 Open at St. Andrews also 2nd round. Peter Alliss: “Ah, young Jordan Spieth... he’s been 21 years of age longer than wife claimed to be 39...”
Genius.
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2015 Open at St. Andrews also 2nd round. Peter Alliss: “Ah, young Jordan Spieth... he’s been 21 years of age longer than wife claimed to be 39...”
Genius.
I think the very first time I became "aware" of +Peter Allis as more than just the British voice on ABC golf telecasts, was during a Senior TPC in the mid 80s, and Bruce Crampton (with several marshals and gallery) looking for a errant ball in tall dry marsh grass... long silence... followed by:
"Mmmm-eh my, dear, dear...he's near as likely to find Sir David Attenborough in there."
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Richard has it spot on. He was the last of an era that connected professional golfers to clubs rather than tours.
His turn of phrase was unsurpassed and his old-school lack of political correctness is something that will be missed, if only to counter the over-compensation that the modern world is imposing on us.
Perhaps his most risqué comment - and his funniest joke - was the Carol Vorderman reference. Only relevant for British viewers.
But really it was his observational commentary on side-occurrences during 12 hours straight watching of The Open that I will remember most.
RIP.
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The one that immediately comes to mind is the aside about "being overweight and unemployed" on an Open telecast some years ago.... Mike Tirico and a few others audibly burst into laughter.
I took him a bit for granted I think. Back when ABC had three majors his voice became a ubiquitous one but I wasn't really old enough then to appreciate it. Same with the likes of Jim McKay and Judy Rankin, the latter of whom thankfully is still with us.
For all the advances in technology and fidelity in golf broadcasting since those days, the commentary and presentation has really regressed. Now it's two minutes of golf, eight minutes of viagra ads and six minutes of ego stroking a sponsor.
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Modern day commentators should study Peter Alliss and his mentor Henry Longhurst. What they said was worth listening to but they never said too much, they usually just let the action flow and then enhanced it with a few choice words sometimes about golf, sometimes about other matters. PA was also pretty smart and occasionally rather naughty when it came to poking fun and with the use of double-meanings.
atb
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I'm not so sure it's something you can learn; you either have it (wit, humour, knowledge of the game and the players both past and present, life experiences, intelligence, a good turn of phrase, etc.) or you haven't.
Unfortunately most commentators nowadays have nothing interesting to say, and that's not just in golf commentary, but there are exceptions. It's a bit like players; some are interesting like Harrington, but many others are not.
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So what was the Carol Vorderman reference. I may not be British, but surely I know enough of them that there's at least one who can explain it.
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There are times when less is more however in latter years I think he forgot that and thought of himself as some great comedy turn. Yes he could be witty on occasion but a stand up comedian he wasn't. That's just my opinion of course and appreciate that others here don't agree. He did however have a remarkable life.
Niall
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So what was the Carol Vorderman reference. I may not be British, but surely I know enough of them that there's at least one who can explain it.
Steve,
Here's an example of Carol Vorderman on Countdown (watch this and you get the idea)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQc4fvF5aj4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQc4fvF5aj4)
Here's the Allis reference to her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNAtNKobfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNAtNKobfI)
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Here's an even better Carol Voorderman snippet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PNSWm_CFYY&ab_channel=BENJIVENIAMIN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PNSWm_CFYY&ab_channel=BENJIVENIAMIN)
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Alliss was funny from time to time, and may he rest in peace, but he really needed to retire quite a long time ago to avoid spoiling his legacy. Like a number of veteran commentators, he had got to the point where he was all 'colour' -- his actual commentary on what was going on was terrible. And his awareness of architecture, for a man whose name was on quite a lot of course designs, was shocking. Every time a ball ran through a green into a bad spot, or into a bunker, you could guarantee that he'd say it was either 'unlucky' (which was probably reasonable) or 'unfair' (which was certainly not). For a man who had played so much links golf, he seemed to have very little understanding of how the game is played on a links.
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Alliss was funny from time to time, and may he rest in peace, but he really needed to retire quite a long time ago to avoid spoiling his legacy. Like a number of veteran commentators, he had got to the point where he was all 'colour' -- his actual commentary on what was going on was terrible. And his awareness of architecture, for a man whose name was on quite a lot of course designs, was shocking. Every time a ball ran through a green into a bad spot, or into a bunker, you could guarantee that he'd say it was either 'unlucky' (which was probably reasonable) or 'unfair' (which was certainly not). For a man who had played so much links golf, he seemed to have very little understanding of how the game is played on a links.
You must get picked to do a lot of eulogies. Very gracious. ::)
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Alliss was funny from time to time, and may he rest in peace, but he really needed to retire quite a long time ago to avoid spoiling his legacy. Like a number of veteran commentators, he had got to the point where he was all 'colour' -- his actual commentary on what was going on was terrible. And his awareness of architecture, for a man whose name was on quite a lot of course designs, was shocking. Every time a ball ran through a green into a bad spot, or into a bunker, you could guarantee that he'd say it was either 'unlucky' (which was probably reasonable) or 'unfair' (which was certainly not). For a man who had played so much links golf, he seemed to have very little understanding of how the game is played on a links.
You must get picked to do a lot of eulogies. Very gracious. ::)
De mortuis nil nisi bonum, but that is what I have always said about Allis. It would be hypocritical in the extreme to change my tune because he is dead.
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Alliss was funny from time to time, and may he rest in peace, but he really needed to retire quite a long time ago to avoid spoiling his legacy. Like a number of veteran commentators, he had got to the point where he was all 'colour' -- his actual commentary on what was going on was terrible. And his awareness of architecture, for a man whose name was on quite a lot of course designs, was shocking. Every time a ball ran through a green into a bad spot, or into a bunker, you could guarantee that he'd say it was either 'unlucky' (which was probably reasonable) or 'unfair' (which was certainly not). For a man who had played so much links golf, he seemed to have very little understanding of how the game is played on a links.
You must get picked to do a lot of eulogies. Very gracious. ::)
De mortuis nil nisi bonum, but that is what I have always said about Allis. It would be hypocritical in the extreme to change my tune because he is dead.
True but Adam at least you'll admit, Alliss always had great timing.
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My favourite moment.
About 15 years ago (so apologies if details are not recalled perfectly) BBC was showing Scottish Open(?) From Loch Lomond. Only the last group on 18 and as they wander down the fairway camera cuts to a boat with swimmers splashing about.
Sam Torrance "err Peter do you like to swim?"
PA "Yes Sam but I learned late. I was taught how by Johnny Weismuller...in Hollywood...Cole Porter was having one of his Sunday afternoon parties...Gary Cooper and Cary Grant...Ava Garner ...wonderful times."
Still the camera is wasting time looking at boats...
PA "Sam perhaps you can help me?"
ST "Certainly Peter...?"
PA "Sam why do people say I'm a name dropper?"
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Richard has it spot on. He was the last of an era that connected professional golfers to clubs rather than tours.
For the past 30 years Deal gives over the course for a day for The Grand Match. Something he started and until recently played in and organised. Team match, ex Walker vs Ryder Cup players. He was an Honorary member of the club.
Like Bill McClaren, Dan Mascal you belonged to a different time. I will miss you.
RIP
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Richard has it spot on. He was the last of an era that connected professional golfers to clubs rather than tours.
For the past 30 years Deal gives over the course for a day for The Grand Match. Something he started and until recently played in and organised. Team match, ex Walker vs Ryder Cup players. He was an Honorary member of the club.
Like Bill McClaren, Dan Mascal you belonged to a different time. I will miss you.
RIP
It's a mistake, IMO, to assume that _all_ those iconic old commentators were as great as the rest. Dan Maskell had the 'less is more' thing down perfect; there is a wonderful story about a Wimbledon final where one of the players did something remarkable, and the guy calling the match for US TV went into a rhapsody of ecstasies. Meanwhile in the BBC box, Maskell just breathed 'Oh I say'.
The best example I can give is one that only Brits, and perhaps an Aussie or two will get: the cricket commentators Brian Johnston and Henry Blofeld. The (late and great) Johnston was famous for his digressions, which frankly are an essential part of ball-by-ball coverage of a five day cricket match. But he never missed a ball. Blofeld, by contrast, would witter on about pigeons flying past the commentary box, London buses going up St John's Wood Road, etc, etc, and people said 'Oh Blowers, he's such a character'. Except that the ball would go to a fielder and he would singularly fail to identify who the fielder was. He was all colour and no accuracy.
In his younger days, Alliss was more of a Johnston. But for many years, he had been a Blofeld.
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Alliss was funny from time to time, and may he rest in peace, but he really needed to retire quite a long time ago to avoid spoiling his legacy. Like a number of veteran commentators, he had got to the point where he was all 'colour' -- his actual commentary on what was going on was terrible. And his awareness of architecture, for a man whose name was on quite a lot of course designs, was shocking. Every time a ball ran through a green into a bad spot, or into a bunker, you could guarantee that he'd say it was either 'unlucky' (which was probably reasonable) or 'unfair' (which was certainly not). For a man who had played so much links golf, he seemed to have very little understanding of how the game is played on a links.
You must get picked to do a lot of eulogies. Very gracious. ::)
De mortuis nil nisi bonum, but that is what I have always said about Allis. It would be hypocritical in the extreme to change my tune because he is dead.
Geeze, thankfully I never read your thoughts on Peter Alliss- because here I am having always admired him, and enjoyed his sound of golf.
I'm not looking for a ton of insight about the game while listening to the telecast. I'm watching the players and the course - and if for some reason something insightful or fun is going on, well give me Peter Alliss.
Long live those great interviews and so much history on the mic.
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Mike
I wonder if your view of Alliss is maybe coloured by his appearances on US TV where I suspect he was there more on an occasional basis to add a bit of colour. At the BBC he was the main commentator. Basically the guy who did the closing stages and who can forget his "wonderful" commentary declaring its not over yet as Michelson sank the winning putt at the Masters, or his commentary on Jean Van de Velde at Carnoustie where he described what was a great sporting drama as a farce.
He had his moments but as Adam says he should have hung up the mike a long time ago.
Niall
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Adam (and Niall): Blofeld - after whom the Bond character was named by Ian Fleming who I believe went to school with him - had none of the subtlety or wit of Alliss. Plus he was on radio where descriptive commentary of the action is far more important.
When I am watching The Open for 12 hours straight with no advert breaks, all I want is to watch and occasionally feel like I’m part of a conversation. I don’t need anyone to tell me the nuances of what is happening on the screen. I can see that for myself.
True, the man had lost his sharpness. But he was 89 years old. Just because he didn’t hang up his boots shouldn’t detract from his legacy.
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Can't recall which Open or the player involved but he was commentating with Ken Brown - his best foil.
Player had come up short and pin was back left with a rise immediately in front of it.
PA "Now he doesn't want to get to clever here, just land the chip on the front section and let it run up to 3' or 4'."
KB "...Yes it looks like he has.... an 8 iron?"
Player finishes practicing, addresses the ball and then blades it horribly...5 or 6 skips before it reaches the green heading for right side bunkers. Front of green contour straightens ball up and as it meets the rise, it turns 90 degrees, finishing 2' past the hole.
KB Laughing "Or you could play it like that...."
pause
PA "Ken. I learned a valuable lesson long ago. Papa sat me on his knee and said "Son, never comment on your ball until its finished moving. Often you want your opponent in doubt as to whether or not you planned that"...However in this case..."
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Adam (and Niall): Blofeld - after whom the Bond character was named by Ian Fleming who I believe went to school with him - had none of the subtlety or wit of Alliss. Plus he was on radio where descriptive commentary of the action is far more important.
When I am watching The Open for 12 hours straight with no advert breaks, all I want is to watch and occasionally feel like I’m part of a conversation. I don’t need anyone to tell me the nuances of what is happening on the screen. I can see that for myself.
True, the man had lost his sharpness. But he was 89 years old. Just because he didn’t hang up his boots shouldn’t detract from his legacy.
I agree. An off form PA was still better than 95% of golf commentators. I rarely listen to golf commentary, it's a mute job with music on instead. In PA's last few years he should have been more part time commentary.
Ciao
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Adam (and Niall): Blofeld - after whom the Bond character was named by Ian Fleming who I believe went to school with him - had none of the subtlety or wit of Alliss. Plus he was on radio where descriptive commentary of the action is far more important.
FWIW Fleming was at school with Blofeld's father, from whom it is believed he pinched the name.
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Doesn't 'Private Eye' have a 'So. Farewell Then ........' section?
atb
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Ally
I'm not sure about the subtlety part but he certainly could be witty on occasion however not every occasion called for it and it didn't always come off either. One point I do agree and that's that I don't need anyone to describe the patently obvious and neither do I enjoy the stat driven stuff you tend to get on US TV. To my mind a good commentator can help set the scene and provide invite without being overbearing or too intrusive. Of the present lot on the Beeb I'd suggest that Andrew Cotter probably is the best.
Niall
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My favorite Peter Alliss moment came during an Open Championship telecast years ago. Maybe 20 years ago.
A nanosecond after impact of someone’s shot, some fool yelled “You da man!” (Or maybe “Get in the hole!” One of those inane calls.)
Almost as quickly, Alliss said (I might be paraphrasing, but only very slightly): “Oh, dear. Somebody must’ve caught one of those cheap flights.”
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Most memorable for me was some open championship, early in the coverage with not much of interest going on at the time. Camera focuses on some french fries and Allis goes on at length about warm chips on a chilly day. The camera widens out to show the woman holding the chips. She is extraordinarily wrinkled. I was taken aback and heard “ . . . .ahhh, where is the Botox when you need it.”
It captured my reaction before I could put words to it. I am glad, however, that I did not say it.
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What I most appreciated about him was that beneath everything he said was always an air of grateful bemusement -- as if he could not believe his great good fortune (and ours) at being able to play and watch and talk about golf, and as if we all quietly understood and appreciated that in this vale of tears we'd been granted very few gifts as delightful as the game.
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Interesting reading some of the critical feedback from our UK brethren who had regular doses of him compared to here in the US where it was usually once per year. I absolutely loved listening to him with his whimsical wit and on the fly hilarious hot takes. It was great stuff!
Perhaps its more just an indictment on how dreadful golf announcing is in the US with gawd-awful "Welcome Friends" schtick. College hoops has some great announcers, why can't we get some of that in golf? ;)
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I was thinking the same thing. Watching 30 events a year on CBS kinda makes you appreciate him a bit more. Maybe if you heard him every week it wouldn't be the same.
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Interesting reading some of the critical feedback from our UK brethren who had regular doses of him compared to here in the US where it was usually once per year. I absolutely loved listening to him with his whimsical wit and on the fly hilarious hot takes. It was great stuff!
Perhaps its more just an indictment on how dreadful golf announcing is in the US with gawd-awful "Welcome Friends" schtick. College hoops has some great announcers, why can't we get some of that in golf? ;)
I agree--PA was great in comparison to whom we regularly heard. But then anyone fluent in English would've been better.
And thanks above for the Blofeld explanation.
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With the gentlemen having passed on, if you don't have anything nice to say......... :-X
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Rather amusing ...
https://twitter.com/mrdanwalker/status/1335563922728955905 (https://twitter.com/mrdanwalker/status/1335563922728955905)
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If you want strokes gained stats and details of the player’s college career Alliss wasn’t the commentator for you. If you wanted someone who deeply understood the game, told a few stories and had a deep passion for golf clubs, their members and especially the PGA pro Alliss was superb.
We were pleased to see on the BBC tribute programme today filmed doing an Evening with Peter Alliss in a theatre he was wearing his Royal Cinque Ports club tie, which he wore with pride. One of our artisans wrote this week he’d lost a friend, he’d caddied for Alliss for 20 years in the Grand Match and they’d become friends. Top man.
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Interesting reading some of the critical feedback from our UK brethren who had regular doses of him compared to here in the US where it was usually once per year. I absolutely loved listening to him with his whimsical wit and on the fly hilarious hot takes. It was great stuff!
Perhaps its more just an indictment on how dreadful golf announcing is in the US with gawd-awful "Welcome Friends" schtick. College hoops has some great announcers, why can't we get some of that in golf? ;)
The naysayers are curmudgeons one and all. I expect they would agree if asked 😎
Ciao
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Gentlemen,
I have related this Peter Alliss moment in the past so will just give a summary of the off the cuff wit that he imparted to the millions of viewers watching an Open many years ago.
'Twas in the days of blissful English summers in the 1960s and, as was de rigeur at sporting events in the dawn of flower power, nakedness and streaking was in vogue. A hardy Englishman, wearing only his birthday suit, ran onto the green and was tackled to the ground by a doughty American golfer. The men in blue arrived almost immediately and escorted the exhibitionist out of sight whilst at the same time ensuring that the gentleman's genitals were also out of sight of a world-wide audience courtesy of the escorting British bobbie's pith helmet.
Alliss, live on air, proclaimed to millions of appreciative viewers: "My, my, my; What a big, big fuss to make of such a little, little thing!"
Happy Christmas! Colin