Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: David_Elvins on October 16, 2020, 07:32:33 PM
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Is there a great par 4 or par 5 with a bunker in front of the green?
If not, what hole comes closest, can you have a decent hole with a bunker in front of the green?
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CC of Charleston 16- “Lions Mouth” par four plays 464/436 from back and member tees.
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David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?
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I assume you mean all the way across the front, so there's no chance to bounce the ball onto the green.
And you are right, few of the famous great holes have a feature like this. The only one of the famous templates that does is the Alps: so the 3rd at NGLA and the 17th at Prestwick would lead the conversation.
The other one that came to mind was the 9th at Brancaster.
Pine Valley has a bunch of these but that course always gets exceptions to the rules!
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David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?
Point of concern would be that the best courses I have played don't have any bunkers in front of the green. (I dont think there is a hole on the top 5 courses in Australia with a bunker in front of the green.)
From a theoretical point of view I assume the major issue would be how do you get a course playing firm enough to make the course interesting for good players but soft enough to make it playable for average players.
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I assume you mean all the way across the front, so there's no chance to bounce the ball onto the green.
For the point of the exercise I am willing to accept any hole that has a bunker covering more than half of the front of the green from the preferred side of the fairway.
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David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?
We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.
Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?
That just makes no sense to me. And again, I love landing the ball short and will do it plenty when a hole gives me that option.
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4 and 5 at Bethpage Black come to mind.
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David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th. I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green. Should I keep going 😊
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David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th. I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green. Should I keep going 😊
Okay, I was starting to warm to you, Mr. Fine, but this ... this disgusting, flashy display of your privilege ...
Can I come?
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We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.
But the whole point of this thread (I think) is that nearly all of the truly great holes DO NOT NEED a bunker in front of the green to be great.
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We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.
But the whole point of this thread (I think) is that nearly all of the truly great holes DO NOT NEED a bunker in front of the green to be great.
Well I certainly agree with the second part of your post. But the first part, not as much.. The thread presupposes that there might not be a single "great" hole on earth that has a fronting bunker. And that, to me, is absurd.
I love many holes with fronting bunkers/hazards. I especially love when they are placed late in a round. I love when a hole calls on your to execute a shot when the chips are down. I definitely prefer a hole where you have some room to bail out, certainly, but I prefer that if you do, you will have a very tough pitch to recover (turning a par 4 into a 4.5, say). However, if you pull off the shot (over a bunker, a hazard, etc.), you might make a birdie and square your match or go 1-up, etc.
I loved 17 at Bandon Dunes for that reason -- mostly and especially with a front pin. It's not fronted by a bunker, but by a ravine (gasp!). Two-thirds of it -- maybe a touch less. But even if it was 80% or even 100%, I would still love the hole -- especially to a front-right pin. You have to choose. Choose to take on the front ravine AND the ravine on the right, or bail out left, chip/pitch up, and hope you make your 6-footer. It challenges you to choose and then if you choose aggressively, to execute.
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How about [size=78%]Pebble Beach #18?[/size]
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David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th. I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green. Should I keep going 😊
16 at Merion is a good nomination. Definitely a very interesting golf hole but one I have often thought would need a great deal of study to know if it actually plays like a great golf hole. As for 8, surely that being the worst hole on the course is partly due to the front bunker? Quite the let down after 7.
Philly CC has some amazing green contours but you may be setting a low bar here. Isn't it an interesting course despite having a few holes with fronting bunkers? Not because of the fronting bunkers?
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Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?
"The challenge of having to loft the ball and stop it quickly"...
...For a good player that might be a 250 yard shot, for another player it might be a 80 yard shot...
Surely a fronting bunker is poor way to test this skill seeing you will only really be challenging the small subset of people who will be approaching the green from a distance that they will find to be an interesting challenge? For everyone else it either too easy or too impossible.
If you disagree, I am happy for you to nominate some holes.
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Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?
"The challenge of having to loft the ball and stop it quickly"...
...For a good player that might be a 250 yard shot, for another player it might be a 80 yard shot...
Surely a fronting bunker is poor way to test this skill seeing you will only really be challenging the small subset of people who will be approaching the green from a distance that they will find to be an interesting challenge? For everyone else it either too easy or too impossible.
If you disagree, I am happy for you to nominate some holes.
Shouldn't we all be playing tees appropriate to our ability such that we are in generally the same place hitting such a shot? At least within 30 to 50 yards of one another?
And if not, then we're playing at scratch from the same tees. Or you're (likely) getting a handicap stroke on such a hole. What's the problem? If it's a scratch tournament, I certainly don't complain that I have to hit a 5-wood from 195 when a fellow competitor might have an 9-iron from 155. We both have to get the ball in the air and stop it to the best of our ability.
As to "nominating some holes," that's a tough ask with this crowd, since its virtually impossible for there to be such a hole, evidently. Additionally, I've only played maybe a dozen or so "top courses" in the world in my lifetime. I will, nevertheless, take an inventory of the courses I have played that may offer up a hole that I consider to be exceptional.
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10 at Riviera and 8, 14 and 18 at Pebble.
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10 at Riviera and 8 & 18 at Pebble.
I was going to say 10 at Riviera, but didn't know if the bunkers covered enough of the front.
Also, was wondering if a hazard counts, or does it have to be a bunker, specifically? To be clear...
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9th at Westward Ho!
atb
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Sorry David, it has been tough to get around this year due to Covid to see a lot of courses. I am happy to at least get to see a few good ones of late.
It is all about variety but I very much agree with the comment that a great hole doesn’t need a bunker or a hazard in front of it to be great. There should be zero argument (even on this site) about that.
What makes the 8th at Merion a great hole is that daunting bunker that flanks the green. If every hole was like that it would suck but it’s not. The 8th is a very short four and you need to execute a precise shot to safety reach the green. I understand there are few if any options but an aerial shot but that is ok sometimes. The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is the same. If there were island greens scattered all over the course it would suck but there are not. Avoiding repetition in course design is good (except when there is one great hole after another) :) It is nice when the holes all offer different challenges.
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I would think a course like Pine Tree could make the argument against the original premise.
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I think there are a few, Mark. Whilst on the surface, such a hazard does not encourage the ground game, there are loads more nuances that can make a hole strategic and great.
Perhaps the best hole on my home course is the only one where you really can’t bounce it up: The 14th at Portmarnock.
It is a great hole.
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David,
I am into quoting Donald Ross this morning - :)
Ross had only a few design standards but one of them was this:
"Make each hole present a different problem for the player to solve".
This goes back to my point about avoiding repetition of design features. A hole or two or maybe even three with fronting hazards in 18 holes is probably not repetitive and fulfills Ross' standard of presenting different challenges to take on and solve.
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Sorry David, it has been tough to get around this year due to Covid to see a lot of courses. I am happy to at least get to see a few good ones of late.
It is all about variety but I very much agree with the comment that a great hole doesn’t need a bunker or a hazard in front of it to be great. There should be zero argument (even on this site) about that.
What makes the 8th at Merion a great hole is that daunting bunker that flanks the green. If every hole was like that it would suck but it’s not. The 8th is a very short four and you need to execute a precise shot to safety reach the green. I understand there are few if any options but an aerial shot but that is ok sometimes. The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is the same. If there were island greens scattered all over the course it would suck but there are not. Avoiding repetition in course design is good (except when there is one great hole after another) :) It is nice when the holes all offer different challenges.
Mark, you did scroll to the bottom of my post, I hope. Where I asked "Can I come?" ;-)
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David,
I saw that :) I probably shouldn't have even mentioned I am playing there as I am already starting to get emails from friends as to why they didn't make the short list to join me :(
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Not yet mentioned the 16th at Pebble Beach would be the poster child for this type of hole.
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I'm going to nominate a few holes over the next few days. Keep in mind, though I play quite a bit of golf, I haven't played the number of "great" courses that many on this board have.
2nd hole at Wilshire CC. Fantastic, diabolical par 5, especially in tournament conditions when the greens are firm and fast. They need to lose the bunker short and left off the tee. Other than that, I pucker every time I hit my third on that hole. Hit a good shot and you are rewarded, and bad one and you are putting/chipping from the little depression thingy that guards the right side of the green.
16th hole at Lakeside. Wonderful par 4. One of Hogan's favorite holes ever, so I'm told.
1st hole, par 5 at Spyglass. Brutally, gloriously tough opener -- especially for the distance-challenged, like me. If I don't hit a very solid tee ball, I can end up with 160 or so into that hole after my lay-up ... and into the ocean wind, to boot.
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There are times and holes where you might not have the skill required to stop a ball by the hole. That is on you. A great hole can demand that kind of talent.
The 5th hole at Royal Dornoch is listed by one golf publication as one of the best holes in the UK. There are 3 bunkers in front that demand you hit high a high wedge into it when the hole is on the front and you want to get close. The green is 55 yards deep so you can land it by the hole and it will stay on the green if you can’t stop it.
The hole is only 312 yards from the members tees so when the hole is near the front I layup to leave a full wedge so I spin it, but when it is back I drive it right up to the bunkers and hit a pitch and run over them.
Interestingly the hole is the number 18 handicap hole for men, but still was selected as one of the best.
I setup a good shortish course for a US Senior Open qualifier once and put a bunch of holes right behind the bunkers that fronted the greens. The players were good enough that they could handle that shot and the ones that did it best qualified.
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7th at ANGC, probably not great, but interesting to me because it's is under the radar.
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There are times and holes where you might not have the skill required to stop a ball by the hole. That is on you. A great hole can demand that kind of talent.
The 5th hole at Royal Dornoch is listed by one golf publication as one of the best holes in the UK. There are 3 bunkers in front that demand you hit high a high wedge into it when the hole is on the front and you want to get close. The green is 55 yards deep so you can land it by the hole and it will stay on the green if you can’t stop it.
The hole is only 312 yards from the members tees so when the hole is near the front I layup to leave a full wedge so I spin it, but when it is back I drive it right up to the bunkers and hit a pitch and run over them.
Interestingly the hole is the number 18 handicap hole for men, but still was selected as one of the best.
I setup a good shortish course for a US Senior Open qualifier once and put a bunch of holes right behind the bunkers that fronted the greens. The players were good enough that they could handle that shot and the ones that did it best qualified.
I actually was surprised how few holes came to mind. RD 5 was one of them. PH2 3 was another. Perhaps my definition of great excludes such holes because I am no longer able to hit the necessary shot, but I took a quick look at several difficult courses from my youth and still did not find that many holes with fronting bunkers.
Ira
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The redan style green and bunker is used on many par fours and fives.
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Is the 18th at Pebble a great hole, or a great location for a hole?
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Where does the Road Hole fit into this discussion? The pot bunker is pretty much right in front and draws a lot of water, although you could sneak a ball on the front right with a run up.
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Does it have to be bunkers or does water qualify? If water qualifies, then 13 and 15 at Augusta would be added. Also have 1, 2, 7, 17 and 18 with fronting bunkers there.
1, 12 and 15 at Royal St Georges. Especially 12 I think is a great hole.
4 at St Georges on Long Island
By my count at Shinnecock, 4, 6, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 18 all have bunkers in front that cover around half or more of the green.
3, 8, 16 and 17 next door at NGLA all have fronting bunkers.
2, 7, 8, 13, 17 and 18 at Pine Valley.
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As I said early on there are a ton of great holes with hazards (bunkers,...) in front of the greens. It was RT Jones who I give the most credit for ushering in the aerial game but architects like Flynn and Wilson did so as well however they usually left partial openings for run-up shots. But even very early on (pre-1900), there were holes that required obstacles to be carried in the air to safely reach their intended target. The secret - don't overuse a design feature :)
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18 at The Country Club.
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Bel Air - 2,3,7,9,13,14,16,18.
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David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th. I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green. Should I keep going 😊
16 at Merion is a good nomination. Definitely a very interesting golf hole but one I have often thought would need a great deal of study to know if it actually plays like a great golf hole. As for 8, surely that being the worst hole on the course is partly due to the front bunker? Quite the let down after 7.
Philly CC has some amazing green contours but you may be setting a low bar here. Isn't it an interesting course despite having a few holes with fronting bunkers? Not because of the fronting bunkers?
8 the worst hole on the course? Would you please explain your thoughts?
thanks
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Same question from me David...I love the 8th hole at Merion. 7 is cool as well, but I don't know that I'd prefer it to 8.
Michael Felton,
I'm going to push back on Shinnecock;
I believe 4, 6, 8, 13, 16 and 18 all offer approach opportunities from the preferred side of the fairway without going over a bunker.
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Same question from me David...I love the 8th hole at Merion. 7 is cool as well, but I don't know that I'd prefer it to 8.
Michael Felton,
I'm going to push back on Shinnecock;
I believe 4, 6, 8, 13, 16 and 18 all offer approach opportunities from the preferred side of the fairway without going over a bunker.
The OP said half the green was covered. Here is 16: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8964648,-72.4398781,96m/data=!3m1!1e3 Not sure there's half the green you can see from the fairway there. 13 it depends if you count the short one. If you do, there's nowhere in the fairway that can see more than about a yard of the green without a bunker in the way. 18 if you hit it 270 off the tee from the not very back tee, you can't see any of the green past the front bunkers. That's here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8955246,-72.4404529,136m/data=!3m1!1e3
I'll withdraw 4 and 6. 6 I was thinking from the left fairway, but if you're in the right then the bunker is not so much in the way. 8 I think is pretty narrow in between the two bunkers.
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Michael,
I didn't intend to include 16 so withdrawn...
13 and 18 both fit this question, and overall strategic golf, to a tee in my opinion.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "see the green". You use it in your objection to both. One can certainly hit a shot from the wide side of the fairway to both greens that lands 5 or 10 yards short, and dead at the center of it and be in great shape. If you're speaking of the visual obstruction...well...
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By the way, one of the coolest things I've ever seen on a golf course happened on that 13th tee.
Monday of the 2004 US Open, I bought a ticket and went out to see the guys prep for the tournament. I come up to the 13th tee and Justin Rose, Ian Poulter and two others I'm forgetting at the moment are waiting to hit their tee shots. They each had long irons or hybrids of some sort so were just targeting that left side at 230ish. Wind was into and from the right at a club to club and a half.
Rose had his 2 iron on a tee, although just barely above the turf. He hit it well, and it was low, but lifted just a little and fell just a bit to the left with the wind and then bounced left and just into the rough. After the other guys hit their shots, he drops a ball on the ground and steps on it...just enough to indent it into the ground a tiny bit. Hit this 2 iron like a rocket that the wind didn't touch. Stayed on that flat trajectory and landed in the middle of the fairway, ending up in the left corner.
:o
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Michael,
I didn't intend to include 16 so withdrawn...
13 and 18 both fit this question, and overall strategic golf, to a tee in my opinion.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "see the green". You use it in your objection to both. One can certainly hit a shot from the wide side of the fairway to both greens that lands 5 or 10 yards short, and dead at the center of it and be in great shape. If you're speaking of the visual obstruction...well...
I was thinking of them both as bunkers you have to go over to reach the green. By way of two further examples, would you consider these front bunkers? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2763367,-0.2403473,142m/data=!3m1!1e3 The one on the right obviously is. The one on the left is further away from the front of the green than the bunker on 18 at Shinnecock.
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I would call the one on the left an approach bunker, thereby disqualifying it from this question...but that's just me.
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Where does the Road Hole fit into this discussion? The pot bunker is pretty much right in front and draws a lot of water, although you could sneak a ball on the front right with a run up.
Tom,
I was also thinking about the Road Hole, though it probably isn’t what David had in mind. However, what does “draws a lot of water” mean? Do you mean tears?
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Where does the Road Hole fit into this discussion? The pot bunker is pretty much right in front and draws a lot of water, although you could sneak a ball on the front right with a run up.
Tom,
I was also thinking about the Road Hole, though it probably isn’t what David had in mind. However, what does “draws a lot of water” mean? Do you mean tears?
I figured he meant catchment area. I remember reading somewhere that while the bunker itself is only something like 4 square yards, there is a vast area from which the ball will funnel into the bunker.
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I was also thinking about the Road Hole, though it probably isn’t what David had in mind. However, what does “draws a lot of water” mean? Do you mean tears?
Tim et al,
I had thought of the road hole. It does look much more in your face from the fairway than it does in an aerial view where it looks like a flanking bunker, and the ground contours definitely accentuate that.
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Same question from me David...I love the 8th hole at Merion. 7 is cool as well, but I don't know that I'd prefer it to 8.
Jim, Ed,
I loved the green contouring at 7, I thought it was worth travelling to see. I also thought that unlike some of the other medium length par 4s at Merion, the hole has some options off the tee, in terms of line and length. I could be reading it wrong but I think to a lot of pins there is an incentive hit your tee shot up the right half of the fairway. There could also be some incentive to take driver and hit it long.
Conversely, I think the 8th is very prescriptive. For a decent player, Aim at the middle of the fariway off the tee, hit it to a distance you are comfortable pitching from (presumably with a club other than driver) and then pitch on.
The 3rd at Leongatha is on similar terrain and of similar length and I find it so much more interesting. The green does not demand a pitch and this allows for a large variety of clubs to be taken off the tee with a clear preffered line down the right to get an angle down the length of the green and approach shots ranging from 0-120y in length for decent players whilst also being very playable for average and elderly golfers. There is no reason why the designers of Merion could not have built a green based on similar principles that would have fitted in with the design principles of the course. It is much more interesting (and better) architecture than a fronting bunker that demands a pitch IMO, even though their are plenty of times I have chosen to try and play an exactiving pitch shot
8th Merion
(https://i.imgur.com/9cYE3tH.jpg)
3rd Leongatha
(https://i.imgur.com/WG1YZ8i.jpg)
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How about "Moat," the par-4 12th at PGA West Stadium?
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How about "Moat," the par-4 12th at PGA West Stadium?
It's a very cool hole, imo
Does it need the front bunker though? I actually think it detracts a bit from the hole as it turns the approach into an aerial approach to a yardage, which to some degree negates the advantage of hitting to the right side of the fairway and being able to see the green. Not that I would change it, it fits the course perfectly and there is a definite skill to trusting youur yardages on a blind shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/Gj1bEUa.jpg)
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How about "Moat," the par-4 12th at PGA West Stadium?
It's a very cool hole, imo
Does it need the front bunker though? I actually think it detracts a bit from the hole as it turns the approach into an aerial approach to a yardage, which to some degree negates the advantage of hitting to the right side of the fairway and being able to see the green. Not that I would change it, it fits the course perfectly and there is a definite skill to trusting youur yardages on a blind shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/Gj1bEUa.jpg)
Considering the hole is named "Moat" and that's where the bunker is, I bet Pete would say it needs the front bunker.
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Considering the hole is named "Moat" and that's where the bunker is, I bet Pete would say it needs the front bunker.
Sorry, i meant doesnt need the front bunker...to be a good hole. Not...to be a moat hole.
I have seen Doak use half blind feature half a dozen times without a front bunker and it works fine.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the hole and the course and I am glad you brought it up, but it a course not designed for repeat play or a wide variety of golfers and that makes it hard for it to be truly great architecture.
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I just meant because the name is moat and that's where the bunker is, I suspect Dye considered the bunker to be the defining feature of the hole, moreso than the half-blind approach.
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David
I think Tom has already mentioned Alps re: 3rd at NGLA
A couple I can think of = 7 & 8 Pine Valley