Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on September 30, 2020, 07:43:04 AM
-
Talk of Cavendish on another thread (plus Renaissance for Scottish Open only) has me thinking of highly rated courses that have changed their hole sequencing from the original design?
My favourite example of this is County Louth / Baltray that changed from Simpson’s routing in the 80’s. Original course was:
Front nine: 4,5,6,7, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3
Back nine: 11 to 18,10
What other ones? Which have been successful? Which less so?
Flipping nines less interested in.
-
I suppose Ballybunion would be a prime example. That used to start on the 6th. I recall they reinstated that playing order for the Irish Open?
-
I don't think a sequencing change due to building a new clubhouse in a different location on the property is what Ally had in mind. Adding this constraint would disqualify Ballybunion, NGLA and others. I believe he wanted examples of courses that changed the routing while leaving the infrastructure and holes in place. I'm sure that there are a lot of examples of flipping 9's, e.g. Augusta. Looking forward to hearing of other cases such as County Louth.
-
Main Course (Clyde/Squirrel) at Brookline. For 1913 US Open, it played (using current hole numbers):
1-8
11 (Himalayas)
12 (short downhill par 3)
13
9
10
14-18
important to understand this order when reading "Greatest Game".
not sure when it switched to current 1-18 order.
-
Not quite as highly rated, but the two courses at the Broadmoor are a combination of Ross original routing and RTJ routing.
Ira
-
Again not highly rated, but holes #2 and #7 at Harding Park were flipped about 20 years ago.
-
Old Town flipped 9 and 18 many years ago, and also changed the current #9 to a par 4 (from a par 5).
-
;D
Question for my Irish friends> has Portrush made the changes to the routing permanent ?
-
Augusta National. Cabot Links.
-
Medinah #3
-
Medinah #3
Not quite the same as the others, because they redesigned a few holes and that required the change of sequence.
In addition to those already mentioned, Arcadia Bluffs is one closer to home for me. I think they changed twice, and I am always confused when people talk about it because I remember the original numbering. Cabot Links is another recent example of the same thing.
-
Philadelphia Cricket Club did so when they renovated the course 10 years or so ago. The holes across the train tracks, 4 through 9 featured parallel par 5's in 4 and 7. By switching them, they also switch the two holes immediately after so 4-5-6 because 7-8-9 and 7-8-9 became 4-5-6.
I have no idea the reasoning and am not sure of my opinion. #9 was an iconic finishing (to a nine) hole and is now the 6th...while still an awesome hole, does it matter that it's 6 instead of 9? I really don't know. Current 9 (old 6) is a short, somewhat quirky par 4 that I like, but doesn't exactly leave a mark.
Huntingdon Valley rearranged its C-9 a few years ago in an effort to bring the starting hole closer to the other two nines to encourage more play. A rebuild of the current two starting holes on that nine, but otherwise the order is the same, just starting from the old 7th tee. I prefer this orientation because I like the two new holes better than the old.
-
Essex County Club. I believe the original routing was the current 1, 16-18 then 10-15, then 2-9.
The way it plays now, the back 9 around and over the hill is justifiably famous with 18 being an amazing downhill par 4 between two hillocks that was originally #4. The course now has returning nines, although the walk from 9 to 10 is somewhat long.
-
Merion- Front 9
Previous order 1-2-6-7-8-9-5-3-4
-
Did Lookout Mountain ever actually start on what's now #3? The clubhouse location was supposed to be on the overlook behind 3 tee.
-
Again not highly rated, but holes #2 and #7 at Harding Park were flipped about 20 years ago.
I'm not sure I knew that. Trying to imagine that stretch in the PGA if they played 6, 2, 8, 9 (as a par 4). Yikes! Seems much better the current way; 1-4 would be pretty easy otherwise.
-
I believe that Westmoreland in Chicago rearranged the holes at some point in the past for flow reasons.
-
I forgot to mention Yarra Yarra where my associate Brian Slawnik suggested the change to the club.
The original routing had the first hole as a long par-3 . . . not as uncommon in Melbourne as most other places . . . playing out of a little pro shop separate from the clubhouse. A few years ago, they rebuilt the clubhouse and tore down the little pro shop, and at that point the first tee was much further from the pro shop than #6 tee. In addition, the club had rebuilt holes 2 and 3 and they were generally considered the weakest stretch of the course, so it was a very unappealing start.
Brian suggested changing the starting point, so the sequence of the first six holes today is what was originally 6-5-1-2-3-4, before hooking back into the old routing from the 7th on.
-
Mach Dunes flipped their 9s fairly early on, from memory.
-
Just like ANGC
-
What other ones? Which have been successful? Which less so?
Ally, any news on whether Carne is going to reconfigure their routing to incorporate holes from Kilmore? Or is it just going to remain the back 9 from Hackett and the 9 from Kilmore to create Wild Atlantic Dunes? For some reason I thought it was going to be more interwoven than that to fix some of the awkward transitions.
-
Again not highly rated, but holes #2 and #7 at Harding Park were flipped about 20 years ago.
I'm not sure I knew that. Trying to imagine that stretch in the PGA if they played 6, 2, 8, 9 (as a par 4). Yikes! Seems much better the current way; 1-4 would be pretty easy otherwise.
Change was made after the redo. You used to walk to current #7 after #1. Which makes sense due to tee proximity.
-
What other ones? Which have been successful? Which less so?
Ally, any news on whether Carne is going to reconfigure their routing to incorporate holes from Kilmore? Or is it just going to remain the back 9 from Hackett and the 9 from Kilmore to create Wild Atlantic Dunes? For some reason I thought it was going to be more interwoven than that to fix some of the awkward transitions.
Hi Dan,
I’m glad to say that when they play the Wild Atlantic Dunes course, they do interweave the sequencing to get rid of a couple of transitions. So routing is:
Front 9: 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,5K,6K
Back 9: 7K,8K,9K,1K,2K,3K,4K,17,18
Returns to clubhouse after 12. Hope is we can rework the 1st tee complexes soon to improve logistics and transition from 9K to 1K.
-
Has Strandhill changed their ordering, or is that still in the offing?
-
Whats the change at Cabot Links?
-
Did Lookout Mountain ever actually start on what's now #3? The clubhouse location was supposed to be on the overlook behind 3 tee.
I believe that was stated at the Dixie Cup.
Which makes today's #1 hole, the 17th back then. That hole now is a longer than average par 4, but then (minus the clubhouse) was a long par 5.
Please correct if required.
-
Has Strandhill changed their ordering, or is that still in the offing?
Hi Garland,
We’ll only change that if / when they get approval for the new holes. It will go as follows:
Front 9: 6,7,14,15,13,8,12,11 extended, 10
Back 9: 1,2,3,4 extended, new, 5,16,17,18
Also cuts out a couple of awkward transitions and actually reduces green to tee walks.
-
Glen Ridge Country Club recently changed their routing so that a golfer only crosses Broad Street twice per round rather than 4x. I liked the new routing though I thought the current #2 hole was better as #18 given the outstanding setting and green complex.
-
Matt C. & Kevin R. -
Lincoln Park also changed its routing a bit, with the 2nd and 12th holes being swapped at some point in the last 30-40 years or so. Current #12 used to be #2 and #2 used to be #12.
DT
-
I can't imagine a worse change than Banff Springs moving their 1st hole to the original 5th
-
Philadelphia Country Club - relocated its clubhouse around 1960.
Current routing was originally
Front Side - 14,15,16,17,18(modified significantly)10,11,12,13
Back Side - 4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3
Not sure which combination had a better rhythm, but #3 of today was a much better finish.
1-3 was a great finish of less difficult holes (with birdie in reach on each for decent golfers).
-
Whats the change at Cabot Links?
I don't remember all of the changes but the original 1-2 were the current 9-10.
I think the routing was (using current numbering) 10-11-12-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-1-2-13-14-15-16-17-18. Everything from 13 on did not change.
See the routing below:
(http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/CabotLinks/mediafiles/l4.jpg)
-
Thanks Wayne for clarifying the Cabot Links changes....must have been done soon after opening. I first visitted 5 years ago & the hole numbering was then as it is now.
Often these numbering changes feel jarring....but i have always felt that the course flowed beautifully as it is now.
-
Arcadia Bluffs had a different sequencing when it opened. I remember reading about it in a Ron Whitten article before playing it, but the sequencing I played is the current version. Here's another article that discusses it, but I'm trying to visualize the original and am having a hard time doing so. It says the first seven were the same, but I'm thinking old 8 and 9 are current 16 and 13? So you finished the front nine down by the lake, then current 14 was the 10th, current 8-9 were 12-13, current 12 was 16, and then 17-18 are the same? So current - old:
1 - 1
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 4
5 - 5
6 - 6
7 - 7
16 - 8
13 - 9
14 - 10
15 - 11
8 - 12
9 - 13
10 - 14
11 - 15
12 - 16
17 - 17
18 - 18
Does that look right? Definitely doable, but a little weird.
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/arcadia-bluffs
-
Not a notable course, but my childhood muni did it, the year I started playing.
I recreated the original routing when I made the course for a video game. I actually decided I preferred it, and wish it hadn't changed. I suspect the reason was that the 18th green was further away from the clubhouse than the 9th, 11th, and 13th. Now it's the 9th, so you have a brutally long walk between #9 and #10. It was probably better as #18 so you could just go right to the parking lot.
I thought the original routing had better balance, as the shortest and longest par-threes were on the same nine, and the last three holes were a very strong finish.
-
The 4th at Minchinhampton Old was once the 1st.
And Welshpool have just reverted to the original Braid routing where the previous 7th is now once again the 1st.
Atb
-
Ok, I know it's not exactly what the topic calls for, but it's too good to pass up.
Ansley/Settindown Creek in Roswell, GA, which is a very good Bob Cupp design that has hosted many top amateur events as well as the Nike Tour Championship and (I think?), does not follow Cupp's original plan, though the routing has been changed. The first tee is in the middle of the original front nine, and the 18th hole was originally in the middle of the back nine, etc. (18, btw, always puzzles people that play there as sort an odd closing hole, which it was never designed to be.)
The reason? The club couldn't get a liquor permit from Cherokee County, and the site originally planned for the clubhouse was in Cherokee. The club eventually abandoned that plan, and moved the clubhouse site across the property AND across the county line into Fulton County, which did provide liquor permits, and the numbering of the holes was changed accordingly.
Unfortunate for Cupp's course, but business is business.
-
Woburn has two courses with appreciably different hole sequences than were envisaged by the architect, owing to the clubhouse being developed in an entirely different area. OK, this means that the course NEVER changed its sequence after opening, but when you're out there it is interesting to ruminate on how different it was meant to be.
A notable Scottish course that flipped its routing for a while was Letham Grange. For a while they changed to starting on the 7th hole and finishing on the 6th. It didn't find favour and was changed back.
Stonehaven has permanently changed its routing in recent years. Whereas before you played all of the clifftop holes relatively early on, they have now changed the sequence to give you a second visit to the shoreline on the back nine. I liked the change.
-
Hi Dan,
I’m glad to say that when they play the Wild Atlantic Dunes course, they do interweave the sequencing to get rid of a couple of transitions. So routing is:
Front 9: 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,5K,6K
Back 9: 7K,8K,9K,1K,2K,3K,4K,17,18
Returns to clubhouse after 12. Hope is we can rework the 1st tee complexes soon to improve logistics and transition from 9K to 1K.
Thanks, Ally. Can't wait to get back there and play it again.
I have to admit, my first round at Carne two summers ago, I was playing solo. I stood on the first tee of the Hackett 18 and literally had no idea where the first fairway was. Can't remember ever having that happen to me before.
-
Merion- Front 9
Previous order 1-2-6-7-8-9-5-3-4
Any idea when this change happened?
I thought it was so interesting to go from 2, on the perimeter of the property, to the loop of 3 - 5, then to 6 tee, which is right by 2 green. The placement of the 3rd hole is really genius and probably the key hole that makes the routing work to fit 18 holes in such a tight piece of property.
-
Main Course (Clyde/Squirrel) at Brookline. For 1913 US Open, it played (using current hole numbers):
1-8
11 (Himalayas)
12 (short downhill par 3)
13
9
10
14-18
important to understand this order when reading "Greatest Game".
not sure when it switched to current 1-18 order.
Rudo,
Was that the order the members played the course during that time or was it changed just for the tournament?
-
Thanks Wayne for clarifying the Cabot Links changes....must have been done soon after opening. I first visitted 5 years ago & the hole numbering was then as it is now.
Often these numbering changes feel jarring....but i have always felt that the course flowed beautifully as it is now.
The flow was pretty good before as well, but this probably makes more sense and brings you back to the clubhouse after nine. The refreshment shed just over the road now comes kind of early in the round after the 4th hole - I doubt that would exist if they always had the current routing.
I think the change was made around 2014-15 a year or so before Cliffs opened.
-
The change to the sequence of holes at Cavendish is something of a mystery, happening as it did in the year following construction and before the official opening. The early card from 1925 shows MacKenzie's original routing;
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50404410928_e563fb1678_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jN4MiJ)Original Card (https://flic.kr/p/2jN4MiJ) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
And shown on a modern course plan;
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50404413418_7b5308b03b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jN4N3E)MacKenzie Routing (https://flic.kr/p/2jN4N3E) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
By the time of the official opening however, the sequence in which the holes was played had been changed, and this is how the course has been played for the last 95 years.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50405271527_be11bc88fb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jN9c8D)Current Routing (https://flic.kr/p/2jN9c8D) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
There is no record of why the change was made, or whether MacKenzie was consulted or even knew about it. Dr Mac does not appear to have attended the opening ceremony in 1926, although he is recorded as having visited the course on at least one subsequent occasion and corresponded with the club on the condition of the greens. Relationships between the the Doc and the club appear to have become a little strained by the time the course was completed!
The two nines in the original sequence are rather lop-sided, and this is likely the reason it was altered. The fact that the nines no longer return to the clubhouse however, is a distinct disadvantage and goes against one of MacKenzie's basic principles of course design that he had put forward only a year or two earlier.
The club has long played a few competitions over the old routing, and most members seem to prefer it. Interestingly, some high profile visitors from local clubs played that way round recently and were unanimous that we were missing a trick by not returning to it permanently.
The initial plan next year is to instigate "MacKenzie Friday" whereby all play will be over the original routing every Friday. This will enable us to hold a nine hole qualifying competition each Friday afternoon open to both members and visitors. The current layout does not lend itself to nine hole play.
In the run-up to the club's centenary in 2025 we plan to build on our MacKenzie heritage shamelessly. There is a growing feeling that returning to Dr Mac's original routing will improve the experience for members and visitors alike.
-
Duncan,
See if you can get us one round on each routing at BUDA next year in order to instigate endless hours of analysis on which works best.
Ally
-
Duncan,
See if you can get us one round on each routing at BUDA next year in order to instigate endless hours of analysis on which works best.
Ally
That indeed is the plan!
-
Royal Melbourne Composite played the same order from the 1959 Canada Cup (the first time it was used - primarily because it involved no road crossings. That, and it's a better course than either the West or East) all the way through to the 1996 Greg Norman Classic.
It was changed for the 1998 Presidents Cup (16th hole closer to the clubhouse) and has been through too many different incarnations in the nine tournaments since.
I think the club have said they are going back to the original the next time there is a professional tournament.
Which, may be a long way off given the state of things down here.
-
The routing of Merion's front 9 in the 1916 USAm (based on current holes) was: 1-2-6-7-4-5-3-8-9. In that day, the 1st hole was in a different configuration and bent left, not right, with the green in a slightly different spot as well. Though the sequence was altered, the other eight holes played (as individuals) similar to the modern versions.
Present-day holes 10-13 were generated by a 1925 remodel of that area which obviated the need to play across Ardmore Avenue. In 1916, the 10th was an Alps-type hole played over the road. The 11th was a short par 4 ending before the creek. The 12th was a par-5 playing back over the road and involving the stream which borders today's 13th. The 1916 par-3 13th hole also encountered the stream but was in a different spot, now abandoned.
Holes 14-18 were in more or less their present-day configuration for the 1916 Am.