Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on August 28, 2020, 09:31:34 AM
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Apologies if this USGA drone video has been linked here before - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWl3FJN4ITg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWl3FJN4ITg)
Here’s a reminder from when Geoff Ogilvy won in 2006 - [size=78%]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoF0ZXeYEPE (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoF0ZXeYEPE)[/size]
Atb
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Nice...thanks for sharing Thomas.
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I am really liking the expanded and squared-off greens. It looks like many interesting pin positions have been captured. The video actually makes me want to go and play WFW, which is not necessarily a reaction I always would have had. Now I'm really looking forward to the US Open telecast.
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Well worth a listen - Gil Hanse, Geoff Ogilvy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfx86KMkBy0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfx86KMkBy0&feature=youtu.be)
Enjoy
atb
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Well worth a listen - Gil Hanse, Geoff Ogilvy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfx86KMkBy0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfx86KMkBy0&feature=youtu.be)
Enjoy
atb
Brilliant!
Ciao
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Nice drone shots and commentary.
Is it only me that finds these squared off greens jarring and artificial? Curves are much more varied and nuanced than straight lines.
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I watched the video but didn’t yet listen to the commentary by Gil. I am trusting the squared off greens were original or he wouldn’t have restored them that way. We did the same at Copake CC but the original plans showed them to be squared off. Some like the look some don’t. Kind of like square tee boxes. Some like it some don’t though the square greens do look very unnatural but were common on many classic courses. Tees you can argue are simply starting points for play and whether they are square or free form in shape it matters less. Square greens and free form bunkers, however, will create some debate. How well would they look/fit at Sand Hills for example?
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Nice drone shots and commentary.
Is it only me that finds these squared off greens jarring and artificial? Curves are much more varied and nuanced than straight lines.
I like the squared greens! Tee to green the course looks rather blah, like tons of US parkland courses, but those greens look very special.
Ciao
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These short videos on the restoration process are worth watching as well - a restoration that must have cost a few $$$$ to say the least -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gk0xkNz4aA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gk0xkNz4aA)
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awtat8j1YM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awtat8j1YM)
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vgfqSoSo0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vgfqSoSo0)
Enjoy
atb
PS - here taken from one of the above USGA videos are four old b&w photos of Winged Foot with some colour now added to them -
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egvx7r9WoAAOb0b?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egvx7r-WAAQhrY4?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egvx7r_WsAUN49F?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egvx7r9WkAAgQLp?format=jpg&name=small)
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I wouldn't get too caught up on the squared look of the greens based on drone footage. Given their raised nature, severe pitch, false fronts and tight bunkering, they do not appear square in my opinion from ground level except for the 4th hole now that the bunkers have been returned to the sides. Reminds of when TD posted the pin sheet at Chicago Golf on IG once and remarked how he never realized how unique the green shapes are there. The aerial view vs the ground view can be quite different in appearance.
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Played it once before the previous Open and found the greens artificial and inaccessible particularly from high rough.
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Is it only me that finds these squared off greens jarring and artificial? Curves are much more varied and nuanced than straight lines.
I love the look.
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I wouldn't get too caught up on the squared look of the greens based on drone footage. Given their raised nature, severe pitch, false fronts and tight bunkering, they do not appear square in my opinion from ground level except for the 4th hole now that the bunkers have been returned to the sides. Reminds of when TD posted the pin sheet at Chicago Golf on IG once and remarked how he never realized how unique the green shapes are there. The aerial view vs the ground view can be quite different in appearance.
Good to know - if I'm ever lucky enough to have the chance to play there I won't let it put me off :)
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After Olympia Fields, any bets on how close the USGA will set it up to 1974 Massacre conditions?
Ira
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Very few pros wouldn't take even par and sit in the clubhouse and watch :) These guys are really really good but Winged Foot is really really hard (at least it can be if they want it to be). Played there quite a few times but in fairness not since the renovation.
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A snippet from 2006 US Open winner at Winged Foot Geoff Ogilvy.
Food for thought?
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhuHxPxXgAUwL8z?format=jpg&name=medium)
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Played it once before the previous Open and found the greens artificial and inaccessible particularly from high rough.
Mayday,
Yes, let's judge courses based on dated information :)
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/rolling-green-golf-club/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/rolling-green-golf-club/)
Thomas,
Come on, it is a "Winged" foot via the Founders/Members of the NY Athletic Club:
The NYAC's commitment to athletic excellence began with its founding in 1868 and continues, as steadfast as ever, to this day. The NYAC's athletes are its most visible ambassadors, all committed to the vision of their late teammate, Olympic legend Al Oerter, who stated, "Great things are expected of you when you wear the winged foot."
Congrats to not-frequent poster Neil Regan. It is a Committee up there at Winged Foot Golf Club, but Neil puts in lots of work to show the history of the course, the club, and its championships to insiders and outsiders.
The weather looks great, and hopefully we will see a great US Open this week.
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Tee to green the course looks rather blah, like tons of US parkland courses, but those greens look very special.
Ciao
Glad this was raised. I've never been there so I'm sure I'm missing something, but at least holding the green contours aside (which look incredible, and clearly are the star of the course, WFW looks not all that different from many courses GCA aficionados might dismiss as lacking strategy.
Tee-to-green, is WFW a "Dark Ages" golf course?
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Would Winged Foot be better (as per those that "rate") were the course maintained differently? And since it was the subject of a recent well received restoration could the course have been made better had the project focused more on fairway width and rough height rather than restoring the original green surfaces through expansion?
Or should it be maintained much like Bethpage? And if so I would think it much more a "crime" for WFW to be so penal in light of the fabulous greens which don't exist at Bethpage.
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I noticed only one green where the rear sloped to the back so that shots more likely to run over. Is that typical of Tillinghast?
Ira
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After Olympia Fields, any bets on how close the USGA will set it up to 1974 Massacre conditions?
Ira
Ira good question to pose. I haven't seen WFW since the renovation, but before that trees were a factor much like OF or similar parkland courses. The real difference is the severity of the greens at WFW, so in the same conditions of firm and fast I would guess WFW would play 2-3 shots more difficult than OF for the pros. It wouldn't be fair to compare the scores of the BMW to the US Open this year as OF hasn't really been touched significantly since Rees Jones before the 2003 open. Not to mention the OF setup, while difficult could have been pushed even more. I'm not saying they should have, but I'm sure Mike Davis would have some ridiculous ideas for that. Golfers love a car crash so as much as we are purists here, the normal golf fan wants them to shoot over par and the higher the better for the US Open draws people to watch; not -30.
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A snippet from 2006 US Open winner at Winged Foot Geoff Ogilvy.
Food for thought?
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhuHxPxXgAUwL8z?format=jpg&name=medium)
Hilarious that Geoff thinks he actually won that Tournament.
Phil handed it to him on a silver platter when he chose to play aggressive when he only needed a bogey on the 72nd hole to win.
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A snippet from 2006 US Open winner at Winged Foot Geoff Ogilvy.
Food for thought?
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhuHxPxXgAUwL8z?format=jpg&name=medium)
Hilarious that Geoff thinks he actually won that Tournament.
Phil handed it to him on a silver platter when he chose to play aggressive when he only needed a bogey on the 72nd hole to win.
With Monty also making the worst club switch of his career going with 7i last minute.
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Hilarious that Geoff thinks he actually won that Tournament.
That's a pretty odd thing to say. Ogilvy played the course in the fewest strokes over 72 holes. Of course he won the tournament. Why diminish the accomplishment?
The 72nd hole counts the same as the first and every hole in between. Switch out a par Mickelson made early on Sunday for a double and the double on 18 for a par and the result would have been the exact same.
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A short video from WF you may wish to watch - the voice is that of caddy Billy Foster -
https://twitter.com/i/status/1305904007890776068
Make of it what you will.
atb
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love the greens and catching slopes with lots of false fronts
the rectangles are just classic! love it
not a fan of the deep deep rough monotony of typical parkland golf, but the subtleties on the ground are fantastic
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Hilarious that Geoff thinks he actually won that Tournament.
That's a pretty odd thing to say. Ogilvy played the course in the fewest strokes over 72 holes. Of course he won the tournament. Why diminish the accomplishment?
The 72nd hole counts the same as the first and every hole in between. Switch out a par Mickelson made early on Sunday for a double and the double on 18 for a par and the result would have been the exact same.
Gotta love an 18 handicap hating on a US Open champ.
I'm probably as unfamiliar with Winged Foot as any of the US Open "rota" courses, but I'm very excited to get a little more familiar with it. There's nothing rarer in golf right now than a punishing parkland course with a traditional presentation that still unanimously stands among the top 50 courses in the world.
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Yes the monotony of Parkland Golf Winged Foot style for the majority of club golfers.
For many years every Westchester club "followed" Winged Foot and based it's tree management and maintenance processes on Winged Foot the "best" course in the area. With the advent of the "restoration" movement it appeared the clubs were moving away from the cookie cutter copy cat style but it seems we are heading right back that way.
What are the implications of this one week for Quaker Ridge and Fenway and Sleepy Hollow who have the same restoration (Hanse) crew? Did Gil teach them anything about each property being unique and the "need" to have it's own identity?
Check back in a few years but the initial reports are less than encouraging especially with MID AM at SHCC and Fenway where I am sure they will try to have "healthy rough" and "tough but fair". Even better, perhaps the clubs can compete against each other to achieve a +5!!!
Count me out on all things USGA.
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Yes the monotony of Parkland Golf Winged Foot style for the majority of club golfers.
For many years every Westchester club "followed" Winged Foot and based it's tree management and maintenance processes on Winged Foot the "best" course in the area. With the advent of the "restoration" movement it appeared the clubs were moving away from the cookie cutter copy cat style but it seems we are heading right back that way.
What are the implications of this one week for Quaker Ridge and Fenway and Sleepy Hollow who have the same restoration (Hanse) crew? Did Gil teach them anything about each property being unique and the "need" to have it's own identity?
Check back in a few years but the initial reports are less than encouraging especially with MID AM at SHCC and Fenway where I am sure they will try to have "healthy rough" and "tough but fair". Even better, perhaps the clubs can compete against each other to achieve a +5!!!
Count me out on all things USGA.
Corey is absolutely correct on his Westchester perspective (only thing I can seem to agree with him theses days! ;) ). The last few years have seen a parallel path of both "opening up the courses," as well as "differentiation of presentation,"...each focused on emphasizing the unique architecture of each venue. There is little left of the claustrophobia that dominated the county's courses over the last 1/2 a century.
QR and Fenway, and Wykagyl now look and play much truer to their original intent. They are vastly more enjoyable. Same can be said for Whippoorwill Century and Siwanoy. Sleepy Hollow, IMO, is in a class by itself. While still technically a Parkland-style layout, it's property and large-scale are finally revealed and embraced.
Gil's work throughout deserves ample credit, but equally so are the efforts of a handful of concerned members who often had to fight their club's stasis to push to achieve these improvements. Corey and Neil were amongst them. Winged Foot, the royalty of Westchester remains the leader in the clubhouse, but the field is close on their heels. We local golfing plebes are a happy lot these days.
What is especially interesting about this Open is the amount of relative autonomy they've ceded to the cigar-chomping Steve Rabideau. This guy is a gem. He's a fully-investing walking human- humidor who has prepped the place for over two years in anticipation of this event. While the blue bloods of Far Hills have the final say, they've finally gotten the message that the "local talent is wiser than the supposed experts." Steve and his crew have the place totally dialed and the fall weather up this way has been practically perfect. Let's hope none of the outsiders mess too much with this perfection!
PS... Any wind above 10mph will require Kleenex tissue boxes off the side of every tee and green....maybe even crocodile-sized. It'll be sooooo much fun!
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so much better on TV without all the spectators and additional infrastructure
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A Fried Egg podcast about Winged Foot 1974 including comments from winner Hale Irwin - https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/fried-egg-stories-episode-10-the-test-hale-irwin-at-winged-foot/ (https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/fried-egg-stories-episode-10-the-test-hale-irwin-at-winged-foot/) - worth a listen.
I wonder if whoever wins the US Open this week, ie 2020, were given the clubs and balls Hale Irwin used to win in 1974 what his gross score would be in comparison to what he shoots with modern equipment in winning this week?
Same with Fuzzy’s 1984 equipment and Geoff Ogilvy’s 2006 as well. Four round gross score comparisons.
Atb
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I noticed only one green where the rear sloped to the back so that shots more likely to run over. Is that typical of Tillinghast?
Ira
It is at WFW... only 6 and 4 can be said to "run front to back"... the East has some differing variety, but it too is predominantly a back to front sloped course in terms of greens.