Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Kevin Pallier on August 24, 2020, 11:39:45 PM
-
There's the old "out-n-back" routing as well as the classic "9th and 18th" returns.
What good courses that you know return to the clubhouse multiple times (ie: > 2)?
By that - I mean come within 100 yards or so.
-
Shinnecock Hills returns 3x = 9th, 13th amd 18th
-
Oakmont returns 4x I believe = 9,11,14,18
-
Old Town Club returns 3 times (Holes 3, 9, and 18).
-
There's the old "out-n-back" routing as well as the classic "9th and 18th" returns.
What good courses that you know return to the clubhouse multiple times (ie: > 2)?
By that - I mean come within 100 yards or so.
Pymble GC in northern Sydney has as good an arrangement as you could ask for to this end -- the 1st, 7th and 13th tees are clubhouse-adjacent.
That allows a three-tee start on busy competition days and ensures that what Pymble GC loses in golf architecture (hilly, tree farm, too-small site), it makes up for in post-round clubhouse atmosphere with 12 players finishing their round every 10 minutes.
-
Blackwolf Run River returns to the clubhouse three times, but interestingly not after the 9th. It comes back after the 3rd, 14th, and 18th.
-
Rolling Green (Flynn) has its 2nd
3rd, 9th, 14th, and 18th near the clubhouse.
Warren (C&C) has its 6th, 9th, 15th, and 18th near the clubhouse.
EDIT: I've been away from RG too long.
-
Courses that come back to the Clubhouse too often have downsides as well.
Folks jumping-in on another tee instead of at the 1st would be one. I've seen a few on-course and in the bar shouting, agro etc sessions over this over the years.
And when there are several holes near the Clubhouse there are early morning issues for the greenkeeping team as it takes much longer to prep the course when early morning players jump-in early from numerous tees ... and then what happens when the early morning jumpers-in come round to the 1st tee ....
atb
-
Flempton - a nine holer with 3 x 3 hole loops that come back to a tiny quaint clubhouse - is a hidden gem in Suffolk 10 miles away from Mildenhall that Tony Muldoon and I played last year.
-
Most courses on really compact sites have 3 or more greens near to the clubhouse. It takes a bit of skill to make these routings feel like adventures.
Case in point is Strandhill with the 5th, 10th, 12th, 15th and 18th all coming very close to the clubhouse. But the land is so varied that the course still feels like you don’t know what is coming next.
Surely a course like Merion (compact site) also has 3 or more near the clubhouse?
-
Pine Valley, 4th green/5th tee is close enough to head to the bar after 4, and come back out.
Algonquin Golf Club (St. Louis); 2nd green & 16th tee, each very close to clubhouse.
St. Louis C.C.; 4th green, 13th Green & 15th green each also very close to clubhouse.
Never had any issues at Algonquin with people jumping onto 3rd tee or 16th tee.
-
Tara Iti has 5, 7, 9, and 18 greens all in close proximity. I was worried it wouldn't work if the clubhouse got too big, but it turned out perfect.
Riviera has 2, 9, and 18. For Merion, 13 green is close, but 10 green (the other close one) is across the street.
I don't believe too many top 100 courses will have this feature though. It's rare for a topo feature you want to use multiple times, to coincide with an ideal location for the clubhouse. The two things kind of compete with each other.
-
Did the ODGS route near the clubhouse for match play reasons such as the 15th or 16th for completed matches, or rhetoric 2nd for extra hole matches shortening the walks in?
-
Oak Hill East. 9,13,18
-
Royal Adelaide 3rd tee is closer to the clubhouse than the 1st tee. 5th and 14th tees not far away also
-
I would say you need 4+ greens close to the clubhouse to be unique. I can think of many with 3.
Saucon Valley Old -Herbert Strong #2,9,12,18
Reading Country Club- Alex Findlay #6, 9, 16, 18
-
Rockville Links passes the clubhouse after #4, and there is a "two-thirds way house" after #12, also within reach with a slight detour along #15 in an emergency.
-
It’s a while since I’ve been there but I’ll throw in Rye - 9,18 and from memory the house is not far off the back left of the 5th green. I think once or twice our group played the 5 hole loop before early lunch then full round.
-
The subject of Ran's most recent interview (The Bev) returns to the "clubhouse" four times. 7 & 9 are both located north of 87th street, but both return to the pro shop. 15 & 18 are both located close to the clubhouse south of 87th street. The ability to complete a two or three (or six of seven) hole loop when you need it to finish a match (or just need more golf) is fun.
-
Mimosa Hills
Within 100 yards: 3, 9, 13, 18
Within 200 yards: add 5 and 12
-
Mid-Pines - #5 tee is close to the clubhouse.
Finley (UNC-Chapel Hill's course) - you hike from the 11th green past the clubhouse to the 12th tee
-
Montauk Downs goes back to the clubhouse at #3 -- in fact #3 green is probably closer to the clubhouse than 9 and 18.
The walk from #3 to #4 tee takes you through the driving range.
-
I recall The Renaissance Club having several holes that returned near the clubhouse from watching The Scottish Open last year...
-
I recall The Renaissance Club having several holes that returned near the clubhouse from watching The Scottish Open last year...
It does! Originally, the 3rd, 5th, and greens all came back to the clubhouse [in addition to the 18th], and the 15th was pretty close. That was deliberate so that if we were able to build new holes out by the Firth someday, we would have an easy way to throw out either two holes [4-5] or three holes [1-2-3] from the routing to fit in the new loop.
But even though we weren't given permission for three holes of equal length out by the Firth, the client wanted to remove the original loop of 1-2-3, because they were further back in the trees and less "linksy". So the new plan starts out with old 4-5 getting you back to the clubhouse at the 2nd green, again at the 5th [former 8th], and again at a new 15th hole that's closer to the clubhouse than before, plus the 18th.
Then they renumber everything for the Scottish Open, and it's impossible to keep the numbers straight! :D
-
I recall The Renaissance Club having several holes that returned near the clubhouse from watching The Scottish Open last year...
It does! Originally, the 3rd, 5th, and greens all came back to the clubhouse [in addition to the 18th], and the 15th was pretty close. That was deliberate so that if we were able to build new holes out by the Firth someday, we would have an easy way to throw out either two holes [4-5] or three holes [1-2-3] from the routing to fit in the new loop.
But even though we weren't given permission for three holes of equal length out by the Firth, the client wanted to remove the original loop of 1-2-3, because they were further back in the trees and less "linksy". So the new plan starts out with old 4-5 getting you back to the clubhouse at the 2nd green, again at the 5th [former 8th], and again at a new 15th hole that's closer to the clubhouse than before, plus the 18th.
Then they renumber everything for the Scottish Open, and it's impossible to keep the numbers straight! :D
Having five easy starting points and their resulting boozer loops is one of the most impressive aspects of RC routing.
Ciao
-
Oakmont returns 4x I believe = 9,11,14,18
Rather impressive given the clubhouse is located in the corner of the property.
-
My home course returns to the clubhouse on 9, 13, 15, 18 and one can watch play on 6 holes from terrace.
-
Sharon Woods, hole 6 returns to the clubhouse.
-
Pinehurst #8 has four holes that go to the clubhouse: #3, #9, #16, and #18.
-
Pymble GC in northern Sydney has as good an arrangement as you could ask for to this end -- the 1st, 7th and 13th tees are clubhouse-adjacent.
That allows a three-tee start on busy competition days and ensures that what Pymble GC loses in golf architecture (hilly, tree farm, too-small site), it makes up for in post-round clubhouse atmosphere with 12 players finishing their round every 10 minutes.
Scott
Pymble is an interesting example. It returns 5x at the 2, 6, 9, 12 and 18th.
-
Yarra Yarra is a poster child for this feature. 6 tee starts are the norm in winter time. Using the post-reno numbering , groups tee off from 1, 3, 8, 10, 14 (a bit of a hike) & 17.
For all the reasons already mentioned this provides all sorts of opportunities for evening mini-loops.
-
Cal Club. 2 is parallel to 1, although 3 tee is not near the clubhouse. Then 11 is parallel to 10, with 12 tee immediately adjacent to the back porch of the clubhouse.
Olympic Lake has four greens close to the clubhouse without returning nines. That has to be a bit unusual. The holes are 2, 7, 8, and of course 18.
And I remember reading about Nicklaus doing this at Glen Abbey for spectator purposes—6 greens within ~150 yards of the clubhouse.
-
.
-
I reckon architects just “talk up the story” once the course is routed if they have a few greens located near to the clubhouse.
I can get Tom’s story about The Renaissance Club though he was always going to have a few holes near to that clubhouse location. I can also get Jack’s consideration for grandstands.
But generally speaking, it is not high on an architect’s routing considerations and compromises to ensure 3 or more greens near the clubhouse... Trying for returning nines can often detrimentally affect a routing significantly. You don’t go out of your way to try and get a third green there. It just happens dependent on site... then you make up a story and call it a “beer loop” or whatever catches people’s imagination.
-
Ally
I understand what you are saying. However, don't you think having at least a few if not more starting points for a private club has benefits? To some degree the same could be said for including the house as a true 19th near the 1st tee and 18th green. I spose it comes down to the perceived value of such things. I have always placed high importance on these elements of a routing because of access to the course. While not always possible or optimal, I think both are elements very worthy of archie consideration.
Ciao
-
See reply 7 Sean.
Atb
-
See reply 7 Sean.
Atb
There are always issues with golfers no matter what. The actions of a few don't outweigh the benefits for many.
Ciao
-
Ally
I understand what you are saying. However, don't you think having at least a few if not more starting points for a private club has benefits? To some degree the same could be said for including the house as a true 19th near the 1st tee and 18th green. I spose it comes down to the perceived value of such things. I have always placed high importance on these elements of a routing because of access to the course. While not always possible or optimal, I think both are elements very worthy of archie consideration.
Ciao
For what it’s worth, Sean, I am closer to your sense of things. I really do like activity around the clubhouse and think connecting 1st tee and 18th green to the house is very important. After that it comes down to compromises:
- Is returning nines so important to the way the club will operate that it is worth considering to the detriment of the course? Is it a non-negotiable constraint?
- Does having a third starting point compromise the routing? Is the compromise bigger than the small added bonus of having a third starting point?
- Does a third starting point lessen the sense of adventure? (See above)
- Does the third starting point cause confusion / flow issues with the course? (See above)
- Etc... Etc..
Every architect will have his own subconscious or conscious decisions and compromises to make with every routing. There are loads of them. The importance of each is what makes us all different..... I just reckon that providing a third starting point is pretty low down on most architect’s list of priorities.
-
It will be interesting to see what develops. For US public courses returning 9s is critical for income as 9 hole play has always been popular. I am sensing that more private GB&I clubs are offering 9 hole rates. If this trend continues having two starting points could be a valuable source of income. I prefer loops of 4/5/6 and 14/13/12, but I understand that 9 holes may be more commercially viable.
Ciao
-
It will be interesting to see what develops. For US public courses returning 9s is critical for income as 9 hole play has always been popular. I am sensing that more private GB&I clubs are offering 9 hole rates. If this trend continues having two starting points could be a valuable source of income. I prefer loops of 4/5/6 and 14/13/12, but I understand that 9 holes may be more commercially viable.
Ciao
The new Wild Atlantic Dunes course at Carne returns at the 12th and the 18th... so of course, you can market the idea that there is a 6 hole loop, 9 hole loop (Hackett front nine), 12 hole loop, 15 hole loop, 18 hole loop, 21 hole loop etc....
But none of this was considered of primary importance at routing stage... It just becomes a nice story afterwards.
-
That's what I am saying. Given the need to drive income, clubs which do have multiple access points may be at a great advantage...so maybe archies should pay attention to this. I am sure this is the case for US public courses...for good reasons. It's dog eat dog for course survival!
Ciao
-
Sean, if the club sees it as important and believes it can help their business, then the architect will also see it as important.
That is what a brief is.
All other things equal, it is not that important a consideration in routing a course.
-
Yarra Yarra is a poster child for this feature. 6 tee starts are the norm in winter time. Using the post-reno numbering , groups tee off from 1, 3, 8, 10, 14 (a bit of a hike) & 17.
D'oh! I should have thought of that one. That would be Sean's perfect course: clubhouse smack in the middle of the box, golf holes all around. The setup does lead to having a lot of parallel holes, though.
Australia seems so far away now . . .
-
See reply 7 Sean.
Atb
There are always issues with golfers no matter what. The actions of a few don't outweigh the benefits for many.
Ciao
Depends on who the ‘many’ are. And the trade-off between potential income generation and cost increases and fractious inter-player relationships.
Atb
-
Brooklawn returns to the clubhouse at 11, 13, 16, and 18. Therefore there are tees 1,12,14, and 17 right at the clubhouse porch.
Interestingly, the course routing was done in 1911, the clubhouse moved from the bottom of a hill to the top in 1916, with the course already there. Tillinghast moved a couple things in 1929, but the busy scene around all those tees and greens remains one of the best parts of the club. Watching golf, heckling your friends, or just playing various late day loops is quite fun.....including a post cocktail 3 club barefoot scramble as the sun sets!
-
That's what I am saying. Given the need to drive income, clubs which do have multiple access points may be at a great advantage...so maybe archies should pay attention to this. I am sure this is the case for US public courses...for good reasons. It's dog eat dog for course survival!
Ciao
Aside from choosing 9 holes or 18 holes not many public courses in the U.S. offer an opportunity for players to play smaller loops. Maybe in rural areas but certainly not in metro areas with busy tee sheets. This is primarily a luxury of the private course player.
-
At Essex County in NJ, holes 3, 5, 9, 12, and 18 return to the clubhouse.
-
That's what I am saying. Given the need to drive income, clubs which do have multiple access points may be at a great advantage...so maybe archies should pay attention to this. I am sure this is the case for US public courses...for good reasons. It's dog eat dog for course survival!
Ciao
Aside from choosing 9 holes or 18 holes not many public courses in the U.S. offer an opportunity for players to play smaller loops. Maybe in rural areas but certainly not in metro areas with busy tee sheets. This is primarily a luxury of the private course player.
Yep, I stated that earlier.
Ally
I take your point.
Ciao
-
I grew up playing a course where #5, #9, #11 and #18 all returned. #9 was actually a little further away than the other three and wasn't entirely visible from the clubhouse.
Apparently the hole order changed once in the 70s and again in the 80s and at least three of those holes were all played as #18 at one point.
-
Clovernook is partially boosted by its clubhouse/parking lot/pro shop sprawling a bit, but it might be the winner here:
* 2 takes you right back to the pro shop/clubhouse/parking lot
* 5 finishes 100 yards from the pro shop. The late Bob Harrison, longtime head pro, always talked about how he wanted to buy the house at the northwest border of the property if it ever came up for sale, and he'd just play his way into work every day. 6 is just a little par 3 that doesn't take you much further away if you want to tack on one more hole.
* 9 finishes 60 feet from the pro shop.
* 12 finishes 70 yards from the main parking lot, just over 100 yards from the main clubhouse entrance, and 100 feet from the overflow lot.
* 16 finishes 10 feet from the main parking lot, and less than 100 yards from the clubhouse main entrance.
* 18 finishes at the back patio of the clubhouse.
So, that's 7 different holes that work just fine as the last one of your round.
It probably also helps that the driving range is at the far south edge of the property, 450 or so yards from the clubhouse/parking lot/pro shop. That frees up a lot of space near the compound in the central part of the property.