Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on August 06, 2020, 07:29:29 PM
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Here are the holes nominated from Tom’s thread that are in Europe. What others do we have to help choose our European 18?
Castle Stuart 3, 11, 18 - Hanse
Kingsbarns 4, 6, 12 & 15 - Phillips
Portsalon 2 - Ruddy
Carne 17 - Hackett
Balmedie 3, 13 & 17 - Hawtree
Craighead 10 - Hanse
Renaissance 8 - Doak
Waterville 11 & 17 - Hackett
Portstewart 4 - Findlay / Giffin
Cruit Island 4 & 6 - Doherty
Ballybunion Cashen 15th - RTJ
Carne Kilmore 7 & 8 - McIntosh
Burnham & Berrow Channel 8th - Hawtree
Lofoten Links 2, 14 & 16 - Turner
Fohr Blue 3 - Althaus
Herzogswalde 7 - Althaus
Askernish 7 & 12 - Irvine et al
Loch Lomond 14 - Weiskopff / Morrish
Ardfin 9 - Harrison
Machrihanish Dunes 10 - Kidd
JCB 1 & 18 - Hiseman
Alands Castle 9 - Spogard
West Cliffs 7 - Cynthia Dye
Others coming from this thread:
St.Emilion 8 - Doak
Durness 8 or 9
Close House 3 or 11 - McPherson
Valdres 2 - Turner
Tralee 13 - Palmer
Enniscrone 16 - Steel / Ebert
Donegal 8 - Hackett
Doonbeg 1 & 18 - Norman
Praia D’el Rey 4 - Robinson
The European 12 - Ruddy
Westport 15 - Fred W Hawtree
Covesea 7
Castlerock Bann 2,3 & 9 - Pennink + local
Oitavos Dunes 11 - Hills
Brauterholt 4
Bearwood Lakes 8 - Hawtree
Remedy Oak 16 - Jacobs
Woburn Dukes 16 - Charles Lawrie
Castle Course 17 - Kidd
Sand Valley 12 - Tilander / Ristola
Lough Erne 10 - Faldo
Rastenmoos 4
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Goodwood 16 was nominated twice as an Ebert hole but that was originally a Braid course that was first renovated by Swan about 14 years ago. Surely it isn’t a completely new hole?
That said, M&E have designed enough new holes elsewhere that there must be one or two up for consideration? What about one at Skibo? I’ll go with the 16th at Enniscrone (Steel / Ebert) because for a Par-5 by the sea, it makes you think for the second shot.
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I’d add a couple by Jeremy Turner. Both in Norway
Par 4 16th at Lofoten Links
Par 4 2nd at Valdres Golf Club
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Ally: I'm pretty sure that the Goodwood course nominated in the thread is in Canada, outside Toronto.
Most of the courses I've seen on the Continent are pre-1970, so I'm not much help here. I would guess Thracian Cliffs should have a candidate.
Not many posters have played St Emilion - I would think the 8th or 15th holes the most likely candidates there, though I am personally fondest of the 13th.
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Not many posters have played St Emilion - I would think the 8th or 15th holes the most likely candidates there, though I am personally fondest of the 13th.
I have played it and liked a lot of holes. If forced to pick one, I would go with the par 4 8th. Awesome hole.
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Ally: I'm pretty sure that the Goodwood course nominated in the thread is in Canada, outside Toronto.
That would be true. The village of Goodwood is also the setting for the Netflix show Schitt's Creek.
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8 and 9 at Durness are pretty good
Tralee ? 13?
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Can I nominate Close House 3 and 11? MacPherson
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Thanks for the clarification on Goodwood, Tom.
I’ll add the other nominations to the first post.
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Trump Doonbeg 1 & 18
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Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???
atb
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Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???
atb
Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.
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I’d add a couple by Jeremy Turner. Both in Norway
Par 4 16th at Lofoten Links
Par 4 2nd at Valdres Golf Club
I'd nominate the fourteenth at Lofoten, a truly outstanding hole. I like the sixteenth too, but 14 is the best hole on the course.
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Once we get a list, I’ll start knocking out holes if they are based more on visuals than actual golfing variations / strategies. There’s definitely a few on this list that offer the former without much of the latter.
I will add two more though:
The 8th at Donegal (Hackett) is my favourite Par-5 in Ireland. Although the 15th at Westport (an outstanding hole on a less than great course) could be even better.
Looking at a few rankings, we have the following excellent courses with no representation. Any standout holes?
Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Ballyliffin (both courses)
Connemara
Oitavos Dunes
Praia d’el Rey
Valderrama
Les Bordes
Monte Rei
Finca Cortesin
Troia
Bundersand Sylt
Dumbarnie
St Andrews Castle
Bernadus
Thracian Cliffs
Carya
The Scandinavian
Sand Valley
Penati
Stippleberg
De Swinkelsche
European Club
2 holes at Portrush
Queenwood
Machrie (new holes)
Adare Manor
Old Head
Bear wood Lakes
Remedy Oak
Archerfield
Medoc
etc... etc...
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I'd go 12th at European Club. 124 yard long green.
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The 4th at Praia del Rey (Cabel Robinson) near Obidos in Portugal. Fantastic short four slightly uphill to a benched green.
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There must be a couple worth nomination at Palmares but I get confused by the numbering.
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Although a West Course at Saunton existed prior to 1939, it was trashed during WW2 and wasn’t brought back to life and re-opened until the mid-1970’s, which is within the 50 yrs for this thread. There are some quality holes on the West too, 7 and 13 in particular.
Atb
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Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???
atb
Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.
I tend to agree, just raising it for clarification purposes.
The new 7th and 8th at Westward Ho would be other examples and they don’t seem play through a previously used corridor.
I’d add the 9th at Burnham & Berrows Channel Course. An evil, but delightful, hole.
Atb
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It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.
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Although a West Course at Saunton existed prior to 1939, it was trashed during WW2 and wasn’t brought back to life and re-opened until the mid-1970’s, which is within the 50 yrs for this thread. There are some quality holes on the West too, 7 and 13 in particular.
Atb
The West always gets skipped as a modern design.
Castle Course has 10, 14 and 17.
7 Formby.
2, 3 and 9 Castlerock Bann.
I think the back 9 of Seahouses was done in the 70s. If so, 15 and 16.
Ciao
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I think there’s more at JCB worthy than the 18th. The 1st, 11th and 16th are all worthy of a mention with a ton of options on each.
In terms of the others I’d add:
Oitavos Dunes 11th
Bearwood Lakes 8th
Remedy Oak 16th
Woburn Dukes 13th
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It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.
God no, it’s a terrible hole. How on earth do you make a 600 yard hole with twenty bunkers look puny? Answer, you put the tee about a mile in the air. The seventeenth is by a distance the best hold on that course imo
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I think there’s more at JCB worthy than the 18th. The 1st, 11th and 16th are all worthy of a mention with a ton of options on each.
I don’t disagree, but we are only allowed one hole per architect aren’t we?
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Rules of this thread are as many holes per architect as you wish...
However, I do ask people to be a little bit choosy: If the 2nd 3rd & 9th holes on the Bann course at Castlerock are all in with a chance of getting chosen in the best 18 modern holes in Europe, then what have we been doing for the last 50 years?
I’ll get a small committee together to choose the final 18.
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I'd nominate the 4th at Brautarholt (Iceland). Short par 4, spectacular setting, great green, and if you miss the green long, your ball is halfway to Greenland by the time you get there.
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Rules of this thread are as many holes per architect as you wish...
However, I do ask people to be a little bit choosy: If the 2nd 3rd & 9th holes on the Bann course at Castlerock are all in with a chance of getting chosen in the best 18 modern holes in Europe, then what have we been doing for the last 50 years?
I’ll get a small committee together to choose the final 18.
Just adding my twopence. I like very short 1 shotters. I have never seen a short hole like the 9th. The 2nd is a very cool risk reward hole with huge temptation. The Bann isn't your thing and that's OK.
7 and 17 at Trump Aberdeen are excellent.
Ciao
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One aspect worth considering is equipment. It’s essentially during the last 20 of the 50 yrs quoted that the ball/Driver have gone awry. Many of the holes/courses mentioned herein were laid out during the balata, persimmon and blades era.
Not sure when The Bann, which Sean mentions above and of which I’m also a big fan, was built but it would be wonderful with balata, persimmon and blades whereas some of the more modern holes and courses might be overly difficult unless played with modern era equipment.
Atb
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It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.
God no, it’s a terrible hole. How on earth do you make a 600 yard hole with twenty bunkers look puny? Answer, you put the tee about a mile in the air. The seventeenth is by a distance the best hold on that course imo
Like I said it's been several years for me since being there.
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Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???
atb
Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.
Ally
I think you're being a bit harsh, at least with regards the Dornoch hole. It effectively is a new hole corridor albeit one that sits adjacent to the old one. Whether it's any good or not is another question.
Niall
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There must be a couple worth nomination at Palmares but I get confused by the numbering.
+1
from what I recall most of the best golf is concentrated in one of the nines but can't recall which.
Niall
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It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.
God no, it’s a terrible hole. How on earth do you make a 600 yard hole with twenty bunkers look puny? Answer, you put the tee about a mile in the air. The seventeenth is by a distance the best hold on that course imo
Bill
I have to agree with Adam, 18th is perhaps the worst hole on the course IMHO with the only other contender for that title being the 10th (?) which is the only with the split fairway off the tee playing through a gap in the dunes to a tiered green surrounded by dunes. Totally forced and very awkward.
That said there were more than a few holes I liked such as the par 3's and a couple of par 4's but no so much that I can be bothered to dig out the strokesaver to check what hole numbers they were.
Niall
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Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???
atb
Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.
Ally
I think you're being a bit harsh, at least with regards the Dornoch hole. It effectively is a new hole corridor albeit one that sits adjacent to the old one. Whether it's any good or not is another question.
Niall
It's Ally's party, but I would tend to agree with Niall and Thomas that although I haven't seen it myself yet, the entire hole is new. New tee, fairway and green. Other than it being hole #7 and still a par 4 everything else has changed.
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Ally
Much to my surprise I've played quite a few of the courses you listed in your OP and indeed I think I even nominated one of the holes. In some respects it's easier to pick out the ones I don't agree with on that list and in that respect the 9th at Durness and the 18th at Castle Stuart jump out at me.
Durness is a short to mid iron to a blah green. The carry isn't long and there is plenty of clearance on the other side so apart from being very photogenic it is not that much of a hole (for full disclosure I dubbed three balls off the tee down on to the rocks. Also for full disclosure, being a true Scot, I climbed down to retrieve the balls). I did enjoy the course though but perhaps more for its character rather than any great architectural merit.
Castle Stuart - no argument about 3 and 11. Two very fine holes, the short 11th in particular. The 18th however consists of a blind tee shot with a tee that suggests hitting the ball on a line that would land in what turns out to be the right hand rough. If you do hit the fairway then for most its just a dunt down a fairly wide fairway to set up a pitch to an interesting green complex. Unfortunately the green doesn't save the rest of the hole which is pure target golf dressed up as a links.
If I could add to the nominations I'd add a couple of holes at Covesea, the nine hole course up at Moray. A funky uphill short par 3 to a blind green which might not be great architecture but is great fun (possibly the 3rd ?). The other hole there is a also a short par 3 playing to a small saddle shaped green (possibly the 7th).
Also I note that Carne (McIntosh) is nominated which I'm very glad to see although not sure if the 7th is the hole I'm thinking of but there are a few holes that Ally worked on that I'd happily nominate. One in particular is the hole that is a a left to right dog-leg with the driving area being on an upper plateau which then plays down to a tiered plateau to the right with the green to the right of this lower area sitting on a higher shelf. A cracking hole.
Niall
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Niall, that’s the 8th at Carne Kilmore (or 11th on the new Wild Atlantic Dunes course). Seems to be quite a few people’s favourite.
Regards the 7th at Dornoch, I guess I am being really strict on what is a “new” hole. I feel an element of routing needs to be included in modern times if we are going to attribute it such.... so it should be a choice by an architect as part of a new course. Or it should be part of a 2 or 3 hole solution that helps unlock a routing issue. (For example, the two new holes at Portrush would count because they were needed in order to eradicate 17 & 18 and Ebert could have placed them anywhere on the routing and on the site, space permitting). However, happy to include it if anyone thinks it actually belongs as one of the modern greats. Does it?
Sean & Dai,
I do like the Bann a lot. And whilst I take on board David’s point about it being designed when the ball went less distance, I still think it is too small a scale for great golf. Moreover, one or two of the holes nominated I don’t believe have too much design in them. The 9th (a mini-Dell) could have been better I reckon. The pancake flat green does it no favours.
All that said, all holes will be included for consideration. 18 best holes in the last 50 years will really need to offer choices and something different to be included.
Glad we saw an Icelandic nomination. I knew there were a few unheralded crackers there.
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I would not say there was a "lot of room" behind this green, nor that it was a short iron from these tees-or that there was anything "blah" about this hole, including the green.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/A3lGk9Hjm-D5lK3xxbHUlpuzCv-wYzRPXAzRXCEdGCu1U7kIehhkZiKTz28lHJgnYe3PeCMcDNuNQwopFfmLlZpGOg0wmptCTGhx3nCK-w7_9XVg4HsTK8ojuJ_-fQKKp576HjL9Zkiy-TTiZFQlDSIHoaRgdqytEA1m7jjZJlPEDFLa9-ogFNHo5dZ7PfgFIdDX62pMfFT4yPzt-qNUo3EWo8H94wLie6rob_YJRlyOK4VF6FhVpfdLu58ui0LZxYOZ8UUHZiT0FSJiFsWlvmWCBHNbAr13t6hJLgZlQ5Skf8iW3tfdBUJTu5sxaDHTWX2Jo-DHXPCnwlVa_y4nxG-bXPvOw1_v05HYHWlDx1lV_laJqil_09XJfMh1btFEPNiotGfxSZ1uKAmDTo4V1xM02Dcn0azNqDrI1d5cEjeDe7jW2lAXQ-mPct3ovMlnplq_tFopsTAebzJ8HbWzFLIP74L2KG_0BfZMlbufnM75WOfpEywV0uTJj9yTCk2SjKcD1lE9MQ-2niiDZ1H9O09n0fKwYGXTQ1SMwLIbyW6ydMqG5Vc8BonmxvSzUZg_x8Ie2IGkaHqUgX6VWG5p64L7sut0N9e3yBgvpfiP1Rbk3qNt3exznr8LENAiVMCQUAnYgQkVIC5ib5buWCcJh_I9CoVpiezQLP5wmww4vMkxXFF-yiab1tG5YATvrA=w1286-h964-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M-xkRCYkUoF3qvaW6Fb4calwn4P_EWqGg3eEaxR4r6FvCrEhvjslCTcdq79escnRcKdhKYs7L7SIlq_K_57pZ66m8lryptZT5BBTnvx7scP7ryIE4uwrk1anso6YjLhEIsbHbr_c1otcIE1mwmwW6C8BOxNNXiw8CEMu-_18HMdchw1HryHLRHm2Exq_OCKTVjR67pQhr0SpFU98dOryyd6C-Wtm-tlP_bXsGWUvRRU9mFvP_itgAIzmIJRyX-emBthS4Hf9Z1m6GAXQZVys_qt09e9X7juSGG6pRrEndnVtABIKdJY4Ix8P5tfsbJXARxxBo0W5WVGIiCeJVo57Vzja-Tzgg_R79XvE_vVgdn-0JryF4D-IxVAZSKrhCXwBNBoBcysZUZv8hRU0EvPI5jENZ9xr6zw5M9Av0hQ_T5jb-mMoSQMIjwkewNHxnV-mfxnik0IDAsj3kZDLJ5KweelVdi799ztTvkkhtF_fVjtW9E6q7LLItI9e-gY-RxP0cbixMcxXTJo0SpX3hTGzdyRH2tVyMwE3ReuB7cz6AJeZ8fkbPQUgxIefkIQBFcKrqBpsR5vfXgikc0Z4NO54OgOSBfHsErNTZiwt1J5galr0qkYMRKmU6EOL25mm_q7mVSFEAXWSypz1Xd86OVgBIit_lqRl1cRfQfTrSM509e7lHJv_UTOtQlxwiD2lPw=w1286-h964-no?authuser=0)
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Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it. Don't encourage them!
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The 8th was no slouch either.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9bvnzQ-t741qzFRHfqyZnRyAYhSKy2xqwC7WMu9doj8_36Cg1L81fWCuyEwP3i1nhglz11FoZYyWqaMcza0wf9N1vn23YXWgB4BCgWvtApgBd6ENZ4DF_QkDC3gIQaI_1eBc1n5Ckt0JFZyV46A0dYc3fUxnxBSt6YScdPhVe_OjGA2cVeL4R4sF-DCoMET6AWW9CDJJFwgYcRXlEvKAJ773-Jr8HK7GL1fVHL9haWRLo5U8sGgc02cFSmSApN8f2wXkhnKUhm7eB8N1HFgQss1fALDdzuX1H2Jg5IMNNMajHGgHwk6zVGkRVhDDZSSv7El5mCTvEhO0F-MF8XrMvZymiRz9jpQgoQ45kb8fHTAj-E5Md0Xx87RIlHTlIfmmlWEOP59eTjmxF_GgQ-Nh5MvW3Bo8yeaCndf_7qcVVsVW4Ueh676Ly7HqlmF83qUG0tZH2Rkw1nxy09R_V0BE0KdO4LyvxawYG0Hix-sF0W1E0bZfbhQbgTp82pc9P6EQuZGnhSorcOVIaOmrXOyzBh7drsKt9UwTc2m9-TxvoNOh2MBPvKHg9AqCM8vQVdJ_sV4F7LkNIdE9ara7TcGi8MIZRnKXUEqYEaP3IHssQXUDiIzSztucg1MksJAEM9Vn6k6HXl089Ywr4Lxzxq7WyDZDsxmwz0zUl_fn5Ccn1K1XXPYVsFYaL-wwjVNcpw=w1286-h964-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jfErDA6AfYzDLQg576K3nnSE9YpgDX0eevhVRm_FiKUJCIjN_wtGdRTEu9Og12NeVA318vZ5xhcq_n1lUSBDSf1_d2SMHbuSKogn9-ALyGhxDO02uEVgYooAyf1el-0hwSQDj0gwFT-87evhBEAQ2eJVZA_NZpZKgru-3mYW_6Z8q2G2iEzh4p7elnvVHp6WP-pfaeZMywPBHb3uvqX0Cz3f97z1bU6vEG1tr8yub_56G0FPyhEUT6q3riEkG8Cx0JLg-oXuZkLAOn1NZyzJAhxJANFQStLvLKoCCp1aLnAMsdBwa4n8pdxDyanxN2GeiQokY9TsZAOWhaKiNtUSbjZyc_H_VqSllQ8y-GaVPgchImNDMz_IFTCew7l3OmpLwDmzswJFDoxm5iSWXdF26YN5T5EPwdyFSKr_29Mif24KqGWhtjbTAdn-FiXd3rx6mGszUv39wSySJz554qbsXZ2wB7qiS_UvSzByAebMaD_fgSv2MxfjAcs_F1jRD1G6sBRKXpN1-Y3uafKjwkdekbSoTyF6OlEg9HxhGTUAkPyEtKNlmxY0aFJommn7-TnbyWUB2xwalFQgV2D6VoteErBsqFye0I3UPRL0iN4Ku24l8Q8uMJy8sk9jCRBxRyLLSMa3623Ta3uH15A77jMW_vJIs3LkmfBHAmnqyIoKADsbZJQb-NLUOdeSNBkdMA=w1286-h964-no?authuser=0)
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Nice aiming pole!
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Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it. Don't encourage them!
Clearly you have to consider the two new holes at Dunluce. Different locations and far superior to what they replaced.
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Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it. Don't encourage them!
Clearly you have to consider the two new holes at Dunluce. Different locations and far superior to what they replaced.
Are there ‘new’ holes at The Island now?
Atb
PS - ‘‘twas moi that nominated the 7th at Carne Kilmore. Could have nominated quite a few more from the 27 holes onsite at Carne as well. There are a few at Tralee and the Cashen at Ballybunion that I could have highlighted but was limiting to 1 hole/1 designer.
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New holes at The Island yes.
A completely new par-3 4th (built by Hawtree in about 2008) and brand new 8th and 9th (built over the winter by Ebert). These would count if they were of sufficient quality. The two new holes are straightaway par-4’s and have eradicated the quirk.
I should have set rules in this thread. The final 18 has no limitation on holes per designer or holes per course. However, we should probably limit it to one hole per course for each person picking.... After all, we should really have to think about why a hole is a modern masterpiece rather than defaulting to a few favourites on a beloved course.
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Sand Valley in Poland has 3 outstanding holes:
The par 3 3rd, a pitching wedge to a tiny turtle shelled green.
The par 4 7th, a long hole with a large dune between the tee shot and the green.
The par 5 12th, with a nice bunkering scheme and an excellent green.
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Sand Valley in Poland has 3 outstanding holes:
The par 3 3rd, a pitching wedge to a tiny turtle shelled green.
The par 4 7th, a long hole with a large dune between the tee shot and the green.
The par 5 12th, with a nice bunkering scheme and an excellent green.
Does one stand above the other two if pushed, Pete?
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The par 3 3rd is completely manufactured. The par 4 7th,s dune is also manufactured but quite well done. I’d vote for the par 5 12th!
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Just thought of another cracking hole:
The 10th at Lough Erne (Faldo).
It is a short par-4 with a peninsula green in the lough to the right. On its own, this might seem rather contrived but together with a severe left to right sloping fairway that is held up by a retaining wall running down the middle, there is an excellent choice on whether to play safe on the high side of the wall or directly down the right side hoping for the requisite kick-in towards the green.
Anyone played it?
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I am going to nominate just one which I bet only one other person on here has heard of let alone played.
The short par 4 fifth at Rastenmoos Golf Club in Luzern, Switzerland. I worked there for three years and this hole got better every time I played it.
Easily reachable off the tee but if you try and get it wrong the outcome can be a bogey. This is despite the green and surround being very modest in form. Play it safe off the tee and it was an easy par possible birdie but it was all about the angle.
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OK,
Going to call this soon and take it to my little make-shift committee.
But before I do, just reminding people we have no hole from Spain, not much in France (Les Bordes, National?), hardly anything from lesser known EIGCA architects, no Frank Pont, Penati? Thracian Cliffs?... Couple of days to take last orders...
All courses updated in first post.
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Ally
Was Finca Cortesin not on the list at one point ? ???
I have played it and to be honest while perfectly pleasant, nothing to write home about. Other Cabell Robinson tracks in Spain are probably better at Santanna and La Reserva but again struggling to think of a hole that really stood out. I just find his green designs repetitive in that they all seem to have the same raised front.
Niall
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I am nominating Frank Pont's eleventh at Swinkelsche (the short four that is about as wide as it is long). I'm not totally sure whether it is a great hole or not, but it's certainly very very interesting.
http://www.golfbaandeswinkelsche.nl/gasten/baan-layout/hole-11 (http://www.golfbaandeswinkelsche.nl/gasten/baan-layout/hole-11)
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Ally:
I've not been there yet myself, and maybe no one here has, either so I don't know how it makes your list, but a couple of friends have said that the 16th hole at Sperone on Corsica, by Mr. Jones, is one of the most dramatic holes they have ever seen.
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Hi Ally,
For what its worth, here are a couple of my favourite holes from some of the new UK courses that I've seen.
Kingsbarns - 6, 12
Castle Stuart - 3, 9
Machrihanish Dunes - 10, 4
Trump Aberdeen - 7, 12
Renaissance - 10, 8
Not many would have played Ardfin, and I come from a biased position, but I believe there are at least half a dozen holes there that might be considered in this discussion.
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[size=78%]If I could add to the nominations I'd add a couple of holes at Covesea, the nine hole course up at Moray. A funky uphill short par 3 to a blind green which might not be great architecture but is great fun (possibly the 3rd ?). The other hole there is a also a short par 3 playing to a small saddle shaped green (possibly the 7th). [/size]
I played Covesea yesterday and “funky” and “great fun” can describe the whole course, not just one hole.
The uphill par 3 is the 5th and must be a serious contender for the most difficult sub-100 yard par 3 in golf (maybe sub-150 yard!). It’s 90 yards, blind, up a steep hill to a raised, crescent-shaped green that can’t be much more than 5-6 yards wide at any point and with drop offs on all sides. Makes the Postage Stamp green look positively welcoming!
The other hole Niall mentions is the 9th. Only 104 yards again from a tee tucked in at the bottom of a sandstone cliff to a tiny green sitting in a saddle on top of a dune.
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James
Glad you enjoyed Covesea. Let me ask you, how many balls did you lose ?
Niall
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Just one Niall - a hook into the maintenance shed on the second!
Actually I didn’t think there were that many opportunities to lose balls; the fairways and green surrounds are fairly generous - even if several of the greens themselves are tiny - and there are only a couple of holes with whins really in play. I certainly lost a lot more at both Montrose and Royal Aberdeen last week!
I thought Covesea was great. I was sure I was going to enjoy it, given what I’d read on here, but I wasn’t expecting the greens to be so good; both in terms of the shaping and (perhaps more surprisingly, given the £10 green fee, their condition). There’s also a great mix of just good strong links holes - the first four - and the downright quirky - including the two you mentioned and the wonderful 7th (125 yards over the top of a rock stack to a steeply 3-tiered green).
The one worrying aspect is that a number of trees have been planted around the course. They are very small at the moment (you can almost miss them) but they’ll start to change the character of the course much for the worse if they’re left to grow for a few more years.
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James
From what I recall you're a pretty straight hitter. That said it's been a few years since I was there but the rough between holes didn't get a lot of attention and generally it was a course where you kept your best Pro V's in the bag. I always thought that it if they could let a flock of sheep loose for a few weeks every year it would work wonders.
Sorry to hear about the trees though. I wonder if they are doing that out of safety fears ?
Niall
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I thought that when I first noticed some between the 2nd and 3rd, but they’re tiny so it’ll be 20 years before they’re of any real use and there are quite a lot of others where that can’t be the reason. For what it’s worth (not much, I’m sure) I’m going to email them saying how much I enjoyed the course and begging them to dig them up.
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James
Do you think they were planted or maybe they are just self-seeded ?
BTW, good on you for giving them some feedback. I'm ashamed to say I've never really, or rarely done that.
Niall
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Definitely planted - complete with stakes and plastic protectors ::)