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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 09:19:30 AM

Title: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 09:19:30 AM
The Ivy League has a pretty rich golf tradition so I was surprised to read this in Golfworld this morning.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Carl Rogers on May 30, 2020, 09:32:07 AM
It would seem the overhead for such a program would be negligible.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 30, 2020, 09:34:14 AM
Outside of Stephanie Wei what good has ever come from an Ivy League golf team?  Doesn’t the true spirit of the game call for golf to be an intramural sport?
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on May 30, 2020, 09:52:41 AM
As Ivy League schools don't offer athletic scholarships, this isn't a huge money savings nor done for Title IX reasons. To be fair to Brown Uni, these were only 2 of the 11 that were dropped. Won't be the last university to cut, just one of the first to announce as universities are feeling the pinch from lost revenue in several areas.

Men’s and women’s fencing, women’s skiing, men’s and women’s squash, women’s equestrian, men’s indoor track and field, men’s outdoor track and field and men’s cross country will all transition to club status, along with the golf teams. Women’s sailing and coed sailing will transition from club to varsity status.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 30, 2020, 10:36:58 AM
They don’t want their uncoordinated online students feel like they are missing out on anything.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Mark Smolens on May 30, 2020, 10:52:29 AM
I'm probably too close to the situation as the men's coach is one of my best friends (and a truly great guy!), but the whole thing stinks. Justifying the decision because of a lack of success? This is Brown we're talking about. The opportunity for these kids to play Division I golf while attending an Ivy League school was so great for these young men and women. And as for the revenue pinch, it's not as if Brown football has been bringing in the big $$ supporting the other athletic programs.


Oh but varsity co-ed sailing, that's the way to enhance the reputation of your athletic department.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 30, 2020, 11:00:39 AM
I feel very lucky that my youngest child just graduated from college. Was able to experience LSU win the National Championship in ways that may never been seen again.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 30, 2020, 11:02:46 AM
Brown's endowment is $4.2 Billion - there doesn't have to be much of a return for the school to do anything it wants without worrying about the cost.  Consider that they charge $60k in tuition and fees with overall cost nearly $80k per year.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Bernie Bell on May 30, 2020, 11:03:01 AM
Outside of Stephanie Wei what good has ever come from an Ivy League golf team?  Doesn’t the true spirit of the game call for golf to be an intramural sport?

This good came from Princeton's golf team.  Good Winged Foot story.  I believe they also played at Pine Valley and The Country Club.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92ZH3JLd2fE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92ZH3JLd2fE)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on May 30, 2020, 11:28:33 AM
Brown's endowment is $4.2 Billion - there doesn't have to be much of a return for the school to do anything it wants without worrying about the cost.  Consider that they charge $60k in tuition and fees with overall cost nearly $80k per year.


How on earth could a golf team at an Ivy be cut?
i get it at a struggling private(most) or state university
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 30, 2020, 11:32:50 AM
Brown's endowment is $4.2 Billion - there doesn't have to be much of a return for the school to do anything it wants without worrying about the cost.  Consider that they charge $60k in tuition and fees with overall cost nearly $80k per year.


How on earth could a golf team at an Ivy be cut?
i get it at a struggling private(most) or state university


No one wants to manage the quarantine after playing matches all over the east coast. Unlike most college sports these kids have the rest of their lives to play golf. Easy peasy.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
If I’m a bettor I think this will get reversed. I’m not saying for 20/21 but not long thereafter.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Blain on May 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Brown's endowment is $4.2 Billion - there doesn't have to be much of a return for the school to do anything it wants without worrying about the cost.  Consider that they charge $60k in tuition and fees with overall cost nearly $80k per year.


How on earth could a golf team at an Ivy be cut?
i get it at a struggling private(most) or state university
Very easily. Ivies have budgets just like any other school or corporation for that matter. Bottom line? The school decided that having a golf team wasn't that important in the whole scheme of things and that money was better spent somewhere else.They simply made the decision that golf would be better off as a club sport. I doubt that dropping golf will hurt alum donations because if it did they wouldn't have done it, trust me :) [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Emerson on May 30, 2020, 12:48:52 PM
It would seem the overhead for such a program would be negligible.


When at school has to cut 20% of next years budget these sports are the first to go.  I work at the University of Delaware and they are anticipating 20% cut for next FY.  I’ve heard from my parent that University of Louisville is expecting 25%+.  If your Dept. doesnt make money you’re on the chopping block at this point
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 01:00:09 PM
It would seem the overhead for such a program would be negligible.





When at school has to cut 20% of next years budget these sports are the first to go.  I work at the University of Delaware and they are anticipating 20% cut for next FY.  I’ve heard from my parent that University of Louisville is expecting 25%+.  If your Dept. doesnt make money you’re on the chopping block at this point


John-I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison between a state university and one of the ivy schools for purposes of endowments and or fundraising to capitalize any of the sports programs. Maybe a trend is beginning but I’m going to wait and see if one of the other Ivy schools makes any similar decisions on the golf front.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 30, 2020, 01:13:58 PM
We are never getting our rakes back either. Why would a school where everyone wants to go not have full enrollment? It's not for a shortage of smart kids.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 30, 2020, 01:33:30 PM
I'm with Jerry on this one.


One of the oldest universities in the country with a multi-billion endowment, and this is about money?


Umm, not buying it...
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Emerson on May 30, 2020, 01:36:50 PM
It would seem the overhead for such a program would be negligible.





When at school has to cut 20% of next years budget these sports are the first to go.  I work at the University of Delaware and they are anticipating 20% cut for next FY.  I’ve heard from my parent that University of Louisville is expecting 25%+.  If your Dept. doesnt make money you’re on the chopping block at this point


John-I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison between a state university and one of the ivy schools for purposes of endowments and or fundraising to capitalize any of the sports programs. Maybe a trend is beginning but I’m going to wait and see if one of the other Ivy schools makes any similar decisions on the golf front.


How is it apples to oranges?  Non-Revenue generating sport are ALWAYS the first to go regardless of school or endowment.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Blain on May 30, 2020, 01:37:55 PM
If I’m a bettor I think this will get reversed. I’m not saying for 20/21 but not long thereafter.
Tim-
You may be correct, but I doubt it. Maybe if the program had a stronger history than it does some influential alums could get involved and try to bring it back but I think it makes it much easier to justify cutting a program when there such little history of success. Let's be honest, they have been an Ivy League bottom feeder not for years but decades. Not sure why they haven't been more competitive but they simply have not. I'm not saying this is the right decision but if an athletic department is cutting costs it would be tough to argue this is a mistake.
Just my opinion. I hope you're well.
-John 
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 02:17:44 PM
If I’m a bettor I think this will get reversed. I’m not saying for 20/21 but not long thereafter.
Tim-
You may be correct, but I doubt it. Maybe if the program had a stronger history than it does some influential alums could get involved and try to bring it back but I think it makes it much easier to justify cutting a program when there such little history of success. Let's be honest, they have been an Ivy League bottom feeder not for years but decades. Not sure why they haven't been more competitive but they simply have not. I'm not saying this is the right decision but if an athletic department is cutting costs it would be tough to argue this is a mistake.
Just my opinion. I hope you're well.
-John


John-Thanks for the insightful comments. Hope you are doing well also.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Dan_Callahan on May 30, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
Losing their home course probably didn’t help. Thank you, Brad Faxon.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 02:28:49 PM
Losing their home course probably didn’t help. Thank you, Brad Faxon.


Dan-I’ve been eagerly awaiting the R.I. governor to at least let the border states in but still no go. Metacomet has tee times for the public for $55. C’mon Gina!!!!!!
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 30, 2020, 04:08:52 PM
As Ivy League schools don't offer athletic scholarships, this isn't a huge money savings nor done for Title IX reasons. To be fair to Brown Uni, these were only 2 of the 11 that were dropped. Won't be the last university to cut, just one of the first to announce as universities are feeling the pinch from lost revenue in several areas.

Men’s and women’s fencing, women’s skiing, men’s and women’s squash, women’s equestrian, men’s indoor track and field, men’s outdoor track and field and men’s cross country will all transition to club status, along with the golf teams. Women’s sailing and coed sailing will transition from club to varsity status.
This is far from the first.  East Carolina cut several sports a couple of weeks ago, including men's tennis.  Appalachian State cut men's tennis, men's soccer, and indoor track this past week.  Furman has cut several sports, most notably baseball, which Furman has been playing since 1891.  There is going to a LOT of this going forward, and if there is even one season of poor football attendance aznd related giving, there will be dominoes falling all over the country.
As to endowments and day-to-day athletic spending, I wouldn't necessarily conflate the two.  The conditions on endowment spending are pretty restrictive, and often limit dollars to capital improvements and strictly academic pursuits, including research and faculty chairs.  I would be surprised if many endowments around the country were able to be used to buy golf balls or pay coaches.
And fwiw, as bad as things might get in college athletics, high schools could be far worse.  Again, a failure in football gates for a lot of schools will be a disaster throughout the athletic program, especially with a lot the normal avenues for sport specific fund raising closed.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 30, 2020, 04:31:04 PM
It would seem the overhead for such a program would be negligible.





When at school has to cut 20% of next years budget these sports are the first to go.  I work at the University of Delaware and they are anticipating 20% cut for next FY.  I’ve heard from my parent that University of Louisville is expecting 25%+.  If your Dept. doesnt make money you’re on the chopping block at this point


John-I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison between a state university and one of the ivy schools for purposes of endowments and or fundraising to capitalize any of the sports programs. Maybe a trend is beginning but I’m going to wait and see if one of the other Ivy schools makes any similar decisions on the golf front.


How is it apples to oranges?  Non-Revenue generating sport are ALWAYS the first to go regardless of school or endowment.


You think Men’s and Women’s water polo and wrestling at Brown are revenue drivers? They remain as varsity sports with a bunch of others that don’t generate revenue either. Based on same the golf decision seems arbitrary.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on May 30, 2020, 04:32:44 PM
As Ivy League schools don't offer athletic scholarships, this isn't a huge money savings nor done for Title IX reasons. To be fair to Brown Uni, these were only 2 of the 11 that were dropped. Won't be the last university to cut, just one of the first to announce as universities are feeling the pinch from lost revenue in several areas.

Men’s and women’s fencing, women’s skiing, men’s and women’s squash, women’s equestrian, men’s indoor track and field, men’s outdoor track and field and men’s cross country will all transition to club status, along with the golf teams. Women’s sailing and coed sailing will transition from club to varsity status.
This is far from the first.  East Carolina cut several sports a couple of weeks ago, including men's tennis.  Appalachian State cut men's tennis, men's soccer, and indoor track this past week.  Furman has cut several sports, most notably baseball, which Furman has been playing since 1891.  There is going to a LOT of this going forward, and if there is even one season of poor football attendance aznd related giving, there will be dominoes falling all over the country.
As to endowments and day-to-day athletic spending, I wouldn't necessarily conflate the two.  The conditions on endowment spending are pretty restrictive, and often limit dollars to capital improvements and strictly academic pursuits, including research and faculty chairs.  I would be surprised if many endowments around the country were able to be used to buy golf balls or pay coaches.
And fwiw, as bad as things might get in college athletics, high schools could be far worse.  Again, a failure in football gates for a lot of schools will be a disaster throughout the athletic program, especially with a lot the normal avenues for sport specific fund raising closed.


Brown ain't East Carolina...
You cut golf,squash, fencing, equestrian I'm pretty sure you've lost a lot of students (at least as recruits)who actually pay full freight.
Many kids are invited to "walk on" at elite schools BECAUSE they pay full freight
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on May 30, 2020, 04:57:37 PM
As Ivy League schools don't offer athletic scholarships, this isn't a huge money savings nor done for Title IX reasons. To be fair to Brown Uni, these were only 2 of the 11 that were dropped. Won't be the last university to cut, just one of the first to announce as universities are feeling the pinch from lost revenue in several areas.

Men’s and women’s fencing, women’s skiing, men’s and women’s squash, women’s equestrian, men’s indoor track and field, men’s outdoor track and field and men’s cross country will all transition to club status, along with the golf teams. Women’s sailing and coed sailing will transition from club to varsity status.
This is far from the first.  East Carolina cut several sports a couple of weeks ago, including men's tennis.  Appalachian State cut men's tennis, men's soccer, and indoor track this past week.  Furman has cut several sports, most notably baseball, which Furman has been playing since 1891.  There is going to a LOT of this going forward, and if there is even one season of poor football attendance and related giving, there will be dominoes falling all over the country.As to endowments and day-to-day athletic spending, I wouldn't necessarily conflate the two.  The conditions on endowment spending are pretty restrictive, and often limit dollars to capital improvements and strictly academic pursuits, including research and faculty chairs.  I would be surprised if many endowments around the country were able to be used to buy golf balls or pay coaches.
And fwiw, as bad as things might get in college athletics, high schools could be far worse.  Again, a failure in football gates for a lot of schools will be a disaster throughout the athletic program, especially with a lot the normal avenues for sport specific fund raising closed.
Sports have been cut other than golf, but this is the first golf program I'm aware of during the response to the pandemic. Again it won't be the last.
Endowments at private schools go towards many specific "restricted gifts", which are intended for XYZ purpose from the donor that aligns with a universities priorities.  Public schools have a great amount of unrestricted donations, but less overall support.
I'm working on a company position for endowment support right now coincidentally and four things are impacting universities in terms of their endowments right now.
It is a tough road to hoe as tuition increases have creeped up, although the last 5-8 years haven't been crazy as the previous 10-15 years. However, fair to say they haven't been decreasing. A state has to balance it's budget, which is why Illinois and other states continually raid their pension funds and tap government issued bonds until they hit junk status. Real problems are ahead for public universities and we see consolidation as a real solution. Not in a bad way, but Darwinian where the strong will survive.

BTW I would argue private universities, especially the elites will use this to further distance themselves in almost all metrics. The other demographic that will be under severe pressure are the small private liberal arts colleges. The tuition of $40-60k a year just isn't appealing in downturns and alternatives will become more of a consideration.

The winner and IMO one of the jewels in the US is the community/junior college system. This is a neglected asset, which should and most likely will be utilized more to save money for students while providing the first 2 years of an undergraduate degree. In addition many provide certificate programs for professional jobs in the health care and other sectors.  The negative stigma or connotation from a junior or community college has been gone for a while, but now I think its status will rise as just being a smart consumer.

Athletics in "minor sports" basically everything but football/basketball will continue to be targeted as cost centers. Men sports moreso than female sports will be targeted, as Title IX is a real consideration and equalizer since football has so many athletes to have to balance out.

We shall see, but the above are real considerations. Of course some just discount reality and disruptive predictions as Johnny Carson's Carnac the Magnificent predictions.(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Carnac.jpg)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Blain on May 30, 2020, 05:35:02 PM
As Ivy League schools don't offer athletic scholarships, this isn't a huge money savings nor done for Title IX reasons. To be fair to Brown Uni, these were only 2 of the 11 that were dropped. Won't be the last university to cut, just one of the first to announce as universities are feeling the pinch from lost revenue in several areas.

Men’s and women’s fencing, women’s skiing, men’s and women’s squash, women’s equestrian, men’s indoor track and field, men’s outdoor track and field and men’s cross country will all transition to club status, along with the golf teams. Women’s sailing and coed sailing will transition from club to varsity status.
This is far from the first.  East Carolina cut several sports a couple of weeks ago, including men's tennis.  Appalachian State cut men's tennis, men's soccer, and indoor track this past week.  Furman has cut several sports, most notably baseball, which Furman has been playing since 1891.  There is going to a LOT of this going forward, and if there is even one season of poor football attendance aznd related giving, there will be dominoes falling all over the country.
As to endowments and day-to-day athletic spending, I wouldn't necessarily conflate the two.  The conditions on endowment spending are pretty restrictive, and often limit dollars to capital improvements and strictly academic pursuits, including research and faculty chairs.  I would be surprised if many endowments around the country were able to be used to buy golf balls or pay coaches.
And fwiw, as bad as things might get in college athletics, high schools could be far worse.  Again, a failure in football gates for a lot of schools will be a disaster throughout the athletic program, especially with a lot the normal avenues for sport specific fund raising closed.


Brown ain't East Carolina...
You cut golf,squash, fencing, equestrian I'm pretty sure you've lost a lot of students (at least as recruits)who actually pay full freight.
Many kids are invited to "walk on" at elite schools BECAUSE they pay full freight
Well since the Ivies don't give athletic scholarships you could argue that everyone is a walk-on. Trust me when I tell you that the Ivies or any of these other elite schools are not having trouble finding kids who pay full freight. I live in a college town in upstate NY where the cost all in is $72k per year and these kids drive Range Rovers. They don't need kids from these sports to keep the lights on, trust me. 
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Leahy on May 31, 2020, 05:50:45 AM
Univ's are getting lazy. How hard would it be to get a private sponsor for the golf teams. Titleist, Callaway, or many others. Little League teams have been using sponsors for expenses since I was a kid. Remember Manny's Bail Bonds from Bad News Bears! LOL
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 31, 2020, 07:39:32 AM
It's always good to put a face on tragic events. What a great group of kids. I hope the NCAA gives anyone who can transfer fair consideration.


https://brownbears.com/sports/mens-golf/roster
https://brownbears.com/sports/womens-golf/roster
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Emerson on May 31, 2020, 09:44:49 AM
Univ's are getting lazy. How hard would it be to get a private sponsor for the golf teams. Titleist, Callaway, or many others. Little League teams have been using sponsors for expenses since I was a kid. Remember Manny's Bail Bonds from Bad News Bears! LOL


Most schools have a contract with one of the shoe companies like adidas, Nike, UA etc.  This typically covers all apparel for all sports.  If they sell it the golf team will get it.  Shoes, hats, polos etc.  Only thing the team has to pay for “out of pocket” is clubs and balls.  I Know for S[size=78%]ure they get large discounts and on those too.[/size]
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 31, 2020, 09:56:10 AM
I thought clubs and balls are covered under the new rules.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 31, 2020, 02:48:41 PM
No matter what you guys think, there are lots of expenses to running ANY team, even if there aren't scholarships involved.  Coaches are paid, and travel costs a lot of money.  For a school like Brown, they might be getting clubs and balls and shoes at cost, but they aren't getting them free.
Sports cost a LOT of money, and I think a lot of you would be surprised at the restrictions on schools, public OR private, as to where that money can come from.  I dealt with athletic budgets in big high schools for 40 years, and the money involved is significant and hard to come by in the best of times. 

Here's a simple way of thinking about it.  Football makes money most places, or at least it had better.  Men's basketball makes money some places. Here and there, you find pockets where another sport might break even, but everything else just costs.  You have to pay coaches and trainers, and you have to pay for travel, and in most sports you have to pay for officials, you have to pay for equipment, and on and on.  Scholarships at the college level are only one piece of it, and not necessarily the biggest one.
This fall and next winter, we are going to reduced attendance, less giving, less advertising in programs and on sign boards.  Fund raisers like golf tournaments aren't going to work like they have been in the past.  Revenues are going to be WAY down, and something has to give.  Some places it will be bigger teams, like baseball at Furman or soccer at ECU; some places it will be smaller teams, like tennis at App St. or golf at Brown.  But lots of stuff is going to get scrapped by this time next year, and it probably won't ever come back.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on May 31, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
I dealt with athletic budgets in big high schools for 40 years, and the money involved is significant and hard to come by in the best of times. 

HS Athletic Director?  My dad was as well.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 31, 2020, 04:58:20 PM
I don't think you can compare an Ivy League school with almost any public university.  They don't give athletic scholarships so the athletics are no different from anything else like music or drama, etc. I have a friend whose son was offered a full scholarship to play baseball at Wake Forest but he chose instead to go to Brown and his dad paid the full tuition, etc.  On the other hand my neighbor was an all state basketball player from Ohio and Princeton really wanted him.  They gave him a full scholarship which was supposed to be based upon need and when he got there he decided not to play basketball and they could do nothing about it. I would also think that the college admissions scandal establishes that these schools are in such demand that they can charge whatever they want and people will pay it.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on May 31, 2020, 07:04:18 PM
I don't think you can compare an Ivy League school with almost any public university.  They don't give athletic scholarships so the athletics are no different from anything else like music or drama, etc. I have a friend whose son was offered a full scholarship to play baseball at Wake Forest but he chose instead to go to Brown and his dad paid the full tuition, etc.  On the other hand my neighbor was an all state basketball player from Ohio and Princeton really wanted him.  They gave him a full scholarship which was supposed to be based upon need and when he got there he decided not to play basketball and they could do nothing about it. I would also think that the college admissions scandal establishes that these schools are in such demand that they can charge whatever they want and people will pay it.


It kind of boils down to Brown is going to take their ball and go home because their competitive record is terrible. They aren’t looking to save money and will reallocate the budgets from the dropped varsity sports to those that remain.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 01, 2020, 07:46:21 AM
I dealt with athletic budgets in big high schools for 40 years, and the money involved is significant and hard to come by in the best of times. 

HS Athletic Director?  My dad was as well.
I was never the AD; taught and coached for 39 years.  Basketball the whole time, tennis early in my career, golf late in my career, and a little bit of other stuff here and there.
So here's an example of financing issues, though we're talking about HS instead of college.  For basketball, the county paid coaching supplements, bus drivers, gatekeepers and security, and game officials.  EVERYTHING else, uniforms, basketballs, water bottles, towels, tape, and on and on, came out of school funds, which either had to be from gate receipts, privately donated, or raised through things like golf tournaments or Shoot-A-Thons or whatever.  Some of this varies a bit from system to system, but that's the gist of it.  The affiliation with a shoe company came along very late in my career, and it helped for sure, but that stuff wasn't free; it just had a far better price, plus the company threw in some shoes and warmups for the coaches as part of the deal.
Our athletic program budget was so tied to football gates that a season with bad weather on Friday nights, or a season where we didn't play our archrivals as home games, made things really difficult, and that was in a BIG metro system in a very affluent area. 

Colleges aren't that different, especially if you get beyond the handful of teams that you see on TV year round in football and basketball.  Everything else is a financial black hole.  We all see the numbers of what Nike is paying coaches at the big time schools, but that has nothing to do with most sports even at those schools, and nothing to do with most schools.  The vast majority of college athletic programs have more in common with high schools than with Alabama or Duke or UNC or Clemson or Kentucky. 

One other thing to consider:  Most of the programs that are currently being cut are men's programs, and I think in many cases schools have wanted to cut men's teams for some time, but colleges are doing this NOW because there is sort of a PR window open because of the pandemic.  In addition to reducing their budgets, they are dealing with Title IX disparities.  (I have no idea how Title IX applies to Brown, but I wouldn't assume that it doesn't apply if Brown is taking any federal money at all for any part of university operations.)
If there is another wave of program shutdowns, it'll come later after college AD's see the outcomes of 2020 football and 2020-21 basketball, plus impacts of the pandemic on giving.  That's where the real crisis will come.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on June 01, 2020, 08:07:12 AM
I dealt with athletic budgets in big high schools for 40 years, and the money involved is significant and hard to come by in the best of times. 

HS Athletic Director?  My dad was as well.
I was never the AD; taught and coached for 39 years.  Basketball the whole time, tennis early in my career, golf late in my career, and a little bit of other stuff here and there.
So here's an example of financing issues, though we're talking about HS instead of college.  For basketball, the county paid coaching supplements, bus drivers, gatekeepers and security, and game officials.  EVERYTHING else, uniforms, basketballs, water bottles, towels, tape, and on and on, came out of school funds, which either had to be from gate receipts, privately donated, or raised through things like golf tournaments or Shoot-A-Thons or whatever.  Some of this varies a bit from system to system, but that's the gist of it.  The affiliation with a shoe company came along very late in my career, and it helped for sure, but that stuff wasn't free; it just had a far better price, plus the company threw in some shoes and warmups for the coaches as part of the deal.
Our athletic program budget was so tied to football gates that a season with bad weather on Friday nights, or a season where we didn't play our archrivals as home games, made things really difficult, and that was in a BIG metro system in a very affluent area. 

Colleges aren't that different, especially if you get beyond the handful of teams that you see on TV year round in football and basketball.  Everything else is a financial black hole.  We all see the numbers of what Nike is paying coaches at the big time schools, but that has nothing to do with most sports even at those schools, and nothing to do with most schools.  The vast majority of college athletic programs have more in common with high schools than with Alabama or Duke or UNC or Clemson or Kentucky. 

One other thing to consider:  Most of the programs that are currently being cut are men's programs, and I think in many cases schools have wanted to cut men's teams for some time, but colleges are doing this NOW because there is sort of a PR window open because of the pandemic.  In addition to reducing their budgets, they are dealing with Title IX disparities.  (I have no idea how Title IX applies to Brown, but I wouldn't assume that it doesn't apply if Brown is taking any federal money at all for any part of university operations.)
If there is another wave of program shutdowns, it'll come later after college AD's see the outcomes of 2020 football and 2020-21 basketball, plus impacts of the pandemic on giving.  That's where the real crisis will come.


AG
Agree with everything you wrote.
I'll even go farther and say if I were a student struggling to make ends meet at a non IVY college I would be resentful of all the various funded varsity programs, especially when some colleges have aid/scholarships that nearly goes begging in some girl's sports.
A sport like men's wrestling is often the victim of Title XI.
I know several girls who are rowing in college(at least one on a scholarship) who had never rowed a day in their lives(and weren't athletic in HS). There are more college rowers that there are High School rowers...
this coming from the father of two athletic girls.


But if I were a current at Brown, with a $4.2 million endowment(I realize athletic budgets are seperate)
I'd have a problem with this.
Seems they could've bailed on next year for pandemic reasons and announced that "as of 2022 or 2023" they would not continue program.


Colleges in general were headed for crisis(with rising tuitions and debt), and sports will be one of the casulaties.The pandemic will only accelerate the crisis. How many people after a year or two of online classes will think twice about paying $20-80,000 annually for a "college experience"
I know I'm paying rent for an unused apartment in a college town after paying full tuition for 2 1 /2 months of online classes.


Of course it could be that the club experience at Brown is not much different than the varsity experience, given the weather in Rhode island...
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Colin Sheehan on June 01, 2020, 08:11:11 AM
My heart breaks for Coach Hughes and his players. I cannot understand why the decision had to be so sudden, especially after they already lost their spring season. Could they not have given the kids one or two years so they could avoid having incoming first years and returning sophomores and juniors without the very program they were recruited? That would have prepared the kids and let some possibly transfer. 


Athletics in the Ivy League and D-3 are very much amateur athletics at their finest. The kids generally pay full tuition (unless they qualify for need-based tuition relief) and academics are the top priority with athletics a clear second priority. There's no mistaking that. And they compete without the results ever making it to ESPN. And in golf, if it weren't for the occasional parent or friend coming out to watch, there is virtually no spectators and yet, the athletes sacrifice and compete their hearts out on behalf of their teammates and out of pride of their school.


While the Brown program may have struggled, the team always had one of the highest gpas in D-1 college golf. More importantly, they produced one after another quality kids who always graduated on time and went on to a variety of successful professional careers, no doubt the kids benefited from and were blessed by their time and experience as a college athlete.

Coach Hughes was a very good mentor to his players, someone who sincerely cared for his kids. A life long Rhode Island-based PGA professional, he was always very patient and kind to his players. He respected their intellect and for graduation, he always gave each kid an interesting book and told them to start compiling their own collection.

It appears Brown's decision was not financial. The squash teams were fully endowed and they, too, were on the chopping block. The Ivy League schools only have so many admissions spots that can be allocated to athletics and with Title IX implications that need to off-set a football team, it appears they would reallocate the money and admissions spots from these 11 sports to the remaining programs. Even with these 11 teams being downgraded, the university will have a relatively high number of varsity programs compared with more D-1 schools outside of the Ivy League. 
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Buck Wolter on June 01, 2020, 09:27:13 AM
I dealt with athletic budgets in big high schools for 40 years, and the money involved is significant and hard to come by in the best of times. 

HS Athletic Director?  My dad was as well.
I was never the AD; taught and coached for 39 years.  Basketball the whole time, tennis early in my career, golf late in my career, and a little bit of other stuff here and there.
So here's an example of financing issues, though we're talking about HS instead of college.  For basketball, the county paid coaching supplements, bus drivers, gatekeepers and security, and game officials.  EVERYTHING else, uniforms, basketballs, water bottles, towels, tape, and on and on, came out of school funds, which either had to be from gate receipts, privately donated, or raised through things like golf tournaments or Shoot-A-Thons or whatever.  Some of this varies a bit from system to system, but that's the gist of it.  The affiliation with a shoe company came along very late in my career, and it helped for sure, but that stuff wasn't free; it just had a far better price, plus the company threw in some shoes and warmups for the coaches as part of the deal.
Our athletic program budget was so tied to football gates that a season with bad weather on Friday nights, or a season where we didn't play our archrivals as home games, made things really difficult, and that was in a BIG metro system in a very affluent area. 

Colleges aren't that different, especially if you get beyond the handful of teams that you see on TV year round in football and basketball.  Everything else is a financial black hole.  We all see the numbers of what Nike is paying coaches at the big time schools, but that has nothing to do with most sports even at those schools, and nothing to do with most schools.  The vast majority of college athletic programs have more in common with high schools than with Alabama or Duke or UNC or Clemson or Kentucky. 

One other thing to consider:  Most of the programs that are currently being cut are men's programs, and I think in many cases schools have wanted to cut men's teams for some time, but colleges are doing this NOW because there is sort of a PR window open because of the pandemic.  In addition to reducing their budgets, they are dealing with Title IX disparities.  (I have no idea how Title IX applies to Brown, but I wouldn't assume that it doesn't apply if Brown is taking any federal money at all for any part of university operations.)
If there is another wave of program shutdowns, it'll come later after college AD's see the outcomes of 2020 football and 2020-21 basketball, plus impacts of the pandemic on giving.  That's where the real crisis will come.


I know several girls who are rowing in college(at least one on a scholarship) who had never rowed a day in their lives(and weren't athletic in HS). There are more college rowers that there are High School rowers...
this coming from the father of two athletic girls.




We have a family friend who is over 6' tall and was a Freshman at a big 10 school when the coach stopped her in the hall and asked her if she had ever rowed? The answer was no, she went on to almost make the Olympics.


I saw a family on the local range last night, Dad looked like maybe he was a hockey player and Mom looked like she knew about golf, 4 daughters ages 9-3 hitting balls, I thought a smart coach might make an offer soon for the whole group.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Michael Moore on June 06, 2020, 10:04:09 AM
We got a long follow-up email from President Paxson today with some interesting tidbits. For instance, I did not know that prior to this, Brown's 38 varsity teams were the third most in the country. I did not hang out with the athletes, and my story of attending one football, one hockey, and one basketball game in four years always gets a chuckle.
 
The school is 53% women, which creates a bizarro Title IX world in which the men's track program, a pillar of the Diversity and Inclusion Action Plan Phase II, did not stand a chance. Will Brown be the one that ditches football and opts out of the Ivy League? A wise man once told me it's the most valuable brand in the world . . .
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 06, 2020, 04:50:02 PM
We got a long follow-up email from President Paxson today with some interesting tidbits. For instance, I did not know that prior to this, Brown's 38 varsity teams were the third most in the country. I did not hang out with the athletes, and my story of attending one football, one hockey, and one basketball game in four years always gets a chuckle.
 
The school is 53% women, which creates a bizarro Title IX world in which the men's track program, a pillar of the Diversity and Inclusion Action Plan Phase II, did not stand a chance. Will Brown be the one that ditches football and opts out of the Ivy League? A wise man once told me it's the most valuable brand in the world . . .
38 teams is a lot, for sure; I'd guess the average around the country is more like 20 to 25, with more schools below 20 than above 25.
At the risk of coming across as even more cynical than I am, which is pretty cynical, I'll guess that Brown took advantage of what a retired big-time D1 AD referred to in a conversation we had as "the PR window" of the pandemic, and cut some stuff that they had wanted to cut anyway.

And lest someone try to correct you by saying that Title IX doesn't apply to Brown because its private, if Brown takes ANY federal money at all, then Title IX does apply.  And there are very, very few schools that don't get at least some federal funding.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on June 07, 2020, 05:52:07 AM

Scholarships at the college level are only one piece of it, and not necessarily the biggest one.

AG, a couple things as scholarships are actually a very small part of it. When talking college athletics there are a small percentage of athletes that even get any form of an athletic scholarship.  The rest actually have a net positive on the university as they are actually paying tuition like a normal student (minus any need based funding). I just looked up the figures and here they are. https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/college-divisions (https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/college-divisions)


Now Division I & II as well as NAIA Division I can give athletic scholarships. Of interest is that only 56% of Division I athletes receive any kind of athletic scholarship and 60% for Division II. There are head count sports in Division I only(Men: Football & basketball; Women: basketball, tennis, gymnastics, volleyball) which means anyone on scholarship gets a full scholarship, although you can also have walk-on players as well. All other sports at all levels (except NCAA DIII and NAIA DII and Ivy League) are equivalency sports which means you can give partial scholarships and break them up among multiple athletes.


Below the Division I level, universities look at their athletes as another way to increase enrollment. Sports such as football at the NAIA DI level have football teams with close to 100 players, with over half receiving a "partial scholarship" in many cases of just 10-20%. So these athletes, while on "scholarship" are in essence receiving a small tuition subsidy. The NAIA level are almost all small private schools with very expensive tuitions, so giving them a "partial 10% scholarship" still yields enrollment and perhaps $50k or more still in tuition/fees.

A significant problem with accounting practices at universities (non DI) is that the athletic department doesn't get credit for the tuition/fees paid by their athletes, the university does. So although they are bringing in students and increased revenue, they are seen as a cost center. In truth the incremental cost to add an additional student as a full time student (12 semester hours or more of classes) is very small for the college, the tuition/fees delivers a net positive.

Outside of the most esteemed colleges/universities, most don't reach full enrollment or utilization. So in those cases athletics is a revenue producing positive. In the minor sports (outside of DI) many coaches are only paid a stipend for coaching and aren't full time athletic department employees or work another job at the college/university as their full time job.

With Title IX pressures, there has never been a better time to be a female college athlete. I played baseball at U. of Iowa in the mid 90's and we added a rowing team for women with 20 full scholarships to give, despite not one HS in Iowa having a rowing team. When I coached football at UCLA they added a rowing team while I was there, again despite not one public school having a rowing team in the entire state. In both of these cases the rowing coaches recruited their athletes from the walk on's who were playing other sports. I remember one girl from the track team, who couldn't even swim before trying out, ended up getting a full scholarship just based on her performance in the tryout (with a life preserver on). I have encouraged my own nieces who live in Chicago area to try it and one of them I know would be very good.


FYI here is a comprehensive site with scholarship limits for each sport by division.  http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Cliff Hamm on June 09, 2020, 10:01:52 AM
https://www.wpri.com/target-12/a-sense-of-betrayal-brown-athletes-feel-cheated-after-sports-are-cut/ (https://www.wpri.com/target-12/a-sense-of-betrayal-brown-athletes-feel-cheated-after-sports-are-cut/)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Sean_A on June 09, 2020, 07:44:50 PM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on June 09, 2020, 08:06:20 PM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao


Division 2.
Athletic Scholarships available, generally not bastions of acadamia (exception Bentley outside Boston)
USC Aiken would be on the extreme opposite end of the scale from Brown-academically and athletically.
Make no mistake though, even/especially schools that don't offer athletic scholarships find "academic scholarships or financial aid" for a recruitable athlete.
Some really good players have come through there-4 players currently on the PGA Tour, and many before.
Home course Palmetto-They have won multiple D-2 National Championships.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Sean_A on June 09, 2020, 08:14:06 PM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao


Division 2.
Athletic Scholarships available, generally not bastions of acadamia (exception Bentley outside Boston)
USC Aiken would be on the extreme opposite end of the scale from Brown-academically and athletically.
Make no mistake though, even/especially schools that don't offer athletic scholarships find "academic scholarships or financial aid" for a recruitable athlete.
Some really good players have come through there-4 players currently on the PGA Tour, and many before.
Home course Palmetto-They have won multiple D-2 National Championships.

Yes, the kid said they are #5 in the country and could compete with most Div 1 schools.

I agree, Ivy League etc may not call it athletic scholarship, but they find ways to pay for bright jocks.

Ciao
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on June 09, 2020, 08:46:10 PM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao


Division 2.
Athletic Scholarships available, generally not bastions of acadamia (exception Bentley outside Boston)
USC Aiken would be on the extreme opposite end of the scale from Brown-academically and athletically.
Make no mistake though, even/especially schools that don't offer athletic scholarships find "academic scholarships or financial aid" for a recruitable athlete.
Some really good players have come through there-4 players currently on the PGA Tour, and many before.
Home course Palmetto-They have won multiple D-2 National Championships.

Yes, the kid said they are #5 in the country and could compete with most Div 1 schools.

I agree, Ivy League etc may not call it athletic scholarship, but they find ways to pay for bright jocks.

Ciao


Not just Ivy league, whose endowments find ways for many kids (many that aren't athletes) to receive financial aid, especially D-3 schools, who give no athletic scholarships, but plenty of academic or financial aid packages to athletes.


Many foreign students play sports at D2 schools because grades or poor test scores(or lack of) held them up at D-1 Colleges(or in their case because they recruit heavily overseas-as does Augusta State)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Buck Wolter on June 09, 2020, 10:12:46 PM

Some progress -- not golf yet


https://twitter.com/jgault13/status/1270511084995108865?s=20 (https://twitter.com/jgault13/status/1270511084995108865?s=20)

Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Sean_A on June 10, 2020, 04:04:59 AM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao


Division 2.
Athletic Scholarships available, generally not bastions of acadamia (exception Bentley outside Boston)
USC Aiken would be on the extreme opposite end of the scale from Brown-academically and athletically.
Make no mistake though, even/especially schools that don't offer athletic scholarships find "academic scholarships or financial aid" for a recruitable athlete.
Some really good players have come through there-4 players currently on the PGA Tour, and many before.
Home course Palmetto-They have won multiple D-2 National Championships.

Yes, the kid said they are #5 in the country and could compete with most Div 1 schools.

I agree, Ivy League etc may not call it athletic scholarship, but they find ways to pay for bright jocks.

Ciao


Not just Ivy league, whose endowments find ways for many kids (many that aren't athletes) to receive financial aid, especially D-3 schools, who give no athletic scholarships, but plenty of academic or financial aid packages to athletes.


Many foreign students play sports at D2 schools because grades or poor test scores(or lack of) held them up at D-1 Colleges(or in their case because they recruit heavily overseas-as does Augusta State)

To be honest what rankles me is athletic scholarships for foreign students. I am not convinced that is good use of public funds.

Ciao
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on June 10, 2020, 04:36:04 AM
Odd story....

Today I happen to see a ball land on the 18th green out of the corner of my eye while waiting to tee off #1. The ball flew over the flag on a downwind shot to a front to back green and held quite nicely. I said the chap must be a very good golfer.  Ends up he plays at S Carolina Aiken.  9 guys, only 3 from US and 6 international.  No walk ons...all have a scholarship to some degree...his was 80% I think he said...which is the most offered.  Less than 3500 students and golf is one of the five men's sports on offer.  I guess it comes down to priorities.  No female team...they have six other sports.

Ciao


Division 2.
Athletic Scholarships available, generally not bastions of acadamia (exception Bentley outside Boston)
USC Aiken would be on the extreme opposite end of the scale from Brown-academically and athletically.
Make no mistake though, even/especially schools that don't offer athletic scholarships find "academic scholarships or financial aid" for a recruitable athlete.
Some really good players have come through there-4 players currently on the PGA Tour, and many before.
Home course Palmetto-They have won multiple D-2 National Championships.

Yes, the kid said they are #5 in the country and could compete with most Div 1 schools.

I agree, Ivy League etc may not call it athletic scholarship, but they find ways to pay for bright jocks.

Ciao


Not just Ivy league, whose endowments find ways for many kids (many that aren't athletes) to receive financial aid, especially D-3 schools, who give no athletic scholarships, but plenty of academic or financial aid packages to athletes.


Many foreign students play sports at D2 schools because grades or poor test scores(or lack of) held them up at D-1 Colleges(or in their case because they recruit heavily overseas-as does Augusta State)

To be honest what rankles me is athletic scholarships for foreign students. I am not convinced that is good use of public funds.

Ciao
Sean for private universities obviously the funds aren't public.
However, for public universities they can and do give athletic scholarships to international student athletes based on athletic merit. They want their teams to be the best they can. Athletic departments at the Division I level are self supporting in the "Power 5" conferences (Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, ACC, SEC) with some making substantial profits.  However, most others need a subsidy from the university to operate. 

There are other reasons for athletics other than win championships.  It is part of campus life and gives students activities to support and attend as part of their college experience. It allows alumni to stay connected to attending/watching their alma mater, which in turn gives donation opportunities. The local community also benefits and supports the university's athletics. In some cases the entire state doesn't have any professional sports teams (ex: Nebraska).

I'm biased as I played and coached in college, however I feel it is a vital part of university life that adds much more than it takes. However, I'm also aware that the USA is totally unique in this regard. I know that UK has British Universities & College Sports (BUCS) but is much more club orientated and without the commercialization and scholarships. Actually the USA model doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

Of course the salaries being thrown about for coaches is astronomical and outpaces inflation by many multiples over the last 20 years.

edit: formatting issues
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Sean_A on June 10, 2020, 05:07:33 AM
Yes, there is a long tradition of diverting funds toward athletics in the US. I have never been a fan of the system at big time universities. In any case, it's hard to argue that golf (most sports for that matter) adds anything to campus life that it couldn't as a club sport. It seems especially harsh when a public university hands out athletic scholarships to foreigners when in state students could surely use the money. But, as I say, I am very much against the current college sports system.

Ciao
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim_Weiman on June 10, 2020, 10:55:00 AM
Sean A:


I didn’t see anything wrong with sports during my years as a student at Princeton and did feel they added to campus life. Back then there actually was a kind of club football (called 150 lbs football), but the real thing was far more enjoyable to watch.


Overall, the Ivies do sports very well. Those who play are real “student athletes”, not the fake kind the NCAA talks about. Education comes first. Sports are for fun and don’t  interfere with the classroom. There is recruiting, but no athletic scholarships. Financial aid is need based only.


Leaving the Ivies aside, I am a passionate fan of USC football and have attended many games in the LA Coliseum - even one with Tommy Naccarato! The tradition and spirit does add to campus life, IMO.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Bernie Bell on June 10, 2020, 11:12:50 AM
Don't know anything about youth golf, but my experience as father and uncle is that intercollegiate athletics have contributed greatly to the perversion of other youth sports in US.  Not just at D1 level but also at Ivies, Patriot and NESCAC schools in pursuit not of $$ but of status.  We have effectively created a system of professional athletics at obscenely young ages.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 10, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
Yes, there is a long tradition of diverting funds toward athletics in the US. I have never been a fan of the system at big time universities. In any case, it's hard to argue that golf (most sports for that matter) adds anything to campus life that it couldn't as a club sport. It seems especially harsh when a public university hands out athletic scholarships to foreigners when in state students could surely use the money. But, as I say, I am very much against the current college sports system.

Ciao
Sean,
"Diverting funds toward athletics" is no different than diverting funds to music programs, or art, or drama, or student government, or the yearbook, or the newspaper, or any other part of university life outside the classroom.  In fact, the name "university" implies a larger commitment to student life beyond just books and professors.

The question of how much money should be "diverted" to ANY extracurricular activity in any school is a completely different question, and open to endless debate and revision.  But the idea that athletics, whether intramural, club, or intercollegiate is somehow a lesser endeavor than other forms of expression and the pursuit of excellence outside the classroom isn't supportable, at least in my view.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 10, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
Don't know anything about youth golf, but my experience as father and uncle is that intercollegiate athletics have contributed greatly to the perversion of other youth sports in US.  Not just at D1 level but also at Ivies, Patriot and NESCAC schools in pursuit not of $$ but of status.  We have effectively created a system of professional athletics at obscenely young ages.
Bernie,
I think it's safe to say that you and I share a distaste for what's happened to youth sports.  The "professionals" though, aren't the kids; it's the coaches that run year-round programs that are called things like travel, select, Olympic Development, and so on.  The kids and their families, as I'm sure you know, are shelling out BIG bucks for these programs.
The colleges are only to blame in the sense that the youth program coaches dangle scholarships in front of parents as an incentive to invest now for greater rewards later.  That it isn't really true is not the fault of the colleges.
I guarantee you if you interviewed 100 older HS basketball coaches who coached in the days before AAU became huge, like me and my contemporaries, they'd agree to a man that they wished they'd never heard those three letters.  Same with baseball coaches and travel baseball, and so on.  The big issue, I think, is that kids are forced into choosing a sport much, much to early, and usually for no purpose.  Ask college coaches and they'll tell you that they LOVE multi-sport athletes, whose numbers shrink every year. 

Big-time college athletics goes back long, long before any of this happened.  AAU basketball didn't become big until the mid-90's; same with travel ball and all the rest.  And it's a shame that it's come to this; I wish there was a way to put the genie back in the bottle, but I don't know what that would be.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 10, 2020, 01:56:42 PM
For an alternate data point...as a parent of a daughter who couldn't get enough Lacrosse, we found the opposite to be true.

Once she discovered it in the 7th grade, it was eat, sleep, and live Lacrosse.  She played 4 years of club lacrosse, (2 years on a traveling select team that played all over the Western US), 4 years of high school (3 year starter on Varsity), followed by 4 years in college, which also included tournaments in California, Idaho and Colorado.

She loved every minute of it and just couldn't get enough.  And we found the same enthusiasm among the other players on the travelling teams.  I even tried to get her to sample Basketball in High school, but she refused, even after trying to bribe her just to go to tryouts...

P.S.  She also excelled academically and was awarded partial academic scholarships for college.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Bernie Bell on June 10, 2020, 02:23:03 PM
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way.  [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Bernie Bell on June 10, 2020, 02:41:31 PM
Recent podcast with PGA tour player Denny McCarthy.  A lot of discussion about his youth and high school basketball career.  Good 5'9" player in a tough league. 


https://omny.fm/shows/kevin-sheehan-show/denny-mccarthy-with-kevin-sheehan (https://omny.fm/shows/kevin-sheehan-show/denny-mccarthy-with-kevin-sheehan)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: jeffwarne on June 10, 2020, 03:23:03 PM
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way. 


Soccer is definitely a closed shop for the most part in America, with the process you describe above being the norm.
So sad-
The "soccer" travel model ruined Little league as well with all the "elite" traveling and having little time for local town leagues.
never made sense to me for 11 year old mediocre kids to drive 6 hours, stay in a hotel and play against other well heeled over coached mediocre kids.
Spend that driving time practicing and doing something else....


Sadly College Coaches push for it because it's one stop shopping.


Golf has gotten just as silly which makes even less sense, given that you are only competing against the course.

Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 10, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
It can be a mixed bag Bernie.  My daughter and I both knew by her junior year she wasn't D1 caliber, which may have helped in our situation.  She did receive several D2/D3 scholarship offers to play at small schools in various locations around the country.


In the end she wanted to stay local so she went to the University of Utah which has a top notch club team in the WCLA that is consistently in the top 10-15 nationally.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Bernie Bell on June 10, 2020, 03:38:25 PM
Jeff, we have a deal at my club for strong youth golfers to join as solos.  It's a nice vibe.  Four of us old guys went out late afternoon for an emergency 9 recently, and two younger girls caught up to us.  We invited them through, but they waved us off.  Watching them I realized, they're in no hurry to finish, they're enjoying the golf and the chat with no adults coaching or following.  And if mom's kept waiting in the parking lot, they can blame it on the old men!
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on June 10, 2020, 03:57:52 PM
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way. 


Soccer is definitely a closed shop for the most part in America, with the process you describe above being the norm.
So sad-
The "soccer" travel model ruined Little league as well with all the "elite" traveling and having little time for local town leagues.
never made sense to me for 11 year old mediocre kids to drive 6 hours, stay in a hotel and play against other well heeled over coached mediocre kids.
Spend that driving time practicing and doing something else....


Sadly College Coaches push for it because it's one stop shopping.


Golf has gotten just as silly which makes even less sense, given that you are only competing against the course.






On the baseball front Little League, Babe Ruth, High School, and then American Legion seemed to be plenty back in the day. There were always independent Twilight leagues too if you hadn’t gotten your fill. The current travel team system and instructional costs are crazy.



Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 10, 2020, 04:07:15 PM

I played Little League for 6 years and youth soccer for 5 years back in the 70s and 80s.  The most travel we ever did was our side of the city, or theirs, for soccer games.  I always assumed those options still existed for the masses, and the year round travel teams as optional for the hardcore kids.  Are you saying kids today must decide to be all in on a travel team or nothing?
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 10, 2020, 05:34:24 PM

I played Little League for 6 years and youth soccer for 5 years back in the 70s and 80s.  The most travel we ever did was our side of the city, or theirs, for soccer games.  I always assumed those options still existed for the masses, and the year round travel teams as optional for the hardcore kids.  Are you saying kids today must decide to be all in on a travel team or nothing?
Complicated question.
If the goal is better competition (and I am NOT saying that it should be) then there is little alternative now but to play travel/select etc.  And many, if not most, of those programs become year round or close to it very early.  It is VERY difficult for parents to unilaterally say that they are going to not participate in all of that, especially if the kid wants to. 

It works for many kids, but there are lots of burnouts and lots of overuse injuries, too.  And it becomes quickly almost impossible to play multiple sports.  AAU basketball starts immediately after the HS state tournaments end, and travel baseball starts right after the high school season ends; both of those tend to run all summer and fall.  And soccer NEVER shuts down; there are national tournaments constantly. 

My son was a baseball player, but played football as well.  He gave up football before his junior year of HS because he was playing travel baseball almost every day during the summer; he decided that going thru the football workouts in the morning and then catching a baseball game that night was too much.  He projected as a backup DB and special teams guy in football, but a possible starter in baseball, so football ended.  You see a few kids now who play football and basketball, but almost nobody is able to play baseball and anything else because they play 50+ games in the summer.  It's very tough and very expensive; it's also very tough to be the one parent who says, "No mas!", even if you want to.  My son loved it, and so did I; I'd go back and do it all again in a heartbeat.  But I was sorry that he had to choose; that was something I never faced as a kid.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Michael Moore on June 10, 2020, 05:35:06 PM
As mentioned above, men's track/indoor track/cross country has been re-varsityized after significant pushback.
 
But one thing that I missed from the earlier letters was that Brown settled a Title IX lawsuit in 1998, agreeing to tie the percentage of varsity opportunities for women to the percentage of undergraduates who are women (I thought this was baked into Title IX) and to restore funding to women’s gymnastics and volleyball and to elevate women’s lightweight crew, water polo and equestrian teams to varsity status.

Do you bring your own horse? If not I can see how that would strain an athletic budget.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 10, 2020, 06:02:21 PM
AG,

Very well put.  I can certainly understand the psychology of not wanting to admit as a 13 year old, or a parent, that they aren't up to snuff.

I guess in my time, there were some traveling teams...end of year all-star teams that played as long as they kept winning.  I had the disadvantage of being in a very competitive Little League that won district most years, and sometimes sectionals. (One year they even made it to the WS for Seniors, 14-15 yr olds).  And despite being a good pitcher, I was a lousy hitter and they always picked the all-around players.

I am aware of the burnout and injury stories, and my daughter had more than her fair share, but then again how many that don't do year round sports end up developing the skills or get considered to play big time NCAA ball?  Considering it is "just" sports and very much optional, its hard to see the unwilling victims in these things.  Demand is clearly there, and parents like you and I seem to be more than willing to pay for it. 

Besides, how can you crush your kids dreams like that and not do it? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on June 11, 2020, 01:30:11 AM
Growing up in the Midwest there were seasons. Baseball in the spring/summer, football in the fall, basketball in the winter. There wasn't even a way to play organized basketball in the summer or baseball in the fall etc. Every sport had it's season and it was a rotation. As mentioned you have this crazy fascination of year round club/travel marathons which is very expensive.
IMO the real loser in this game are the high school team sports. It was something to look forward to playing your rival school across town in any sport. Now some kids don't even play for the HS team, but club/travel team for "exposure". There is value playing on a team and supporting your teammates when maybe you aren't the star. Showing up and practicing while playing your role for the team, not for you.

In terms of concentrating on a certain sport from middle school onward it robs these kids of some memorable experiences. One of my coaching colleagues used to tell kids the following: "I never heard of a HS athlete regret playing too many sports, they only regret not playing more." I don't know where he got it, but I agree.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 11, 2020, 12:12:49 PM
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 11, 2020, 01:03:07 PM
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.


Hope he makes the NBA because your nephew is gonna hate the workplace.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 11, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.

Hope he makes the NBA because your nephew is gonna hate the workplace.


He seems pretty grounded on that one actually, at least from what he tells me.  He didn't get any offers from PAC 12 schools or Gonzaga, although he was invited to try out for a few of them.  I think he's just hoping to get plenty of playing time in college and enjoy the experience.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Cliff Hamm on June 22, 2020, 04:05:22 PM
Between  Metacomet and Brown Lil Rhody is keeping lawyers busy:


https://www.golocalprov.com/sports/top-chicago-law-firm-representing-8-brown-sports-teams-fighting-for-reinsta (https://www.golocalprov.com/sports/top-chicago-law-firm-representing-8-brown-sports-teams-fighting-for-reinsta)
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Tim Martin on June 22, 2020, 07:24:47 PM
Is anyone shocked that Brown athletes are choosing to sue? Why didn’t Brown put a sunset provision in place for the affected sports? Even if you allow incoming freshman to finish out in their sport you are talking about four years.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 25, 2020, 07:52:13 AM
In neighboring, related news, UConn is proposing a 25% cut:


https://www.newstimes.com/uconn/article/UConn-proposes-cutting-men-s-tennis-swimming-15363008.php (https://www.newstimes.com/uconn/article/UConn-proposes-cutting-men-s-tennis-swimming-15363008.php)


This one highlight from the story itself... interesting facts and figures that put a real dollar amount on some of the revenue-loss sports:


According to the 2019 report, men’s tennis brought in $5,100 in revenues and $297,789 in expenses. Men’s swimming and diving accounted for $85,718 in revenues and $719,847 in expenses. Men’s track and cross country brought in $47,948 and cost $1,619,895 to run.
[/size]Women’s rowing brought in $264,210 in revenues and had $1,531,522 in expenses.
[/size]In 2019, there were 398 female athletes on women’s teams and 387 on men’s teams, which is about proportional to the school’s student body population and compliant with Title IX guidelines.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 25, 2020, 08:23:57 AM
Grow up and choose between a STEM education or playing some half ass sport.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 25, 2020, 08:59:48 AM
Grow up and choose between a STEM education or playing some half ass sport.


Who is that response for?
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 25, 2020, 09:11:28 AM
It is for the youth of America that are falling behind the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Mike_Trenham on June 25, 2020, 08:16:24 PM
It is for the youth of America that are falling behind the rest of the world.


I 110% agree.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Jeff Schley on July 08, 2020, 02:45:58 PM
WOW!  Didn't see this coming. If Stanford is doing it (although private), look for this to be coming for just about every university IMO now.

Stanford to cut 11 varsity sports, cites pandemic as breaking point
Stanford, which has long boasted one of the most robust collections of varsity sports in the country, will cut 11 of its varsity programs at the conclusion of the 2020-21 academic year as it deals with the ongoing financial ramifications of the coronavirus pandemic.
The 11 sports that will be discontinued are men's and women's fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men's rowing, co-ed and women's sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men's volleyball and wrestling.
Coaches and athletes were notified of the decision via Zoom conferences on Wednesday.
The school announced the decision in an open letter to the Stanford community on behalf of President Marc Tessier-Lavigne, Provost Persis Drell and Bernard Muir, the athletic director. The letter said that continuing to fund 36 athletic programs was "not sustainable" and that alternatives such as budget reductions and fundraising were "insufficient to meet the magnitude of the financial challenge before us."
"This is heartbreaking news to share," the administrators wrote in the letter. "These 11 programs consist of more than 240 incredible student-athletes and 22 dedicated coaches. They were built by more than 4,000 alumni whose contributions led to 20 national championships, 27 Olympic medals, and an untold number of academic and professional achievements. Each of the individuals associated with these programs will forever have a place in Stanford's history."
Stanford will honor all of its scholarship commitments and assist any athletes who wish to continue their careers elsewhere.
Coaches' contracts will also be honored.
The letter cited an already dire situation before the coronavirus spread throughout the United States. The school projected the deficit to exceed $12 million in the fiscal year, which would "grow steadily." Then came the pandemic, which it said exacerbated the issue. Before the cuts to the 11 programs, the school estimated a best-case scenario of a $25 million deficit in the fiscal year and a cumulative shortfall of $70 million over the next three years.
"The primary alternative to this decision would have been a broad and deep reduction in support for all 36 of our varsity sports, including the elimination of scholarships and the erosion of our efforts to attract and retain the high-caliber coaches and staff needed to provide an unparalleled scholar-athletics experience," the administrators wrote. "After considering the effects of this model, we determined that operating our varsity athletics programs in this manner would be antithetical to Stanford's values and our determination to be excellent in all that we do.


"While painful, the discontinuation of these 11 sports at the varsity level and the associated reductions in our support staff will create a path for Stanford Athletics to return to fiscal stability while maintaining gender equity and competitiveness."
The letter gave several criteria for how the school chose which programs to cut, including fan interest, potential savings and the impact on Title IX compliance, as well as each sports' history at Stanford and their prospects for future success.
While Stanford is hardly alone in discontinuing athletic programs in recent months, it is the first to make such a high number of cuts.
Recently, UConn eliminated four teams to reduce its overall offering to 18 sports.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: David_Tepper on July 08, 2020, 09:32:58 PM
The Ivy League has cancelled their fall sports season:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-08/ivy-league-becomes-first-in-division-i-to-cancel-sports-semester?srnd=premium
 
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Dan_Callahan on July 08, 2020, 10:19:18 PM
The Ivy League has cancelled their fall sports season



Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst and Mt Holyoke have all cancelled fall athletics as well. And Macalester College is housing all athletes by team in area hotels to keep them separate from the general school population. It’s going to be a mess until there’s a vaccine.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Dave Herrick on July 09, 2020, 02:18:56 PM
Just read an email from Dartmouth that it is immediately eliminating men’s and women’s golf and permanently closing Hanover Country Club.
Title: Re: Ivy League’s Brown University cuts men’s and women’s golf teams
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on July 09, 2020, 04:25:05 PM

Here's the Dartmouth story:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-09/dartmouth-cuts-five-sports-to-ease-deficit-exacerbated-by-covid?sref=roisRdrZ (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-09/dartmouth-cuts-five-sports-to-ease-deficit-exacerbated-by-covid?sref=roisRdrZ)


Quote
Dartmouth College is eliminating five varsity athletic teams and 15 staff positions, including eight coaches, to help ease a budget deficit made worse by the Covid-19 pandemic.[/size]The Ivy League school is dropping men’s and women’s swimming and diving, men’s and women’s golf, and men’s lightweight rowing. The changes immediately affect about 110 students and reduces varsity teams to 30, the college said in a statement (https://news.dartmouth.edu/news/2020/07/dartmouth-announces-changes-varsity-athletics-program) Thursday. The number of recruited athletes in incoming classes will be cut by 10%.Dartmouth is also permanently closing its Hanover Country Club, located at the college-owned golf course, after years of operating at a loss and with deficits expected to swell to $1 million annually.