Which existing course on a terrific site would you most like to see given a really significant upgrade? An upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special.
I reckon I’d select the Cashen course at Ballybunion.
Atb
Burnham & Berrow
1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with
What an odd comment. Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area. The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with
Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.
I certainly wouldn’t touch Brora. I wouldn’t touch The European either.
You can argue about Pat Ruddy’s style for the land but it’s his style and the perfect example of his architecture. We need some courses to be left as examples of original architecture.
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?
Which existing course on a terrific site would you most like to see given a really significant upgrade? An upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special.
I reckon I’d select the Cashen course at Ballybunion.
Atb
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?
Maybe almost as good as Spyglass Hill? Instead they opt'd for the greatest 17 hole course in the world...
Thanks Tom. You’ve seen a zillion more courses than me so your relative priority of revising specifically the Cashen and your reference to Mr Jones position is understood.Which existing course on a terrific site would you most like to see given a really significant upgrade? An upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special.There are people dying to monetize this question, in the post-pandemic environment.
I reckon I’d select the Cashen course at Ballybunion.
Atb
However, I don't think the Cashen would be the first course I'd recommend. Years ago, I spent several days on trying to figure out a better routing, and came up pretty empty. Sure, you could get on a bulldozer and smush down the green complexes into something receptive enough to make it playable in a wind, and that would be a major improvement. But the land is very steep, and that means it will still have its weaknesses in the end.
[Ultimately, I didn't take the job because I remember Mr. Jones telling me personally that it was one of his favorite projects ever, and I didn't have the heart to blow it up under those circumstances . . . even though I can't agree with him.]
What an odd comment. Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area. The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with
Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.
What an odd comment. Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area. The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with
Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.
Not odd at all: [size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/ (https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/)[/size]
I was great to see the response and support there.
Yes, it is a fine course. No debate there.
as are many mentioned here. But, that was not the intent of the thread.
It WAS about an "upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special"
It is my opinion that, if it was restored, renovated, updated, it would qualify as someting "really, really special.
You do not. That's fine. What then DO you say?
I think the green surrounds, tie-ins and turf quality leave it out of the category of "really, really special".
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?
Suspect most would say Torrey Pines. I know Rees did it again to make it more US Open ready, and other changes made to the North course, but neither ever reflected in the original design anything that would suggest they were on a spectacular site near the ocean. They were standard issue golf courses on a spectacular site.
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?
No, my imagination is not adequate. But if you post the routing that you are suggesting, it might prompt a different perspective.
Ira
Noordwijkse. World class land. Very good course which could be world class.
What an odd comment. Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area. The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.1. Old Head
2. European Club
3. Nantucket Golf Club
4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.
5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course
Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with
Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.
Not odd at all: [size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/ (https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/)[/size]
I was great to see the response and support there.
Yes, it is a fine course. No debate there.
as are many mentioned here. But, that was not the intent of the thread.
It WAS about an "upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special"
It is my opinion that, if it was restored, renovated, updated, it would qualify as someting "really, really special.
You do not. That's fine. What then DO you say?
I think the green surrounds, tie-ins and turf quality leave it out of the category of "really, really special".
Jon
I stopped in for a walk around Eyemouth last year...not impressed. Much of the course is a field with a few holes on the sea. It reminded me of a much flatter The Glen. Both courses could do with being 9 holers 😎.
Ciao
Montauk Downs, NY gets my vote.
Southern Pines not getting TLC news is a bummer. it's a special place I look forward to seeing again someday.
Mississippi Dunes Golf Course in Cottage Grove, MN. Sand based land located on shores of Mississippi. Terrible course built on it, and now it's slated for housing redevelopment after owner ran course into ground. Terrific site for a golf course.
Old Head for sure. The site is a 13 and the course is a 4 :(
Noordwijkse. World class land. Very good course which could be world class.
Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.
Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.
Good call - I worked the greens crew there for a summer in the early 90's. Containment mound heaven -- the 3? holes back and forth across the Eagle were the best. Very severe greens, I remember one 3 tiered Mickey Mouse shaped green, I think they softened 18 after I left as you couldn't keep a putt from above the ridge on the green. It was an awesome place to work -- we called it a turf museum -- spent many afternoons as the only person on the course. Really liked the alternate fairway hole as hole location made one or the other preferable.
Ira,
I found an old RTJ CPC Renovation routing plan on the dark web. Here is a quick Google Earth view of how he envisioned things...
(https://i.imgur.com/t3F1vWy.jpg)
Mike,Noordwijkse. World class land. Very good course which could be world class.
Mark,
They surely need more land (presumably tricky given the EU's aversion to building in sand dunes) to avoid having to play those 3 holes in the trees? And, that is tricky because 4, (from memory a good hole) is a long way from the 8th tee.
I'm thinking you could maybe make an acceptable hole from somewhere near there to the 7th green and get out that way?
Burnham & Berrow
Not many course don’t! And a few goats too.Burnham & BerrowMostly needs some sheep.
Bay Harbor
Trump Ferry Point - the site isn't exactly 'terrific' but has some movement and the views are hard to beat. The faux-links dunes in between every hole feel like isles in a grocery store.
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?
Noordwijkse. World class land. Very good course which could be world class.
Mark,
I can't believe you beat me to the punch line on this. Good call!
There is no course I can think of in any that I have seen that has the potential to be world class on an amazing property that is in more need of and could benefit more from a thorough renovation than Noordwijkse.
At this point I don't think that's ever going to happen, sadly. There is a faction at the club that in light of overwhelming proof, which we most certainly have, are averse to change and believe the course is perfect just the way it is.
But it would help if Golf Club Atlas started a petition, lead by a knowledgable lawyer from the UK urging the club to make the most of the gift that nature has provided them.
;D
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?Sorry to be rude, but I have been on this site for a long time and don’t remember ever seeing a worse suggestion.
Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?Sorry to be rude, but I have been on this site for a long time and don’t remember ever seeing a worse suggestion.
Sandpiper near Santa Barbara, Ca sits on a better site than Torrey Pines and has a few good ocean front holes but gets no top 100 votes and could become a top 100 with a Doak update in my opinion.
At least I am not the only one thinking about it. Sounds like a challenge to the designers out there.Sandpiper near Santa Barbara, Ca sits on a better site than Torrey Pines and has a few good ocean front holes but gets no top 100 votes and could become a top 100 with a Doak update in my opinion.
I'm not so sure. Tom recently said this about Sand Piper:
"One course where I beat my head against the wall trying to find a better solution is Sandpiper, just north of Santa Barbara. It's got just as much frontage on the ocean as Pacific Dunes does, and better weather, but it's nowhere near the golf course. A lot of that is because the inland parts are not beautiful sand dunes as in Oregon, but the coastal holes do not get as much bang out of the coastline as you'd expect. I tried for quite a while to find a better solution, but eventually gave up on it. Maybe someone smarter than me will figure it out someday, but then they would have to get the California Coastal Commission to say okay to it."
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67916.msg1625234.html#msg1625234 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67916.msg1625234.html#msg1625234)
Tom-Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.
Good call - I worked the greens crew there for a summer in the early 90's. Containment mound heaven -- the 3? holes back and forth across the Eagle were the best. Very severe greens, I remember one 3 tiered Mickey Mouse shaped green, I think they softened 18 after I left as you couldn't keep a putt from above the ridge on the green. It was an awesome place to work -- we called it a turf museum -- spent many afternoons as the only person on the course. Really liked the alternate fairway hole as hole location made one or the other preferable.
Yep. There's a couple straight up "holes" in a couple greens. Literally like a bunker in the green except it's bentgrass maintained at greens height. 2nd hole center left for example (the alternate fairway hole). Plus you can't see like half the bunkers. It's very linksy in that regard and since it's a member's course I guess that's kind of cool. What about how 9 and 18 are virtual mirrors of each other? Or the 5th hole where a massive bunker juts out into a pond?
How'd you like working for KR?