Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jason Topp on February 11, 2020, 11:49:54 AM
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I do not recall a decent lit course in the US. Seems like a huge revenue opportunity in the South with short daylight hours in the winter and hot summer days. Is the expense simply too high? Do light pollution concerns make such an option unlikely to be permitted?
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There are 2 courses that are lit I have played in the ME. One is the Faldo course at the Emirates Golf Club in Dubai all 18. The second is my home course here in KSA Rolling Hills GC which has 9 of the 18 lighted. I like it provided the lights are always behind you pointed forward where you could be blinded. Makes for the only time of the day to use a golf course during the summer due to heat.
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This site says a standard high school football field costs about $200K, which would be approx 150 yards of linear yard lighting.
"A high school football field can be lighted for approximately $200,000. This includes lighting levels of 30 footcandles and assumes that power source is adequate and within 100 feet of one of the four poles."]
https://www.razorlux.com/how-much-do-stadium-lights-cost.html (https://www.razorlux.com/how-much-do-stadium-lights-cost.html)
Assuming a 6000 yard course at 200k Per 150 yards, rough ballpark figure would be at least $8,000,000. But that is just parts and labor to install, wouldn't include operating and maintenance costs.
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It could make sense in a warm weather spot for the winter months when sunset is early. In the north, the daylight is so long anyway while the temps are good for golf that you only get a little benefit. Maybe that is part of why it hasn't caught on.
On a northern course, it could be interesting only lighting a short loop of holes around the clubhouse. Say you have an 18 hole course with the last 3 holes lit (to extend people's ability to get 18 in before dark) and another 3 to form a night loop.
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There are quite a few courses in Korea and Japan that are lighted for night play, at least the last three holes as Peter suggests. Two of the courses of Sky 72 GC by the Incheon airport are lit, and they do something like 90,000 rounds per year at a healthy green fee. Years ago, the owners approached me about redesigning one of them, but they were making too much money from it to take it out of play for that long :o
In the USA, light pollution would be a big factor -- the course would either have to be right downtown, or way out in the boonies. We never discussed it at Streamsong but that would be the best candidate of any of my courses. They would really benefit from a couple extra hours of play in the winter / high season when the days are short; it would be too cold for some, but not for most northeastern visitors.
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The larger the area the course occupies the more lights, costs etc involved. Maybe an interesting option however in the right location/climate with a shorter/smaller course using restricted distance golf balls?
Atb
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Light the greens and then have spot-light drones that follow you, rf chip in the ball and the drone leads you right to it-- might not even need to light the greens.
Off to write my patent.
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San Diego had 3 of them back in the 1980’s. River Valley adjacent to the old Stardust was an executive 9 hole course; 4 par 4’s and 5 par 3’s if I recall correctly. That closed when the trolley line went through the Stardust and it became Riverwalk. Tecolote Canyon has 4 300 yard par 4’s with the rest par 3’s and is still in business but stopped the night lighting 20 years ago. Mission Bay also has 4 300 yard par 4’s with the rest par 3’s and is still going strong; I believe they do 90,000 rounds a year. It is in Mission Bay Park so light pollution is not an issue.
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With many new golf courses/resorts being built on very large sites (with much space left over), I might imagine a large scale 'solar farm', with high-tech panels neatly spread out over 50 acres and powering (perhaps) everything, from the lights to the resort itself etc. Bring in Mahaffey to devise some minimalist ultra efficient irrigation system and TD to design some ground hugging very low maintenance fescued field of play, and you might have a close to 'self sustaining' golf course. And for those who don't care about such things: it would totally change the concept of a 'quick round after work' (if it was in/close to an urban centre -- which as Tom notes probably couldn't happen), and at a destination resort it would be the much valued 'bonus' -- almost actual 'unlimited play' for one not-so-low daily green fee.
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There are quite a few courses in Korea and Japan that are lighted for night play, at least the last three holes as Peter suggests. Two of the courses of Sky 72 GC by the Incheon airport are lit, and they do something like 90,000 rounds per year at a healthy green fee. Years ago, the owners approached me about redesigning one of them, but they were making too much money from it to take it out of play for that long :o
In the USA, light pollution would be a big factor -- the course would either have to be right downtown, or way out in the boonies. We never discussed it at Streamsong but that would be the best candidate of any of my courses. They would really benefit from a couple extra hours of play in the winter / high season when the days are short; it would be too cold for some, but not for most northeastern visitors.
Tom is right about light pollution as one of the primary reasons for lack of lighted courses in the USA. Most of the time, even where it might even make sense (SoCal or Nevada desert), local zoning won't yield. Power costs are also a hinderance.
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Light the greens and then have spot-light drones that follow you, rf chip in the ball and the drone leads you right to it-- might not even need to light the greens.
Off to write my patent.
Buck,
Sounds like a version of night golf almost with a glow in the dark ball.
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Carya in Belek, Turkey had the back nine lit when we were there. I believe they have all 18 done now:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49521775128_bd9d9008e8_c.jpg)
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We've been doing Night Golf for years with a combination of flood lighting the greens/tees and using night balls. It's very popular and we now do live streams to FB of matchplay tournaments. Here's a link to one of the streams- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HEcRBvfis&t=38s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HEcRBvfis&t=38s)
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Highland Greens Golf Course in Prospect, CT is a par 3 nine holer with distances between 115 yards and 190 yards. Opened in 1967 it had lights on opening day and has operated continuously through today. Surprisingly they would let kids play without their parents in the 1970’s at night and despite quite a few plays I don’t ever remember playing it in the daytime.
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How long until one of these resort par-3 courses, such as at Streamsong, is lighted? Seems to make sense for post dinner golf when there is nothing else to do except drink. Why not golf and drink.
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We've been doing Night Golf for years with a combination of flood lighting the greens/tees and using night balls. It's very popular and we now do live streams to FB of matchplay tournaments. Here's a link to one of the streams- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HEcRBvfis&t=38s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HEcRBvfis&t=38s)
I have to say that I would rather watch that broadcast than 90% of what I see on the golf channel! I like the sound effects.
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Tulsa has a lighted par tree course at LaFortune Park. At least it was 20 years ago when I last played it. They would have one large spotlight per hole that would light up each green, leaving the tee boxes in near darkness.
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We have actually studied lighted golf and ranges. In addition to the huge up front cost, it turns out that in most family oriented cities, there is either enough daylight when it is warm enough to play after dark. In June and July, it's daylight until after 8, and not that many folks would play after 10, so its a large expense for 2 hours a day a few months a year. Even here in Texas, not many are going to play this time of year after dark. Golf remains a summer sport.
And, the use patterns are set for family reasons, i.e., if you have kids at home, night is even a worse time to take off for golf than day, as you are getting them ready for bed, etc.
The business side of the study suggested it usually pays off in urban areas like Las Vegas, where a large part of the population tends to stay up late. I presume a full service bar, like Top Golf, would be available.
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I do not recall a decent lit course in the US. Seems like a huge revenue opportunity in the South with short daylight hours in the winter and hot summer days. Is the expense simply too high? Do light pollution concerns make such an option unlikely to be permitted?
. Not to be too tongue in cheek. We are aging as a group and start napping at about 9 PM
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There was a lighted course near LAX that was par 66 or something. But it was difficult to see drives and wedges as they would get over the lights and you had to guess where they came down. Putting was also very hard to judge.
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An interesting note from the course that I grew up playing. An illuminated golf course in 1933 outside of Chicago:
At the time of the 1933 World's Fair, the Century of Progress Exposition, the Wilmette Golf Club became one of its great off-site attractions. A 27-hole facility at the time, the Wilmette Golf Club included a nine-hole "illuminated" golf course making it one of the only, if not THE only, golf course in the world that could be played under the stars
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In the 70’s, Tall Pines was an 18 hole full length course in South Jersey that had 9 lit holes. I think Ron Jaworsky bought it and changed its name. Not sure of its present status.
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Jeff's research seems to confirm what i suspected. Given the massive expense and to only get a couple extra hours per day, hard to see the ROI...especially with so many courses already struggling to get a return without em.
Let TopGolf have this segment, likely high percentage of 30 and under crowd. As Dan has suggested, 9 PM is for that last cocktail and putting on Sports Center ;D
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One of the few things where NIMBY makes sense.
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There was a lighted course near LAX that was par 66 or something. But it was difficult to see drives and wedges as they would get over the lights and you had to guess where they came down. Putting was also very hard to judge.
I used to play Westchester Golf Course a lot in college. At the time, they were a 15-hole golf course, after they sold 3 holes worth of land to LAX. I always enjoyed playing at night when it was a little cooler and school got in the way of playing during the day. I agree the lights were not ideal for reading putts or watching approaches, but the price was always right for a college kid.
Bret
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There was a lighted course near LAX that was par 66 or something. But it was difficult to see drives and wedges as they would get over the lights and you had to guess where they came down. Putting was also very hard to judge.
That was my first experience with golf in California. I remember it being difficult to follow the ball.
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Knights Play Golf Center between Pinehurst and Raleigh. It’s 27 hole par 3 course and driving range. We used to make 10p tee times, load up as much beer as possible and play 27 in a little over 2 hours. Holes range from 80-200 yards and they only light the greens. You could hit a great shot you think on the 200 yard hole and never find it. I played about 50 rounds here in grad school when time was limited but could play at night so it worked.
Bluejack has lights on their 9 hole par 3 course. All the holes are under 100 yards. I’ve only seen it during the day.
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Highland Greens Golf Course in Prospect, CT is a par 3 nine holer with distances between 115 yards and 190 yards. Opened in 1967 it had lights on opening day and has operated continuously through today. Surprisingly they would let kids play without their parents in the 1970’s at night and despite quite a few plays I don’t ever remember playing it in the daytime.
Tim, that is a different course than the much older (?) Highland 9-holer near Shelton, correct?
Regardless, your last note (kids in 70s) registers with me. Going beyond your comment, I continually recall how at very young (8,9) ages, I and my cohorts roamed and did things up to a 1/2 mile away from our homes, went to stores and arcades and specifically a thin lot-sized driving range/mini-golf center across a main drag from our neighborhood. The degree of autonomy I had at those elementary school ages in the 1970s in toto was ridiculous, perhaps even illegal by today's social standards. All I was responsible for was ON TIME, hands-washed dinner time appearance (6:30 pm) and a 9:30 pm bed time. Other than those and planned family events, I was largely left alone and just asked where I was going. Humorously, "grounded" for misbehavior really had a literal meaning... you felt like a plane, stuck in the bay, who would; rather be flying off as you usually did.
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In the 70’s, Tall Pines was an 18 hole full length course in South Jersey that had 9 lit holes. I think Ron Jaworsky bought it and changed its name. Not sure of its present status.
This topic was discussed years ago. Another SJ course used to be lighted before it went under.
https://salemcountryclubnj.com/about-us/ (https://salemcountryclubnj.com/about-us/)
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There was one PGA Tour tournament played partly under lights. In happened early in 1969, after the brief split between the tour players and the PGA of America. The players formed the Association of Professional Golfers and put together a schedule, mostly from the old tour. There was also the Alameda County Open, slated to go against the Los Angeles Open. The two sides settled before the season and the schedule went back to normal, but Alameda was contracted so it was played as a regular tour stop coinciding with the LA Open.
It was played at Sunol Valley Golf Club, on the Palm Course, in Sunol, Calif. The course were lighted by a $325,000 installation attached to palm trees (so the reports had it), which came in handy when a weather delay pushed back the second round. The delayed tee times meant a large chunk of players would finish under the lights. Dick Lotz was the winner. He used his feet to figure out how putts sloped in the gloaming.
Said Bill Ogden, "Generally a late starter can see every little spike mark and heel print on the greens. At night you can't see them."
Sunol Valley closed early in 2016, victim of rising costs and fewer rounds played.
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An interesting note from the course that I grew up playing. An illuminated golf course in 1933 outside of Chicago:
At the time of the 1933 World's Fair, the Century of Progress Exposition, the Wilmette Golf Club became one of its great off-site attractions. A 27-hole facility at the time, the Wilmette Golf Club included a nine-hole "illuminated" golf course making it one of the only, if not THE only, golf course in the world that could be played under the stars
The nine-hole West Wilmette Illuminated GC opened Aug. 1, 1931, adjacent to Wilmette GC. It cost $32,000 to light the nine (and $11,000 to build the course), with holes ranging from 75 to 165 yards. Nine 75-foot towers did the job of putting 125,000 watts on 18 acres. The power bill was $20 a night.
It remained open at least through 1933.
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There was a lighted course near LAX that was par 66 or something. But it was difficult to see drives and wedges as they would get over the lights and you had to guess where they came down. Putting was also very hard to judge.
That was my first experience with golf in California. I remember it being difficult to follow the ball.
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That would be Westchester, built during the Teflon Age of Architecture. A public 18 hole exec course where many a west side Los Angelino's plays their first full 18 holes. (my kids did) It's good it was your first Cali Golf experience because there was mostly upside to follow. The floodlight spread has gaps absolutely making the ball hard to follow. It has 8 par threes... yes 8 (Eight). Greens are surprisingly not too bad, and it is a blast. We head there after late meetings knowing we will finish if we can get off before sunset. Functions very much like a halfway house for golfers coming from, and returning to cold climates. You can get from LAX Luggage to the first tee in about 8 minutes with the right Lyft Driver. When commuting, I have frequently grabbed a golf fix before returning to windchill. You will see lots of people careen into the parking lot in a rental car, jump out, and start yanking clubs out of travel bags to get in a round before a meeting.
It was only 15 holes having lost 3 to airport imminent domain for a giant radar dome. They finally got to build the final three holes about 8 years ago (not too badly designed) and expanded to 18. When/if you play there, Westchester feels like a TopGolf. You will find a mix of low handicap target shooting skins gamers... a movie star or producer or two, and a busload of Cheerleaders from UCLA taking golf lessons for team bonding. Beware however, due to light ordinances and potential fines, the lights will shut off promptly at 22:00:01, regardless who is on the course and where you are. They do not care and it gets dark as hell. Jason, to answer ordinance question, regardless of the light ordinances, it prints money from 05:30 to 22:00.