Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ira Fishman on June 27, 2019, 07:34:41 PM
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I am trying to make sure that the Five Hour Round, phony presentation of the scorecard/tees/ball marker, and the apparent fact that they give the Caddies (who were quite good) talking points did not overly influence my assessment of the course.
Here is my take:
1 and 2–fine.
3-7–very good stretch of variety, shot options, and interesting greens. 7 is best hole on course.
8–weak attempt at quirk.
9 and 10–fine.
11–good hole particularly bunker placements.
12–quite beautiful and well above average Par 5.
13 and 14–average at best.
15–a reach at trying to be special.
16–fine.
17–strong hole with challenge off tee and into green.
18–not bad but out of character with rest of course.
We enjoyed the round and thought KB to be a good course, but just do not understand why it gets such accolades or high rankings.
Ira
PS Bar scores high on comfort and quality of service.
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Ira
It seems you aren't high on two par 3s, 8 & 13. Why?
Ciao
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Put me in this same boat. Give me Crail or Kilspindie every damn day and twice on Sunday. While it was gorgeous to look at I never got remotely close to the same feeling at KB as I did at the aforementioned courses. It felt like “American golf in Scotland”. I think the walks between green and tees was what automatically made me turn my nose, even though that’s not really fair I guess....?
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Sean,
I thought the bunker on 8 plus the size and contour of green were triple downs on the concept of an older, quirky hole. Any one of the features would have been sufficient.
Re 13, I have played short length, bigger green than it looks hole on many courses. They just happened to be inland and not in Scotland.
Btw, I made a Par on 8 and Birdie on 13 so an adverse result is not affecting my view.
Ira
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Put me in this same boat. Give me Crail or Kilspindie every damn day and twice on Sunday. While it was gorgeous to look at I never got remotely close to the same feeling at KB as I did at the aforementioned courses. It felt like “American golf in Scotland”. I think the walks between green and tees was what automatically made me turn my nose, even though that’s not really fair I guess....?
John,
We played Kilspindie and Crail on same trip as KB and agree with you completely. And as I posted on another thread, Crail even more scenic than KB. The best holes at Kilspindie are the equal of the best at KB although the weaker at KB better than the weaker at Kilspindie.
Ira
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You guys have such good memories compared to me as I can't remember specific holes numbers at all, maybe playing a great hole, but not the number. Wonder if some of you actually take notes as I definitely don't have that good of a memory.
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You guys have such good memories compared to me as I can't remember specific holes numbers at all, maybe playing a great hole, but not the number. Wonder if some of you actually take notes as I definitely don't have that good of a memory.
I'm with you, Jeff. It seems to take me a few rounds to remember holes like Ira.
Which is why I've now started booking two rounds on the best course of my golf trips. For example, when I finally get over to play Royal Dornoch, I'm definitely playing it twice.
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Sean,
I thought the bunker on 8 plus the size and contour of green were triple downs on the concept of an older, quirky hole. Any one of the features would have been sufficient.
Re 13, I have played short length, bigger green than it looks hole on many courses. They just happened to be inland and not in Scotland.
Btw, I made a Par on 8 and Birdie on 13 so an adverse result is not affecting my view.
Ira
Ira
I guess I don't understand why your concerns are a problem. For me, both holes are essentially about controlling ball flight as they are downhill and likely with wind about. While downhill, each is in a different direction so it is likely a different type of shot will be called for.
There are several top notch holes imo, 4-6 and 13. Unlike comparisons to the smaller courses of Scotland, there isn't anything close to a throw-away hole, although I am not so keen on 15. The variety of holes which can be played with a running shot and the odd aerial approach green make for good diversity. There is a very good mix of par lengths. The connection between the different levels (shelves) is done very well. There aren't any silly uphill or downhill holes to make the transitions. The greens are good without being stupid in the way some modern greens can be. I don't care for the long walk to the 12th tee, but it does open an area with what I think are two very good holes in 12 & 13. Finally, the course is stunning. It is hard for me to argue that Kingsbarns is anything but great. That said, I too would prefer to play some older courses such as Crail or Kilspindie, but there is no way I would say they are better than Kingsbarns.
I don't envision going back to Kingsbarns because its too expensive, but hey, even the Crails of Scotland are becoming expensive. Saturday and Sunday I will play Llandrindod Wells and Kington and get considerable change back compared to Crail...and Crail isn't as good as Kington.
Ciao
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Sean,
I am not sure we disagree all that much. I agree with the strong holes noted except for 13 which is not a bad hole, but just one that would be considered routine on a US inland course. And I added 3 and 7 as very good holes. I agree that because it does not have any really weak holes, that KB is better overall than Kilspindie or Crail. I found them more enjoyable because they felt (and are) less manufactured plus playing slowly is just not for me.
KB is a very good course. I just don’t get why other than for the views of the sea, people seem to love it so much.
Ira
PS In terms of remembering holes, not surprisingly as I get older, I cannot do so as well anymore. My souvenir purchase is a course guide. And we played NB twice which is a really good idea when visiting an area for perhaps the only time.
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I’m a huge fan of KB for all the positives listed here. The only negative in my book is price. Since I haven’t played any of the local courses listed above aside from TOC and New, I’d probably play any of the locals first before playing KB again - variety and cost matters. But after I’d played all the other locals I don’t expect any of them to beat (or equal?) KB.
PS - #7 seems to be a love/hate - cool/gimmicky hole: i’m In the former camp. Never heard someone say #8 is gimmicky, seemed a great hole and different ask, especially when the wind is up.
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I stayed away initially from commenting about price because if the market bears it, good for the course. I happily paid it. But KB is twice the cost of North Berwick, more than twice of Elie, three times the cost of Crail, and more than four times the cost of Kilspindie.
For what little it is worth, Castle Stuart was my least favorite of the eight courses we played on our trip last year by a fair margin. KB is better than CS because the holes not on the sea are stronger.
Ira
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Kingsbarns is more of a good story than a great course. I played it because Huntley spoke the place up. I feel like I won the lottery because they were out of caddies when our group arrived.
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This is an interesting thread for me: not because I've played KB or any of the courses mentioned, but because it brings to the fore the reality that a golf course serves (or at least can serve) a number of different functions, and fill a number of disparate needs. Very briefly and tangentially: the one 'great course' I've played is Crystal Downs. Truth be told: for me, as a 'one off' experience and bucket list architectural gem it is not a "10" -- but as a course to play every day as a member, it is.
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Peter,
In the vein of courses and trips serving different purposes, I am quite glad that I went to Bandon. The golf is wonderful, and to John's point, it makes for good stories in the bar. But I doubt I will lug myself back there. Yet I happily will travel again to the UK and Ireland. It is not because the golf is better overall, but it just makes for a more well rounded experience.
Ira
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I wouldn't have played KB if it were up to me, didn't think it was my vibe, largely based on what I read here. But my friends insisted and I'm glad they did. It was the reverse of the recent "expectations" thread, which focused on disappointed rather than exceeded. It's still not why I go to Scotland, but if you're there, I wouldn't miss it unless the math doesn't work for you, on principle or on budget.
My experience is not as wide as most here, but #12 is one of my favorite holes anywhere. #13 is a wind hole. I thought it was good, in sideways rain, especially coming off #12 where you have so many options. On #13, you have to throw something up in the air, at least with my limited skills. We had to start the ball over death left to avoid death right. I like the element of chance in that. And in a match, it's helpful to the player(s) that just lost #12 to see the first balls up. And it's an entertaining way to get up the hill to #14. I get the architectural criticism of #18, but as a match play hole, it's pretty good do-or-die finish especially in driving wind with wet grips.
Our KB caddies were great, real pros. I've had better playing experiences in Scotland with member caddies, and I love that best . . . when it works. But hard to argue that you're not getting value at KB.
Clubhouse was great, and we were welcomed, not just tolerated. Can't say that everywhere.
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Bernie value? It’s £100 more than the Old Course, I played it once last year for £25 and happy to have done so, I certainly wouldn’t pay more than TOC.
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Mark, I struggle with that. I didn't get on the Old Course, so that particular value comparison was not relevant to me. Is it worth 75 more than Carnoustie? I don't know. Glad I got to see them both. And I'm not even sure I'd play KB again even if fortune smiles and I get back that way. There's a bunch of other courses there that I've yet to see and want to, with TOC obviously top of list. But having played KB, to Ira's question, I think I understand why it's as highly regarded as it is, though I also understand objections to price and vibe.
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Mark, on that trip best value for me, pound for pound, was Jubilee at 80.
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For me the New is a better course than the Jubilee but the price point is the same.
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1. I had not seen Bernie Bell post prior to this thread, so welcome, Bernie. I saw the "Newbie" badge by your name, which confirmed we had not crossed digital paths before.
2. I would travel far and wide for an Ira Fishman thread. They are infrequent and tasking; the former a negative/positive, and the later, a positive. To have an insightful, Peter (that's a lotta) Palotta comment included, makes this fun and informative. The golf photographers I know, gush over two holes at Crystal Downs, but that's it. I'm interested to find out one day, if the course has those two "money shots," and just great golf the rest of the way.
3. My Scottish golf experience, on my honeymoon so long ago (so near in my heart) is restricted to New, then Old, in St.A. Both were worth every penny I paid in 1993, and would probably be today. I need to link up with Jeff Warne one day soon, and do one of his dutiful tours of the kingdom's courses. I know that I could do so on my own, meeting up with you guys, but I like Jeff a lot.
4. When shooting a golf course photograph, ironically, it is often the non-golf elements that make the difference. If I show you a great golf hole with grey sky, blue sky, blue sky with puffy clouds, you will likely rank them in reverse order. Such is golf for the one-offers. If KB is more destination than daily club, its purpose and mantra might be, kill it with the views, and with the topographic tumbles.
5. Many folks don't often take loopers, so to get a) links golf; b) scottish caddies; c) authentic tales (albeit cloaked talking points) is a immeasurable treat for them, their own, experiential, great triumvirate. We had 2 caddies of that type at Whistling Straits a decade back. One was a legit caddie, and made the experience so worthwhile. The other was a struggling competitive pro, earning seed money for another go, and he was a fool.
By the way, Bill Murray makes nice golf shirts, and you can get 15% off your first order by visiting his site.
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Ronald,
Many thanks for the compliment. It means a lot.
Bernie,
Yes, welcome.
On the topic of caddies, I know not everyone agrees with me that they do add a positive element especially for Americans on a Links golf adventure. One case in point:
when we played North Berwick, I had the pleasure of drawing Catriona Matthew’s husband as my caddie. Not only is he an excellent player who is a member of NB, but he caddied for her for many years on the LPGA tour so had great stories to share and insights about courses she played. And most importantly, he is just a great guy with a wonderful enthusiasm for the game and life.
Ira
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In Scotland currently and my caddie yesterday was at Kingsbarns for 10 years through 2011. He said that afternoon rounds can now take 5 1/2 hours, which would seriously dampen my enthusiasm. Apparently, the marshalls don’t attempt to speed up play because of how much it costs. I played it in 2005 and it’s an excellent course, but the “Americans playing golf in Scotland” tag applied then just as it does now.
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Thanks Ron and Ira.
The only data point I have is my one round. I’ve no idea how long it took. That’s not really a number, by itself, that matters greatly to me. I know we didn’t wait on a shot, and no one waited on us. Perhaps our day was an aberration because of the challenging weather.
One of the caddies in our group was an old timer who had caddied or was caddying for Sam Torrance on the senior tour. He was terrific.
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played it, but never going back, forced and fake :(
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played it, but never going back, forced and fake :(
I doubt I will ever return to Kingsbarns. However, I find the fake argument a bit hollow. Many if not most of the best courses in the world are so called fake if what you mean by fake is a course has to be obviously built. Forced? Maybe, but anymore forced than 150 bunkers at Muirfield or drive over fake sheds on TOC 17?
Ciao
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played it, but never going back, forced and fake :(
I doubt I will ever return to Kingsbarns. However, I find the fake argument a bit hollow. Many if not most of the best courses in the world are so called fake if what you mean by fake is a course has to be obviously built. Forced? Maybe, but anymore forced than 150 bunkers at Muirfield or drive over fake sheds on TOC 17?
Ciao
whatever :)
it's painfully fake
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It is designed for, and provides, instant gratification. Lots of spectacular views. Lots of dramatic looking shots. It's easy, and clearly designed to be. Has anyone ever had a bad kick at KB? Every time I missed a fairway the ball bounced back towards the fairway. Every tricky to hit green has some way of bringing balls back to it. It's loads of fun. Playing it for the first time (or second) it's a blast.
I wonder though, if I played there frequently, I wouldn't get just a bit bored.
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The OP asked why the course ranks so highly. Many of the responses have nothing to do with golf course architecture. I haven't played any of these other courses, so can't compare based on experience, but in terms of ranking, the authors of Confidential Guide uniformly score KB a cut above Elie and Gullane #1, and substantially above Crail, Leven, Lundin, Panmure, Dunbar, Kilspindie and Longnidry. Are they wrong? I understand why many would choose to play any or all of these courses before KB. As I said, I likely would have done the same if it were up to me. My understanding is dim and limited, but all I'm saying is that it does not puzzle me why CG and others rate KB as they do.
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The OP asked why the course ranks so highly. Many of the responses have nothing to do with golf course architecture. I haven't played any of these other courses, so can't compare based on experience, but in terms of ranking, the authors of Confidential Guide uniformly score KB a cut above Elie and Gullane #1, and substantially above Crail, Leven, Lundin, Panmure, Dunbar, Kilspindie and Longnidry. Are they wrong? I understand why many would choose to play any or all of these courses before KB. As I said, I likely would have done the same if it were up to me. My understanding is dim and limited, but all I'm saying is that it does not puzzle me why CG and others rate KB as they do.
No, they are not wrong. There aren't any absolutes here but I don't think anyone is arguing that KB isn't a better course than those others. Whether it's worth the absurd green fee and whether the whole performance around a game there are different questions. I enjoyed my one game there a lot. Helped to a great extent by the way the course was designed to flatter my game (who doesn't like to score well) but I wouldn't dream of paying the green fee I paid then (which started with a 1) let alone the current green fee for a second go.
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If you were on the moon would you pay to spend time on a moon simulator? Maybe only if the real moon wasn't moony enough for you.
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Is Renaissance Club a moon simulator?
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Is Renaissance Club a moon simulator?
Exactly, according to the front page of their web site they are refining the Scottish experience. They are making the moon better which if you have ever been to Disney is the goal of most simulations.
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I should cross NGLA off my bucket list then?
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I should cross NGLA off my bucket list then?
Why? NGLA is a perfect example of early elitist American golf. I would suggest it to anyone with a bucket list.
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Touche. Should have known better than to try and match wit with you, especially because I don't actually have a bucket list, unless a bunch of regions in GB&I I'd still like to get to counts. My point was, aren't the US architects generally held out here as best of the Golden Age consciously out to imitate/refine what they considered the best of Scotland? Isn't that what the template holes are? If a tourist's rule is, I haven't come to Fife to play anything "newer" than New, that's fine, I might agree, but I'm not sure it's got anything to do with course architecture. And if you want to avoid elitist clubs, that's a different screen to run, and great courses will fall out on both sides of the pond. To me, knocking KB as gauche has more than a whiff of elitism.
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Crail, Leven>>>>>KB anyday
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I played KB on my own fruition knowing full well what I was getting myself into. I don't regret the choice. I am curious about these views I hear about. I don't recall them being all that great as it seems to sit on a boring stretch of water. Is there even a decent sized rock like at North Berwick? I also don't seem to recall a nice costal view like on the Jubilee. What did I miss?