Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: David_Tepper on June 26, 2019, 08:36:07 PM
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The Golf Channel's Golf's Greatest Rounds is showing the final round of the 1984 Open at St. Andrews tonite.
The show is running right now, from 5pm to 7pm west coast time and then again from 9pm to 11pm.
Seve, Watson, Langer, Faldo, Couples, persimmon woods, forged blades, balata balls......what more could you ask for? ;)
In between the 2 shows is a feature show on the big 5: Seve, Faldo, Langer, Woosnam & Lyle.
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DT -
There's an essay there to be written, I think.
"When Golf was a Game"
The theme/theory: in order for golf to be monetized and corporatized to the degree that the '80s (ie "Wall Street") demanded, technology, television, and the powers-that-be conspired to turn a 'game' into a 'sport' -- and not that many years later, with the transformation nearly complete, the casualties included many of those who once played the game the best: Faldo, Seve, and Norman among them.
But even if the theory has merit, on 2nd thought it's probably better left to a podcast/the Fried Egg to explore.
(Peter - the 80s are calling: they want their 'essay' back)
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I don't believe that those golfers ever considered golf to be a "game." It will always be a game to the non-professional, even those who compete at the highest amateur level.
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R -
I'd agree: they didn't consider it a game, but (in retrospect) a 'game' it certainly was -- played by Seve (but others too) with a focus on imaginative and creative shotmaking that the equipment demanded/allowed and that the architecture encouraged.
I think.
That's the theory.
As I say, I'll leave it to others...
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DT -
"When Golf was a Game"
The theme/theory: in order for golf to be monetized and corporatized to the degree that the '80s (ie "Wall Street") demanded, technology, television, and the powers-that-be conspired to turn a 'game' into a 'sport' -- and not that many years later, with the transformation nearly complete, the casualties included many of those who once played the game the best: Faldo, Seve, and Norman among them.
I don't believe any of that for a moment. Everything in society has gone in that direction in the last 30+ years - golf is no different from anything else. And surely Norman was one of the forerunners of the corporatization of golf - he is responsible for some of it and benefitted from it more than anyone else from that era - he was a beneficiary, the opposite of a casualty. You could argue that Arnie, Jack and Mark McCormack were the leaders of the corporatization and perhaps they are the co-conspirators of which you speak.
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When money gets involved and folks are undertaking it for a living the game/sport/pastime/hobby element in a game/sport/pastime/hobby tends to decline, frequently quite rapidly and significantly. And the more money involved the more rapid and significant is the change.
atb
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Wow, that was a joy to watch again all these years later.
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Wow, that was a joy to watch again all these years later.
+1
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Wow, that was a joy to watch again all these years later.
+1
Just the views alone made it worth watching -- showed just how unique TOC may be as a major championship course. Seve's reaction after holing the putt on 18 is one of the great 18th-green expressions of joy seen in a major. A real pleasure to watch.
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As someone who has enthusiastically made the jump to collecting and playing vintage equipment, it refreshing to watch the two best players in the game at the time (Ballesteros and Watson) playing classic persimmon woods and blade irons on that links turf. I believe Seve was playing a Macgregor M85 driver from the mid-50s.
It is amazing to think, compared to today, that players routinely used to game clubs that were 30+ years old. When Fred Couples won the Masters in 1992, he had an M85 in the bag that was almost 40 years old.
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As someone who has enthusiastically made the jump to collecting and playing vintage equipment, it refreshing to watch the two best players in the game at the time (Ballesteros and Watson) playing classic persimmon woods and blade irons on that links turf. I believe Seve was playing a Macgregor M85 driver from the mid-50s.
It is amazing to think, compared to today, that players routinely used to game clubs that were 30+ years old. When Fred Couples won the Masters in 1992, he had an M85 in the bag that was almost 40 years old.
+1
I also would dispute that players didn't swing hard then(oversized heads are often blamed/credited for the aggressive swings of today)
Seve and Watson were ripping at it-Johnny Miller threw everything he had at it
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Bernhard Langer also swing/swang/swung at the ball harder than he does today.
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And he & they made perfect contact a remarkably high percentage of the time. And when they *didn't* they knew right away, and we all knew, and the consequences were very real -- but without (as at St. Andrews) the architecture having to be marred unrecognizably in order to 'test' the best in the world.
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And he & they made perfect contact a remarkably high percentage of the time. And when they *didn't* they knew right away, and we all knew, and the consequences were very real -- but without (as at St. Andrews) the architecture having to be marred unrecognizably in order to 'test' the best in the world.
Perfectly stated, Peter.
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And he & they made perfect contact a remarkably high percentage of the time. And when they *didn't* they knew right away, and we all knew, and the consequences were very real -- but without (as at St. Andrews) the architecture having to be marred unrecognizably in order to 'test' the best in the world.
Perfectly stated, Peter.
aim small-miss small
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As someone who has enthusiastically made the jump to collecting and playing vintage equipment, it refreshing to watch the two best players in the game at the time (Ballesteros and Watson) playing classic persimmon woods and blade irons on that links turf. I believe Seve was playing a Macgregor M85 driver from the mid-50s.
It is amazing to think, compared to today, that players routinely used to game clubs that were 30+ years old. When Fred Couples won the Masters in 1992, he had an M85 in the bag that was almost 40 years old.
+1
I also would dispute that players didn't swing hard then(oversized heads are often blamed/credited for the aggressive swings of today)
Seve and Watson were ripping at it-Johnny Miller threw everything he had at it
The sound of balata on persimmon is beautiful.
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I stopped and watched for about 45 min. Terrific stuff. Course looked ragged.
I never realized how pure Langer's swing was back then. He struck it so well.
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He had a DELCO boy on his bag "Nick DePaul"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNR6LygNnI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNR6LygNnI)
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I stopped and watched for about 45 min. Terrific stuff. Course looked ragged.
If the course looked “ragged” then it was wonderfully so. It appeared perfect from my point of view.
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The sound of balata on persimmon is beautiful.
Just saw this on Twitter - turn up the volume:
https://twitter.com/ArronOberholser/status/1144790359853211649 (https://twitter.com/ArronOberholser/status/1144790359853211649)
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Sweet!
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The sound of balata on persimmon is beautiful.
Just saw this on Twitter - turn up the volume:
https://twitter.com/ArronOberholser/status/1144790359853211649 (https://twitter.com/ArronOberholser/status/1144790359853211649)
It’s just perfect.
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Speaking of Seve, it's not persimmon, but I like the sound of these shots even better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT4o7cZnZ8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT4o7cZnZ8s)
Perfect clicks, and his tempo looks great. The best part is the way he knocks the grass off the clubface with his shoe after each shot.
I feel like a better player just for having watched that.
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As Jeff said so well: aim small-miss small. Or as an 80 year old Byron Nelson answered when asked how much better his 18 win season would've been if he'd been using modern equipment: 'Oh, not so different -- the sweet spot was the same then as it is now'. Strangely, I can hit a draw with my persimmon driver, but haven't hit one with my modern driver in at least a decade! Fades come equally easy -- though with persimmon I'd swear that a fade *sounds* different than a draw.
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Joel -
Nice find. Great clip.
DT
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Take that 6 minutes, which is great, obviously, and substitute this shot:
https://youtu.be/w81j8dXzHQI (https://youtu.be/w81j8dXzHQI)
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Yes, I remember it well........although don't remember Faldo or Couples being a factor :-[ . Running between the two groups you had a sense that it was all about Watson and Seve, or at least that was who had the vast bulk of the support. That said, if Langer could have sank a few putts of 10 to 15 feet rather than lagging them he probably of won. Between the 3 he was clearly the best tee to green on the day.
BTW, was that the last Open at St Andrews where you had the free for all cavalry charge up the 18th ? I also took part in a charge at a subsequent Open, vaulting the Swilken in the process (those were the days !) but pretty sure they held you back to give the players a head start ;D
Niall