Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on January 28, 2019, 09:41:25 AM
-
This is an old fashion boxing match where each hole can be awarded a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 7 points per round. It will be an 18 hole round with each hole being discussed individually on a day to day basis. Each hole can be played from whatever distance you choose as that is the beauty of both courses. I just finished 5 rounds at Harbour Town and have not been to Ballyneal in a few years so I may need some help along the way. I also would appreciate any photographic evidence available considering I forgot my camera at home in my drone box.
Dye vs Doak. May the most subtle win.
Hole 1. A couple of short par 4's to get the round started. But that is not all there is with any starting round. You can't get to the first tee without getting to the course and going through the gate. Each in a beautiful setting. One public, one private. Both in the center of golfing nirvanas for given classes of golfers. All that said I'll call the weigh in a draw and not let it influence the scoring.
Sadly, one reviewed by Ran while the other is not. Wow, Ran loves Ballyneal. http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/ballyneal/
Ok back to the holes. After I hit the showers that is. Ran's review was a gut shot but my substantial gut still tells me it is a fair fight.
-
Dye was given the initial routing at Harbour Town (Original routing by Cobb) and brilliantly changed the last three golf holes to finish on Calibogue Sound. Harbour Town also had a housing component. Ballyneal is on 300 acres of undisturbed sand dunes. Thinking four feet of elevation change at Harbour Town compared to approximately 100 at Ballyneal. Sounds fair to me.
-
Wow John, not sure you could have picked two more different courses to compare. I've not played Ballyneal so can't participate, but with all the love here on GCA I feel like I have. Width & minimalism vs. tightness and sharp angles.
Sorry to hear about your camera. I know how much you love pictures of courses. There are a few good Twitter feeds I can recommend if you aren't aware ;)
-
Dye was given the initial routing at Harbour Town (Original routing by Cobb) and brilliantly changed the last three golf holes to finish on Calibogue Sound. Harbour Town also had a housing component. Ballyneal is on 300 acres of undisturbed sand dunes. Thinking four feet of elevation change at Harbour Town compared to approximately 100 at Ballyneal. Sounds fair to me.
Tim,
I'm not going to hold it against Ballyneal just because Harbour Town is an easier walk.
-
Wow John, not sure you could have picked two more different courses to compare. I've not played Ballyneal so can't participate, but with all the love here on GCA I feel like I have. Width & minimalism vs. tightness and sharp angles.
Sorry to hear about your camera. I know how much you love pictures of courses. There are a few good Twitter feeds I can recommend if you aren't aware ;)
Ryan,
Funny, both courses are right around 800 miles from home. Once again I will not be giving points to Harbour Town because it is public access. You need to get to Ballyneal. The generosity of the membership can not be outpaced. Expect an invite soon.
-
I played Harbour Town on Jan 4th.
Aside of the hole by hole, Harbour Town had a solid set of 3s but the overall impression was that it is extremely tight off mosts tees.
I also threw up in my mouth when the fairways came to the end with 4 inch rough around 130 yards from the green, then back to fairway again from around 40 yards out from the surfaces. Why not just have one cut all the way to the green?
Overall, perfectly enjoyable, but I wouldn't drop trips to other places to visit Harbour Town.
-
A better contest would be HT vs Long Cove.
-
Hole 1.
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's. Both holes require a nice little drive to the right center of the fairway with death left. Ballyneal offers more width as HT requires a bit of precision or a hybrid off the tee. Both holes have equally interesting greens. I really enjoy the front to back nature of HT and have not had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal since the regrassing. Is round one a draw, I think not.
I'm giving the first hole to Harbour Town because of the fronting bunker protecting a tucked pin. If you don't have that shot run the ball onto the right side with a low draw nine iron or your club of choice. The approach to the first green at HT is one of the finest thought over strength short approaches I have ever played.
Hole 1, round 1. HT 10 Ballyneal 8
-
I succumbed to the hype of Harbor Town in 2006 and paid $250 for a 5 hour cart-balling round.
Never again.
Spent a 3-day weekend at Ballyneal in September of 2008.
Ballyneal wins 10 and 9.
If the match was in CO, I would finish the back nine gladly.
If the match was in SC, I would walk in after the 10th hole.... ;D
I know it's perhaps just me, but I think Harbor Town is in the "Top 10 Most Over-Rated Courses" in the US.
-
A better contest would be HT vs Long Cove.
I think I know which one wins the fun factor.
-
I succumbed to the hype of Harbor Town in 2006 and paid $250 for a 5 hour cart-balling round.
Never again.
Spent a 3-day weekend at Ballyneal in September of 2008.
Ballyneal wins 10 and 9.
If the match was in CO, I would finish the back nine gladly.
If the match was in SC, I would walk in after the 10th hole.... ;D
I know it's perhaps just me, but I think Harbor Town is in the "Top 10 Most Over-Rated Courses" in the US.
Don't tell me about money. I had my own room in this house for a week and played HT four rounds for $1,500 in shirt sleeve weather while the rest of the country froze. We didn't sniff another group during 6 straight days of golf. Let's try to keep it to the architecture.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/17-Marsh-Dr-Hilton-Head-Island,-SC,-29928_rb/
-
I succumbed to the hype of Harbor Town in 2006 and paid $250 for a 5 hour cart-balling round.
Never again.
Spent a 3-day weekend at Ballyneal in September of 2008.
Ballyneal wins 10 and 9.
If the match was in CO, I would finish the back nine gladly.
If the match was in SC, I would walk in after the 10th hole.... ;D
I know it's perhaps just me, but I think Harbor Town is in the "Top 10 Most Over-Rated Courses" in the US.
Don't tell me about money. I had my own room in this house for a week and played HT four rounds for $1,500 in shirt sleeve weather while the rest of the country froze. We didn't sniff another group during 6 straight days of golf. Let's try to keep it to the architecture.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/17-Marsh-Dr-Hilton-Head-Island,-SC,-29928_rb/ (https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/17-Marsh-Dr-Hilton-Head-Island,-SC,-29928_rb/)
$$ was about 4 words of my post, JK.
There have been other threads started like this that are quickly trashed.
Comparing a SC resort course to a Colorado private course is just incongruous and open to pretty much anything you want.
Hey, let's compare Seminole to Cabot!
Wait, how about Streamsong Red to Olympic Lake?
Or, let's really get down on it and have a "match" between TPC Sawgrass and The Loop....!!.... ;D
-
Ian,
This is a hole by hole match which allows comparisons between wildly varying courses. Both courses can be enjoyed from any distance by any level golfer. Both courses are dependent on the weather to provide a challenge. Each course was designed by one of the great architects of our time early in his career. I think there are more similarities than disparities.
If we all just take a deep breath and relax this can lead to interesting discussion.
-
Recap:
Hole 1, round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 8
Scores are a boxing format. Maximum 10, minimum 7. It's a long 18 rounds. Round 2 tomorrow, a couple of nice short par 5's.
-
While this seemed absurd at first, comparing any two courses in this format is silly any way you slice it, so why not?! Having played Ballyneal, but not HT, i'll be an interested observer.
P.S. JK how do you put the 1st hole at HT 10-8 over BN? Rounds scored with 8 are usually only reserved for getting knocked down or getting the hell beat out of you. Having played Ballyneal I don't see any "8" holes out there, regardless of what you compare it to.
-
Have not played either but have a pressing question. I'll be at CCC in March for a weekend, planning on 5 rounds over 3 days. One of my favorite places to play golf.
Worth it to take one of those rounds over to Harbor Town?
-
Kalen,
Both holes are easy pars. To get a chance for a kick in birdie to the tucked pin at HT you need to place your drive in an approximate 10 square yd area. The sophistication of the angle required for pure excellence is missing at Ballyneal. It's a sweet science.
-
Comparing a SC resort course to a Colorado private course is just incongruous and open to pretty much anything you want.
Hey, let's compare Seminole to Cabot!
Wait, how about Streamsong Red to Olympic Lake?
Or, let's really get down on it and have a "match" between TPC Sawgrass and The Loop....!!.... ;D
The founder of this website likes to compare golf courses in a hole by hole match play comparison. But I'd imagine he tires of the sidebars as I know JK will before this exercise reaches the O-bunker or the E-green.
-
It's a sweet science.
Nicely done.
-
Have not played either but have a pressing question. I'll be at CCC in March for a weekend, planning on 5 rounds over 3 days. One of my favorite places to play golf.
Worth it to take one of those rounds over to Harbor Town?
Not if you are playing alone. Now if you are swimming in cash and want to take the wife for a nice cart pushing stroll and dinner you got something going. There is a nice hotel right off the first tee with an excellent Sunday brunch.
You are talking about spending four hours in a car when you are already in a world class location. Anything else?
-
Have not played either but have a pressing question. I'll be at CCC in March for a weekend, planning on 5 rounds over 3 days. One of my favorite places to play golf.
Worth it to take one of those rounds over to Harbor Town?
Not if you are playing alone. Now if you are swimming in cash and want to take the wife for a nice cart pushing stroll and dinner you got something going. There is a nice hotel right off the first tee with an excellent Sunday brunch.
You are talking about spending four hours in a car when you are already in a world class location. Anything else?
apologies if unclear; CCC = Chechessee Creek Club.
-
Sorry, I played CCC on this trip. Absolutely, go to Harbour Town. They compliment each other very well.
-
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's.
Right there you've already shown you missed the ethos of Ballyneal.
The beauty of the place is that there are no parameters. The first hole at BN, like every other hole, can be stretched as far or moved up as short as you want it to be.
Its part of the beauty of the place.
-
Note: I will be using the yardages for Ballyneal as outlined in Ran's review.
-
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's.
Right there you've already shown you missed the ethos of Ballyneal.
...or he just doesn't care for it in that context...
-
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's.
Right there you've already shown you missed the ethos of Ballyneal.
...or he just doesn't care for it in that context...
His loss.
-
Sven,
What is gained architecturally on the first hole at Ballyneal by moving up beyond the approximate 380 yd range? When you leave the putting green and meet your caddies and or buddies shouldn't there be a general area where you congregate? If nothing else, for the safety of the other participants. I have found the ethos of Ballyneal to be more centered on camaraderie than tee markers.
-
Sorry, I played CCC on this trip. Absolutely, go to Harbour Town. They compliment each other very well.
I think you mean complement -- in what ways? Very different courses each with a distinct ambience. Perhaps that's your point.
-
Craig,
We spoke highly of you during our round. Congrats on such a fine course. Yes a sophisticated private course that does complement a national resort that hosts a televised event. It would probably surprise most people to learn that Harbour Town is much easier to score on than Chechessee. Though I would consider neither penal. Having only played Chechessee once as a paid observer during a celebrity death match I can't really speak to its architecture. But isn't that the way of all great courses?
-
John:
How many times have you played Ballyneal?
There is a distinct advantage for driving left at the first hole, because the green falls from back right to front left. [It's a pretty significant slope; the last time I played there, someone at the back right of the green putted clear off the front and down into the hollow left of the greenside bunker.] Drive it left and you're playing into the slope and can get at most pins pretty well, but it's particularly hard to drive it left from the back tee, diagonally over trouble. Drive it right and you can't see the green very well, and even from right-center any shot moving right to left will likely get away from you.
I'm a fan of Harbour Town, which is the first great course I ever saw. But if you're going to breeze over all of the above and just declare the other hole wins 10-8, this won't be very enlightening.
-
Hole 1.
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's. Both holes require a nice little drive to the right center of the fairway with death left. Ballyneal offers more width as HT requires a bit of precision or a hybrid off the tee. Both holes have equally interesting greens. I really enjoy the front to back nature of HT and have not had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal since the regrassing. Is round one a draw, I think not.
Right center is most certainly not the preferred tee shot at Ballyneal, as it doesn't take much to have a blind shot, or at a minimum, be faced with the knob in the right front of the green to deal with. Also the right to left slope of the green, coupled with firm and fast conditions, will leave a much more difficult approach from anywhere right of center. Much more to the hole than what one might think upon first glance.
-
Tom,
I'm sure I have played a dozen or so rounds at Ballyneal but it has been a few years. I also recall either me or one of my playing partners putting off the first green. I need someone to remind me of the subtle features of the course. Without that I am basing my opinion of the holes at Ballyneal on Ran's review and my fading memories. Thanks.
I also didn't want to do Ballyneal a disservice by saying that it doesn't matter where you drive the ball. I believe the course is better than that.
Have you played Harbour Town since a storm removed a ton of trees? Over the five rounds I didn't have a single shot without a path to the green. I also recall less than a dozed shots off the pine straw. This is a personal thing for me but both courses play equally wide. Thus the scores on my card are mine and mine alone.
-
I also would appreciate any photographic evidence available considering I forgot my camera at home in my drone box.
Sorry. I couldn't help myself.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7865/39944115873_8b5e9924e9_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7872/46183984884_54f21e7348_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1950/43272774100_5f01724ac1_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4836/46908882551_461e714517_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1954/45085752341_1edffdd85a_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1950/31212570898_e77981e984_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1911/44644056745_e5b058040c_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1939/43272546580_07e166c794_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/44365401844_5648d27f9c_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1958/45507864532_4b0e44e32c_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7867/45994401085_ac7939a986_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1927/45507863672_ee2ce7ca10_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7859/46183988604_171e12c9a7_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1975/43272551350_58e424a307_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4838/46909022611_c925022496_c.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1962/43272559030_12b0a44cba_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7853/46183990804_fbee723ea6_c.jpg)
No photos of Harbour Town, sadly.
-
Jon,
Beautiful. Are any of those of the first hole?
-
Hole 1.
Both holes are 380 yd par 4's. Both holes require a nice little drive to the right center of the fairway with death left. Ballyneal offers more width as HT requires a bit of precision or a hybrid off the tee. Both holes have equally interesting greens. I really enjoy the front to back nature of HT and have not had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal since the regrassing. Is round one a draw, I think not.
Right center is most certainly not the preferred tee shot at Ballyneal, as it doesn't take much to have a blind shot, or at a minimum, be faced with the knob in the right front of the green to deal with. Also the right to left slope of the green, coupled with firm and fast conditions, will leave a much more difficult approach from anywhere right of center. Much more to the hole than what one might think upon first glance.
Scott,
Upon reviewing Ran's write up coupled with your excellent observation I stand corrected. Under further consideration I have no choice but to adjust my card.
Hole 1, round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
-
Jon,
Beautiful. Are any of those of the first hole?
At a quick glance, these are the best I have of the first.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7816/33033992348_b77061e0cd_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7898/46857144382_9b2f31d256_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4856/46857035452_4510bfaa66_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4874/46857144022_b4d940b88f_c.jpg)
-
Jon,
Thanks. I intend on doing one hole per day. Your contribution would be invaluable.
-
I was doing a little research on the upcoming rounds and noticed a flaw in this system. Starting the third day we would no longer be matching holes of similar par. But who would have thought, both courses are par 71 with two par 5's on the front and one on the back. Problem solved. Giving Ballyneal its rightful place as current champion we will continue the match based the fantastic routing provided by Tom Doak. Tomorrow we have the bout between two excellent par 5's and in the third round it will be Ballyneal's par three 3rd hole against HT's 4th. The remaining progression should be self explanatory.
Sleep well all my fellow HT lovers cause you got a tough fight tomorrow.
-
Never been to HT, and all I've seen are trees, trees and more trees. The opposite of which we will find at BN. I don't have the pictures like Jon does, but can certainly provide a bit of insight as to the nuances that might not be so noticeable upon first glance. The bunkers are nasty, and you certainly don't want to miss long or right (as Jon's last picture will show). Great starter hole that's probably more difficult than meets the eye.
-
Jon,
Thanks. I intend on doing one hole per day. Your contribution would be invaluable.
Happy to help out with photos if I can keep up with the match.
-
I was doing a little research on the upcoming rounds and noticed a flaw in this system. Starting the third day we would no longer be matching holes of similar par. But who would have thought, both courses are par 71 with two par 5's on the front and one on the back. Problem solved. Giving Ballyneal its rightful place as current champion we will continue the match based the fantastic routing provided by Tom Doak. Tomorrow we have the bout between two excellent par 5's and in the third round it will be Ballyneal's par three 3rd hole against HT's 4th. The remaining progression should be self explanatory.
I'm glad you are doing it that way. Comparing par-3 holes to par-5 holes is pretty weird, and if you stick to the numbers these two courses would require a lot of those comparisons. However by doing it this way, you're going to be "off" with the numbers for most of the par-4's, which will also be weird.
-
John’s Rivera v Sand Hills thread was (to me) and all-timer, so I’m hopeful that folks who’ve played both will chime in. I think it’s interesting and entertaining comparing two disparate courses. I’ll state my bias: I liked HT but didn’t think it was a $250 course...why I can’t say. I’m a wild driver of the ball but don’t think I ever hit it OB, but did find some hazards. I did (and do) love the idea of hitting if off-center and being stuck playing a low slinging hook/slice around a big tree to a small green - I love recover shots. I just love putting more...
-
I'm going to sit this one out. Plus, I haven't played Harbour Town.
I enjoy the challenges that a narrow, tree-lined course offers. On a windy, firm course like Ballyneal, one is compelled to alter the trajectory and curvature of shots to combat the wind. But a tree-lined course also dictates that a player curve the ball, and sometimes increase or decrease the trajectory of a shot, in order to miss the trees. Successfully pulling off a shot which avoids the trees and advances the ball can be very rewarding.
I will follow along.
-
I recognize that in its day was a great step forward in gca but, and I know this might be blasphemy to some, I doubt HT would receive anywhere near the recognition today that it received when it was built. The extremely tight tree lined fairways with houses all over the place just doesn't cut it for me. You want to see great low country golf go to Chechessee Creek Club. I would put Long Cove way ahead of Harbour Town. To even suggest that somehow it is in the same league as Ballyneal is silly. The land alone makes the comparison unfair.
-
Hmmm, I suppose if Harbour Town scrapped tee markers it would win this match, as so many opine how “special” lack of markers makes a place. Newsflash-you can play from any tees on any course. I have played both courses multiple times and I look forward to a great discussion, thanks John!
-
Hmmm, I suppose if Harbour Town scrapped tee markers it would win this match, as so many opine how “special” lack of markers makes a place. Newsflash-you can play from any tees on any course. I have played both courses multiple times and I look forward to a great discussion, thanks John!
If HT didn't have tee markers it would still lose in my book. But this is John's match. If I were a betting man I'd wager he has HT winning 10 rounds to 8. To me the match was over when I checked the wind.
-
Thanks Sven; Ballyneal will probably win, but it will probably be closer than many here would think. I’m just tired of everyone waxing poetic about no tee markers, that said many here must love Double Eagle!
Perhaps HT should explore a reversible routing.
-
When you're in a big fight that time on the stool between rounds 1 and 2 is most likely your last chance to look over at the champ and wonder what the hell you got yourself into. Most people want to dismiss this match because HT is flat and Ballyneal is anything but. There was talk of ethos. There was mention of housing. I get that and should address my personal situation. Harbour Town represents family to me. It's home to an annual event where as a quasi-outsider I witness a group of men return to their post college years where they mostly worked as assistant pros. The caddies are old friends and relatives. I am part of a nostalgic love of man and site that I know those who travel to Ballyneal also feel. It transcends resort vs private. I think we can get past the emotional Goddess tugging at our Tommy Johns and look at each design shot by shot.
A special thanks to all my old friends that contributed during round 1. Ball State finally quit asking me to send them more money, or maybe I moved and didn't send them my forwarding address. Round 2 coming up.
-
Round 2 is remarkably two short par 5's of similar yardage. If you go to Ran's review he writes a full paragraph on the land between the 1st and 2nd tee at Ballyneal. Ran doesn't waste words so why should I? What I personally remember most about the tee shot on 2 is that it feels like you are on top of the world hitting to an infinity fairway. To this day I remember that feeling. That is not the feeling you get on your tee shot at HT. I played the 2nd at HT 6 times last week and came away with one thought, "texture". While the land is undeniably flat the texture of the land varies sometimes from shot to shot. You have the fairway, rough, pine straw, waste areas and bunkers. Sometimes on the same hole. So we have a battle of infinite space against the intimacy of texture. Interesting.
I'm going to have to be reminded of the second at Ballyneal beyond the tee shot. I seem to recall a straight short par five receptive to second shots. A truly fantastic example of power golf that can be enjoyed by those whose power is fading away with age. A great hole that I wish I could play time and time again.
The second hole at HT is interesting to me partly because we had just finished a draw friendly approach to be faced with a mandatory fade. One of the beauties of trees is that they are not afraid to dictate shot shape. I was fortunate enough to have two eagle putts in my 6 attempts but failed to make birdie as the pin was tucked behind the guarding right bunker. Plus I hit poor putts. Lag putting matters damnit, especially in a 72 hole tournament.
Not to overthink either hole you just kinda hit the ball find it and hit it again. Not uncommon with reachable par 5's. All that being said, time to fill out the card.
Round 2, hole 2 HT 8 Ballyneal 10
Surprised? My gut tells me that if I remember the feeling I had on the 2nd tee after all these years Ballyneal must have one hell of a hole on its hands.
Recap:
Round 1, hole 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Round 2, hole 2 HT 8 Ballyneal 10
-
I succumbed to the hype of Harbor Town in 2006 and paid $250 for a 5 hour cart-balling round.
I believe I paid $250 to play Ballyneal-$150 plus $100 caddie. Price and length of round are not german to architecture.
-
Why would anyone take a cart at Harbour Town? It is as walkable as any great course in the country and without question the most walkable course on tour.
-
John:
The 2nd hole at Ballyneal is a long par-4. You must have played it into the wind! After the semi-blind tee shot, it's a difficult approach past a bunker 25 yards short on the left, to a long plateau green with a shoulder pushing its way into the right middle.
The par-5's are the 4th, 8th, and 16th. [I guess the 2nd as a par-5 would also have made for a logical progession!]
-
JK,
No disrespect here buddy, but maybe you need to take a trip back out to Ballyneal before you continue with this one. You forgot a lot of features on the 1st hole and thought #2 was a par 5...
P.S. What i recall the most from #2 was if you didn't hit the speed slot on the fairway for the extra roll you're chances of getting on in reg were very slim. But the green surrounds were interesting because you could hit a low running shot that would roll seemingly forever and onto the green.
-
I thought par didn't matter to you guys. It's a 490 yd hole for God's sake.
-
As a point of information I played the 2nd at Harbour Town from 471, 471, 424, 424, 383 and 495 yds in that order. I should apologize for calling either hole a par 5. My mistake on Ballyneal.
-
One thing that fascinates me is how last year at The Heritage -12 was the winning score when the pros are playing a 502 par 5. You can click on anyones name and see what they scored on each hole for each round. Bryson DeChambeau made 8 on this hole in the third round. He made 3 in the second round. He lost the tournament by one shot. If you want to go deep you can even pull up the play-by-play.
https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2018/rbc-heritage/leaderboard.html
-
Uneven lies abound at the 2nd at Ballyneal, making for a difficult second shot unless your drive has found the bottom of the hill. The bunker short and left of the green is a menace when trying to run a second shot onto the green. There is also a substantial mound that carries into the putting surface a bit on the right, with the green typically feeding balls to the left. Any pin on the right half of the green is very difficult to get to.
-
Personally, I find this post a ridiculous exercise. But then, I find course ranking a joke as well.
But I have an idea! How about we have a contest comparing, and ranking on a scale of 1-10....head to head...body part by body part...Olivia Wilde v Charlize Theron? We can find out who the real "10" is!
[/size][/color]
[/size]Lets start with legs! I give this to Theron 10-7. Those long legs are awesome![/color]
-
This is actually a difficult but legitimate exercise. To quote myself: "So we have a battle of infinite space against the intimacy of texture." I'm sorry that when you put infinity under a microscope it is not as compelling as when you first breath it in. There is something here at Harbour Town that took me multiple plays over a series of days to find and I was hoping to get some help along the way finding out why.
Why did Byrson DeChambeau, the anointed genius of golf, make so many doubles along the way to losing by a shot. Not to mention the crazy eight on a 502 yd par 5 that he just eagled the day before. Maybe Pete Dye knows a little something about architecture that is worth discovering.
I screwed up just like yesterday and as I will tomorrow. Upon further review I reserve my right to change my card for a hole on the given day that hole is under scrutiny. I like short par 5's more that long par 4's. I truly cherish every eagle putt as it may be my last.
Round 2, Hole 2 HT 9 Ballyneal 10
Recap:
Hole 1, Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Hole 2, Round 2 HT 9 Ballyneal 10
-
RIP Bunker. I just learned that Ballyneal's beloved cat Bunker is presumed dead. My heartfelt condolences. As a cat lover myself I can only assure you that kitty heaven doesn't have a wait list.
-
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4881/33045390108_bae275e87c_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4891/46006398325_ac06949a12_z.jpg)
Gonna miss that little guy.
-
He was the goat. Got any pics of the hole?
-
He was the goat. Got any pics of the hole?
Ballyneal No. 2
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4888/33045565408_602d619c7e_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4857/46921032941_7f174834d1_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4862/46196181604_0e606658dd_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7869/31979817247_6bc235910c_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4862/46006620585_e910c6a134_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7878/39956197453_0e44747a6b_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4859/46868762882_d647c33ee8_c.jpg)
-
From the above pictures I'm just not seeing it. I do not recall what appears to be a forced carry after the drive.
-
John,
Take a look at this aerial. If you go all the way left on your drive you could have a partially forced carry, so its at least plausible.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Holyoke,+CO+80734/@40.4252374,-102.272834,480m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8773e253634e9fa7:0xf2414de1026d8857!8m2!3d40.5844369!4d-102.3024103
-
Kalen,
Thank you as that map will be very useful in the future. Since I last played Ballyneal my go to shot from over 180 yds is the running ground fade. I'm surprised of the importance of keeping my drive right on this hole. I'm glad I gave it a 10.
-
I thought I would post the following schedule of events for those people who may be getting bored and want to check in later for their favorite hole. As I indicated earlier Ballyneal has earned reigning champion status and will therefore be played 1-18. I will attempt to sequence the holes at Harbour Town in similar "weight classes". Thank you for your patience.
1/28 B1 vs HT1
1/29 B2 vs HT2
1/30 B3 vs HT4
1/31 B4 vs HT5
2/1 B5 vs HT7
2/2 B6 vs HT3
2/3 B7 vs HT9
2/4 B8 vs HT8
2/5 B9 vs HT6
Super Bowl Sunday is a fitting day for the 7th at Ballyneal vs the 9th at Harbour Town. Two of the finest short par 4's I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Spoiler alert: I may test out some theories on MySpace.
-
I’ve played Harbortown and have contemplated a trip to Ballyneal but never have I debated a choice BETWEEN a trip a to Hilton Head and one to Ballyneal, that’s why I think this is a useless, if not uninteresting comparison.
-
James,
Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?
-
James,
Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?
Because one course is as flat as a pancake in a forest, while the other course has perhaps the ideal golf topography.Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.
-
It's insulting to Doak to say that Ballyneal was easier to design than Harbour Town because of the land. Maybe you have a point, take Texas Tech...Please.
-
James,
Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?
Ok that point I understand and appreciate. On that basis, wouldn’t a better comparison be Riverfront Golf Club. Similar piece of land. Similar region. Somewhat similar business model.
Those are the factors I think make for a good comparison. I think I understand your motive in comparing two architects doing a visibility design for the first time where their choices could be evaluated, but the land is so dissaimilar as to make the comparison less valuable.
I would think Pacific Dunes vs. Kiawah Ocean would be better to feature similar situations.
-
It's insulting to Doak to say that Ballyneal was easier to design than Harbour Town because of the land. Maybe you have a point, take Texas Tech...Please.
I don't think it is insulting. I think it is common sense that all things being equal, a better piece of land while yield a better course. I don't think Tom would ever believe he could design a better course in a swamp than he could at Ballyneal. The starting line of each course does not start at the same spot. At Ballyneal you start further down the line than at Harbour Town. You can still trip while running, but if you run a good race you will end up 1st, as expected.
-
James,
Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?
I would think Pacific Dunes vs. Kiawah Ocean would be better to feature similar situations.
And even then, Pacific Dunes is the way better site. But sure, it's a way better comparison than Harbour Town!
-
Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.
Matt:
I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am. Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me. I owe him my entire career.
Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras. One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course. It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.
So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.
I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think. But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for. And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.
Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder. But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that? This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right? The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play. Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?
-
Back on the stool between rounds wondering why. I played 99 holes at Harbour Town last week and Ballyneal is one of my favorite courses in the world. So why not? Wipe my browel with the towel and continue on. As I have mentioned earlier today we will be staging the first two par 3's of each course up against each other. Some background that may help you understand where I personally am coming from. During our four day tournament we offered $100 prize for each closest to the pin on the 16 par 3's played. It was an eight man Major outing and I came away with 5 wins. In other words, I think par 3's are the most oversimplified example of architecture as practiced today. You put the ball on a tee, with a level lie and whack a stationary ball at a non moving target. Why even bother half the time.
Including the non-tournament rounds we played the 4th at HT at 165, 165, 155, 155, 165 and 187 yds. Ran has the 3rd at Ballyneal at 145 yds. Ran has an excellent description of the hole in his review that I would recommend reading. One aspect of the 4th at HT that I just realized today is that the hole is the mirror image of the 14th. I think that is really cute but also interesting because I found the water on 14 but not on the 4th. My scared guided miss always seems to be right. And 14 is of course later in the round. I did however get CTP's on both holes.
Only because of my personal preferences I prefer the first par 3 at HT over the 3rd at Ballyneal because of the penal nature of the water hazard. The pin was always left flirting with the water so the smart play was taking the water out of play and carding a par. The 3rd at Ballyneal is what I would call postcard architecture.
Round 3, 1st Par 3's HT 9 Ballyneal 7
Recap:
Hole 1 Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Hole 2, Round 2 HT 9 Ballyneal 10
Hole 3 Round 3 HT 9 Ballyneal 7
Just cause I love pain I would love to share this photo tour of Harbour Town.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892)
-
Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.
Matt:
I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am. Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me. I owe him my entire career.
Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras. One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course. It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.
So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.
I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think. But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for. And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.
Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder. But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that? This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right? The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play. Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?
I didn't want anyone to miss this post that got stuck on the last page. Thanks Tom.
-
...getting drawn in. Just sending along encouragement.
Comparing two very different courses has the potential for great discussion. The comments intent on discouraging the comparison, and derailing the conversation, are very disappointing. There are lots of people here who have played Ballyneal; they can fill in the details of how to play BN, and what to look for. You've had the rare opportunity to play a top resort course multiple times, and sharing your observations about Harbour Town are valuable insight that few if any here can offer. A few years ago, I played Pebble Beach three times in a week. It was terrific fun.
To my friends in the Midwest, be safe and warm these coming few days.
The other, earnest JK
-
This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right? The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play. Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?
Tom,
The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.
Now that I'm older I tend to play where I am, not where I wish I could be. Harbour Town is a $360 first class ticket to an airport 8 miles from the first tee away. Ballyneal is in a past world that I doubt I will ever visit again. The quality of the courses have zero bearing on which I will play next year.
John Kirk,
Come on, I really could use your opinions. I was thinking today how much different this thread would be if I had played 99 holes at Ballyneal last week.
-
Let me think about it for a couple days. I enjoy this sort of thing, but have grown hypersensitive to comments that intend to discourage or derail frank commentary.
It would be nice if others would contribute.
I consider the 3rd at Ballyneal the least interesting hole to play, partly because it's a par 3, but also because it's easy to make par, birdie is difficult, and if you make bogey, you screwed up. Now that our greens are maintained at a faster speed, this hole has a little more bite than it used to. If the pin is in the back half, you really don't want to miss short, because the first putt will be tough.
Compared to your description of HT #4, BN #3 strategy is more dependent on hole location, as opposed to the constant threat of the HT #4 water hazard, which will be the primary concern every time. When the pin is on the right side, I'll try to hit my one yard high fade, because it will land soft and not roll much. Very hard to make birdie on right pins. If the pin is front left, you must try to hit it in the front left bowl, which often yields a short putt for birdie. If the pin is back left, coming up short in the front left bowl results in a 3 putt bogey.
The green sits on a natural bowl, and is perhaps the easiest green to hit in regulation on the course. It's always a short iron shot, usually a 9 iron or pitching wedge for me.
Ben Littman's description of Harbour Town is a fine summary:
"A lot has been written about Harbour Town, so I'll keep my comments to a minimum. I was shocked at how wide the course is (it was also much greener/better-conditioned than the other courses we played, but I chalk that up to preparation for the Tour event). People have said that the narrow view from the tee down the 1st fairway is a harbinger of things to come, but I actually thought the opposite: the 1st fairway is by far the narrowest on the course (and it's not actually that narrow, as the trees give way to open spaces left and especially right after 175 yards or so). Every tee shot that follows feels much more open than the 1st one. (The two other tee shots I would classify as narrow--9 and 13--are rightly so, as they are short par-4s that require only an iron off the tee.) I typically hate road crossings and visible houses on courses, but neither--and there are many of both--bothered me at Harbour Town. In fact, I was surprised at how enchantingly beautiful the course is--the towering pines lining many fairways reminding me somewhat of what I see at Augusta on TV every year (minus, among other things, the elevation changes). I especially liked the tree-dotted waste areas on the corners of numerous fairways; they are not only pleasing to the eye, but playable. People say that the greens, though distinctively small, are flat and boring, but the green complexes as a whole (comprising the greens, their shapes, the surrounding bunkers, and, of course, the many overhanging trees) are some of the best in the world. The course's principal design features--u-shaped greens with intruding knobs/fringes and hidden bunkers--are very distinctive and very repetitive (for better or worse, I'm still not sure). To me, the course's tightness exists not off the tee but in the approaches to the greens, as many greens have either two low/wide trees or one tall/narrow tree guarding the front. Those green-guarding trees, and the u-shaped greens, are the course's main defenses to scoring--and what some people might deem unfair. But seeming unfairness on the first playing should yield to strategy on the second and subsequent playings, as those defenses simply ask the player to think and, as at any great course, optimize angles of attack. In no way did I feel that the course truly begins after the tee shot on 16 (16, to me, is overrated as a hole) or even back at 13 (though I concede that the stretch from 13-18 is the best on the course). The front nine is also a delight to play, with the stretch from 4-8 rivaling 13-18 for enjoyment and variety. In short, count me a fan and someone who can't wait to return and play Harbour Town many more times."
-
Tom,
The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.
John:
My comment was meant to steer the conversation back to comparing the two courses, instead of Matt K. opining which one was harder to design because of the land the two sit on.
But, since you've now told us what the thread is NOT about, can you be more specific about what it IS about?
Your comparison of the first par-3 holes makes it sound like for you it's about "shot values" as a GOLF DIGEST panelist would say. You'll get no argument from me that the 4th at Harbour Town is HARDER than the 3rd at Ballyneal, because there's a water hazard smack up against the collar. But if that's really your ultimate sign of quality, then you might as well just dismiss all my courses, because I have no interest in building a hole like that. Any halfway smart player is just going to take the water out of play . . . the only tactics involved is understanding how far away from the water you personally have to aim to do that. At least the hole at Ballyneal encourages you to look at the hole location before deciding where to aim.
P.S. Isn't there a 10-point must system for boxing scoring? Why 9-7 and not 10-8?
-
In two plays at Ballyneal. Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss. If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from. I missed long once and short right the other. My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me. I tried both his read and mine. That's a great hole! I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots. Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening.
Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.
-
John,
I am following this thread with interest. I have not participated because I am an unrepentant Ballyneal homer, as you well know. I really loved playing Harbour Town and can see why it has such a vaulted position in the history of the game, but I am not sure I can impartially judge the two courses, so much is my love for Ballyneal. John Kirk is much better at being impartial than I am. I will be following along though, and as a side note, I can definitely understand your mixing Hole 2 up with a par 5. As you said, it is 495 yards. I know you likely played the tips on most, if not all holes, and it is a big hole from back there, especially if it is into the wind.
-
Can't add a single thought, save to say that by the first post I was already hopeful a terrific thread would follow, in this context:
The commonalities in playing experiences at two distinct golf course designs separated in time by some 4 decades and in space by strikingly disparate topographies and in ethos (and here's the rub -- at least apparently) by the gulf between pre-renaissance & post renaissance philosophies; and then the subsequent questions: are these commonalities surprising or instead are they inevitable (in quality architecture)? And, in either case, do even sophisticated golfers have the eyes to see them and game enough to actually experience these commonalities in the playing?
-
Tom,
The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.
John:
My comment was meant to steer the conversation back to comparing the two courses, instead of Matt K. opining which one was harder to design because of the land the two sit on.
But, since you've now told us what the thread is NOT about, can you be more specific about what it IS about?
Your comparison of the first par-3 holes makes it sound like for you it's about "shot values" as a GOLF DIGEST panelist would say. You'll get no argument from me that the 4th at Harbour Town is HARDER than the 3rd at Ballyneal, because there's a water hazard smack up against the collar. But if that's really your ultimate sign of quality, then you might as well just dismiss all my courses, because I have no interest in building a hole like that. Any halfway smart player is just going to take the water out of play . . . the only tactics involved is understanding how far away from the water you personally have to aim to do that. At least the hole at Ballyneal encourages you to look at the hole location before deciding where to aim.
P.S. Isn't there a 10-point must system for boxing scoring? Why 9-7 and not 10-8?
Tom,
From what I understand the 10 point must system is somewhat modern. Even so if the referee or me calls a foul a round can 9-7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_boxing
I didn't care for Harbour Town all that much after one play last year and fell in love with it during extended play this year. This thread is a discovery for me why and how that happens compared to a Ballyneal that I fell in love with at first sight.
Don't tell me that you don't build penal par 3's. That long ass hole at Dismal Red is one of the most difficult I have ever played. As far as Digest goes I know exactly what "shot values" are and they do go a long way on what I love about some courses. As you may imagine, I know a ton of things that I don't have the ability to explain. Speaking of that my memory of the 3rd hole at Ballyneal is a feeling of relief as I approached the tee. But that goes into routing.
Please don't think it is my intention to declare that the pin position at the 4th at HT was not important. Remember, we played from 155 to 187 yds. I can pin hunt with a 7 iron and stop the ball before it finds the water behind the green. Not so much with a 5 wood from 187. Guys like me make a living because most golfers are stupid. I'm surprised you give credit to the halfway smart ones. I won one of my CTP's from 28 ft. most likely because I was the only one to play away from the pin.
-
In two plays at Ballyneal. Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss. If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from. I missed long once and short right the other. My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me. I tried both his read and mine. That's a great hole! I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots. Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening.
Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.
Dan,
Is the 3rd at Ballyneal a better design than any of the holes on the Mulligan? At HT I putted just about every shot within 50 yds of the green where I was not faced by a forced carry. I don't think that you want to sell Dye short on short game options. He invented the genre.
-
John,
I am following this thread with interest. I have not participated because I am an unrepentant Ballyneal homer, as you well know. I really loved playing Harbour Town and can see why it has such a vaulted position in the history of the game, but I am not sure I can impartially judge the two courses, so much is my love for Ballyneal. John Kirk is much better at being impartial than I am. I will be following along though, and as a side note, I can definitely understand your mixing Hole 2 up with a par 5. As you said, it is 495 yards. I know you likely played the tips on most, if not all holes, and it is a big hole from back there, especially if it is into the wind.
Stephen,
Thanks. This thread can only be improved with the opinions of more OG's like you. Ballyneal is so much more than I can describe through my faded memories.
-
In two plays at Ballyneal. Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss. If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from. I missed long once and short right the other. My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me. I tried both his read and mine. That's a great hole! I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots. Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening.
Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.
Dan,
Is the 3rd at Ballyneal a better design than any of the holes on the Mulligan? At HT I putted just about every shot within 50 yds of the green where I was not faced by a forced carry. I don't think that you want to sell Dye short on short game options. He invented the genre.
I can't speak for Dan, but I have always felt that the 3rd at Ballyneal is the one par 3 on the main course that best encompasses the ethos of the Mulligan Course. Not only in that they are related in length, but it is fun and imaginative and wild, just like so many of the greens on the Mulligan Course are. I wouldn't say that it is better or worse than any of them, but that it is the spirit animal of the holes on the Mulligan.
-
Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.
Matt:
I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am. Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me. I owe him my entire career.
Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras. One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course. It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.
So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.
I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think. But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for. And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.
Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder. But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that? This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right? The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play. Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?
Tom, where did I say I was a bigger fan of Dye than you? I am not picking favourites in this thread. I am just saying that to compare these courses in this exercise seems weird to me. I don't think anyone would ever pick HT in this fight. No need to feel insecure :P
I never said it was easy to build a great course on great land. But I think great land has great potential. I think you and Dye both got the most (or close to it) out of your properties...just one of those properties was way better...therefore, the course is better. I don't think I am saying anything profound or controversial here. Everyone please carry on, ignore me!
-
A view from the stool after round 3 is a treat as the circus outside the ring is starting to develop. If you have ever been fortunate enough to attend a great fight the action outside the ring is often the real show. What a great thread about water abutting a green, thanks everyone. Even Tommy N is contributing in his own way in what I can only assume was a classic troll. Could end up being one of the greats.
Today, being the 4th round and all, we have the 4th at Ballyneal vs the 5th at HT. Ran has given the yardage of the 4th at 560/465 yds. We played the 5th at HT at 497, 497, 485, 485, 427 and 511 yds. From what I understand the 4th at BN is played from an elevated tee which would make the yardages almost identical.
I'm going to need some help with BN on this one because as soon as I saw the picture of the 4th on Ran's review I can not separate the hole from Tom's 12th at Dismal River Red. I have great feelings about the hole, seem to recall hitting one of the longest drives of my life with a good friends persimmon driver. Honestly, why didn't Taylor Made put the screws on the new M6 in the center of the club face. Used to love hitting one on the screws.
The 5th at HT has so many great details I reference you to photo tour below. This Litman dude does some great work.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892)
I think I started out the week failing to draw the ball over the left bunker and ended the week thanking the right bunker for catching my ball before it left the course. The 5th at HT is the only hole I birdied twice in the week. I never experienced the donut bunker but watched many who did. Almost any hole that you play from 427 yds to 511 yds in the same week is going to have stories.
Could someone please give me some insight into the 4th at BN before I fill out my card? Thank you.
-
It's not that I can't help by filling in details about Ballyneal for the thread. I just don't want to be recruited into providing them on every hole, as I have something else I'm working on, and I find it harder these days to devote a great deal of energy to writing.
The 4th hole has three primary tee boxes, about 560, 545 and 475 yards. Among the groups I typically play in, the 545 box is most commonly used, and from that box my chances to "go for the green in two" are now pretty rare. The tee shot is significantly downhill, the biggest downhill slope on the course, so the 475 box is definitely a reachable par 5 for many players. The 560 box sits just 25 or so yards left of the 545 box, but the angle of the tee shot is changed enough to make it one of the most difficult tee shots, with a prohibitively long carry for most players. From the two back tee boxes, a common mistake is to aim too far left and pull the drive into the native. I'd estimate 10-20% of drives end up in the native, but if solidly struck, 80-90% are found and playable.
The fairway is undulating with relatively long amplitude rolls, slightly uphill for the second shot, and then steeply uphill for the last 30-40 yards to the green. There's a massive bunker complex on the right side of the fairway which defends attempts to aim second shots towards the right half of the fairway. There is some value aiming your second shot to one side for certain hole locations, especially to the left for short right pins, and right for the middle left pin. Wedged third shot approaches that come up short might roll backward 20-30 yards off the green.
If you do go for the green in two, you can scoot the ball up the slope onto the green with a properly heeled fairway wood shot. The front right greenside bunker is deep, and it's easy to compound problems by misjudging the bunker shot, usually taking too much sand, only to see the ball roll back behind you in the fairway.
The green is large and varied. Downhill putts to front pins are treacherous in fast conditions. Shots played right of the green will trickle down to middle right pins. The contours on this green are somewhat tame.
A complex hole with a fair amount of decision making available. The penalties for trying for the green in two shots tend not to discourage the golfer. I would rather lay up to 90-110 yards rather than face a 40-60 yard shot up the steep hill. Most times I play this hole in a boring fashion: get the drive out there, long iron or fairway wood to the left (safe) side of the fairway, and then let the wedges do the talking. It's a successful strategy.
-
Thanks John, I had a chance to do some additional research about the 4th and was reminded of a few outstanding features. Namely the beautiful hidden bunker that would lead you to believe the routing was reversed. I had remembered the bunker but not exactly on which hole it was replaced. You also can't discount the value of a good ole fashioned reveal. From what I understand, from the 4th tee you get a first real chance to soak in all the flavors the chop hills can offer in a sensory overload often reserved for Sand Hills. It's an important moment in the Ballyneal experience. Then and probably most importantly comes the reveal of the 7th green to break the tranquility of one of the finest strolls in golf. Who needs to see an architects abode along side a fairway when with the same turn of your neck you can see ones life flash before your eyes. Pasa got nothing on this.
Funny thing about par 5's early in a round. You can't win a tournament on one but you can lose it. I don't think either BN or HT should lose this fight on these great par 5's. First draw of the match. 10-10.
Recap:
Hole 1 Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Hole 2, Round 2 HT 9 Ballyneal 10
Hole 3 Round 3 HT 9 Ballyneal 7
Hole 4 Round 4 HT 10 Ballyneal 10
OK, I've just been informed that the hidden bunker is not on the 4th hole at Ballyneal. My mistake, my card remains the same. Any help please?
-
Barney,
The latest aerial on Google Maps certainly shows one, but I had certainly forgot it was there. Given you are looking up to that green from the fairway, I would think its "hidden" from that viewpoint...
P.S. If you look closely, it shows it would certainly be in play for the pin that day!
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ballyneal+Golf+and+Hunt+Club/@40.4236297,-102.2789122,228m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8773ee2ef2ef3d1d:0x45c0ee9cf25d5d9e!8m2!3d40.4193971!4d-102.2627867 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ballyneal+Golf+and+Hunt+Club/@40.4236297,-102.2789122,228m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8773ee2ef2ef3d1d:0x45c0ee9cf25d5d9e!8m2!3d40.4193971!4d-102.2627867)
-
There are a couple of "phony" bunkers on the front nine, little sand features that aren't actually in play. I think there's one up near the 4th tee and one behind the 7th tee. The hidden bunker, which can be seen after walking by, is on the 13th hole. But it's not a very important feature with my game, with maybe 0-1 visits in 100+ plays. If you have to lay up on #13, you stay away.
-
Thanks John, sorry to pull you back in with my mistake. Reveals play little in strategy but go along way to entice return visits. Doak doesn't give himself enough credit for his use of artistry in design. Strategy gets you fat, artistry makes you hungry.
-
Walking back to the stool after round 4 I notice a strange quiet has come over the stadium. Has someone pulled a fire alarm and not told the fighters? It's not uncommon to hear a chorus of boos after a round that was an obvious draw..but silence? Take a spit and move on to what may very well be the finest hole on the course.
Round 5 is our second match up between par 3's. The 5th at Ballyneal vs the 7th at HT. Ballyneal plays from approximately 165 yds with the ability for varying yardages depending on the mentos of your ethos. During our time at HT we played the 7th at 160, 160, 148, 148, 160 and 172 yds. The 7th at HT doesn't vary much within those yardages as you have to hit it high and just carry the front bunker. As a matter of fact all the fun in the hole is found when you miss the green. What are you going to do, miss the green on purpose?
As I implied above it is my opinion that the 5th hole at Ballyneal is the finest design on the course and also my favorite hole. The simplicity of the single front bunker amid somewhat contained views brings about a serenity rare in adult life. I can only compare it to when I was taking my licensing exam and one of 7 questions I had to answer was an example in my book I brought along. There is joy sometimes in being given the answer to a complicated question. Ballyneal 5th is a warm blanket of strategy in a cold storm. I love the hole.
Why am I in my corner and where is my stool, why is this man counting with his fingers in my face. HT is leading on the judges cards but everyone is on their feet as I'm getting fingers flashing in front of my 4...5...6...
-
John,
Once again, i'm not following on the scoring system component. You put hole 4 at 10-10. Never in all my life of watching thousands of boxing and UFC rounds have I ever seen a round scored like this.
I can only imagine if it ever happened, both guys would be absolutely wailing on each other toe-to-toe for the entire round, (without a knockdown) and the judges decided they couldn't possibly not give a 10 to both guys. If this did happen, the crowd would be on their feet, cheering wildly, and begging for more.
Did you mean to score that 8-8?
-
...7...8. Ding, ding, ding....Ballyneal wins by TKO!!!
In a twist of fate I'm asked what am I doing after the fight. I'm going to Disney World!
How about a game anytime this Sunday thru Tuesday? My contact information is easily available through this site and on MySpace.
-
It occurred to me the left greenside bunker on Ballyneal's 5th hole acts strategically like a water hazard. It is almost always a one shot penalty, and sometimes two shots, to hit it in the bunker when the hole is left. On average, best to aim for the center of the green and take your chances for a two putt par.
Ballyneal may be the most dissected and discussed course on GCA over the last fifteen years. Many people have tired of the subject. There are other excellent modern courses that deserve the same careful analysis that Ballyneal has received, with a chance to begin new debates about daring or controversial features.
Speaking for myself, I would have liked to see a comparison between Harbour Town and Streamsong (Black), which I have not played, but I remember as one of your favorites in the past few years.
-
James,
Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?
I’m not saying it’s not a valid topic, I just disagree with the value of a comparison. What is the practical value of a judgment that either is x amount better than the other? Both are really good examples of design on the land they worked with. But I have a hard time drawing meaningful conclusions from comparing sites that are so different. Ballyneal vs. Sand Hills? Yes. To me, that is like comparing a course in Dubai with one in Florida. Both are warm climates but that’s where the similarities end.
I don’t draw much value out of the marginal differences in evaluation. For me, golf architecture is very much about the best uses of a particular site, rather than comparing different canvas, [/size][size=78%] [/size]
-
It was an unfortunate early knockout. I can't name another course in the world with a better 9th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 18th holes than at Harbour Town. As many of you have said, it's best not to leave these things to the judges.
-
If I replied to every thread that fails to pique my interest around here, just to share that I don't care about the thread, I would never leave my desk. Personally, I just ignore threads if I think they're stupid. I highly recommend it.
I wasn't ignoring this one.
-
If I replied to every thread that fails to pique my interest around here, just to share that I don't care about the thread, I would never leave my desk.
This is because you have a brain.
-
After you climb up the ladder of time,
The Lord God is near.
Face-to-face in the vastness of space,
Your words disappear.
And you feel like you’re swimming in an ocean of love,
And the current is strong,
But all that remains when you try to explain,
Is a fragment of song.
Lord, is it Be Bop a Lula? Or Ooh Papa Doo?
Lord, Be Bop a Lula? Or Ooh Papa Doo?
Be Bop a Lula? Or Ooh Papa Doo?
Be Bop a Lula? Or Ooh Papa Doo?
-- Paul Simon